Having kids makes some people fulfilled
On Jul 7, 2010, at 5:59 PM, William T Goodall wrote: [Re: Dave] I think, from conversations and emails, that you and I are closer in fundamental values, even when we differ from time to time on how best to achieve goals we mutually agree upon. That's cruel. Dave doesn't deserve to tainted with your poisonous agenda. Thanks, William, but I am aligned with many parts of Dan's "agenda" (as you call it), and if I need to defend myself, I'll do it myself. I think you've seen me do so in the past. You and I have not always seen eye to eye, so your coming to my aid seems a bit off-kilter, perhaps even disingenuous? Not so much meant to support me as to take a dig at Dan. Anyway, I had time to read the full NYMag article this evening, and the author is very aware of the fact that it's not a simple matter of "pleasurable activities" vs. parenting: "I think this boils down to a philosophical question, rather than a psychological one," says Gilovich. "Should you value moment-to-moment happiness more than retrospective evaluations of your life?" He says he has no answer for this, but the example he offers suggests a bias. He recalls watching TV with his children at three in the morning when they were sick. "I wouldn't have said it was too fun at the time," he says. "But now I look back on it and say, 'Ah, remember the time we used to wake up and watch cartoons?'" The very things that in the moment dampen our moods can later be sources of intense gratification, nostalgia, delight. It's a lovely magic trick of the memory, this gilding of hard times. Perhaps it's just the necessary alchemy we need to keep the species going. But for parents, this sleight of the mind and spell on the heart is the very definition of enchantment. Having a child diagnosed with brain cancer, watching him recover from the surgery and each round of brutal chemotherapy, then seeing him die is no one's idea of "moment-to-moment happiness", but it forged a bond between my wife and me that is far stronger than the silly hearts-and-flowers bullshit that advertises itself as love. Not so very long after Kevin's death — about the time, in fact, that it takes for a child to gestate — Peggy and I decided to have a child again, knowing how badly wrong it can go. That child is now 13 years old, and while there's no pleasure in fighting him about brushing his teeth or cleaning his room or washing his hair or doing his homework, the reward — which I cannot quantify any better than the Cornell psychologist quoted above — is worth far more than any Rockwellian "goin' down t' the fishin' hole" portrait of fatherhood. Dave ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Having kids makes you unhappy
William T Goodall wrote: On 7 Jul 2010, at 22:45, Dan Minette wrote: It all has to do with value systems. I was mentioning William, not as finger pointing, but in recognition that he has a very different set of values than I do. I am an honest person who values truth and logical argument and conducts himself with probity. I suspect that you have a very different set of values than I do. ... You are very close to being a troll. William-- The above seems a bit excessive. I agree, one's motivations for having children tend to be complex. We have three, and I can't easily summarize what we get out of it. By most objective measures of utility, we're coming out behind. And yet, it's very rewarding. I guess I'd boil it down to one sentence as "Children give one's life meaning". Not that I can define "meaning"! ---David A well-designed study would definitely control for wanted versus un-wanted children. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Having kids makes you unhappy
On 7 Jul 2010, at 22:45, Dan Minette wrote: > > It all has to do with value systems. I was mentioning William, not as > finger pointing, but in recognition that he has a very different set of > values than I do. I am an honest person who values truth and logical argument and conducts himself with probity. I suspect that you have a very different set of values than I do. There is ample evidence for this in your postings over they years. Could someone with your intelligence and claimed knowledge of philosophy and theology really be 'strawman Dan' by accident? How can you lose every debate with me without admitting you are wrong? You are very close to being a troll. [Re: Dave] > I think, from conversations and emails, that you and I > are closer in fundamental values, even when we differ from time to time on > how best to achieve goals we mutually agree upon. > That's cruel. Dave doesn't deserve to tainted with your poisonous agenda. -- William T Goodall Mail : w...@wtgab.demon.co.uk Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://blog.williamgoodall.name/ "The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish." - Albert Einstein ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: Having kids makes you unhappy
-Original Message- From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On Behalf Of Charlie Bell Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 5:39 PM To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion Subject: Re: Having kids makes you unhappy On 08/07/2010, at 4:54 AM, Dan Minette wrote: > > It appears that the research suggests something profound, which I think you > allude to. Parenting is for folks who have goals other than their own > pleasure, who are truly willing to put the needs of others above personal > pleasure. >...which makes ond feel worthy, satisfied... happy? >It's impossible to separate self-interest from that too. Frankly, everyone >does things for self-interest, even altruism... Metaphysical presuppositions about experiences you have never had or will ever have stated as a priori truth? My my. See, what's really funny, I _know_ how I felt when I accepted a young homeless woman to stay in my house. Scared and lousy. But, I'm sure you don't believe me, and I know I cannot prove how I feel empirically. Dan M. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Having kids makes you unhappy
On 08/07/2010, at 4:54 AM, Dan Minette wrote: > > It appears that the research suggests something profound, which I think you > allude to. Parenting is for folks who have goals other than their own > pleasure, who are truly willing to put the needs of others above personal > pleasure. ...which makes ond feel worthy, satisfied... happy? It's impossible to separate self-interest from that too. Frankly, everyone does things for self-interest, even altruism... Charlie ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: Having kids makes you unhappy
>As it turns out, I wasn't really pointing the finger (of that last >sentence, anyway) at William, but, as you notice, at the fact that >there's something behind these numbers that suggests that parenting >operates differently from the pursuit of "pleasurable activities". Absolutely. As it turns out, I'm having a very difficult time doing paperwork to keep one of extra daughters eligible to stay in the states while she takes her medcats again and tries again for med. school. Her goal is to be the only cardiologist in Zambia, they lost their only one to death a few years back.not that she'd be upset if someone else became one, but one is much better than zero. >Also as it turns out, I have known that I wanted to be a father >from the time I was about 12 or 13, and even with the death of my >first son, it is still the best thing I've ever done. >And hellz yeah, I could think of plenty more "pleasurable activities" >than parenting, but I wouldn't trade 'em for being a dad. It all has to do with value systems. I was mentioning William, not as finger pointing, but in recognition that he has a very different set of values than I do. I think, from conversations and emails, that you and I are closer in fundamental values, even when we differ from time to time on how best to achieve goals we mutually agree upon. Dan M. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Having kids makes you unhappy
On Jul 7, 2010, at 11:54 AM, Dan Minette wrote: On Jul 7, 2010, at 9:41 AM, William T Goodall wrote: I'm glad I don't have any. Probably best you don't have any for your and for any children's sake, then, eh? Evidently, there's more to life than pleasing yourself. You know I'd agree with you, but after reading William for greater than a decade, I have come to the tentative conclusions that he believes that pleasing himself is all that is important to him. This includes, of course, pleasing others as part of one's own long term interest. It appears that the research suggests something profound, which I think you allude to. Parenting is for folks who have goals other than their own pleasure, who are truly willing to put the needs of others above personal pleasure. As it turns out, I wasn't really pointing the finger (of that last sentence, anyway) at William, but, as you notice, at the fact that there's something behind these numbers that suggests that parenting operates differently from the pursuit of "pleasurable activities". Also as it turns out, I have known that I wanted to be a father from the time I was about 12 or 13, and even with the death of my first son, it is still the best thing I've ever done. And hellz yeah, I could think of plenty more "pleasurable activities" than parenting, but I wouldn't trade 'em for being a dad. Dave ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
RE: Having kids makes you unhappy
-Original Message- From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On Behalf Of Dave Land Sent: Wednesday, July 07, 2010 12:20 PM To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion Subject: Re: Having kids makes you unhappy On Jul 7, 2010, at 9:41 AM, William T Goodall wrote: > I'm glad I don't have any. >Probably best you don't have any for your and for any children's sake, >then, eh? >Evidently, there's more to life than pleasing yourself. You know I'd agree with you, but after reading William for greater than a decade, I have come to the tentative conclusions that he believes that pleasing himself is all that is important to him. This includes, of course, pleasing others as part of one's own long term interest. It appears that the research suggests something profound, which I think you allude to. Parenting is for folks who have goals other than their own pleasure, who are truly willing to put the needs of others above personal pleasure. Dan M. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Having kids makes you unhappy
On Jul 7, 2010, at 9:41 AM, William T Goodall wrote: I'm glad I don't have any. Probably best you don't have any for your and for any children's sake, then, eh? Evidently, there's more to life than pleasing yourself. Dave ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin-l Digest, Vol 18, Issue 4
> Of course not. The present cost and the present market are and > largely government projects. If it helps any, I no longer think power > satellites or serious human presence in space will *ever* happen. What about the Solaren/PG&E partnership -- did that fall through? http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/04/13/MN7S171PSL.DTL http://www.universetoday.com/2009/04/15/major-utility-company-makes-agreement- for-space-based-solar-power/ Shorter: http://tinyurl.com/c9vejg and http://tinyurl.com/dm8z7h > Something that I don't think is as good but is certainly a lot less > expensive has come along. I am now working on that project to the > exclusion of any work on space transportation. Thorium-based nuclear looks extremely interesting to me, but I haven't yet seen any critical commentary. (Is that by any chance...?) Woozle ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Having kids makes you unhappy
>From http://nymag.com/print/?/news/features/67024/ "From the perspective of the species, it’s perfectly unmysterious why people have children. From the perspective of the individual, however, it’s more of a mystery than one might think. Most people assume that having children will make them happier. Yet a wide variety of academic research shows that parents are not happier than their childless peers, and in many cases are less so. This finding is surprisingly consistent, showing up across a range of disciplines. Perhaps the most oft-cited datum comes from a 2004 study by Daniel Kahneman, a Nobel Prize–winning behavioral economist, who surveyed 909 working Texas women and found that child care ranked sixteenth in pleasurability out of nineteen activities. (Among the endeavors they preferred: preparing food, watching TV, exercising, talking on the phone, napping, shopping, housework.) This result also shows up regularly in relationship research, with children invariably reducing marital satisfaction. The economist Andrew Oswald, who’s compared tens of thousands of Britons with children to those without, is at least inclined to view his data in a more positive light: “The broad message is not that children make you less happy; it’s just that children don’t make youmore happy.” That is, he tells me, unless you have more than one. “Then the studies show a more negative impact.” As a rule, most studies show that mothers are less happy than fathers, that single parents are less happy still, that babies and toddlers are the hardest, and that each successive child produces diminishing returns. But some of the studies are grimmer than others. Robin Simon, a sociologist at Wake Forest University, says parents are more depressed than nonparents no matter what their circumstances—whether they’re single or married, whether they have one child or four." I'm glad I don't have any. -- William T Goodall Mail : w...@wtgab.demon.co.uk Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://blog.williamgoodall.name/ Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
