Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
Dan Minette wrote: As for South America, my uncle talked a lot about the relatively low attendance at his parish. I'm guessing slightly more than 1% went to church. Muy Catolico, pero no fanatico. That's true here in Rio de Janeiro. About 70% of the population claims to be Catholic, but of these maybe 5% go the the Church even eventually. The huge majority only goes to Church to attend weddings and 7th-day mass. And, of course, even those that go to Church regularly don't give a damn about any RCC regulation that would limit their pleasures: they don't eat meat on the Easter Friday, but they may chose that day to do an abortion. Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, The Fool wrote: From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] JDG - Who wonders if he should be proud in some sense that those who you use code words for anti-Catholic bigotry aren't immediately driven out of the public forum. What code words? What exactly are you talking about? Are you drunk or high? I'd guess tired, based on the time stamp of his original post. *I* sure am Julia but JDG doesn't have my particular excuse, then again, I'm tired at 10AM... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
At 10:02 AM 11/13/2003 -0600 Julia Thompson wrote: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, The Fool wrote: From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] JDG - Who wonders if he should be proud in some sense that those who you use code words for anti-Catholic bigotry aren't immediately driven out of the public forum. What code words? What exactly are you talking about? Are you drunk or high? I'd guess tired, based on the time stamp of his original post. *I* sure am Julia but JDG doesn't have my particular excuse, then again, I'm tired at 10AM... No, I definitely don't have your excuse Julia --- not yet anyways.Then again, I'm statistically unlikely to ever have twins alongside another young one, so I guess that you've got me beat. :) But anyhow, tiredness didn't actually play into my above post.I was alluding to the fact that two football commentators, Rush Limbaugh and Gregg Easterbrook, lost their jobs this year under accusations of using code words for racism and anti-Semitism, respectively. In at least the case of the former, many List Members agreed that use of code words was an appropriate reason for driving someone out of the public sphere of commentary. Given that The Fool was trotting out the old codewords for anti-Catholicism in this country, namely that Catholics are all in hock to orders of the Pope, it seemed like an apt anaology. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
- Original Message - From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 10:26 AM Subject: Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope Given that The Fool was trotting out the old codewords for anti-Catholicism in this country, namely that Catholics are all in hock to orders of the Pope, it seemed like an apt anaology. JDG There are a couple points to be made here. First, I cannot imagine the Fool being able to keep a media job if he put out one day of his posts on the airways. I agree that the statement about the pope ruling American politicians is an old like from anti-Catholic prejudice. When Kennedy was running, he undid this with his famous remark separating the public actions of Catholic politicians from the teachings of the pope. At the time, this speech received the blessing of the Catholic bishops. It was considered key to his becoming president. The news story reported the Catholic bishops discussing the dismantling of this agreement; with sanctions for Catholic public figures who follow it. These sanctions can include excommunication from the Catholic church. The real inaccuracy in the title was the use of the phrase to punish. An accurate statement would be are discussing punishing. If the punishment is a matter of not giving honorary degrees, I'm not too worried. But, if they expect all Catholic politicians to toe the party line on all votes under pain of excommunication, then all hell will be out for noon. I don't think the bishops are that stupid. My guess is that the reporter caught the bishops venting their frustrations concerning how little influence they have over the viewpoints and actions of Catholics. But, I do know that there is a movement in the Catholic church to enforce top down discipline, with don't let the door hit you on the way out for all who won't follow the party line. If they really want to reduce the Catholic church to the remnant faithful, this would be a wonderful first step. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 10:02 AM 11/13/2003 -0600 Julia Thompson wrote: On Wed, 12 Nov 2003, The Fool wrote: From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] JDG - Who wonders if he should be proud in some sense that those who you use code words for anti-Catholic bigotry aren't immediately driven out of the public forum. What code words? What exactly are you talking about? Are you drunk or high? I'd guess tired, based on the time stamp of his original post. *I* sure am Julia but JDG doesn't have my particular excuse, then again, I'm tired at 10AM... No, I definitely don't have your excuse Julia --- not yet anyways. Then again, I'm statistically unlikely to ever have twins alongside another young one, so I guess that you've got me beat. :) But anyhow, tiredness didn't actually play into my above post.I was alluding to the fact that two football commentators, Rush Limbaugh and Gregg Easterbrook, lost their jobs this year under accusations of using code words for racism and anti-Semitism, respectively. In at least the case of the former, many List Members agreed that use of code words was an appropriate reason for driving someone out of the public sphere of commentary. Given that The Fool was trotting out the old codewords for anti-Catholicism in this country, namely that Catholics are all in hock to orders of the Pope, it seemed like an apt anaology. I still think you were high when you wrote that. I not anti-catholic, I'm Anti-Christ. There's a difference. Any politician who obeys the pope over the constitution is committing high crimes and treason. I'm still looking for where you explain why telling people that bishops are going to excommunicate politicians who don't obey is bigoted and anti-catholic? It's what the article said. God pushers are no better than drug dealers. The first one's always free. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
At 12:46 PM 11/13/2003 -0600 The Fool wrote: I still think you were high when you wrote that. I not anti-catholic, I'm Anti-Christ. There's a difference. So, is it possible in your mind to be Anti-Christ and not Anti-Catholic? Any politician who obeys the pope over the constitution is committing high crimes and treason. I am unaware of the Pope ever giving an order to a politician to disobey the Constitution. I'm still looking for where you explain why telling people that bishops are going to excommunicate politicians who don't obey is bigoted and anti-catholic? It's what the article said. Bzzt.Try again.Or did you even read the article before adding your insults to it and spamming the List? JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
Its a good thing Catholics are Jews Fool, or else you might really have gotten yourself in trouble at the very least you probably wouldn't be allowed to write football columns any more Catholics are Jews? Um...since when...? Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:34:30 -0500 snip Any politician who obeys the pope over the constitution is committing high crimes and treason. I am unaware of the Pope ever giving an order to a politician to disobey the Constitution. You're dissembling, and he's right, but paranoid (imo). If an edict is passed by the Vatican and a religious politician obeys that edict rather than uphold a freedom granted to his constituents by the Constitution, then that politician is comitting a Federal crime. It's seems quite straightforward to me. Jon Le Blog: http://zarq.livejournal.com _ From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always playing on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE! http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
At 06:00 PM 11/13/2003 -0500 Jon Gabriel wrote: From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope Date: Thu, 13 Nov 2003 16:34:30 -0500 snip Any politician who obeys the pope over the constitution is committing high crimes and treason. I am unaware of the Pope ever giving an order to a politician to disobey the Constitution. You're dissembling, and he's right, but paranoid (imo). If an edict is passed by the Vatican and a religious politician obeys that edict rather than uphold a freedom granted to his constituents by the Constitution, then that politician is comitting a Federal crime. It's seems quite straightforward to me. Please give an even remotely plausible hypothetical of the Pope giving such an order. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
At 11:08 AM 11/13/2003 -0600 Dan Minette wrote: The news story reported the Catholic bishops discussing the dismantling of this agreement; with sanctions for Catholic public figures who follow it. These sanctions can include excommunication from the Catholic church. The real inaccuracy in the title was the use of the phrase to punish. An accurate statement would be are discussing punishing. The other real inaccuracy in the title was the idea that the Church's teaching on life come from the Pope. The Church teachings that all life is precious and sacred, and that no man has the right to declare some segment of life to be other from onesself, and therfore deny these self-proclaimed others the most basic of human rights. I'd argue that this teaching of love thy neighbor is 2000+ years old in the Catholic Church, and certainly doesn't come down from the Pope. If the punishment is a matter of not giving honorary degrees, I'm not too worried. Nor should anyone be. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
JDG wrote: Shocking development The Fool posts another article with a subject line that both insults and misleads as to the true contents of the article. The Fool replied: In what way is it misleading or even insulting? Either you didn't read the article you posted very carefully, or you're being as biased and misleading as you accuse Fox News Channel of being (and I think you're right on track about Fox News). Your subject heading says, Bishops to punish catholic politicians But to quote the first line of the article you posted: Frustrated that so many Catholic politicians support abortion rights, the bishops of the United States said yesterday they will begin evaluating whether they can impose sanctions against elected officials who vote contrary to church teachings. ...will begin evaluating means that it will be discussed and may or may not actually happen. Your subject line misleadingly implies that the decision to punish has already been made. There's a word for people who loudly complain about others being misleading while themselves being blatantly misleading: http://dictionary.cambridge.org/define.asp?key=38743dict=CALD Reggie Bautista _ MSN Shopping upgraded for the holidays! Snappier product search... http://shopping.msn.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
Jon wrote: If an edict is passed by the Vatican Who said anything about the Vatican? The article says bishops of the United States, not the Vatican or the College of Cardinals or any other group from anywhere but the good ol' US of A. and a religious politician obeys that edict rather than uphold a freedom granted to his constituents by the Constitution, then that politician is comitting a Federal crime. It's seems quite straightforward to me. I would agree, if the US bishops who want to do this actually manage to get the other US bishops to agree (which I think is pretty unlikely), and if a politician or judge violated their constitutional or legal duties for fear of this retribution, then I would say yes, they should be prosecuted. But as I said, I don't think this will go through. There is a war going on right now within the Roman Catholic Church between those who think the reforms of Vatican II went too far or maybe even should be completely repealed and those who think that the reforms didn't go far enough. Right now there's a pretty close balance between those two extremist wings and the majority (swing voters, if you will) who are somewhere in the middle. JP II is definitely on the side of minimizing many of the reforms, as are typically the older, more conservative cardinals and bishops (leaving out priests and parishoners for now). I don't think the swing voters will let this one happen. At least, I certainly hope they don't, because that would lead to the marginalization of the RCC. Reggie Bautista _ From Beethoven to the Rolling Stones, your favorite music is always playing on MSN Radio Plus. No ads, no talk. Trial month FREE! http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
- Original Message - From: Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 7:30 PM Subject: Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope Jon wrote: If an edict is passed by the Vatican Who said anything about the Vatican? The article says bishops of the United States, not the Vatican or the College of Cardinals or any other group from anywhere but the good ol' US of A. and a religious politician obeys that edict rather than uphold a freedom granted to his constituents by the Constitution, then that politician is comitting a Federal crime. It's seems quite straightforward to me. I would agree, if the US bishops who want to do this actually manage to get the other US bishops to agree (which I think is pretty unlikely), and if a politician or judge violated their constitutional or legal duties for fear of this retribution, then I would say yes, they should be prosecuted. But as I said, I don't think this will go through. There is a war going on right now within the Roman Catholic Church between those who think the reforms of Vatican II went too far or maybe even should be completely repealed and those who think that the reforms didn't go far enough. That description is probably true if you are describing bishops, but not if you are describing average Catholics. If you look at surveys of Catholics on issues such as married priests, women priests, birth control, etc. you will find that most Catholics in the US dissent from the teachings of the church. Only 30% agree with the churches policy on married priests, 67% disagree; woman priests: 32% vs 64%; birth control 12% vs 88%. So, the vast majority of American Catholics want the reforms to go farther. From: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/vault/stories/data101503.html The balance only exists in the hierarchy. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
I wrote: There is a war going on right now within the Roman Catholic Church between those who think the reforms of Vatican II went too far or maybe even should be completely repealed and those who think that the reforms didn't go far enough. Dan replied: That description is probably true if you are describing bishops, but not if you are describing average Catholics. If you look at surveys of Catholics on issues such as married priests, women priests, birth control, etc. you will find that most Catholics in the US dissent from the teachings of the church. Only 30% agree with the churches policy on married priests, 67% disagree; woman priests: 32% vs 64%; birth control 12% vs 88%. So, the vast majority of American Catholics want the reforms to go farther. From: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/vault/stories/data101503.html The balance only exists in the hierarchy. From my personal experience, that sounds accurate. However, I don't think that would hold true of Catholics in European countries. I don't have any numbers to back this up, only anecdotes, but it seems to me that American Catholics tend to be much more liberal as a group than European Catholics, which I find to be a fascinating reversal of the typical stereotype of Europeans as liberal and Americans as conservative outside of the Church. Reggie Bautista _ Crave some Miles Davis or Grateful Dead? Your old favorites are always playing on MSN Radio Plus. Trial month free! http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
On Thu, 13 Nov 2003, John D. Giorgis wrote: But anyhow, tiredness didn't actually play into my above post. I was alluding to the fact that two football commentators, Rush Limbaugh and Gregg Easterbrook, lost their jobs this year under accusations of using code words for racism and anti-Semitism, respectively. In at least the case of the former, many List Members agreed that use of code words was an appropriate reason for driving someone out of the public sphere of commentary. Given that The Fool was trotting out the old codewords for anti-Catholicism in this country, namely that Catholics are all in hock to orders of the Pope, it seemed like an apt anaology. Spelling things out for the sleep-deprived would be nice. :) Also, I can't remember some things from one week to the next. Thank you for the explanation. Julia at least Tommy has stopped screaming for now... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
- Original Message - From: Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 13, 2003 8:47 PM Subject: Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope I wrote: There is a war going on right now within the Roman Catholic Church between those who think the reforms of Vatican II went too far or maybe even should be completely repealed and those who think that the reforms didn't go far enough. Dan replied: That description is probably true if you are describing bishops, but not if you are describing average Catholics. If you look at surveys of Catholics on issues such as married priests, women priests, birth control, etc. you will find that most Catholics in the US dissent from the teachings of the church. Only 30% agree with the churches policy on married priests, 67% disagree; woman priests: 32% vs 64%; birth control 12% vs 88%. So, the vast majority of American Catholics want the reforms to go farther. From: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/vault/stories/data1015 03.html The balance only exists in the hierarchy. From my personal experience, that sounds accurate. However, I don't think that would hold true of Catholics in European countries. I don't have any numbers to back this up, only anecdotes, but it seems to me that American Catholics tend to be much more liberal as a group than European Catholics, which I find to be a fascinating reversal of the typical stereotype of Europeans as liberal and Americans as conservative outside of the Church. It might be that the relatively few in Europe that go to church are more conservative. My experience is that church attendance is not part of the woof and warf of life, as it is in the US. For example, a former pastor of mine talked about seeing mainly old ladies and children in the churches in Italy. That may be a bit of an overstatement, but from what I've seen European church attendance is less than half of what US church attendance is. As for South America, my uncle talked a lot about the relatively low attendance at his parish. I'm guessing slightly more than 1% went to church. Muy Catolico, pero no fanatico. Dan M. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Reggie Bautista [EMAIL PROTECTED] But as I said, I don't think this will go through. There is a war going on right now within the Roman Catholic Church between those who think the reforms of Vatican II went too far or maybe even should be completely repealed and those who think that the reforms didn't go far enough. That description is probably true if you are describing bishops, but not if you are describing average Catholics. If you look at surveys of Catholics on issues such as married priests, women priests, birth control, etc. you will find that most Catholics in the US dissent from the teachings of the church. Only 30% agree with the churches policy on married priests, 67% disagree; woman priests: 32% vs 64%; birth control 12% vs 88%. So, the vast majority of American Catholics want the reforms to go farther. From: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/vault/stories/data101503.html The balance only exists in the hierarchy. I'm not sure that within the hierarchy you could call it a balance. My impression is that within the Church leadership, there are very few who hold the reformist views that the majority of American Catholics hold, or if they do, they are unable to admit it, as dissent is apparently not tolerated. I was disgusted to read this last month: http://andrewsullivan.com/index.php?dish_inc=archives/2003_10_12_dish_archive.html#106640638844162996 http://makeashorterlink.com/?J18942986 Nothing is going to change as long as we have the present pope, but from what I've heard, all of the favorites as his replacement are considered to also be of the conservative, hard-line persuasion as well. Dan, I'm surprised by your report about low church attendance in South America, as I keep hearing that another reason church reform is unlikely is because the church's greatest growth is in South America and Africa, where they don't share the US Catholic's more liberal views. And then there's McCloskey: http://www.boston.com/news/globe/magazine/articles/2003/11/02/the_crusaders/ (I think someone here (The Fool?) linked to this article recently, but I can't find it now) Summary quote from him: There's a name for Catholics who dissent from church teachings, he says. They're called Protestants. Blah. _ Crave some Miles Davis or Grateful Dead? Your old favorites are always playing on MSN Radio Plus. Trial month free! http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
At 12:28 PM 11/12/2003 -0600 The Fool wrote: WASHINGTON - Frustrated that so many Catholic politicians support abortion rights, the bishops of the United States said yesterday they will begin evaluating whether they can impose sanctions against elected officials who vote contrary to church teachings Shocking development The Fool posts another article with a subject line that both insults and misleads as to the true contents of the article. Its a good thing Catholics are Jews Fool, or else you might really have gotten yourself in trouble at the very least you probably wouldn't be allowed to write football columns any more JDG - Who wonders if he should be proud in some sense that those who you use code words for anti-Catholic bigotry aren't immediately driven out of the public forum. ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
From: John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] At 12:28 PM 11/12/2003 -0600 The Fool wrote: WASHINGTON - Frustrated that so many Catholic politicians support abortion rights, the bishops of the United States said yesterday they will begin evaluating whether they can impose sanctions against elected officials who vote contrary to church teachings Shocking development The Fool posts another article with a subject line that both insults and misleads as to the true contents of the article. In what way is it misleading or even insulting? Its a good thing Catholics are Jews Fool, or else you might really have gotten yourself in trouble at the very least you probably wouldn't be allowed to write football columns any more This is most incoherent thing JDG has written that I have read. (And thats saying something). I have no clue whatsoever as what it means. I am lost. JDG - Who wonders if he should be proud in some sense that those who you use code words for anti-Catholic bigotry aren't immediately driven out of the public forum. What code words? What exactly are you talking about? Are you drunk or high? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Bishops to punish catholic politicians who disobey Pope
At 11:29 PM 11/12/03 -0600, The Fool wrote to John D. Giorgis: Are you drunk or high? Are you? -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
