Re: A question about Contacting Aliens
On 16 Mar 2006 at 20:47, Trent Shipley wrote: Thus, the average mature race will patron just over 1 client. After a major space-time quake the institutes may make clients particularly scarce as they try to reduce the race count so that races will tend to some optimal species population. Or some handy accidental extinctions of few hundred species, sure. Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: A question about Contacting Aliens
Trent Shipley wrote: Ok, but at least it gives some magnitudes about what we are talking about. And we hit the 150 My ago critical date, when something nasty happened :-) I have no problem with the mean O-2 race living in main sequence civilization about 1My. That's a long time. Why don't most races hit the post-Hollarith [sp?] singularity and retire much earlier? Maybe they do. Some outliers seem to hang around the edge of main sequence civilization for tens or even the low hundreds of megayears. If the mean life span is 1My a lot of races need to pass on fast if they are to offset an elder race that is 200My old and not Retired yet. I do not support that the _mean_ life span is 1 My: Heaven's Reach states that most races stay about 1 My in the Oxigen Order. This probably means that 1 My is the peak of the distribution or the median, not the mean. It also means that disproportionately long-lived races will tend to be more wealthy and powerful. Or wealthy and powerful races tend to be long-lived :-) We have canonical references for two races: the Soro (2 My) and the Thenanin (30 My at least). Also, we know that the Jophur spent 1 My as Traeki before the Ash Nazg :-) of the Oailie. We also know that the Buyur are presumed extinct or retired after just 0.5 My since they left Jijo (numbers from memory, I could be wrong). ** Uplift and number of clients. Most of the clans would have just one huge line of Patron-Client. I don't think most races will be part of long, thin chains. These chains will occur, but will be more rare than one might expect. Instead, a tree of patron client relations would be dominated by explosions. Fertile patrons will have lots of clients. Most of these client lines will die out relatively soon, but some will have their own large families. Ok, those chains would not be stable. A tree with many branchings and some short lines might be a better model. An extreme case would be the human-world analogy of the matrilineal or patrilineal line of a population constrained in size. The problem is that the Uplift Institute would tend to curb more than 1 client per patron, and Uplift itself makes each race want to uplift a client. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
A question about Contacting Aliens
After finishing up GURPS Uplift, I took another look at _Contacting Aliens_. And while it was fun to read again and check out the pics, etc., and it's cool how it's laid out like a how to book for Terragens agents dealing with Galactics, I noticed a substantial number of what *appear* to be major editing errors in terms of what happened when and to whom. For example, one page says the Caltmour died out during the battles with the Lions, but another says it happened ~2,000 years ago. So I was wondering if you guys thought that was purposeful. That is, was it written in such a way as to reflect the spotty data available to Earthclan due to its substandard libraries and inexperience, or if the book just wasn't run past our Uplift timeline gurus such as Alberto for a thorough vetting. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: A question about Contacting Aliens
In a message dated 3/16/2006 6:34:54 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: After finishing up GURPS Uplift, I took another look at _Contacting Aliens_. And while it was fun to read again and check out the pics, etc., and it's cool how it's laid out like a how to book for Terragens agents dealing with Galactics, ---That was to have been the title. Terragen Field Agent's Guide. The publisher said otherwise. I noticed a substantial number of what *appear* to be major editing errors in terms of what happened when and to whom. ---Lenagh did more of the editing than he had originally planned. Because some things were not edited at all. One race has a strange lineage because the dummy words were never replaced with what was supposed to come later. For example, one page says the Caltmour died out during the battles with the Lions, but another says it happened ~2,000 years ago. ---And the Tytlal are six fingered, and the Thennanin have tails. So I was wondering if you guys thought that was purposeful. --Nope. That is, was it written in such a way as to reflect the spotty data available to Earthclan due to its substandard libraries and inexperience, or if the book just wasn't run past our Uplift timeline gurus such as Alberto for a thorough vetting. --Hidden purpose? Look, all of the Thennanin spy pictures were drawn as if the Thennanin were 2.75 meters tall, and not 3.75 meters tall. This led me to believe that they were actually taken by a Pila who had a biological camera installed behind one of his buttons. And some Pila have fingernail claws; some Pila have solid claws. And some Pila have five buttons; some Pila... Jim ---No answer, Vilyehm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens
Jim Sharkey wrote: After finishing up GURPS Uplift, I took another look at _Contacting Aliens_. And while it was fun to read again and check out the pics, etc., and it's cool how it's laid out like a how to book for Terragens agents dealing with Galactics, I noticed a substantial number of what *appear* to be major editing errors in terms of what happened when and to whom. Yes, this was a problem. The reason was that the book was _initially_ made with a much longer lifespan for each race [with races living for hundreds of millions, or even thousands of millions of years], but this would somehow impact on events of c.150 M years ago [if you have read Heaven's Reach you know which :-)], for with races so old those events would not be obscured. Heaven's Reach is explicit in the mention that most races live about 1 million years, then pass to the Retired Order. Races that live much longer [like the Thenanin, 30 My] should be the exception, not the rule. Also, races that do more than _one_ Uplift should be the exception, not the rule [unless you count Uplift-consorting], otherwise there would be too many races with _no_ Clients! The refitting of CA to the new timeline was not complete, so we have some paradoxes :-) So I was wondering if you guys thought that was purposeful. That is, was it written in such a way as to reflect the spotty data available to Earthclan due to its substandard libraries and inexperience, or if the book just wasn't run past our Uplift timeline gurus such as Alberto for a thorough vetting. I don't remember exactly what I reviewed, but it was basically in the main timeline, that had been based on GURPS 1st Edition [contradicting the explicit year of Sundiver given in the book]. Both CA and GU 2nd Ed have correct Sundiver - and all dates that follow - in agreement with the Canon, except for minor adjustments. Alberto Monteiro, commander of the TimeLine Legions of Terror ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens
Alberto Monteiro wrote: The reason was that the book was _initially_ made with a much longer lifespan for each race [with races living for hundreds of millions, or even thousands of millions of years] See, that makes a little more sense to me, in that it grants a lot more stability to the Four Galaxies. Races coming and going at a rate of 1M per seems like obscenely fast turnover for a 3 billion year-old society. Heaven's Reach is explicit in the mention that most races live about 1 million years, then pass to the Retired Order. Races that live much longer [like the Thenanin, 30 My] should be the exception, not the rule. So for CA we should divide all the long-lived races' timelines by 10? :-) Also, races that do more than _one_ Uplift should be the exception, not the rule [unless you count Uplift-consorting], otherwise there would be too many races with _no_ Clients! I can't really agree with that. The implication in all the books is clearly that there are hundreds of races totaling trillions of beings. Plenty of pre-sapients for all. And of course, clearly most of the important clans have multiple clients, often concurrently. The refitting of CA to the new timeline was not complete, so we have some paradoxes :-) I dunno, I liked my idea better. Maybe it's from a youth misspent hoping to gain an all-important Marvel No-Prize for explaining such paradoxes, but I though it sounded good! :-) Alberto Monteiro, commander of the TimeLine Legions of Terror Ooh, what's it like having your very own Legions? You *have* been following the What not to do when you're an Evil Overlord guidelines, right? ;-) Jim Yummy, delicious nits Maru ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens
Jim Sharkey wrote: The reason was that the book was _initially_ made with a much longer lifespan for each race [with races living for hundreds of millions, or even thousands of millions of years] See, that makes a little more sense to me, in that it grants a lot more stability to the Four Galaxies. Races coming and going at a rate of 1M per seems like obscenely fast turnover for a 3 billion year-old society. If you replace race by person and galactic society by human society, you will see that 3,000 generations would take us back to 100,000 years ago - and that 95% of this time is lost in myth, speculation and (rare) scientific studies. The same goes for Galactic Society. Ancient times are lost in myth, with only a few races trying to study them scietifically. Taking the analogy again, we have realiable written records of events for 6,000 or 3,000 years ago. This would extrapolate to 200 My to 100 My ago, the canonical [Heaven's Reach] time when the Library has decent data. Heaven's Reach is explicit in the mention that most races live about 1 million years, then pass to the Retired Order. Races that live much longer [like the Thenanin, 30 My] should be the exception, not the rule. So for CA we should divide all the long-lived races' timelines by 10? :-) It's not that simple :-) Also, races that do more than _one_ Uplift should be the exception, not the rule [unless you count Uplift-consorting], otherwise there would be too many races with _no_ Clients! I can't really agree with that. The implication in all the books is clearly that there are hundreds of races totaling trillions of beings. Plenty of pre-sapients for all. And of course, clearly most of the important clans have multiple clients, often concurrently. Most of the important clans have multiple clients: this is the whole reason [with cause and effect mixed] that they are important! Most of the clans would have just one huge line of Patron-Client. Alberto Monteiro, commander of the TimeLine Legions of Terror Ooh, what's it like having your very own Legions? You *have* been following the What not to do when you're an Evil Overlord guidelines, right? ;-) But I am not the Evil Overlord, I just command one Legion of Terror :-) Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens
Terrific discussion. Oh, if only I had spare time... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens
PS... drop by http://www.davidbrin.com/ for the announcement at top of several new amazon shorts including one about the coming singularity that some of you may find interesting. Be sure to remember those 5 star reviews! ;-) Hoping you are all thriving. Every now and then do drop in at http://davidbrin.blogspot.com/ db ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens
Alberto Monteiro wrote: If you replace race by person and galactic society by human society, you will see that 3,000 generations would take us back to 100,000 years ago - and that 95% of this time is lost in myth, speculation and (rare) scientific studies. The same goes for Galactic Society. Ancient times are lost in myth, with only a few races trying to study them scietifically. Taking the analogy again, we have realiable written records of events for 6,000 or 3,000 years ago. This would extrapolate to 200 My to 100 My ago, the canonical [Heaven's Reach] time when the Library has decent data. That's an interesting idea, and one I hadn't considered! However, as they might say at Terragens training schools, you can't really take human experience and overlay it onto Galactic experience. The extrapolation of generations makes some logical sense, but the core idea that you *can* extrapolate from human history to Galactic history may be flawed. Also, from strictly a this is an awe-filled universe point of view, I *like* the idea of races such as the Tothtoon and Krallnith still being out there adn having a legacy that stretches over half-a-billion years. It gives the Four Galaxies a broader and (while I know the Good Doctor would hate the expression) more romantic scope. So for CA we should divide all the long-lived races' timelines by 10? :-) It's not that simple :-) It never is, is it? :-) I was exaggerating for the sake of simplicity, but it is jarring that some patrons wait 1MY or more for clients, while others that were Uplifted only 250,000 years ago have clients already nearing the end of their own indenture. Most of the important clans have multiple clients: this is the whole reason [with cause and effect mixed] that they are important! That would be an interesting avenue to explore. Which came first, the prestige and power or the clients? Do the Soro have...what, four clients I think, because they're a powerful clan, or have they become a pwoerful clan because they've been aggressively involved in Uplift? I have to figure it's a mixture of both, as you said. Get one high- quality Galactic citizen as a client, it increases your prestige and increases your chances of getting another and so on. I imagine that's just another reason why some Galactics hate Earthclan; here are these obnoxious wolflings who got to become treated like nid-level patrons because they've got two client races. I am not the Evil Overlord, I just command one Legion of Terror :-) Yes, but that has to have some rewards? You know, pillaging peasants, impressing pneumatic young women, that kind of thing, right? Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens
Sorry, I definitely disagree that we have reliable written records from 6000 or even 3000 years ago; the former pre-dates writing in general, and the latter has huge gaps, depending on what you're studying (who, exactly, were the Sea Peoples?) We really only start to get reliable records only in the Middle Ages in Europe, slightly earlier in other civilizations (even then there wil be gaps, depending on which Chinese emperor goes on a book-burning binge). So yeah, 3000 is still an Age of Myth especially when you consider the Trojan War occurred during this period... Damon. Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: Trumpeter's Marder I auf GW 38(h) Sent from my BlackBerry wireless handheld. Sent from my BlackBerry wireless handheld. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens
David Brin wrote: Terrific discussion. Oh, if only I had spare time... Bah, spare time is overrated. Come play hooky with us for a half hour; I mean, we're actually talking about your books for once! :-) Unless of course you're afraid of what the Brin list actually talking Brin might do to the space-time continuum... Hopefully that hole will wait long enough for my Amazon gift voucher and I to purchase The Life Eaters, which I never seem to see on any of the shelves at my FNCS. Forgiveness I see a lot, but not TLE. By the by, that comic strip linked on your site was funny as heck. Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Brin: A question about Contacting Aliens
David Brin wrote: Terrific discussion. Oh, if only I had spare time... Stop blogging evil grin Alberto Monteiro PS: ok, I will remove the Brin: for this discussion... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: A question about Contacting Aliens
Jim Sharkey wrote: That's an interesting idea, and one I hadn't considered! However, as they might say at Terragens training schools, you can't really take human experience and overlay it onto Galactic experience. The extrapolation of generations makes some logical sense, but the core idea that you *can* extrapolate from human history to Galactic history may be flawed. Ok, but at least it gives some magnitudes about what we are talking about. And we hit the 150 My ago critical date, when something nasty happened :-) Also, from strictly a this is an awe-filled universe point of view, I *like* the idea of races such as the Tothtoon and Krallnith still being out there adn having a legacy that stretches over half-a- billion years. It gives the Four Galaxies a broader and (while I know the Good Doctor would hate the expression) more romantic scope. Maybe it's ok to have _one_ ancient race, but the problem is _too many_ ancient races. Worse: these races have just one client, and this client was uplifted some 500 My after the 1st race. This does not make much sense. I imagine that's just another reason why some Galactics hate Earthclan; here are these obnoxious wolflings who got to become treated like nid- level patrons because they've got two client races. Yes - Earthclan got prestige without power. I am not the Evil Overlord, I just command one Legion of Terror :-) Yes, but that has to have some rewards? You know, pillaging peasants, impressing pneumatic young women, that kind of thing, right? Yes :-) Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: A question about Contacting Aliens
Damon Agretto wrote: Sorry, I definitely disagree that we have reliable written records from 6000 or even 3000 years ago; the former pre-dates writing in general, and the latter has huge gaps, depending on what you're studying (who, exactly, were the Sea Peoples?) But we have some data from 6,000 years ago, like those tables from Sumeria, and the stuff in the pyramids from some time before 3,000 years ago. We really only start to get reliable records only in the Middle Ages in Europe, slightly earlier in other civilizations (even then there wil be gaps, depending on which Chinese emperor goes on a book- burning binge). So yeah, 3000 is still an Age of Myth especially when you consider the Trojan War occurred during this period... Ok, but there's no sharp transition from Myth to History. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: A question about Contacting Aliens
Alberto Monteiro wrote: Jim Sharkey wrote: Also, from strictly a this is an awe-filled universe point of view, I *like* the idea of races such as the Tothtoon and Krallnith still being out there and having a legacy that stretches over half- a- billion years. It gives the Four Galaxies a broader and (while I know the Good Doctor would hate the expression) more romantic scope. Maybe it's ok to have _one_ ancient race, but the problem is _too many_ ancient races. Worse: these races have just one client, and this client was uplifted some 500 My after the 1st race. This does not make much sense. I agree. It was never my intention to suggest that CA is correct, just that some of the ideas therein appeal to me more than some of what's considered more canonical. I like the scope and mystery inherent in it. I imagine that's just another reason why some Galactics hate Earthclan; here are these obnoxious wolflings who got to become treated like mid-level patrons because they've got two client races. Yes - Earthclan got prestige without power. Sort of like George Hamilton and Paris HIlton being famous for being famous. :) I am not the Evil Overlord, I just command one Legion of Terror Yes, but that has to have some rewards? You know, pillaging peasants, impressing pneumatic young women, that kind of thing, right? Yes :-) Sweet! Where can a sapient sign up for this duty? Jim ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: A question about Contacting Aliens
Well, *some* data, that's true, but it's hardly IMHO what I would term as reliable. In my example, FREX, can we reliably identify who the Sea Peoples are, or have a discussion on Daily Life of Sumeria? Just IMHO, a listing of kings and who they conquered this season does not constitute reliable records... And AFAIK there were no writing civilizations prior to 3000bc... Damon Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. http://www.geocities.com/garrand.geo/index.html Now Building: Trumpeter's Marder I auf GW 38(h) Sent from my BlackBerry wireless handheld. Sent from my BlackBerry wireless handheld. -Original Message- From: Alberto Monteiro [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thu, 16 Mar 2006 18:05:51 To:Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Subject: Re: A question about Contacting Aliens Damon Agretto wrote: Sorry, I definitely disagree that we have reliable written records from 6000 or even 3000 years ago; the former pre-dates writing in general, and the latter has huge gaps, depending on what you're studying (who, exactly, were the Sea Peoples?) But we have some data from 6,000 years ago, like those tables from Sumeria, and the stuff in the pyramids from some time before 3,000 years ago. We really only start to get reliable records only in the Middle Ages in Europe, slightly earlier in other civilizations (even then there wil be gaps, depending on which Chinese emperor goes on a book- burning binge). So yeah, 3000 is still an Age of Myth especially when you consider the Trojan War occurred during this period... Ok, but there's no sharp transition from Myth to History. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l . ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: A question about Contacting Aliens
Jim Sharkey wrote: I am not the Evil Overlord, I just command one Legion of Terror Yes, but that has to have some rewards? You know, pillaging peasants, impressing pneumatic young women, that kind of thing, right? Yes :-) Sweet! Where can a sapient sign up for this duty? You have to memorize every chapter and versicle of the Holy Canon, and you must be able to correctly and instantly answer any question pertaining to your Legion. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: A question about Contacting Aliens
David Brin has many virtues, but he is hardly obsessive about editing for continuity. Contacting Aliens has a huge number of discrepancies. The discrepancies are internal, it contradicts itself, it contradicts things written by Brin, it contradicted all sorts of stuff from Gurps Uplift, 1st edition, and (though the Encyclopedia is not canonical) it contradicted the Encyclopedia when the Encyclopedia could have been accommodated. As a systematizer I choose to think of CA this way. It was written as a very introductory training manual for all manner of Terragens who might work with aliens. One has to presume that anything distributed so widely would get into the hands of non-friendly agents; therefore, CA contained many intentional gaffes as a form of disinformation meant to lull any alien who might study Contacting Aliens into a false sense of security. On Thursday 2006-03-16 13:02, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Jim Sharkey wrote: That's an interesting idea, and one I hadn't considered! However, as they might say at Terragens training schools, you can't really take human experience and overlay it onto Galactic experience. The extrapolation of generations makes some logical sense, but the core idea that you *can* extrapolate from human history to Galactic history may be flawed. Ok, but at least it gives some magnitudes about what we are talking about. And we hit the 150 My ago critical date, when something nasty happened :-) I have no problem with the mean O-2 race living in main sequence civilization about 1My. That's a long time. Why don't most races hit the post-Hollarith [sp?] singularity and retire much earlier? Maybe they do. Some outliers seem to hang around the edge of main sequence civilization for tens or even the low hundreds of megayears. If the mean life span is 1My a lot of races need to pass on fast if they are to offset an elder race that is 200My old and not Retired yet. It also means that disproportionately long-lived races will tend to be more wealthy and powerful. Also, from strictly a this is an awe-filled universe point of view, I *like* the idea of races such as the Tothtoon and Krallnith still being out there adn having a legacy that stretches over half-a- billion years. It gives the Four Galaxies a broader and (while I know the Good Doctor would hate the expression) more romantic scope. Maybe it's ok to have _one_ ancient race, but the problem is _too many_ ancient races. Worse: these races have just one client, and this client was uplifted some 500 My after the 1st race. This does not make much sense. Billions of years is PLENTY of time to build up quite a pantheon of heroic elders. I imagine that's just another reason why some Galactics hate Earthclan; here are these obnoxious wolflings who got to become treated like nid- level patrons because they've got two client races. ** Uplift and number of clients. Also, races that do more than _one_ Uplift should be the exception, not the rule [unless you count Uplift-consorting], otherwise there would be too many races with _no_ Clients! I can't really agree with that. The implication in all the books is clearly that there are hundreds of races totaling trillions of beings. Plenty of pre-sapients for all. And of course, clearly most of the important clans have multiple clients, often concurrently. No. I'm with Alberto here. The clear implication is that suitable presapients or ur-species are in very short supply. The main sequence sapients are O-2, H-2, and machine and of these the biological sapients (at least) are very careful ecologically. The books actually imply tens or even hundreds of thousands of O-2 races with (at least) trillions of individuals. But the Institutes are bound to keep O-2 civilization in environmental equilibrium. One will want millions or billions of individuals in an median race. This implies a relatively fixed number of races (not taking into account loss of galaxies) with a VERY slow rate of growth. Thus, the average mature race will patron just over 1 client. After a major space-time quake the institutes may make clients particularly scarce as they try to reduce the race count so that races will tend to some optimal species population. Most of the important clans have multiple clients: this is the whole reason [with cause and effect mixed] that they are important! Most of the clans would have just one huge line of Patron-Client. I don't think most races will be part of long, thin chains. These chains will occur, but will be more rare than one might expect. Instead, a tree of patron client relations would be dominated by explosions. Fertile patrons will have lots of clients. Most of these client lines will die out relatively soon, but some will have their own large families. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: A question about Contacting Aliens
In a message dated 3/16/2006 8:46:42 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Instead, a tree of patron client relations would be dominated by explosions. Fertile patrons will have lots of clients. Most of these client lines will die out relatively soon, but some will have their own large families. Dr. Brin left out entirely one aspect of the clan tree analogy: pruning. Patrons who sue to have a race removed from the clan after they have served their 100,000 years of indenture. Though not yet cannon, so far I have two examples. The Jehmopinni—an overtly large race of sapient beings, as large as a blue whale. From a low gravity, high pressure, high O2 planet. Too damn large to do anything but get in the way, and they cost too much to accommodate as equals. After abandonment, they now have to sign an acceptance of discrimination form if they leave their homeworld. The Ahp'Churzz. Kangaroo like with the hairy tale segmented like a scorpion's tale. On the end of it is an extra opening for gasses only. Living in swamps, they developed a silent release for above the water line. Or as a vocal warning.. For 100,000 years their patron put up with this 'involuntary' stench. Recently, Earthclan discovered the secret to the Ahp'Churzz. It isn't involuntary. It's how they laugh, and they also like the Three Stooges. The Ahp'Churzz are easy to remember. For they have a tail, full of sound, and furry, signifing n'yukking. Vilyehm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
