Re: Brin: The Digital Surveillance State: Vast, Secret, and Dangerous
On Aug 23, 2010, at 2:24 AM, KZK wrote: On Aug 21, 2010, at 21:51, David Brin wrote: Whine, moan bitch complain without any sensible suggestions... yep, that's the Cato way. Above all, aim all suspicion-of-authority at some vague "government" and ignore all other forces. From: KZK To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 6:42:35 PM Subject: Brin: The Digital Surveillance State: Vast, Secret, and Dangerous http://www.cato-unbound.org/2010/08/09/glenn-greenwald/the-digital-surveillance-state-vast-secret-and-dangerous/ On 8/21/2010 10:14 PM, Chris Frandsen wrote: This is the same anti government pitch being pushed right now to hamstring this administration. So, we should just ignore it when Obama is worse, in this case on spying on Americans, than Bush was, just because he has a (D) after his name? We should just ignore it when Obama does the opposite of what he campaigned on, just because he has a (D) after his name? We should Shut our mouths over things that when Bush did them, were completely outrageous, just because he has a (D) after his name? So we should just turn of four brains and accept everything he does as good, and just and right, and beyond criticism, just because he has a (D) after his name? I have to admit, one reason I voted for Obama (and I did vote for him, both in the primaries and in the general election) was my belief that at the very least, he would partially if not completely dismantle the invasive "security" apparatus that Bush/Cheney were so eager to put into place the day after 9/11/01, and if nothing else, call for the repeal of at least portions of the USA PATRIOT Act and the illegal (by the actual FISA statute, if I remember correctly) "warrantless wiretapping" practices used by the domestic security/intel agencies and restore some accountability to government surveillance of citizens. The fact that he did nothing of the sort, and in fact took steps to further entrench that policy of surveillance and extrajudicial "anti- terrorism" measures that ultimately completely bypass due process, by itself makes me regret ever supporting him. It's a largely inexplicable discrepancy between the policy promises he campaigned on and the actual policies he put in place once in office. As far as I know, Cheney's shadow Situation Room, PEOC, and secure communications facilities are still in place at One Observatory Circle, as I've heard no mention anywhere of those being decommissioned or removed. Granted, Joe Biden doesn't seem to be the type of VP who would take advantage of having those facilities there, but that hinges on a gut-level read of the man that may be wildly if not totally inaccurate. We still only have simple good-faith assertions by the various three letter agencies involved that they will not use the largely unaccountable surveillance powers they have for reprisals against citizens' criticism of the apparatus itself or of Congress' or presidential administrations' use or misuse of it. So far I haven't seen any evidence of its misuse, but a great deal of such misuse could be going out without any news of it ever surfacing, the way it's structured from what's been disclosed. And given that we're talking about a system that can data-mine the entire US telecommunications infrastructure in real time, under software control, on fairly abstract semantic levels, the potential for virtually untraceable abuse is significant indeed. Which is what disappoints and concerns me about what *hasn't* happened to correct this during this administration. (And the irony is that the same neoconservatives who couldn't be enthusiastic enough about the expansion of government power after 9/11, while Bush II was in office, are suddenly completely against it now that Obama is in office. Seems they forgot the rule that you should never give a government powers you wouldn't want your worst nightmare of a government to have..) "Democracy is a pathetic belief in the collective wisdom of individual ignorance." -- H. L. Mencken ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: The Digital Surveillance State: Vast, Secret, and Dangerous
You got me. I skimmed. the modern sin. If you had any idea how many people I must respond to. From: KZK To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Mon, August 23, 2010 12:24:31 AM Subject: Re: Brin: The Digital Surveillance State: Vast, Secret, and Dangerous On 8/21/2010 10:14 PM, Chris Frandsen wrote: > This is the same anti government pitch being pushed right now to hamstring > this >administration. So, we should just ignore it when Obama is worse, in this case on spying on Americans, than Bush was, just because he has a (D) after his name? We should just ignore it when Obama does the opposite of what he campaigned on, just because he has a (D) after his name? We should Shut our mouths over things that when Bush did them, were completely outrageous, just because he has a (D) after his name? So we should just turn of four brains and accept everything he does as good, and just and right, and beyond criticism, just because he has a (D) after his name? > > Chris > > On Aug 21, 2010, at 21:51, David Brin wrote: > >> Whine, moan bitch complain without any sensible suggestions... yep, that's >> the >>Cato way. >> >> Above all, aim all suspicion-of-authority at some vague "government" and >> ignore >>all other forces. >> >> From: KZK >> To: brin-l@mccmedia.com >> Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 6:42:35 PM >> Subject: Brin: The Digital Surveillance State: Vast, Secret, and Dangerous >> >>http://www.cato-unbound.org/2010/08/09/glenn-greenwald/the-digital-surveillance-state-vast-secret-and-dangerous/ >>/ >> ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: The Digital Surveillance State: Vast, Secret, and Dangerous
On 8/21/2010 10:14 PM, Chris Frandsen wrote: This is the same anti government pitch being pushed right now to hamstring this administration. So, we should just ignore it when Obama is worse, in this case on spying on Americans, than Bush was, just because he has a (D) after his name? We should just ignore it when Obama does the opposite of what he campaigned on, just because he has a (D) after his name? We should Shut our mouths over things that when Bush did them, were completely outrageous, just because he has a (D) after his name? So we should just turn of four brains and accept everything he does as good, and just and right, and beyond criticism, just because he has a (D) after his name? Chris On Aug 21, 2010, at 21:51, David Brin wrote: Whine, moan bitch complain without any sensible suggestions... yep, that's the Cato way. Above all, aim all suspicion-of-authority at some vague "government" and ignore all other forces. From: KZK To: brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sat, August 21, 2010 6:42:35 PM Subject: Brin: The Digital Surveillance State: Vast, Secret, and Dangerous http://www.cato-unbound.org/2010/08/09/glenn-greenwald/the-digital-surveillance-state-vast-secret-and-dangerous/ ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
Re: Brin: The Digital Surveillance State: Vast, Secret, and Dangerous
Re: Brin: The Digital Surveillance State: Vast, Secret, and Dangerous David Brin Sat, 21 Aug 2010 19:51:51 -0700 Whine, moan bitch complain without any sensible suggestions... yep, that's the Cato way. Above all, aim all suspicion-of-authority at some vague "government" and ignore all other forces. ??Wha?? Um, I'm not sure why Glenn Greenwald, who writes for Salon, and is not exactly a friend to the "Libertarian set", would write for a Pro-Cato site, (I thought it was an anti-cato site, namely because Glenn Greenwald wrote the article). Also, the article, in particular, examines in detail many of the specific abuses the Obama admin has continued and extended from the Bush administration. It's clear you didn't read the article, or even know who Glenn Greenwald is (try Salon.com). From: KZK http://www.cato-unbound.org/2010/08/09/glenn-greenwald/the-digital-surveillance-state-vast-secret-and-dangerous/ And as we acquiesce to more and more sacrifices of our privacy to the omnipotent Surveillance State, it builds the wall of secrecy behind which it operates higher and more impenetrable, which means it constantly knows more about the actions of citizens, while citizens constantly know less about it. We chirp endlessly about the Congress, the White House, the Supreme Court, the Democrats and Republicans, but this is the Real U.S. Government: a massive Surveillance State functioning in darkness, beyond elections and parties, so secret, vast and powerful that it evades the control or knowledge of any one person or even any organization. ___ http://box535.bluehost.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
