Re: br!n: feudalism meme in america
In a message dated 9/6/2003 7:45:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Of course I could go on to say that feudalism was an agreement between two men in which one did service for the other in exchange for land, and has nothing to do with rulership. But then, I don't think anyone really cares about history anymore, or getting it right... :( Was this a freely made agreement between equals or was it a situation where one man owned the land through inheritance and the other had no option other than to work in the service of the lord. Where there the lord got to decide the terms of the agreement and if the peasent did not agree the power of the state would come down upon him. Feudalism was not a free market state. It was in fact just the opposite. The rise of trade unions helped to destroy feudalism ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: br!n: feudalism meme in america
Was this a freely made agreement between equals or was it a situation where one man owned the land through inheritance and the other had no option other than to work in the service of the lord. Where there the lord got to decide the terms of the agreement and if the peasent did not agree the power of the state would come down upon him. Feudalism was not a free market state. It was in fact just the opposite. The rise of trade unions helped to destroy feudalism First, as previously stated, peasants are outside the feudo-vassalic relationship. They belonged to something known as manorialism. Second, should the would-be vassal disagree with the arrangement, its not the power of the state he has to worry about (the modern concept of the State, indeed, did not exist in the middle ages) but the power of his lord. Why should the king care about the troubles between a baron and his vassal, unless it proved to be a serious disturbance to the peace? The would-be vassal can disagree with the terms as long as he realizes there are consequences to disagreement. Usually this meant ejection from his lands, forcefully if he did not vacate them (because then whatever rents or resources he collected becomes stealing). Damon. Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. Now Building: Tamiya's M26 Pershing ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: br!n: feudalism meme in america
So how exactly IS promising goods and services to a lord in exchange for land different from my leasing a house? I probably could do it as barter if I had to--but money is easier. Your definition of feudalism might stretch so far that it is meaningless. No, my definition of feudalism is very specific. Its different from leasing a house because you don't enter into a relationship with your landlord; you do not swear to uphold and defend him from all others, promise to render upon him specific services when asked, in exchange for your land, his protection, and his support. Your landlord doesn't come by when you're unemployed and give you food (typically), nor does he act as your lawyer in court, or protect you from burglars. Instead you give him money and he lets you live in his house. I'm sure there were good lords, just as there were good slave masters. But we're talking about the system of feudalism AS A WHOLE, aren't we? So the correct thing to do is to average coercion used over all lords, to produce an average coercion coefficient for the system as a whole. Or something like that. Perhaps I haven't been clear in what I'm trying to say. Feudalism, as a system (though custom should be a better word) does not create a pyramid shaped society by its very existance; such a society must already exist. Whether lords could coerce others into feudal relationships, or were good or bad is irrelevant; they can be all these things WITHOUT feudalism. Which is my point, specifically wrt the original article. Which is why I dislike the term used in that fashion. Especially when feudal relationships, specifically in the European Middle Ages, was less a pyramid and more a spider web of interlocking relationships, with the king at the top and everyone else trickling down to the bottom. Socially a knight may be below a count, but this doesn't mean a knight need listen to a foreign count (that is, one who is not his direct overlord). There was a phrase during the Middle Ages: The man of my man is not my man. So did you learn the correct definition of feudalism in school, or something? Let's have it verbatim, then... : ) Feudalism is a relationship, usually between a lord and his vassal, in which a specific service is exchanged for payment in kind, with mutual obligations between both parties That's the short version. For the long version, read Carl Stephenson's _Medaeval Feudalism_. Damon. Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. Now Building: Tamiya's M26 Pershing ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: br!n: feudalism meme in america
And America was not conceived of as a feudal state, feudalism being broadly defined as rule by the super-rich. Rather, our nation was created in large part in reaction against centuries of European feudalism. As Ralph Waldo Emerson said in his lecture titled The Fortune of the Republic, delivered on December 1, 1863, We began with freedom. America was opened after the feudal mischief was spent. No inquisitions here, no kings, no nobles, no dominant church. Of course I could go on to say that feudalism was an agreement between two men in which one did service for the other in exchange for land, and has nothing to do with rulership. But then, I don't think anyone really cares about history anymore, or getting it right... :( Damon. Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. Now Building: Tamiya's M26 Pershing ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: br!n: feudalism meme in america
Damon wrote: ... Of course I could go on to say that feudalism was an agreement between two men in which one did service for the other in exchange for land, and has nothing to do with rulership. But then, I don't think anyone really cares about history anymore, or getting it right... :( So feudalism was just a lot of private contracts? O.K.. But if one's choice is accept a serfdom contract or starve, isn't this in fact coercion? I've certainly leased a house, and not considered myself a serf... ---David ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: br!n: feudalism meme in america
From: Damon [EMAIL PROTECTED] And America was not conceived of as a feudal state, feudalism being broadly defined as rule by the super-rich. Rather, our nation was created in large part in reaction against centuries of European feudalism. As Ralph Waldo Emerson said in his lecture titled The Fortune of the Republic, delivered on December 1, 1863, We began with freedom. America was opened after the feudal mischief was spent. No inquisitions here, no kings, no nobles, no dominant church. Of course I could go on to say that feudalism was an agreement between two men in which one did service for the other in exchange for land, and has nothing to do with rulership. But then, I don't think anyone really cares about history anymore, or getting it right... :( If in English all words had one meaning, we'd be speaking something akin to french. And we wouldn't need a thesaurus. Perhaps you should consider a paradigm shift. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: br!n: feudalism meme in america
So feudalism was just a lot of private contracts? O.K.. But if one's choice is accept a serfdom contract or starve, isn't this in fact coercion? Technically serfdom is outside the bounds of feudalism because a serf does not do homage or swear fealty for his lands. Reguardless, using feudalism to coerce one into a subservient role does not, by itself, imply that feudalism is inherently a system of pyramid shaped rulership. Thats like implying guns inherently create a pyramid shaped society. Reread the original message and replace feudalism with firearms. There are plenty of examples where, in fact, where lords either released their tenants from servile status, or infact held no land fiefs at all (bastard feudalism). I've certainly leased a house, and not considered myself a serf... That's because you were not of the social class known as serf. Damon. Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] Qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum. Now Building: Tamiya's M26 Pershing ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: br!n: feudalism meme in america
Damon wrote: So feudalism was just a lot of private contracts? O.K.. But if one's choice is accept a serfdom contract or starve, isn't this in fact coercion? Technically serfdom is outside the bounds of feudalism because a serf does not do homage or swear fealty for his lands. Reguardless, using feudalism to coerce one into a subservient role does not, by itself, imply that feudalism is inherently a system of pyramid shaped rulership. So how exactly IS promising goods and services to a lord in exchange for land different from my leasing a house? I probably could do it as barter if I had to--but money is easier. Your definition of feudalism might stretch so far that it is meaningless. There are plenty of examples where, in fact, where lords either released their tenants from servile status, or infact held no land fiefs at all (bastard feudalism). I'm sure there were good lords, just as there were good slave masters. But we're talking about the system of feudalism AS A WHOLE, aren't we? So the correct thing to do is to average coercion used over all lords, to produce an average coercion coefficient for the system as a whole. Or something like that. ---David So did you learn the correct definition of feudalism in school, or something? Let's have it verbatim, then... : ) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
