Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 8:30 PM, Kevin B. O'Brien [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: John Garcia wrote: As I have said before, my vote is given to the candidate who most closely matches my values. Ethnic pride aside, I would not vote for a candidate simply because she was a Latina, just as I would not vote for a candidate because he or she is a US Navy veteran, Roman Catholic, attended Jesuit high school, played stickball, grew up in Harlem or listens to Tito Puente. But I'd give points for listening to Tito Puente, at least. Regards, -- Kevin B. O'Brien TANSTAAFL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux User #333216 There is much to be said in favor of modern journalism. By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community. - Oscar Wilde ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l Yeah, that would get him or her points. And more if he/she also listened to the Fania All Stars, Parliament/Funkadelic, James Brown, the list goes on. don't fake the funk maru john ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
John Garcia wrote: Yeah, that would get him or her points. And more if he/she also listened to the Fania All Stars, Parliament/Funkadelic, James Brown, the list goes on. I just rented a DVD of Celia Cruz and the Fania All-Stars from Netflix. Great stuff. And I love Eddie Palmieri. Regards, -- Kevin B. O'Brien TANSTAAFL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux User #333216 Military justice is to justice what military music is to music.-- Georges Clemenceau ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
- Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 6:29 AM Subject: Racial and Gender imbalance let me ask you the same question, john. who do YOU think is qualified? based on what values? i don't pretend to claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer your question, but i would like to ask you why you think there are, or are not, more hispanic women in government in proportion to their population demographic? that is the real point i am making which you still have not addressed. jon If you don't claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer John's question which is a very reasonable question considering the previous posts, perhaps you shouldn't have made your original statement in the first place. I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! Regards, Wayne. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
- Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 6:29 AM Subject: Racial and Gender imbalance let me ask you the same question, john. who do YOU think is qualified? based on what values? i don't pretend to claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer your question, but i would like to ask you why you think there are, or are not, more hispanic women in government in proportion to their population demographic? that is the real point i am making which you still have not addressed. jon If you don't claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer John's question which is a very reasonable question considering the previous posts, perhaps you shouldn't have made your original statement in the first place. I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! Regards, Wayne. Sorry, on re-reading that it is perhaps a bit harsher than I intended. Instead I should have just congratulated John Garcia on doing research on behalf of his opponent and still winning the debate hands down. Regards, Wayne. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
- Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 7:09 AM Subject: Racial and Gender imbalance I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! Regards, Wayne. explain to me, wayne, why not being an expert on qualified hispanic women disqualifies me from having an opinion that hispanic women are underrepresented in government? are either you or john experts? i very clearly stated in the very first post i made on this topic that i was referring to QUALIFIED hispanic women. in fact i agree with both you and john that the merit should determine who is the best person for the job, regardless of race, religion or gender!the point i keep trying to make, which both you and john are persistently determined to ignore, is that these minorities continue to be underrepresented in proportion to their population demographic. jon Sorry, As I have already said, the post was probably a bit harsher than I intended. You are indeed entitled to have your own opinion. I don't think however you should expect John to do all your research for you and then help you out with your argument for you too!! Regards, Wayne. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
On 23 Oct 2008, at 21:52, Wayne Eddy wrote: I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! If you believe that then you must also believe either a) white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people or b) there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs. If you believe (b) don't you think something should be done about that? Ideals Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 5:09 PM, Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: let me ask you the same question, john. who do YOU think is qualified? based on what values? i don't pretend to claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer your question, but i would like to ask you why you think there are, or are not, more hispanic women in government in proportion to their population demographic? that is the real point i am making which you still have not addressed. jon If you don't claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer John's question which is a very reasonable question considering the previous posts, perhaps you shouldn't have made your original statement in the first place. I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! Regards, Wayne. explain to me, wayne, why not being an expert on qualified hispanic women disqualifies me from having an opinion that hispanic women are underrepresented in government? are either you or john experts? i very clearly stated in the very first post i made on this topic that i was referring to QUALIFIED hispanic women. in fact i agree with both you and john that the merit should determine who is the best person for the job, regardless of race, religion or gender!the point i keep trying to make, which both you and john are persistently determined to ignore, is that these minorities continue to be underrepresented in proportion to their population demographic. jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l Qualified is irrelevant. We hear a lot of talk on both sides of the campaign about qualifications for the Presidency. What would those be? Is there an apprenticeship for the job? Is it like moving from journeyman to master electrician? ALL Presidents have been unqualified on Inaugural Day, except for those who served more than one term. For me, the question is Who do I want to lead me and this country? Now, it appears that your question is why are Chicanos, Puerto Ricans, Cubans, San Salvadorans, Peruvians, Argentinians, Chileans, Hondurans, Dominicans, Costa Ricans, Bolivians, Venezuelans, and possibly some Latin countries that I have forgotten, not sitting in Congress in proportion to their demographic. Or why are Latin women underrepresented in government. Could be many reasons, among them racisim, xenophobia, the tradition that Latin women defer to Latin men, the fact that Latinos in the US who are citizens or 2nd or 3rd generation are dispersed, and don't live in ethnic communities, lower expectations for Latina women, the notion that politics is a dirty business not fit for a Latin woman, the list goes on and on. If any conspiracy exists, it is one to keep incumbents in office through district redrawing. But we don't see many women in Congress in proportion to their population, or the Senate would be half male and half female, let alone Anglo, Latin, Black, or Asian. Listen, I'm not trying to get into an argument. If Ileana Ros-Lehtinen had been born in Miami instead of Havana, McCain might have picked her instead of Palin. I don't agree with her entirely, but I do agree that she has a level of political experience that places her above Palin. john ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
On 23 Oct 2008, at 21:52, Wayne Eddy wrote: I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! If you believe that then you must also believe either a) white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people or b) there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs. If you believe (b) don't you think something should be done about that? Ideals Maru -- William T Goodall Hi William. I do believe what I said, and while nothing is black and white and everything is grey, I believe that (b) is more true than (a). But the solution is still the same. Always choose the best man or woman for the job. Regards, Wayne. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 5:26 PM, William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote: On 23 Oct 2008, at 21:52, Wayne Eddy wrote: I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! If you believe that then you must also believe either a) white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people or b) there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs. If you believe (b) don't you think something should be done about that? Ideals Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l or c) There is a bias against i) People who did not go to an 'elite' school or university ii) People who come from a 'lower class' demographic iii) People who have not had the same economic, cultural and social advantages as others I could go on. Not every non-white is disadvantaged and not every white is overly advantaged (although Chris Rock once said that the poorest white man would not trade places with a black multi-millionaire). john ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
On Thu, Oct 23, 2008 at 5:06 PM, Wayne Eddy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: - Original Message - From: Jon Louis Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Friday, October 24, 2008 6:29 AM Subject: Racial and Gender imbalance let me ask you the same question, john. who do YOU think is qualified? based on what values? i don't pretend to claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer your question, but i would like to ask you why you think there are, or are not, more hispanic women in government in proportion to their population demographic? that is the real point i am making which you still have not addressed. jon If you don't claim to know enough about qualified hispanic women to answer John's question which is a very reasonable question considering the previous posts, perhaps you shouldn't have made your original statement in the first place. I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! Regards, Wayne. Sorry, on re-reading that it is perhaps a bit harsher than I intended. Instead I should have just congratulated John Garcia on doing research on behalf of his opponent and still winning the debate hands down. Regards, Wayne. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l Thanks Wayne, but I'm not trying to play gotcha, and if it seems like that I apologize. john ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
John Garcia wrote: As I have said before, my vote is given to the candidate who most closely matches my values. Ethnic pride aside, I would not vote for a candidate simply because she was a Latina, just as I would not vote for a candidate because he or she is a US Navy veteran, Roman Catholic, attended Jesuit high school, played stickball, grew up in Harlem or listens to Tito Puente. But I'd give points for listening to Tito Puente, at least. Regards, -- Kevin B. O'Brien TANSTAAFL [EMAIL PROTECTED] Linux User #333216 There is much to be said in favor of modern journalism. By giving us the opinions of the uneducated, it keeps us in touch with the ignorance of the community. - Oscar Wilde ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Racial and Gender imbalance
On 23 Oct 2008, at 22:35, Wayne Eddy wrote: On 23 Oct 2008, at 21:52, Wayne Eddy wrote: I agree with John and all the others who think that the best man or woman for the job is the best man or woman for the job! If you believe that then you must also believe either a) white men are remarkably better at important jobs than other people or b) there is a distinct bias against people who aren't white men for important jobs. If you believe (b) don't you think something should be done about that? Ideals Maru -- William T Goodall Hi William. I do believe what I said, and while nothing is black and white and everything is grey, I believe that (b) is more true than (a). But the solution is still the same. Always choose the best man or woman for the job. One way of checking whether large organisations are choosing the best man or woman for the job is to compare their hiring to the expected demographic if they were really doing that. A statistically large deviation from the expected demographic would indicate a systematic bias in their HR practices. Those opposed to measurement characterise this as quotas and personalise the story as some well-qualified white male losing a career opportunity to 'make up the numbers'. What the numbers actually show is lots of people who aren't white males are clearly losing career opportunities due to systematic bias. Real unfairness trumps hypothetical unfairness. White male Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ You are coming to a sad realization. Cancel or Allow? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
