from:"William T Goodall"


On 2 Sep 2008, at 08:06, Dave Land wrote:

 On Aug 30, 2008, at 5:23 PM, William T Goodall wrote:


 On 30 Aug 2008, at 23:48, Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote:

 Even if you don't give a fuck about people with Down Syndrome,
 remember that, not long ago, someone else started doing the
 same thing, and he-who-should-not-be-mentioned-in-mailing-lists
 began the pogrom by mass-murdering those with mental handicaps.

 I invoke Godwin's Law. You lose the argument.

 No. Godwin's Law does not allow you to win or lose arguments. It
 merely states that this discussion is basically over.

 Cite please? Why yes, of course:

 http://www.faqs.org/faqs/usenet/legends/godwin/


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

There are many corollaries to Godwin's law, some considered more  
canonical (by being adopted by Godwin himself)[2] than others invented  
later.[1] For example, there is a tradition in many newsgroups and  
other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made,  
the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has  
automatically lost whatever debate was in progress. This principle  
is itself frequently referred to as Godwin's Law. 

Definitions Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great  
evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. -  
Richard Dawkins



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Re: Science and Ideals.


On 2 Sep 2008, at 02:18, Dan M wrote:

 Olin wrote at the end
 These are all scientific questions though.  If the answers don't  
 come form
 there, where will they come from?



[snip]
 So, there seems to be at least a few of us who agree that the  
 naturalistic
 fallacy is just that, a fallacy. But, if we don't go that route,  
 then where
 does one ground basic concepts of good and evil, right and wrong,  
 better and
 worse?

 I've seen two clear alternatives to this question, and a whole lot  
 of stuff
 that I can't make heads or tails of: denying both of the clear  
 alternatives,
 not falling into the naturalistic fallacy, yet not saying anything I  
 can get
 may hands around.  (BTW, I don't need to agree with an idea to  
 understand
 it; I just need to see the worldview._

  I suggest if you can't understand the arguments you refrain from  
commenting at all.



 The two clear views are these: morality, better, worse, etc. are  
 based on
 axioms that are posited (i.e. taken on faith) or they are just tools  
 of
 politics.

So you've progressed from the strawman argument to the false dichotomy?


More Later Maru



-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Science and Ideals.


On 2 Sep 2008, at 02:18, Dan M wrote:

 So, there seems to be at least a few of us who agree that the  
 naturalistic
 fallacy is just that, a fallacy. But, if we don't go that route,  
 then where
 does one ground basic concepts of good and evil, right and wrong,  
 better and
 worse?



Why do they need to be 'grounded'? Doesn't that just lead to an  
infinite regress?

If ethics is valid because it is 'grounded' in X, what makes X a valid  
basis? Because it's grounded in Y?  And Y in Z?  And ...

Saying 'God did it' is just as useless a non-answer for ethics as it  
is for the origin of the universe.

Bumper Sticker Philosophy Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the  
arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons.


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Re: Science and Ideals.


On 2 Sep 2008, at 02:18, Dan M wrote:
 My personal favorite version is love your neighbor as you love  
 yourself
 because this balances the importance of neighbor and oneself.  I  
 know people
 who are so self-sacrificing that they neglect themselves.  How best  
 to do
 this can be the subject of tremendous debate, since we do not have  
 enough
 information to know outcomes.  But, that's not my central point  
 here.  My
 central point is that the Golden Rule is an axiom; inherently  
 unprovable.
 The only way to prove it is as a theorem from another axiom that's not
 provable: e.g. because we are all made in the image and likeness of  
 God we
 must love one's neighbor as oneself.

Or it could be a social contract.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory_of_Justice

New Ideas Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Science and Ideals.


On 2 Sep 2008, at 15:53, Dan M wrote:



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:brin-l- 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of Doug Pensinger

 Of course if I was to ask the question it would probably be something
 like;
 do you think ethics are created by magic or do you believe that  
 they are
 cultural constructs?

 No, actually, I believe that there exists truth apart from us.  That  
 we have
 partial understanding of that truth.  That the Critique of Pure  
 Reason did a
 good job defining and a fairly decent job addressing the truth.

 There have been many social constructs in history.  If one defines  
 morality
 in terms of social constructs, and they contradict one another,  
 which one is
 right?  Is it the one that won?

 If that is the case,


Fallacy: petitio principii, Begging the question.


[snip]


 Finally, it appears that you and others here  old the viewpoint that
 realism.  If realism is valid, how can there be a plethora of
 interpretations of science, each describing a far different reality,  
 with no
 testable differences,

[snip]

Fallacy: Ignoratio elenchi or red herring.

Critique Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the  
arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons.


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Re: Science and Ideals.


On 1 Sep 2008, at 15:34, Olin Elliott wrote:

 The question 'where do our ethical ideas come from' has the answer
 'our nature as social mammals'.

 The question 'how do we tell good from bad' does not have the answer
 'our nature as social mammals'.

 Category Mistake Maru

 I'm not sure this is true, although I'll admit I don't have the  
 answersto the questions it raises.  If our ethical ideas come from  
 our nature as social animals -- and I do believe that's true, even  
 to the degree that we share ethics to a large degree with other  
 social animals -- for instance birds who mate for life, the  
 intricate social systems of wolf packs and primates, or the amazing  
 civility of dogs toward other dogs (just go to a dog park sometime  
 and observe for a while the rules by which dogs interact, and how  
 99% of the time even a group of strange dogs who have never met  
 before recognize and behave by those rules) -- if all of that comes  
 from our nature as social animals, then where else can the ability  
 to tell right from wrong come from?  Those of us who do not believe  
 in a transcendent power, a revealed ethical system, can't argue from  
 authority or tradition.  The real danger here is that we can easily  
 descend into total relativsm, which is essentially no ethic
 al system at all.  I think we all believe that there are some things  
 which are write and wrong absolutely (or every nearly so), but  
 explaining that belief is more difficult.  If our ethical ideas are  
 a product f evolution and our social nature, and if the only way we  
 can tell good from bad is by nature of our eithical ideas, then if  
 follows that it all arises out of evolution.  The question is how?


I think that our capacity for ethics comes from our social animal  
nature but that telling good from bad comes from thinking about ethics  
using our intelligence.



 Stephen Pinker, Daniell Dennett and other writers have done some  
 very provocative work on this and related qestions. One explanation  
 would be that our ethical sense is an emergent property of our  
 species specific reasoning skills which are themselves probably a  
 product of lanague.  The ability to make analogies, to reason about  
 long-term consequences, to imagine the effect of our behavior on  
 others, and to abstract general propositions from specific  
 circumstances all create a new level of ethical concerns.

 Ethics seems to be a little like mathematics, in the sense that  
 there may be certain axioms that we have to start with, which  
 cannot in themselves be proven.  Since there are an infinite number  
 of these possible axioms, we are left with the question of how to  
 choose between them.  Perhaps it comes down to something like the  
 pragmatic test that William James and others suggested:  the cash  
 value of ideas.  If I hold such-and-such an ethical principle, and  
 I draw out all the logical conclusions from that principle, what  
 kind of world would I be living in?  This approach has had mixed  
 success of course.

And if it's like mathematics it raises the question would aliens  
develop the same ethics as us?



 I think there's also an analogy to language.  Noam Chomsky pointed  
 out a long time ago that certain aspects of lanague are hardwired  
 into the human brain, they develop normally in any child exposed to  
 language in a critical period.  He noted that many of the patterns  
 found in laugages around the world are not inherntly logical -- and  
 that it is possible to create far more logical, rational language --  
 Esperanto is an example -- but humans have a hard time learning  
 these languages, because the are not human languages, not in keeping  
 with the intricate grammar structured in our heads by evoltuion.  I  
 suspect that the same thing is true of a lot of our idealistic  
 ethical systems -- and the systems I hold most precious, democracy,  
 the open society, etc. almost certainly fall into this category --  
 they do not come naturally to us, and in a sense we must re-learn  
 them over and over again, and we must make a concious effort to  
 translate from our natural ethical language into these
  systems, because on a basic level we may never really learn to  
 think in them.  Maybe out descendents will, if these systems turn  
 out to have survival value.

 These are all scientific questions though.  If the answers don't  
 come form there, where will they come from?

Fortunately people don't spend much time arguing about which language  
is 'best' ;-)

Sapir-Whorf Maru


-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Science and Ideals.


On 2 Sep 2008, at 23:47, Dan M wrote:

 This is actually at the heart of my point.  As you said, it has to  
 stop
 someplace.  Different people have different stopping places when they
 develop ethical systems.  Systems have been developed that I would  
 guess
 most of us would find repugnant, such as systems that consider the
 extermination of other races as highly moral.

 But, such systems, such as different maths, can have internal  
 consistency.
 There are tens of thousands (at least) different self-consistent  
 axiomatic
 systems.  Some are better at achieving a given goal (say modeling  
 QM) than
 others.  But, without such an external yardstick, there is no way to  
 call
 one system better than the other.

Just like how without an external yardstick there is no way to call  
Uwe Boll's _BloodRayne_ better than Shakespeare's _Hamlet_. Because if  
it's all just opinions they are all equally valid and there is no way  
to call one better than the other?

Not a car analogy Maru


-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the  
arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons.


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Re: Science and Ideals.

2008-09-01 Thread William T Goodall


On 1 Sep 2008, at 04:17, Dan M wrote:
 That all sounds reasonable to me. But, if one also Googles Social  
 Darwinism,
 one finds numerous references that list a number of folks who  
 believed in
 it, including a number who clearly spent more than 10 minutes  
 thinking about
 ethics.  Now, I don't think they thought all that well, but it's not  
 what I
 consider a straw man because it is a view that was (and is) held by  
 many.


It's not a view held by anyone on this list, so who are you arguing  
with? Hence strawman.


 Indeed, I know that I've argued strongly with list members against
 evolutionary ethics while you were on the list.  So, folks I'm  
 trying to
 discuss things with do believe in things that fall under this  
 umbrella...so
 I'm not sure how it's a straw man.

The question of how we come to have ethical ideas is a different kind  
of question, with a different kind of answer,  than the question of  
what is good.

The question 'where do our ethical ideas come from' has the answer  
'our nature as social mammals'.

The question 'how do we tell good from bad' does not have the answer  
'our nature as social mammals'.

Category Mistake Maru


-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Sarah Palin


On 31 Aug 2008, at 03:45, Charlie Bell wrote:


 If you're trolling back at Will, please stop it. One like him on this
 list is enough.

Who's a naughty boy then?

Ad Hominem Maru

--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the  
arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons.


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Re: Honest terminology


On 31 Aug 2008, at 15:29, Ronn! Blankenship wrote:

 McCain just said on whatever Sunday morning show he's being
 interviewed on right now that those who have lost their sense of
 humor ought to turn off their computers and go outside and get a
 breath of fresh air.



Everybody knows the proper way to indicate humour, sarcasm, irony and  
so forth is through the appropriate emoticons ;-)


Running gag Maru


-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Due to a typographical error the entire arctic deployment had been  
issued Turkish pastries as headwear.


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Re: Honest terminology


On 31 Aug 2008, at 16:14, Olin Elliott wrote:

 McCain just said on whatever Sunday morning show he's being
 interviewed on right now that those who have lost their sense of
 humor ought to turn off their computers and go outside and get a
 breath of fresh air.

 So does that mean he intends Sarah Palin as a joke?

The latest rumours about her are pretty funny %-}

http://www.spartacuslives.org/node/20463


--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great  
evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. -  
Richard Dawkins



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Re: Science and Ideals.


On 31 Aug 2008, at 18:04, Dan M wrote:

 Having brought up science earlier, it seems reasonable to choose  
 this time
 to address a prevalent understanding: that the questions of ethics,  
 human
 interaction, etc. are all definable and resolvable in a scientific  
 manner.
 Indeed if we look at harmful ideologies developed over the past 150  
 or so
 years, we see the attempts to put a scientific footing at the  
 basis of
 these new ideologies.

This is a massive strawman argument that you keep revisiting  
endlessly. Nobody who has ever spent five minutes investigating ethics  
is confused about this. David Hume identified the is-ought problem in  
_A Treatise of Human Nature_ published in 1740 and G E Moore describd  
the Naturalistic Fallacy in _Principia Ethica_ in 1903.

How about  discussing Rawls' _A Theory of Justice_ or some other  
actually relevant ideas instead of belaboring strawmen like 'Social  
Darwinism'?

Deja Vu Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Every Sunday Christians congregate to drink blood in honour of their  
zombie master.


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Re: Teaching multiple models of science


On 31 Aug 2008, at 19:13, Kevin B. O'Brien wrote:

 Dan M wrote:
 I wouldn't put it that way, because there are a wealth of possible  
 future
 tests.  And theories that have been falsified are still taught in  
 science
 class...in fact most physics that is being taught has been  
 falsifiedbut
 survives as special cases of the new theory.

 But in that case we don't present it as true, exactly. For example,
 Newton's Laws of Motion are now presented as acceptable  
 approximations.
 Nothing wrong with that, it is easier to do the calculations that way
 than to use General Relativity to calculate orbits, for instance.


I was taught that 22/7 was a handy approximation for pi but I wasn't  
taught that it was pi. And I was taught the Bohr model of the atom in  
high school chemistry along with the explanation that it was a  
perfectly good model for high-school chemistry although superseded.

 In a class that is about how science develops, that could well make
 sense. I taught a class some years ago on History of Science, and that
 is something I tried to bring into it. But I would (and did) insist  
 that
 we look at this process in terms of how science makes these judgments,
 and that is by making falsifiable hypotheses and testable predictions,
 and then doing the test. If we don't do that, I don't think we are  
 doing
 science.

If schools are to teach history of science as well as science then  
some other less useful subject has to be cancelled. I vote for PE/ 
Gym :-)

Not a subject Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Every Sunday Christians congregate to drink blood in honour of their  
zombie master.


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Re: Personhood (was: Sarah Palin)


On 31 Aug 2008, at 16:10, Olin Elliott wrote:

 So you're a strict vegan?


 No Wisecracks About 26 Light Years Maru

 I'm a vegetarian, became one some years ago when I just ran out of  
 excuses.  Because I like it didn't' seem like enough reason to  
 keep supporting the industry that produces our meat in this age.   
 I'm working toward veganism, and along the way supporting small  
 local dairies that use organic methods and produce on a smaller,  
 more humane scale.  Its not perfect, but I feel much better about  
 the impact I have now.

They wouldn't keep those animals locked up behind barbed wire on death  
row if they weren't guilty of something.

Barbecue Maru


-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

I wish developing great products was as easy as writing a check. If  
so, then Microsoft would have great products. - Steve Jobs


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ATL : Drobo

I've been looking into getting a RAID backup system for my home (my  
current mixture of Firewire drives is cumbersome and not all backed  
up) and the Drobo looks quite attractive. I had thought of going NAS  
too, but cheap NAS RAID (Thecus, Acer Altos, Freecom, Synology) all  
seem to have mixed reviews and don't necessarily work properly with  
Apple's Time Machine. The new Firewire Drobo could attach to my main  
personal computer but I don't know how noisy it is. Nowhere around  
here has one to 'kick the tyres' and reviews aren't too clear on how  
much fan noise it makes.

Has anyone actually heard one, and if so how noisy is it?

http://www.drobo.com/

Silent Running Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Two years from now, spam will be solved. - Bill Gates, 2004


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Re: Honest terminology


On 1 Sep 2008, at 01:18, David Hobby wrote:

 William T Goodall wrote:
 ...
 So does that mean he intends Sarah Palin as a joke?

 The latest rumours about her are pretty funny %-}

 http://www.spartacuslives.org/node/20463

 William--

 That is interesting.  One never knows, but those
 are a lot of pictures of her not showing as pregnant.

 So tell me, which would be better?  To carry to term
 a seriously disabled child because her religion says
 she must?  Or to promise her 16-year old daughter who
 is carrying the Down syndrome baby that she will take
 over and treat the baby as hers, leaving her daughter
 to get on with her life?  Or whatever actually happened...

A friend of mine grew up thinking his mother was his sister and he had  
a lot of issues as a result. So I don't think it's a least harm  
approach to that problem anyway.



 Seriously, if true, the rumor immediately disqualifies
 her.  Not for lying, not for hypocrisy, but for being
 dumb enough to think she could get away with it.

If it's not true it's amusing payback for the Republican rumours that  
have 12% of Americans believing Obama is a Muslim  :-)

Dirty Tricks Maru


-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great  
evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. -  
Richard Dawkins



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Abortion (was Re: Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin)


On 1 Sep 2008, at 01:32, David Hobby wrote:

 No, it's the honest terminology.  Abortion kills children,
 very young children who can't survive outside the womb, and
 who wouldn't count as human at all except for their human DNA.

 Now this happens to be the same term adopted by some religious
 zealots, but that doesn't make it incorrect.

 Here's an analogy:  It's like using degrees Kelvin to measure
 temperature, instead of Celsius.  The melting point of water
 is a pretty arbitrary place to put the zero of a temperature
 scale, just as birth is an arbitrary place to start counting
 a child's age.  If we're going to talk about abortion, it's
 only common sense to do it using a scale that starts at
 conception (or the start of cell division).

So a terrorist breaks into a fertility clinic and steals a 1000 frozen  
zygotes. Then they make a demand - release our compatriots from jail  
or we'll kill a thousand American children!

LOL Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Every Sunday Christians congregate to drink blood in honour of their  
zombie master.


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Re: Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin


On 1 Sep 2008, at 01:32, David Hobby wrote:

 (Sorry about the titles.  I just replied about
 Sarah Palin in the Honest Terminology thread,
 and in the Sarah Palin thread, I'm talking about
 honest terminology.)

 William T Goodall wrote:
 On 30 Aug 2008, at 04:54, David Hobby wrote:
 ...
 William--

 I truly admire the subtlety with which you troll.

 For those of us without moral absolutes that decide the
 issue, it is difficult to decide how disabled a child has
 to be so that it is better to kill it at a very young age
 and invest the resources elsewhere.

 A fetus isn't a child. That's why there's a different word for it.

 (To use honest
 terminology.)

 You're the one trying to use dishonest terminology.
 ...

 William--

 No, it's the honest terminology.  Abortion kills children,
 very young children who can't survive outside the womb, and
 who wouldn't count as human at all except for their human DNA.

No it doesn't. Children have been born.



 Now this happens to be the same term adopted by some religious
 zealots, but that doesn't make it incorrect.

 Here's an analogy:  It's like using degrees Kelvin to measure
 temperature, instead of Celsius.  The melting point of water
 is a pretty arbitrary place to put the zero of a temperature
 scale, just as birth is an arbitrary place to start counting
 a child's age.  If we're going to talk about abortion, it's
 only common sense to do it using a scale that starts at
 conception (or the start of cell division).

Our culture starts measuring age from birth, not conception. I believe  
some cultures do measure age from conception but not ours.

If you start counting zygotes as children then IUDs and morning after  
pills are infanticide. That's just wackjob wingnut daft.

Crazy Talk Maru
-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

The three chief virtues of a programmer are: Laziness, Impatience and  
Hubris - Larry Wall


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Re: Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin


On 1 Sep 2008, at 02:32, David Hobby wrote:

 William T Goodall wrote:
 On 1 Sep 2008, at 01:32, David Hobby wrote:
 ...

 If you start counting zygotes as children then IUDs and morning after
 pills are infanticide. That's just wackjob wingnut daft.

 Well, they are preventing things from living.

So does celibacy. So not breeding as fruitfully as possible is  
murdering children?

 It's a big
 leap to claim that's the same as killing, and another to
 proclaim that whatever was killed was an infant.  I suggest
 that it's more effective to target the holes in an opposing
 argument, rather than to just fight blindly.

   ---David

 So why do people say unborn child?  Maru.

Because they have an agenda.

1984 Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the  
arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons.


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Re: Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin


On 30 Aug 2008, at 04:54, David Hobby wrote:

 William T Goodall wrote:
 Sarah Palin  ... Vice President
 ...

 She's a crazy person. With four kids already, and at an age when the
 risk of fetal abnormalities is massively escalated, she gets pregnant
 again and when the tests show it has Down Syndrome she doesn't abort.
 She's wealthy enough that the coping will be done by servants so her
 moral position won't inconvenience her political career (and boost
 it with other nutters) but it's a terrible, selfish, morally bankrupt
 example to set.

 William--

 I truly admire the subtlety with which you troll.

 For those of us without moral absolutes that decide the
 issue, it is difficult to decide how disabled a child has
 to be so that it is better to kill it at a very young age
 and invest the resources elsewhere.

A fetus isn't a child. That's why there's a different word for it.

  (To use honest
 terminology.)

You're the one trying to use dishonest terminology.


Every Sperm is Sacred Maru

--  
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Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the  
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Re: Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin


On 30 Aug 2008, at 03:54, William T Goodall wrote:

 She's a crazy person.


McCain's VP Wants Creationism Taught in School

http://blog.wired.com/wiredscience/2008/08/mccains-vp-want.html


Told you Maru


--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great  
evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. -  
Richard Dawkins



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Re: Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin


On 30 Aug 2008, at 16:19, Nick Arnett wrote:

 On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 7:50 AM, Gary Nunn  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 I don't think I would want it to be taught as an equal  
 alternative, but
 she's right, a healthy (and controlled) debate about a socially  
 sensitive
 subject could be a healthy and useful life skill to develop.


 People could use that skill in on-line discussions!


That assumes there aren't crazy religionists trying to play the system  
to promote their superstitious pernicious garbage.

Vigilance Maru

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Re: Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin


On 30 Aug 2008, at 17:10, Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote:

 William T Goodall wrote:

 That assumes there aren't crazy religionists trying to play the  
 system
 to promote their superstitious pernicious garbage.

 When it's split between crazy creationists in one side and
 mass murdering atheist baby killers on the other side, I think
 I side with the creationists.

Why take sides?

Peanut gallery Maru


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Re: Debate (was Re: Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin)


On 30 Aug 2008, at 17:13, Nick Arnett wrote:

 On Sat, Aug 30, 2008 at 8:32 AM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:

 People could use that skill in on-line discussions!


 That assumes there aren't crazy religionists trying to play the  
 system
 to promote their superstitious pernicious garbage.


 Much more than that.

 The essence of reasonable debate is that the participants are armed  
 with
 sufficient education and discipline to resist irrationality and form
 arguments that provoke greater understanding, knowledge and perhaps  
 wisdom.

And there are people who know that they will lose a reasonable debate  
and therefore deliberately sabotage reasonable debate by using lies  
and illogic and any other dirty tricks they can come up with instead  
of reasonable debate.

Creationists are such a group.

Liars Maru
-- 
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Re: Sarah Palin


On 30 Aug 2008, at 23:48, Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote:

 Jon Louis Mann wrote:

 When it's split between crazy creationists in one side
 and mass murdering atheist baby killers on the other, I
 think I side with the creationists.

 That is not thinking, Alberto, that is feeling!~)  I unequivocally  
 side
 with the mass murdering atheists!~).

 I don't. When atheist-based ideology condemns every baby with
 Down Syndrome to be search and destroyed, it's a message
 that people with Down Syndrome should also be hunted and
 gassed.

That doesn't follow at all. That's the kind of illogical argument  
religionists make, like if we allow gay marriage they'll be marrying  
donkeys next!.

By this line of reasoning Ashkenazi Jews are trying to commit genocide  
on themselves by practising genetic screening for inherited diseases!




 Even if you don't give a fuck about people with Down Syndrome,
 remember that, not long ago, someone else started doing the
 same thing, and he-who-should-not-be-mentioned-in-mailing-lists
 began the pogrom by mass-murdering those with mental handicaps.

I invoke Godwin's Law. You lose the argument.



 Exclusion is usually irreversible, when you started excluding people
 from Humanity the final outcome is that only _one_ group remains.

Abortion and contraception are not excluding people from humanity.



 I wonder if Sarah Palin is deliberately using her Down Syndrom  
 pregnancy
 with four kids already, and at an age when the risk of fetal  
 abnormalities
 is massively escalated?

 This is nonsense. There's no way (at least for euploid adults) to make
 the chance of having a Down Syndrome baby more than a ridiculously
 small value. Even for very old women the rate is still less than 5%.

 By not aborting, her moral position has advanced
 her political career.  It IS a terrible, selfish, morally bankrupt  
 example
 to set, especially if McCain wins and she is a doddering heartbeat  
 away
 from the presidency.

 So, you think that someone does the _right_ thing, it's only because
 it benefits the political career? In other words, if I am in a  
 position, say,
 to accept a bribe, and I don't accept, I only do it because it will  
 benefit
 me?


If it makes you feel good about your probity that's a benefit :-)

Simple Pleasures Maru

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Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the  
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Re: Honest terminology


On 30 Aug 2008, at 23:53, Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote:

 Jon Louis Mann wrote:

 Just think of how many children's' lives in Africa could be saved  
 with the
 resources used to support the world's first surviving set of  
 septuplets,
 born in Des Moines, Iowa to Kenny and Bobbi McCaughey.  (...)

 So you believe that the logic of capitalism should be used to decide
 on who lives or who dies? For example, think how many children's lives
 in Africa could be saved if we took all those infected with HIV,  
 gassed
 them, burned their bodies (in an anthropothermic power plant - let's
 now waste biofuel!) and saved the money they bleed from HIV
 researches and treatment? Add those old people with cancer - why do
 those selfish bastards want to live a few more years?

 atheism is evil, why it should be eradicated Maru

 Capitalism. That's what you started with and then you changed  
the subject for no reason. And as you know very well atheism isn't an  
ethical system and has nothing to say about right/wrong good/bad. It  
just says superstitious religion is false. It's a separate ethical  
matter that false is evil.

Naughty Troll


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Re: Welcome to Hyperinflation!


On 29 Aug 2008, at 18:34, Dave Land wrote:


 I am having a hard time finding good numbers, but one reference on the
 web (http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/H/1990/ch8_p21.htm) put it above 20% in
 1980.


http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/L-carterreagan.htm


Second Hand Maru

--  
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Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the  
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Re: Secular belief vs Science


On 29 Aug 2008, at 20:18, David Land wrote:


 My mind boggled. Why ask the damn question, then?

She had faith.

Unreasoning Belief Maru

--  
William T Goodall
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There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant  
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Re: Secular belief vs Science


On 29 Aug 2008, at 21:04, Jon Louis Mann wrote:


 when it was time for my son to be immunized several years ago, i  
 opted to wait till he was older, and then space them out; figuring  
 better to be safe than sorry.  i suppose that is why some people  
 choose to believe in gawd.
 jon

So it's the immunisation version of Pascal's Wager?

Betting Slip Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
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It is our belief, however, that serious professional users will run  
out of things they can do with UNIX. - Ken Olsen, President of DEC,  
1984.


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Re: Vice Presidential candidate Sarah Palin


On 30 Aug 2008, at 02:36, Gary Nunn wrote:


 Considering the fact that McCain just announced his VP running mate  
 today,
 it's interesting that there are domain names associating Sarah Palin  
 with
 Vice President registered back in June 2008. The domain name
 VicePresidentSarahPalin.com was registered on June 14, 2008. Nothing  
 illegal
 or underhanded about that, just interesting that people knew or  
 suspected
 more than two months ago.

She's a crazy person. With four kids already, and at an age when the  
risk of fetal abnormalities is massively escalated, she gets pregnant  
again and when the tests show it has Down Syndrome she doesn't abort.  
She's wealthy enough that the coping will be done by servants so her  
moral position won't inconvenience her political career (and boost  
it with other nutters) but it's a terrible, selfish, morally bankrupt  
example to set.

Sick Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant  
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Re: Sore losers

2008-08-27 Thread William T Goodall


On 27 Aug 2008, at 16:35, Nick Arnett wrote:

 On Tue, Aug 26, 2008 at 5:36 PM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:

 So why are the Americans counting total medals instead of golds for
 the olympics?


 Who is doing this counting?  I just searched Google News and what I  
 see are
 headlines like US pleased with Olympic medal count.  I really  
 couldn't
 find any of the sort of complaining you allege.


 From the Houston Chronicle

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/sports/5963934.html

BEIJING — As China celebrated the end of the 2008 Beijing Olympics by  
gazing upon its pile of gold medals and dipping into Western culture  
to proclaim, “We’re No. 1,” the United States contemplated the glories  
of the socialist collective — and came up with the same answer.
Taking individual event finals into account, the host nation was the  
runaway leader in gold medals, with 51 to 36 for the United States.  
But the United States led in total medals with 110 to 100 for China,  
72 for Russia and 47 for Great Britain, host of the 2012 London Games.
On top of that, as the country that introduced and perfected the  
concept of sabermetrical parsing, the U.S. came up with a way to  
finish on top in gold medals.

Counting its dominance in team sports in the final week of the Games,  
“More individual U.S. athletes will carry home gold medals around  
their neck than any other nation, if you want to count it that way,”  
said Jim Scherr, U.S. Olympic Committee CEO.
By that measure, the Americans routed the home team. Computing gold  
medals presented to each athlete on teams in men’s and women’s  
basketball, men’s volleyball, women’s rowing, beach volleyball and  
relay teams in track and swimming, among others, the U.S. claimed 125  
total golds to 74 for China. In total medals awarded, the United  
States scored 315 to 186 for China.




 And why the innuendo about Usain Bolt as long as he's
 clean?


 I searched on that phrase and I got nothing.  The only articles I  
 find about
 this are some concerns that Jamaica only started a national drug- 
 testing
 program after the start of the Olympics.  Who's supposedly saying  
 this?  The
 news reports I'm reading say that the Jamaican team was tested  
 repeatedly
 during the games.

 In short, cite please.

 From the New York Times

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/08/22/sports/olympics/22longman.html?_r=1emoref=slogin

As Records Fall, Suspicions of Doping Linger

[...]
I want to believe that talent and hard work and determination are not  
fossil fuels, that a human, unlike a car, does not need chemical  
additives to run at peak efficiency.

Bolt is likable, as playful as he is fast. His speed is breathtaking.

He is the first man to win the Olympic 100 and 200 meters since Carl  
Lewis in 1984, the first to set world records in both events at the  
same Summer Games.

But when I want to fully believe, I feel a twinge of skepticism. It  
nags, like a strained hamstring.

Plenty more in that vein in the American press.

Cite Maru





-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Weekly Chat Reminder

2008-08-27 Thread William T Goodall


The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over nine
years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set
up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established
a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat
technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but
the chat goes on... and we want more recruits!

Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've
been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined
today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less
politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion.
We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly...
-(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown.

The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM
Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time.
There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight
hours after the start time. If no-one is there when you arrive
just wait around a while for the next person to show up!

If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to
do is send your web browser to:

  http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/

..And you can connect directly from the NEW new web
interface!

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG
 is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up.
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Re: Brazilian volleyball girls

2008-08-27 Thread William T Goodall


On 28 Aug 2008, at 00:43, Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote:

 Jon Louis Mann wrote:

 I bow down to the Chinese volleyball girls,

 Err... They were blasted 3 x 0 by the Brazilian volleyball
 girls :-P

 missed that, congrats to brazil!~)


 did you happen to see the joke on
 letterman about the chinese volleyball girl?

 No.

I think it was one of the Chinese beach volleyball teams, probably Xue/ 
Zhang?


 BTW, how can China still have female teams, with its enormous abortion
 rate?


They still have a huge young female population even if it is slightly  
lower than the young male population. Plenty of scope to find a Xue  
Chen (a 6'3 beach volleyball player) and so on.

In fact I should think China is the country with the world's largest  
young female population despite gender imbalance followed by India  
(which also has a male excess).

Relative Maru

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Sore losers

2008-08-26 Thread William T Goodall

So why are the Americans counting total medals instead of golds for  
the olympics? And why the innuendo about Usain Bolt as long as he's  
clean? And the manufactured fuss about miming during the opening  
ceremony when everybody does it during these kind of events (the  
Australians admitted they did it at Sydney). And the 'not real sports'  
jibes about table tennis, rhythmic gymnastics and others?

Beach Volleyball Rules Maru
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Re: Brin: What's in the works?

2008-08-25 Thread William T Goodall


On 25 Aug 2008, at 14:25, John Garcia wrote:

 McCain doesn't know how to use a computer. So? What does that have  
 to do
 with
 being President?

It means he's completely out of touch with reality.


 My choice for President depends on which candidate I think
 will
 address all the issues facing the USA consistent with my values, not  
 whether
 or not he has a cool Facebook page.

Wouldn't he have to understand the issues first?

Dinosaur Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great  
evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. -  
Richard Dawkins



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Re: World Trade

2008-08-25 Thread William T Goodall


On 25 Aug 2008, at 14:18, John Garcia wrote:

 On Sun, Aug 24, 2008 at 9:05 PM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:

 Why should the white farmers who were born in Zimbabwe from several
 generations of people born in Zimbabwe have their property and
 livelihoods confiscated either directly or through taxation just
 because they are white? That's racism isn't it?

 Saucy Maru

[snip]
 Maybe. Might also be an attempt to redistribute wealth.

That certainly worked well :-)

 It's clear to me
 that whatever else
 is going on, those currently on top are determined to exact some  
 payback
 from those who
 once ran that country.

And that's never worked well either.

Lessons Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
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Those who study history are doomed to repeat it.


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Re: Brin: What's in the works?

2008-08-24 Thread William T Goodall


On 24 Aug 2008, at 22:42, Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote:

 David Brin wrote:

 But of course I am distracted by the elections, hoping
 we'll at last save America and civilization from a
 criminal gang.  (What we're seeing -- including the
 outright and direct theft of half a trillion dollars
 -- goes far beyond regular issues of mere left or
 right.)

 Now I'm curious - what's so wrong about McCain (beyond his
 killing of McAbel)?

 Alberto Monteiro


He doesn't know how to use a computer, he doesn't know how many houses  
he owns and he seems to have too many senior moments for someone in  
charge of the big red button?

And that's without anything to do with his policies.

Ooh! Shiny  Maru


-- 
William T Goodall
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Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

It was only after ordering the melon balls that Rick discovered he was  
at a drive through plastic surgery.



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Re: World Trade

2008-08-24 Thread William T Goodall


On 24 Aug 2008, at 21:19, Dan M wrote:

 If the land produces enough food for the people in a country to live  
 on,
 then the problem of actual starvation goes down.  Zimbabwe is a good  
 example
 of this: it was a food exporter before governments took the farms  
 away from
 experienced farmers and handed it to cronies who had no idea of how to
 farmcausing the risk of mass starvation.

 Now, I know that the experienced farmers are white, and the cronies  
 are
 black, and whites owning most of the land in a majority black  
 country is a
 problem.  But my daughter Neli and I came up with a workable plan to  
 correct
 this gradually in just a few minutes.

 All of the white owned farms have black workers.  One could provide  
 tax
 incentives/disincentives for the farmers to form corporations in  
 which their
 workers earn shares in the corporation with work/time.  I've seen  
 that in
 small US companies, and it's worked well.  No one would be forced to  
 do
 anything at gunpoint, experienced people would always run the farms  
 as well
 as possible, with profits for all when the farms are most productive.


Why should the white farmers who were born in Zimbabwe from several  
generations of people born in Zimbabwe have their property and  
livelihoods confiscated either directly or through taxation just  
because they are white? That's racism isn't it?

Saucy Maru
-- 
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Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Limericks usung purple and orange.

2008-08-22 Thread William T Goodall


On 23 Aug 2008, at 02:24, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Goethe's color theory expressed through Western gunfighters:

The Goethe Institut in Prague was just round the corner from our hotel  
when we were there last November. Made a useful landmark when trying  
to find the hotel again after an evening of delicious Czech pivo :-)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Image-Praha_2005-09-20_Goethe_Institut-01.jpg


Better then German Bier Maru


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I believe OS/2 is destined to be the most important operating system,  
and possibly program, of all time. - Bill Gates, 1987


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Re: Greg Bear's Quantico


On 20 Aug 2008, at 17:17, John Garcia wrote:

 Has anyone read Greg Bear's thriller Quantico?

 I enjoyed it. Bear always gives me some food for thought.

Would you have read it if you didn't know Bear from his SF? Thrillers  
are a much more lucrative genre than SF so it's not surprising SF  
writers sometimes have a try at it (Gregory Benford's _Artifact_ was  
another) but I think they usually have too much SF for the thriller  
crowd and not enough for the SF crowd.

Neither fish nor fowl Maru


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Re: Apology (was Re: Off-topic., monotonous posting (was Child-killing religion))


On 20 Aug 2008, at 21:04, Dave Land wrote:

 William,

 If you have something new to contribute to the discussion, I, for one,
 welcome it.

Newness is a rather high standard to set. Most of the arguments are  
quite old but still not settled.



 If you have more of the same with which to spam the list, then I, for
 one, do not.

 I know that I can simply skip or delete your messages, but where is
 the spirit of IAAMOAC, forcing your fellow list-mates to delete all or
 most of your messages?

The silent majority on the list love reading my posts about the  
pernicious evil of religion. I don't think a couple of whiners should  
get to dictate to everybody else what gets posted here.



 Please, in the interests of community values, stop spamming the list
 with your hatred of religion, about which we are all completely,
 completely aware.


One of the primary community values of this list is diversity of  
opinion.

Expression Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Apology (was Re: Off-topic., monotonous posting (was Child-killing religion))


On 21 Aug 2008, at 11:04, Charlie Bell wrote:


 On 21/08/2008, at 7:48 PM, William T Goodall wrote:

 Newness is a rather high standard to set. Most of the arguments are
 quite old but still not settled.

 But you're not arguing, you're just posting third party articles that
 reinforce your worldview.

What's wrong with that?



 The silent majority on the list love reading my posts about the
 pernicious evil of religion. I don't think a couple of whiners should
 get to dictate to everybody else what gets posted here.

 I mostly agree with your worldview, but I'm still tired of seeing
 articles I've mostly read elsewhere reprinted in full here by you.

But people who don't agree may not have seen them.



 One of the primary community values of this list is diversity of
 opinion.

 Yes, but we all know yours already.



Well maybe we can just all post our geek codes and then shut the  
list :-)

Expression Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
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Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Off-topic., monotonous posting (was Child-killing religion)


On 21 Aug 2008, at 00:47, Kevin B. O'Brien wrote:

 William T Goodall wrote:
 On 20 Aug 2008, at 16:13, Olin Elliott wrote:


 By that description, 99% of the postings are off topic.




 And I'm not even the most frequent poster!

 You are, however, the most monotonous and boring.


I like to excel at everything I do.

Mostest Maru


--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great  
evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. -  
Richard Dawkins



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Re: Apology (was Re: Off-topic., monotonous posting (was Child-killing religion))


On 21 Aug 2008, at 14:07, Pat Mathews wrote:


 I can't speak for other members of the list's silent majority. I,  
 for one, see another news article on some cult or its members run  
 amok,yawn, and hit Delete.

 Just thought you'd want to know.


What makes you think you're part of the list's silent majority?

Contradiction Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the  
arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons.


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Re: Off-topic., monotonous posting (was Child-killing religion)


On 21 Aug 2008, at 16:19, Bruce Bostwick wrote:

 I haven't weighed in on this yet because I'm sort of a newbie on this
 list, and there's probably history to this that I'm missing, but I'm
 very familiar with lists where I'm not especailly interested in  (or
 necessarily agree with) every post I get on every list.  Some are
 offensive, some are annoying, some I'm just not interested in, and I
 tune them out.  I'm used to doing that, it's no big deal.

Exactly. There are thousands of posts I haven't read on this list.  
There used to be some posters that I pretty much never read anything  
by but they aren't here any more. Nick's complaint is that because he  
is a list moderator he has to read all the posts. I guess that's just  
the price that comes with that job.



 As far as this particular subject goes, I'm probably at least as anti-
 religion as William, as far as my perception and opinions are
 concerned.  My opposition to religion is probably much more specific,
 as I've learned a great deal about the more socially damaging elements
 of organized religion and can name names and make pretty accurate
 guesses as to where the bodies are buried, but I tend to find anti-
 religious posts comforting rather than offensive, because they tell me
 someone is actually paying attention and noticing that there's
 something rotten in Denmark, so to speak.  Long posts that are mostly
 quoted content from other sources, maybe, maybe not, that's more of a
 technical rule, but the overall tone not only doesn't bother me, I
 welcome it.

I like to see posts denouncing the pernicious poisonous filth of  
religion too. I find posts about prayer and faith and suchlike  
offensive and repulsive and feel that opposing views deserve equal  
consideration.



 I find the meta-discussion considerably more distracting than the
 discussion itself, because the meta-discussion brings the question
 into play of silencing a contributor to the discussion, and that
 *always* involves some question of whether that person is being
 silenced for purely procedural reasons, which may be legitimate in
 some cases, or if the person is being silenced because the owner or
 moderator *personally* finds the subject matter of the discussion
 offensive, which is a more serious concern for me because it begins to
 hint at censorship, which I personally find far more offensive than
 specific points of view on organized religion.  William's objection
 seems to be that the decision to moderate him is coming at a point in
 the discussion that suggests the decision to moderate him is
 influenced by a disagreement with the subject matter as much as any
 technical or procedural reasons, if I understand his comments
 correctly.  If true, that's a very serious (and IMHO legitimate)
 concern that should be addressed by this meta-discussion if it
 continues.

There are no 'technical or procedural' reasons for objecting to my  
posts on the matter of religion: it's an attempt by some to silence  
the expression of views they don't like plain and simple.

Pernicious Maru


-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great  
evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. -  
Richard Dawkins



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Re: Apology (was Re: Off-topic., monotonous posting (was Child-killing religion))


On 21 Aug 2008, at 18:53, Olin Elliott wrote:

 The list has now been dominated by this discusion for much longer  
 than seems reasonable.  It is much more distracting than William's  
 posts.

It does seem an enormous amount of fuss about one or two posts per  
week. That's why I don't believe the reasons given for it.

Occam's Razor Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great  
evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. -  
Richard Dawkins



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Child-killing religion

http://ukpress.google.com/article/ALeqM5gOpmWyOXR5j94s1rzxyBpDv886JQ

Toddler 'starved to death by cult'
Aug 12, 2008
A toddler whose remains were found inside a suitcase in Philadelphia  
this spring was starved to death by members of a religious cult,  
including his mother, in part because he refused to say amen after  
meals, police said.

Ria Ramkissoon, the mother of Javon Thompson, was charged with first- 
degree murder in the boy's death, and Baltimore police said that three  
other members of a group called 1 Mind Ministries have also been  
charged with first-degree murder.

Police and Ramkissoon's family say the group is a cult.

Members did not seek medical care for Javon when he stopped breathing,  
and the boy died in his mother's arms, according to court documents  
that described police interviews with a confidential informant and two  
children.

He would have been about 15 months old when police say adults stopped  
feeding him in December 2006.

The power of faith Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Off-topic., monotonous posting (was Child-killing religion)


On 20 Aug 2008, at 15:12, Nick Arnett wrote:

 William,
 This is not a discussion list about religion

All is Brin.



 .  I don't think we've ever
 moderated anybody for frequent off-topic posting, but I'm growing
 increasingly concerned that many of your postings are a distraction  
 and
 offensive to some who might otherwise participate.

On 22 Dec 2003, at 04:03, Doug Pensinger wrote:

 With all due respect, if we stopped talking about everything that  
 makes someone upset, we may as well shut down the list because we  
 wouldn't even be able to discuss the weather.



 Others,including me, are
 just plain bored with it, since you haven't written anything new on  
 the
 topic for a long, long time.

Don't read it then. I certainly don't read every post to this list.

I'm growing increasingly concerned that you are trying to use your  
position on the list to intimidate and silence those with whom you do  
not agree and that this behaviour could be offensive to some who might  
otherwise participate.

Watchmen  Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Off-topic., monotonous posting (was Child-killing religion)


On 20 Aug 2008, at 16:22, Nick Arnett wrote:

 On Wed, Aug 20, 2008 at 8:10 AM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:


 Don't read it then. I certainly don't read every post to this list.


 Bzzzt.  As you know, I am one of the list managers and as a group,  
 we do and
 we will read all the messages.


Maybe you should stop being a list manager if it's too taxing for you.




 I'm growing increasingly concerned that you are trying to use your
 position on the list to intimidate and silence those with whom you do
 not agree and that this behaviour could be offensive to some who  
 might
 otherwise participate.


 Gee, who could have seen that response coming?

 And... baloney.

 Your anti-religious postings are trivial.  That's the problem.   
 Science
 versus religion is a perfectly reasonable topic here.  That's not what
 you're offering us.


Those are your opinions with which I disagree.

QED Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Off-topic., monotonous posting (was Child-killing religion)


On 20 Aug 2008, at 16:13, Olin Elliott wrote:

 By that description, 99% of the postings are off topic.



And I'm not even the most frequent poster!


Agenda  Maru


  The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product  
of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still  
primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. - Albert  
Einstein

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/



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Weekly Chat Reminder


The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over nine
years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set
up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established
a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat
technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but
the chat goes on... and we want more recruits!

Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've
been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined
today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less
politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion.
We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly...
-(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown.

The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM
Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time.
There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight
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just wait around a while for the next person to show up!

If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to
do is send your web browser to:

  http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/

..And you can connect directly from the NEW new web
interface!

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG
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Apology (was Re: Off-topic., monotonous posting (was Child-killing religion))


On 20 Aug 2008, at 15:12, Nick Arnett wrote:

 William,
 This is not a discussion list about religion.  I don't think we've  
 ever
 moderated anybody for frequent off-topic posting, but I'm growing
 increasingly concerned that many of your postings are a distraction  
 and
 offensive to some who might otherwise participate.  Others,including  
 me, are
 just plain bored with it, since you haven't written anything new on  
 the
 topic for a long, long time.


I think it's clear than Nick's behaviour here is quite inappropriate  
and deserves censure in the strongest terms. What happened to IAAMOAC?

It's clear Nick doesn't like my opinions. It's even clearer that he's  
abusing his position in the most egregious manner and should apologise  
to me and the list for his outburst.

Civil Maru


-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Sanity prevails

2008-08-17 Thread William T Goodall


On 16 Aug 2008, at 17:29, Bruce Bostwick wrote:

 One of the articles I saw on this mentioned that at least one of the
 textbooks in question (the one quoted as saying if (scientific)
 conclusions contradict the Word of God, the conclusions are wrong)
 was published by Bob Jones University.  Those would definitely seem to
 be the same guys.

 It's worth noting that the entire *curriculum* taught by
 fundamentalist-based schools and homeschooling systems (most of them
 use the same curriculum, in most cases either A Beka or PACE) is
 considered so substandard by accredited university standards that most
 fundamentalist Christian school courses aren't accepted for credit
 in accredited universities.  This is a widespread enough problem that
 there is a whole parallel economy of fundamentalist-affiliated
 universities like Regent, Bob Jones, Liberty, and others, and even
 alternate track *accreditation* for those universities (since their
 *own* courses are often not accepted for transfer to mainstream
 universities, likewise for the reason that most of them are so
 appallingly substandard as to not be worth the paper they're printed
 on), just to provide a secondary education for the kids unfortunate
 enough to have been dragged through a fundamentalist K12 program.
 It's a huge problem, and is very much underreported in this country.

 From the A Beka Book website:

World History and Cultures in Christian Perspective
This well-researched text stands on the conviction that God is the  
Creator of the world and the Controller of history.

The text builds a solid foundation of ancient history, tracing man's  
history back to the Garden of Eden. It gives a fine presentation of  
neglected Asian and African cultures in a unique ancient-to-modern  
style, helping the students to recognize other peoples and cultures.  
An in-depth study of the Greco-Roman culture lays the groundwork for  
an exciting section on medieval history. The last section brings the  
student to the very doorstep of current history and vividly depicts  
world events in light of God's master plan.

Since man's actions are a product of his thoughts, the history of  
ideas is emphasized, rather than only political events and economic  
conditions. Students are given a Christian perspective on language,  
chronology, prehistoric times, art, music, revolutionism,  
evolutionism, socialism, Communism, humanism, liberalism, and much more.


Colorful maps, time lines, illustrations, and photographs help to make  
the study of history both interesting and rewarding.

[...]

Science of the Physical Creation
Atmosphere, weather, oceanography, earthquakes, volcanoes, rocks, and  
fossils are just some of the earth-science topics of this outstanding  
text. The geology section includes a good refutation of the principle  
of uniformity and other ideas of evolutionary philosophers. Basic  
concepts of chemistry are presented in a simple and yet accurate  
manner, and physics concepts are applied to lasers, computers, and  
other electronic devices.

[...]

Biology: God's Living Creation--New Edition
Truly nonevolutionary in philosophy, spirit, and sequence of study.  
Begins with the familiar, tangible things of nature with special  
emphasis on the structure and function; and concludes with God's  
amazing design at the cellular and chemical level.

Ties abstract concepts to concrete examples through clear, easy-to- 
read explanations. Lays a firm foundation for future studies in  
chemistry, physics, and other fields while teaching students the  
Christian perspective of science. With the academic knowledge gained  
in the text, students will also find a greater appreciation for God's  
physical creation and an increased interest in science.

Lists key concepts at the head of each chapter, Includes pronunciation  
helps, key-words in bold, vivid photographs, and full-color diagrams.  
Includes section reviews and a chapter review for each chapter to  
reinforce learning and help students prepare for tests. Includes a set  
of TransVision overlays of the human body to show at a glance the  
anatomical relationships of the body's systems.


Investigates such fields of study as botany, zoology, microbiology,  
physiology, cytology, genetics, and ecology. Reflects the latest  
advances in man's understanding of living things without neglecting a  
foundation in the basics.

These people are mad Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Debunking bullshit is a thankless task.

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Sanity prevails

2008-08-16 Thread William T Goodall

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/13/BAQT129NMG.DTLtype=printable

(08-12) 17:25 PDT SAN FRANCISCO -- A federal judge says the  
University of California can deny course credit to applicants from  
Christian high schools whose textbooks declare the Bible infallible  
and reject evolution.
Rejecting claims of religious discrimination and stifling of free  
expression, U.S. District Judge James Otero of Los Angeles said UC's  
review committees cited legitimate reasons for rejecting the texts -  
not because they contained religious viewpoints, but because they  
omitted important topics in science and history and failed to teach  
critical thinking.

Otero's ruling Friday, which focused on specific courses and texts,  
followed his decision in March that found no anti-religious bias in  
the university's system of reviewing high school classes. Now that the  
lawsuit has been dismissed, a group of Christian schools has appealed  
Otero's rulings to the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San  
Francisco.

It appears the UC is attempting to secularize private religious  
schools, attorney Jennifer Monk of Advocates for Faith and Freedom  
said Tuesday. Her clients include the Association of Christian Schools  
International, two Southern California high schools and several  
students.

Charles Robinson, the university's vice president for legal affairs,  
said the ruling confirms that UC may apply the same admissions  
standards to all students and to all high schools without regard to  
their religious affiliations. What the plaintiffs seek, he said, is a  
religious exemption from regular admissions standards.

The suit, filed in 2005, challenged UC's review of high school courses  
taken by would-be applicants to the 10-campus system. Most students  
qualify by taking an approved set of college preparatory classes;  
students whose courses lack UC approval can remain eligible by scoring  
well in those subjects on the Scholastic Assessment Test.

Christian schools in the suit accused the university of rejecting  
courses that include any religious viewpoint, any instance of God's  
guidance of history, or any alternative ... to evolution.

But Otero said in March that the university has approved many courses  
containing religious material and viewpoints, including some that use  
such texts as Chemistry for Christian Schools and Biology: God's  
Living Creation, or that include scientific discussions of  
creationism as well as evolution.

UC denies credit to courses that rely largely or entirely on material  
stressing supernatural over historic or scientific explanations,  
though it has approved such texts as supplemental reading, the judge  
said.

For example, in Friday's ruling, he upheld the university's rejection  
of a history course called Christianity's Influence on America.  
According to a UC professor on the course review committee, the  
primary text, published by Bob Jones University, instructs that the  
Bible is the unerring source for analysis of historical events and  
evaluates historical figures based on their religious motivations.

Another rejected text, Biology for Christian Schools, declares on  
the first page that if (scientific) conclusions contradict the Word  
of God, the conclusions are wrong, Otero said.

He also said the Christian schools presented no evidence that the  
university's decisions were motivated by hostility to religion.

UC attorney Christopher Patti said Tuesday that the judge assessed the  
review process accurately.

We evaluate the courses to see whether they prepare these kids to  
come to college at UC, he said. There was no evidence that these  
students were in fact denied the ability to come to the university.

But Monk, the plaintiffs' lawyer, said Otero had used the wrong legal  
standard and had given the university too much deference.

Science courses from a religious perspective are not approved, she  
said. If it comes from certain publishers or from a religious  
perspective, UC simply denies them.

Invisible Friends Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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True Love

2008-08-13 Thread William T Goodall

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2008/aug/13/medicalresearch.medicaladvicefortravellers/print

Taking the contraceptive pill can lead a woman to choose the wrong
partner, the findings of a study published today suggest.
The pill is thought to disrupt an instinctive mechanism that brings
people with complementary genes and immune systems together.

By passing on a wide-ranging set of immune system genes, they increase
their chances of having a healthy child that is not vulnerable to
infection.

Couples with different genes are also less likely to experience
fertility problems or miscarriages.

Experts believe women are naturally attracted to men with immune
system genes that differ their own because of their smell.

The major histocompatability complex (MHC) cluster of genes, which
helps build proteins involved in the body's immune response, also
influences smell signals called pheromones.

Although pheromones may be almost unnoticeable at a conscious level,
they can exert a potent effect.

A man's pheromonal odour is partly determined by his MHC. From a
woman's point of view, a man with an alluring smell is also likely to
have suitable immune system genes.

The new research provides evidence that the contraceptive pill can
upset this process.

Researchers asked 100 women to sniff six male body odour samples from
97 volunteers and say which they preferred, with tests carried out
both before and after the women had started taking the pill.

The results showed that the preferences of women who began using the
contraceptive pill shifted towards men with genetically similar
odours, the University of Liverpool's Dr Craig Roberts, who led the
study, said.

Not only could MHC similarity in couples lead to fertility problems,
it could also ultimately lead to the breakdown of relationships when
women stop using the contraceptive pill, as odour perception plays a
significant role in maintaining attraction to partners.

Being on the pill simulates a state of pregnancy, which may reverse a
woman's reaction to male odours.

Finding particular men sexually attractive is not so important once a
woman is expecting a child.

Romance Maru

--
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant
market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer

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Weekly Chat Reminder

2008-08-13 Thread William T Goodall


The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over nine
years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set
up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established
a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat
technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but
the chat goes on... and we want more recruits!

Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've
been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined
today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less
politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion.
We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly...
-(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown.

The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM
Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time.
There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight
hours after the start time. If no-one is there when you arrive
just wait around a while for the next person to show up!

If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to
do is send your web browser to:

  http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/

..And you can connect directly from the NEW new web
interface!

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG
 is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up.
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The Nigerian man who has 86 wives

2008-08-07 Thread William T Goodall

http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/mpapps/pagetools/print/news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/7547148.stm

By Andrew Walker
BBC News, Bida, Nigeria

Nigerian Mohammed Bello Abubakar, 84, has advised other men not to
follow his example and marry 86 women.

The former teacher and Muslim preacher, who lives in Niger State with
his wives and at least 170 children, says he is able to cope only with
the help of God.

A man with 10 wives would collapse and die, but my own power is given
by Allah. That is why I have been able to control 86 of them, he told
the BBC.

He says his wives have sought him out because of his reputation as a
healer.

I don't go looking for them, they come to me. I will consider the
fact that God has asked me to do it and I will just marry them.

But such claims have alienated the Islamic authorities in Nigeria, who
have branded his family a cult.

When you marry a man with 86 wives you know he knows how to look after
them

Most Muslim scholars agree that a man is allowed to have four wives,
as long as he can treat them equally.

But Mr Bello Abubakar says there is no punishment stated in the Koran
for having more than four wives.

To my understanding the Koran does not place a limit and it is up to
what your own power, your own endowment and ability allows, he says.

God did not say what the punishment should be for a man who has more
than four wives, but he was specific about the punishment for
fornication and adultery.

'Order from God'

As Mr Bello Abubakar emerged from his compound to speak to the BBC,
his wives and children broke out into a praise song.

Most of his wives are less than a quarter of his age - and many are
younger than some of his own children.

The wives the BBC spoke to say they met Mr Bello Abubakar when they
went to him to seek help for various illnesses, which they say he cured.

As soon as I met him the headache was gone, says Sharifat Bello
Abubakar, who was 25 at the time and Mr Bello Abubakar 74.

God told me it was time to be his wife. Praise be to God I am his
wife now.

Ganiat Mohammed Bello has been married to the man everyone calls
Baba for 20 years.

When she was in secondary school her mother took her for a
consultation with Mr Bello Abubakar and he proposed afterwards.

I said I couldn't marry an older man, but he said it was directly an
order from God, she says.

She married another man but they divorced and she returned to Mr Bello
Abubakar.

I am now the happiest woman on earth. When you marry a man with 86
wives you know he knows how to look after them, she said.

Mr Bello Abubakar and his wives do not work and he has no visible
means of supporting such a large family.

He refuses to say how he makes enough money to pay for the huge cost
of feeding and clothing so many people.

Every mealtime they cook three 12kg bags of rice which costs $915
(£457) every day.

It's all from God, he says.

Other residents of Bida, the village where he lives in the northern
Nigerian state, say they do not know how he supports the family.

According to one of his wives, Mr Bello Abubakar sometimes asks his
children to go and beg for 200 naira ($1.69, £0.87), which if they all
did so would bring in about $290 (£149).

Most of his wives live in a squalid, unfinished house in Bida; others
live in his house in Lagos, Nigeria's commercial capital.

He refuses to allow any of his family or other devotees to take
medicine and says he does not believe that malaria exists.

As you sit here if you have any illness I can see it and just remove
it, he says.
But not everyone can be cured and one of his wives, Hafsat Bello
Mohammed, says two of her children have died.

They were sick and we told God and God said their time has come.

She says that most of the wives see Mr Bello Abubakar as next in line
from the Prophet Muhammad.

Indeed, he claims the Prophet Muhammad speaks to him personally and
gives detailed descriptions of his experiences.

It is a serious claim for a Muslim to make.

This is heresy, he is a heretic, says Ustaz Abubakar Siddique, an
imam of Abuja's Central Mosque.

God's will Maru

The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product
of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still
primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. - Albert
Einstein

--
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

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Re: The Nigerian man who has 86 wives

2008-08-07 Thread William T Goodall


On 8 Aug 2008, at 01:27, Ronn! Blankenship wrote:

 At 07:23 PM Thursday 8/7/2008, William T Goodall wrote:

 When you marry a man with 86 wives you know he knows how to look  
 after
 them



 Viagra Maru


Obviously if God hadn't meant men to have 86 wives he wouldn't have  
given us Viagra :-)

Or custard Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great  
evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. -  
Richard Dawkins



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Weekly Chat Reminder

2008-08-06 Thread William T Goodall


The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over nine
years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set
up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established
a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat
technologies, and even casts of regulars over the years, but
the chat goes on... and we want more recruits!

Whether you're an active poster or a lurker, whether you've
been a member of the list from the beginning or just joined
today, we would really like for you to join us. We have less
politics, more Uplift talk, and more light-hearted discussion.
We're non-fattening and 100% environmentally friendly...
-(_() Though sometimes marshmallows do get thrown.

The Weekly Brin-L chat is scheduled for Wednesday 3 PM
Eastern/2 PM Central time in the US, or 7 PM Greenwich time.
There's usually somebody there to talk to for at least eight
hours after the start time. If no-one is there when you arrive
just wait around a while for the next person to show up!

If you want to attend, it's really easy now. All you have to
do is send your web browser to:

  http://wtgab.demon.co.uk/~brinl/mud/

..And you can connect directly from the NEW new web
interface!

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG
 is away on holiday, at least it shows the server is still up.
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Long wait (was Re: The First Event)

2008-08-06 Thread William T Goodall


On 5 Aug 2008, at 22:57, David Hobby wrote:

 Hi.  My name is David, and I read Peter F. Hamilton...

 I'm not sure why, but I read all of the last series,
 as well as Dreaming Void.  I somehow remember that DV
 was the start of a trilogy, in which case it's a long
 wait.  (On the plus side, it seems to have kept a lot
 of characters from the previous series.)


It is a trilogy, and the second volume is published in October. The  
third will presumably be published in late 2009. Speaking of long  
waits the new volume of George R R Martin's _A Song of Ice and Fire_  
is now pushed back to April 2009, and that's quite provisional since  
he hasn't finished writing it yet.

Reread Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant  
market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer


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Re: Religion kills

2008-08-05 Thread William T Goodall


On 5 Aug 2008, at 07:36, Dave Land wrote:

 On Aug 4, 2008, at 2:55 PM, William T Goodall wrote:

 On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:42, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
 i actually agree with william about religion, except i try to be
 less intolerant and antagonistic.

 And where does that get you?

 Well, for one thing, many people on this list find Jon's posts  
 pleasant
 and courteous, even when they are challenging. Jon, like many others
 here, consider IAAMOAC when they post. It's why personal attacks are  
 to
 be avoided: they divide the community, rather than build it.

 Abrasive and monomaniacal posts are not pleasant and courteous,  
 whether
 they come from someone defending or attacking religion.


It's true that some of the religionists on this list can be very  
tiresome but I just cheerfully carry on countering their nonsense.

Burdens Maru
-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)

2008-08-05 Thread William T Goodall


On 5 Aug 2008, at 05:07, Nick Arnett wrote:

 On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 2:01 PM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:



 I'm not sanctimonious like some people


 And just how does that manage also to leave able to freely, so  
 freely and
 urgently, share your views on religion.

 Sanctimonious: Making a show of being morally better than others.


I'm not making a show of anything.

Explanation Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Alastair Reynolds

2008-08-05 Thread William T Goodall


On 5 Aug 2008, at 12:55, Martin Lewis wrote:

 On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 12:45 AM, Olin Elliott [EMAIL PROTECTED]  
 wrote:
 Has anyone here read Alastair Reynolds -- Revelation Space, Chasm  
 City, Redemption Ark.  I've been reading his books for the past  
 few months and really loving them, but he doesn't seem to be that  
 well known among science fiction readers I've chatted with since I  
 started.

 I enjoyed the first couple, particulary CC, but he isn't a writer who
 has ever evolved. Here are a couple of reviews of some of his more
 recent ones:

 http://www.sfsite.com/02b/cr194.htm

 http://www.strangehorizons.com/reviews/2007/06/the_prefect_by_.shtml


Many of the reviews of his latest novel indicate a new direction.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/House-Suns-Gollancz-Alastair-Reynolds/dp/0575077174/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8s=booksqid=1217954811sr=8-1

Opinions Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the  
arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons.


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Re: Religion kills


On 4 Aug 2008, at 15:17, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
  i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you?

Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way.

Best Defence Maru


--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Religion kills


On 4 Aug 2008, at 17:35, Nick Arnett wrote:

 On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 9:10 AM, Mauro Diotallevi  
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

 calling William himself indecent has generally not
 been the kind of thing accepted by this list in the past.


 indecent of you *is* criticizing the action, not the person (v.  
 saying
 you are an indecent person).  I try to always stay conscious of the
 distinction...  it is a compassionate one, I believe.


That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd expect from a  
supporter of baby-killing religion.

Unminced words Maru


  The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product  
of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still  
primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. - Albert  
Einstein

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/



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Re: Religion kills


On 4 Aug 2008, at 20:49, Jon Louis Mann wrote:

 i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did
 religion do to you?
 jon

 Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way.
 Best Defence Maru
 William T Goodall

 then why are you so angry?
 jon

I'm not angry. What makes you think that?

Mildly irritated Maru

--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Religion kills


On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:09, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
   is it possible that there some of the religious faithful actually  
 try to practice peace, love and brotherhood?

It doesn't matter what they try - religion is intrinsically evil  
because it promotes lies and superstitious bullshit. The fact that  
some people are nicey-nicey and sugar-candy about it doesn't make a  
whit of difference to that. It may be worse than the transparently  
wicked forms of religion because  they deceive more people that way.

Gilded turd Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Religion kills


On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:11, Jon Louis Mann wrote:

 I'm not angry. What makes you think that?
 Mildly irritated Maru
 William T Goodall

 your manner of personal attacks.  i don't know anything about you so  
 i have to base my impression of you on what you say online...
 jon

I haven't attacked anyone.

No smoking crater Maru
-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Religion kills


On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:34, Alberto Monteiro wrote:


 Jon Louis Mann wrote:

 That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd
 expect from a supporter of baby-killing religion.
 Unminced words Maru
 William T Goodall

 lighten up, william; this was a tragedy. no one here is defending
 what happened, so you don't need to attack any of your fellow
 brinlisters as supporters of baby-killing religion, just because
 they are deluded enough to believe in god. i hope you are not one of
 those people who consider all jews to be baby killers?  is it
 possible that there some of the religious faithful actually try to
 practice peace, love and brotherhood?  jon

 William has a point here.

 There are religions that fight baby-killers, by saying that
 babies have a soul, and should not be aborted or be the subject
 of euthanasia.

 There are _other_ religions that promote baby-killers, by
 devaluating baby-girls and making it ok to abort girl fetuses
 or to abandon baby girls.

 AFAIK, those that died in the tragedy subscribed to the second
 type of religion.

 Now, let's go through the whole spectrum of human life, and see
 which religions or atheistic morality systems are more or less
 protective of humanity. I predict that a few religions would
 be more human than most atheistic morality systems.



A subtle flaw in your reasoning is that you have to first pick a  
morality system by which to judge the others.

Relativism Maru
-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Compassion (was Re: Religion kills)


On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:34, Nick Arnett wrote:

 On Mon, Aug 4, 2008 at 12:42 PM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 wrote:


 On 4 Aug 2008, at 15:17, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
 i have to wonder why you are so angry; what did religion do to you?

 Nothing yet - and I'd like to keep it that way.


 I didn't think that your words were indecent because they attacked  
 religion,
 it was the lack of compassion I saw in them.

 Seriously, William, what about compassion?  Do you have or wish to  
 have any
 compassion for the victims of this event?  What do you think of  
 compassion
 in general, outside of the context of religion?

 I'm not trying to argue for religion -- your beliefs are your  
 business and
 you are welcome to them.  I am curious what you think about  
 compassion,
 however.  Does it not apply in this situation?  Ever?

I'm not sanctimonious like some people so I'm not going to discuss my  
compassion.

And neither should you Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Religion kills


On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Jon Louis Mann wrote:



 A subtle flaw in your reasoning is that you have to first
 pick a
 morality system by which to judge the others.
 Relativism Maru
 William T Goodall

 what is your morality system, william?

Me.

--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: The First Event


On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote:
 Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the  
 history
 of everything.


If it happened it wasn't impossible.

Logic Maru


-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Religion kills


On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:55, Olin Elliott wrote:

[snip]

Amen Maru


--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
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Re: Religion kills


On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:23, Jon Louis Mann wrote:

 what is your morality system, william?

 Me.
 William T Goodall

 so essentialy you are putting yourself on the same level as an  
 omnipotent, benevolent, compassionate deity?

No, because I actually exist :-)

Important distinction Maru


-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

I think a case can be made that faith is one of the world's great  
evils, comparable to the smallpox virus but harder to eradicate. -  
Richard Dawkins



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Re: Religion kills


On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:31, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
 what do you call:
 That's the kind of hair-splitting sophistry I'd
 expect from a
 supporter of baby-killing religion.
 Unmixed words Mari
 William T Goodall

A diagnosis?

Helpful Maru


--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Religion kills


On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:42, Jon Louis Mann wrote:
 i actually agree with william about religion, except i try to be  
 less intolerant and antagonistic.

And where does that get you?

Appeasement Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: The First Event


On 4 Aug 2008, at 22:43, Wayne Eddy wrote:


 - Original Message -
 From: William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED]


 On 4 Aug 2008, at 21:59, Wayne Eddy wrote:
 Seems to me that something impossible happened at least once in the
 history
 of everything.


 If it happened it wasn't impossible.


 But logically, that means that it is possible something (Say a  
 purple ball)
 could be created from nothing in your kitchen tomorrow.

That hasn't happened.

Difference Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Theists cannot be trusted as they believe that right and wrong are the  
arbitrary proclamations of invisible demons.


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Re: Top-posting...


On 5 Aug 2008, at 00:01, Charlie Bell wrote:

 I'm noticing a few people replying at the top of the email they're
 responding to. This is a polite reminder that it's convention on this
 list to reply *below* the quoted text, and only quote relevant text.
 It maintains the flow of conversation by email, and follows the order
 in which we normally read in English.

 Thanks!


It's not actually stated in here

http://www.mccmedia.com/brin-l/etiquette.htm

although it should be.

Petition Maru


--  
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant  
market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer


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Re: Alastair Reynolds


On 5 Aug 2008, at 00:45, Olin Elliott wrote:

 Has anyone here read Alastair Reynolds -- Revelation Space, Chasm  
 City, Redemption Ark.  I've been reading his books for the past few  
 months and really loving them, but he doesn't seem to be that well  
 known among science fiction readers I've chatted with since I started.


I've read and enjoyed the three you mention. I got bogged down in  
_Absolution Gap_  and haven't finished it yet. Maybe next year :-)

 I'm also reading A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge.

That's very good. I recently read _Rainbow's End_ which I didn't think  
was as good. I'm currently reading Michael Flynn's _In The Country of  
the Blind_ which I bought in 1990 or so. I had read bits of it in  
Analog previously. I just ordered Dozois' _The Year's Best Science  
Fiction 25_ from Amazon.com [1] and hope to finish reading #20 this  
year so I'll only be five years behind on that (21, 22, 23 and 24 are  
on the shelf).

[1] It cost £13.23 inc delivery from the USA to the UK and it costs  
£22.50 with free delivery from Amazon.co.uk. It takes a couple of  
weeks longer from the USA, but I'm not in a hurry :-)

Not enough hours Maru
-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

I guess I would describe Serenity as a sci-fi action drama about the  
price of freedom. Or, Citizen Kane with spaceships. I could go either  
way. - Joss Whedon


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Religion kills

2008-08-03 Thread William T Goodall

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/7539509.stm

India temple stampede 'kills 140'
A stampede at a hilltop temple in northern India has killed at least  
140 people, police say.

The stampede happened at the Nainadevi temple in the Bilsapur district  
of Himachal Pradesh state, during a nine-day Hindu religious festival.

Police said the victims included 40 children. Fifty more people were  
hurt and have been taken to hospital.

The Nainadevi temple is about 160km (100 miles) from the Himalayan  
hill town of Shimla.

Most of the worshippers are believed to be from the neighbouring state  
of Punjab.

Crowds had gathered at the temple to celebrate the festival of Shravan  
Navratras, which began on Saturday and runs until 11 August.

At least 50,000 people were expected to attend the festivities, says  
the BBC's Damian Grammaticas in Delhi.


Hindu worshippers were climbing up a 4-km (2.5-mile) trail leading to  
a hill-top temple, chanting and singing hymns, when the stampede  
happened.

Our correspondent says a rain shelter beside the narrow mountain  
collapsed during poor weather conditions, causing widespread panic  
amid fears of a landslide.

Hundreds were then crushed together in a tiny space where they were  
unable to breathe.

Children lost their grip on their mothers' hands and were crushed  
under the feet of scared pilgrims attempting to leap over broken  
railings to save themselves, witnesses said.

Television footage showed the narrow path strewn with torn clothes and  
bags with flowers and offerings.

Survivors gathered at nearby hospitals looking for injured relatives.
The chief minister of Himachal Pradesh is said to have offered  
compensation to those injured in the stampede, and to the families of  
those killed.

Indian temples are regularly hit by stampedes, as huge crowds of Hindu  
devotees flock to make offerings at festival times.

There have been at least three fatal stampedes in the country so far  
during 2008, although the numbers killed were far smaller than in the  
latest incident.

Dangerous Addiction Maru
-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
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Re: Religion kills

2008-08-03 Thread William T Goodall


On 3 Aug 2008, at 18:55, Nick Arnett wrote:

 Children dead, not even cremated yet... And you're already blaming
 religion for something caused by fear of an avalanche! Indecent of
 you, really. Would it be okay if it had been a food line? At least you
 could give people a chance to grieve a little before blaming. That
 would be slightly humane.


I'm not the one who supports child-killing religion you inhumane  
hypocrite.

Monstrous Evil Maru
-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Debunking bullshit is a thankless task.

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Re: Religion kills

2008-08-03 Thread William T Goodall


On 3 Aug 2008, at 20:21, Jon Louis Mann wrote:

 Nick Arnett wrote:

 Children dead, not even cremated yet... And you're
 already blaming
 religion for something caused by fear of an avalanche!
 Indecent of
 you, really. Would it be okay if it had been a food
 line? At least you
 could give people a chance to grieve a little before
 blaming. That
 would be slightly humane.

 I'm not the one who supports child-killing religion you
 inhumane
 hypocrite.
 Monstrous Evil Maru

 hold on, i hate religion as much as anyone, but this was panic.  it  
 happens on the hadj,

The hajj is another abominable superstition that kills people. During  
the 2006 Hajj  362 pilgrims died.


 plane crashes, ships at sea, and rock concerts.  as religions go,  
 hinduism is not as evil as some others.
 jon


 There have been at least three fatal stampedes in the country so far
 during 2008, although the numbers killed were far smaller than in the
 latest incident.

If it weren't for superstitious religious nonsense they wouldn't have  
been there in the first place. And  fatal stampedes  happen several  
times every year at religious events so ignorance isn't an excuse.


Culpable  Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Genesis


On 30 Jul 2008, at 15:46, Alberto Monteiro wrote:

 Dan M wrote:

 There is no evidence that, if the United States decided
 to fade away as continental Europe is doing, instead of
 having a ZPG birth rate, (...)

 Brazil is fading away too. Last count is 1.8 births/female.



Below the UK and France but well above Thailand (1.5) and South Korea  
(1.1).

Patterns Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
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This message was sent automatically using launchd. But even if WTG
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Re: Genesis


On 30 Jul 2008, at 19:31, Dan M wrote:



 -Original Message-
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:brin-l- 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] On
 Behalf Of William T Goodall
 Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2008 10:30 AM
 To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
 Subject: Re: Genesis


 On 30 Jul 2008, at 15:46, Alberto Monteiro wrote:

 Dan M wrote:

 There is no evidence that, if the United States decided
 to fade away as continental Europe is doing, instead of
 having a ZPG birth rate, (...)

 Brazil is fading away too. Last count is 1.8 births/female.



 Below the UK and France but well above Thailand (1.5) and South Korea
 (1.1).

 Patterns Maru

 It's an interesting topic.  The CIA factbook has estimates for 2008
 (estimates most likely based on 2007 and 2006 data) at

 https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2127ra
 nk.html

 http://tinyurl.com/3yur88

 It has the UK at 1.6, falling below Brazil.which it gives at 1.86.

 The UK number may not be an outlandish estimate because the UN has  
 the UK at
 1.7 between 2000 and 2005.  I'm not arguing with Brazil's number,  
 but it
 does represent a big drop from 2000-2005: (2.35).

http://www.statistics.gov.uk/cci/nugget.asp?id=369

The provisional Total Fertility Rate (TFR) for 2007 gives an average  
of 1.91 children per woman in England and Wales. This is an increase  
from 1.86 in 2006 and is the sixth consecutive annual increase from a  
low point in 2001 where the TFR was 1.63. The last time the TFR  
exceeded 1.91 was 34 years ago in 1973 when it was 2.00.

The number of live births in England and Wales increased for the sixth  
successive year in 2007. 

Not the CIA Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: Genesis


On 30 Jul 2008, at 20:41, Alberto Monteiro wrote:

 William T Goodall quoted:

 The provisional Total Fertility Rate (TFR) for 2007 gives an
 average  of 1.91 children per woman in England and Wales. This is an
 increase  from 1.86 in 2006 and is the sixth consecutive annual
 increase from a  low point in 2001 where the TFR was 1.63. The last
 time the TFR  exceeded 1.91 was 34 years ago in 1973 when it was  
 2.00.

 The number of live births in England and Wales increased for the
 sixth  successive year in 2007. 

 The scary thing is that, probably, those 0.5 extra kids are
 muslims...


Actually mostly children of Polish and other Eastern European  
immigrants and Catholic.

Borscht  Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Debunking bullshit is a thankless task.

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Amusing quiz

2008-07-28 Thread William T Goodall

http://www.infoworld.com/tools/quiz/news/2008/programmingiqtest/programming-iq-quiz-1.php


Your score is 80.
Of the 53 people who have completed the test so far, 2 scored higher  
and 51 scored the same or lower.

Forgetful Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

There's no chance that the iPhone is going to get any significant  
market share. No chance - Steve Ballmer


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Re: memes, or genes...

2008-07-27 Thread William T Goodall


On 27 Jul 2008, at 04:58, Ronn! Blankenship wrote:

 At 09:47 PM Saturday 7/26/2008, William T Goodall wrote:


 Nonsense only requires one answer.


 As does knee-jerk prejudice.


Like the knee-jerk 'religion is not sick twisted poisonous pernicious  
evil filth' prejudice I encounter on this list?

Clear view Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: memes, or genes...


On 26 Jul 2008, at 03:25, Bruce Bostwick wrote:

 There's one particular domestic religious movement here in this
 country that is presently doing exactly that.  It's probably not the
 first one most people might think.  Google quiverfull for more info,
 the first half dozen hits will tell you a lot.


Is there no limit to the depraved wickedness of the religionists?


  The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product  
of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still  
primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. - Albert  
Einstein

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/



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Re: memes, or genes...


On 26 Jul 2008, at 16:49, Doug Pensinger wrote:

 William  wrote:


 Is there no limit to the depraved wickedness of the religionists?

 What's wicked about bringing children into the world that you have  
 the
 resources to support and nurture?


The quiverfull beliefs are vile and perverted.

Quiverfull authors such as Pride, Provan, and Hess extend this idea  
to mean that if one child is a blessing, then each additional child is  
likewise a blessing and not something to be viewed as economically  
burdensome or unaffordable. When a couple seeks to control family size  
via birth control they are thus rejecting God's blessings he might  
otherwise give, and possibly breaking his commandment to be fruitful  
and multiply. [1]

[...]

Thus, the key practice of a Quiverfull married couple is to not use  
any form of birth control and to maintain continual openness to  
children, to the possibility ofconception, during routine sexual  
intercourse irrespective of timing of the month during the ovulation  
cycle. This is considered by Quiverfull adherents to be a principal,  
if not the primary, aspect of their Christian calling in submission to  
the lordship of Christ.

A healthy young Quiverfull couple might thereby have a baby every two  
years, meaning that as many as 10 children or more might be born  
during a couple's fertile years.  [Ibid]

[...]

Quiverfull authors and adherents advocate for and seek to model a  
return to Biblical Patriarchy. Families are typically arranged with  
the mother as a homemaker under theauthority of her husband with the  
children under the authority of both. Parents seek to largely shelter  
their children from aspects of culture they as parents deem  
adversarial to their type of conservative Christianity.

Additionally, Quiverfull families are strongly inclined toward  
homeschooling and homesteading in a rural area.  [Ibid]


[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quiverfull


-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: memes, or genes...


On 26 Jul 2008, at 17:24, Pat Mathews wrote:


 Actually, that is standard Roman Catholic teaching as well. Except  
 that a lot of American Catholics don't do it.


The Catholics allow natural family planning. The quiverfulls forbid any.

Lemmings Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: memes, or genes...


On 27 Jul 2008, at 00:31, Ronn! Blankenship wrote:

 At 11:21 AM Saturday 7/26/2008, William T Goodall wrote:

 On 26 Jul 2008, at 16:49, Doug Pensinger wrote:

 William  wrote:


 Is there no limit to the depraved wickedness of the religionists?

 What's wicked about bringing children into the world that you have
 the
 resources to support and nurture?


 The quiverfull beliefs are vile and perverted.

 Quiverfull authors such as Pride, Provan, and Hess extend this idea
 to mean that if one child is a blessing, then each additional child  
 is
 likewise a blessing and not something to be viewed as economically
 burdensome or unaffordable. When a couple seeks to control family  
 size
 via birth control they are thus rejecting God's blessings he might
 otherwise give, and possibly breaking his commandment to be fruitful
 and multiply. [1]

Having as many children as physically possible without regard for the  
ability to provide for them or give them the necessary support as  
required by the norms of the society one lives in is irresponsible and  
wicked. Shoes, college funds, that kind of thing.


 [...]

 Thus, the key practice of a Quiverfull married couple is to not use
 any form of birth control and to maintain continual openness to
 children, to the possibility ofconception, during routine sexual
 intercourse irrespective of timing of the month during the ovulation
 cycle. This is considered by Quiverfull adherents to be a principal,
 if not the primary, aspect of their Christian calling in submission  
 to
 the lordship of Christ.

 A healthy young Quiverfull couple might thereby have a baby every two
 years, meaning that as many as 10 children or more might be born
 during a couple's fertile years.  [Ibid]

Weird kinky sexual perversions about sex/breeding between consenting  
adults are OK but if the side-effect is producing children who cannot  
be properly provided for then it is evil. It's always men who lead  
these 'barefoot and pregnant' cults.


 [...]

 Quiverfull authors and adherents advocate for and seek to model a
 return to Biblical Patriarchy. Families are typically arranged with
 the mother as a homemaker under theauthority of her husband with the
 children under the authority of both. Parents seek to largely shelter
 their children from aspects of culture they as parents deem
 adversarial to their type of conservative Christianity.

 Additionally, Quiverfull families are strongly inclined toward
 homeschooling and homesteading in a rural area.  [Ibid]


Patriarchy is evil. Matriarchy is evil. Sexism is evil. Racism is  
evil. Any system of belief that holds that a person's role in life is  
determined by their gender, colour, or sexual orientation rather than  
their own needs and abilities is evil. Attempting to indoctrinate  
children into cults is evil.




 You quoted the beliefs, but you failed to explain why the beliefs
 described in each quote are perverted.  I presume you think the
 answer is self-evident, but for those of us dummies with IQs that
 fall slightly under 200 would you mind addressing each quote
 individually with the specific reason you find the beliefs presented
 in it perverted?  (IOW, not just, It's a belief based on religion,
 and 'religion is evil and must be destroyed'.)


Explanation Maru

-- 
William T Goodall
Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web  : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk
Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/

Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit  
atrocities. ~Voltaire.

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Re: memes, or genes...