Re: Sanity prevails
On 8/18/08, Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Bruce quoted: A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -- attributed to Lazarus Long by Robert A. Heinlein Can anyone non-fictional do all of those things adequately well? I think it's much better to do a few of them very well and rely on others to do different subsets and trade skills or goods and so forth. It seems to me that all the people who've done most to advance human civilisation have specialised in one or at most several fields, and it's becoming increasingly important to specialise as human civilisation becomes ever more complex and our collective knowledge ever vaster. I've never conned a ship or died gallantly, except in role-playing games. I've only ever planned invasions in role-playing games also, but I've used similar tactics in RL in navigating office politics. The only building I've ever designed (and built) was a rather elaborate 7-room treehouse, does that count? And as to how efficiently I have fought, I'll have to leave others to judge. But I've done the rest of these things. (The bone was a temporary setting of a shin bone until we could get back to a road where an ambulance could find us, and the EMT said I did a pretty good job, and both the pitching of manure and the butchering of a hog -- as well as helping butcher a cow -- were one summer on an uncle's ranch, and I wasn't as good at either as my uncle thought I should be). In the jobs I've had recently, the people who management most often called in crisis situations were the people who could adapt to quickly changing circumstances and learn new processes at the drop of a hat, who could grasp enough of the details involved in complex issues to make fast, independent, informed decisions. YMMV, of course. -- Mauro Diotallevi Alcohol and calculus don't mix. Don't drink and derive. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sanity prevails
On Aug 18, 2008, at 2:02 PM, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Ok, let's see how Heinleinian I can claim to be :-) A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, Ok, ok butcher a hog, Never done it. conn a ship, I have no idea what's that. But I can pilot a spaceship (did that for 18 years). design a building, Probably yes. write a sonnet, No. balance accounts, Yes - but it insists on remaining negative. build a wall, I think I can. set a bone, Never done that. Probably I couldn't, I have a kind of panic to treat people and causing more harm than good. comfort the dying, Tried that, but I don't think I was successful. The last time, _I_ was comforted by the dying. take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, Yes to all. pitch manure, What's that? program a computer, Yes. cook a tasty meal, Yes - with a microwave and pre-prepared meal. fight efficiently, die gallantly. Probably yes to both, but never had to do any of them. Specialization is for insects. I agree - I am now in my 3rd different profession [plus a couple of non-pro that I have a good understanding] :-) Alberto Monteiro You're also not 4000+ years old. ;) (or however old Lazarus was the last we heard from him ..) I've designed a building, built more than my fair share of walls (framing nailers are amazingly fun tools), programmed computers (depending on what the current definitlon of programming) is, cooked one or two tasty meals (although very non-PC non-vegetarian), balanced accounts and completed more than usually complex tax returns, written poetry (no sonnets yet, though), and been somewhat comforting to at least one dying relative. I haven't butchered a hog yet, or conned a ship (although I'm reasonably sure I could manage both with a small allowance for learning curves, and I do have some rudimentary understanding of orbital dynamics and could bash through the vector calculus with some pointers and a little practice, I think). I've also overhauled nearly every type of major car component except for automatic transmissions, and could do that as well if they're Simpson gearsets (the Ravigneaux type is still a little bit of a stretch for my brain right now), done home electrical work up to and including replacing a faulty breaker box, helmed a keel boat, built and tested gas chromatographs good to single partes per trillion of fluorocarbons in air, designed gate-level logic circuits for instrument valve and trap sampler interfaces, and done no small amount of amateur gunsmithing. A specialist I'm most definitely not. Giving kickbacks to the wealthy isn't creating wealth, it's just giving kickbacks to the wealthy. -- Toby Ziegler ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sanity prevails
Bruce quoted: A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -- attributed to Lazarus Long by Robert A. Heinlein Can anyone non-fictional do all of those things adequately well? I think it's much better to do a few of them very well and rely on others to do different subsets and trade skills or goods and so forth. It seems to me that all the people who've done most to advance human civilisation have specialised in one or at most several fields, and it's becoming increasingly important to specialise as human civilisation becomes ever more complex and our collective knowledge ever vaster. Rich GSV Pin Factory ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sanity prevails
On Mon, 18 Aug 2008, Richard Baker wrote: Bruce quoted: A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -- attributed to Lazarus Long by Robert A. Heinlein Can anyone non-fictional do all of those things adequately well? I think it's much better to do a few of them very well and rely on others to do different subsets and trade skills or goods and so forth. It seems to me that all the people who've done most to advance human civilisation have specialised in one or at most several fields, and it's becoming increasingly important to specialise as human civilisation becomes ever more complex and our collective knowledge ever vaster. Well, I can't butcher a hog, conn a ship or set a bone, and I don't know how I'd do on the fighting or the dying. None of my plannings of buildings have ever been executed, either. On the wall, well, about all I've really done there is mended one a bit, and I have a decent gut feeling for Frost's poem. I'll quit analyzing it in the light of my own life now Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sanity prevails
Richard Baker asked: Can anyone non-fictional do all of those things adequately well? I think it's much better to do a few of them very well and rely on others to do different subsets and trade skills or goods and so forth. It seems to me that all the people who've done most to advance human civilisation have specialised in one or at most several fields, and it's becoming increasingly important to specialise as human civilisation becomes ever more complex and our collective knowledge ever vaster. Ok, let's see how Heinleinian I can claim to be :-) A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, Ok, ok butcher a hog, Never done it. conn a ship, I have no idea what's that. But I can pilot a spaceship (did that for 18 years). design a building, Probably yes. write a sonnet, No. balance accounts, Yes - but it insists on remaining negative. build a wall, I think I can. set a bone, Never done that. Probably I couldn't, I have a kind of panic to treat people and causing more harm than good. comfort the dying, Tried that, but I don't think I was successful. The last time, _I_ was comforted by the dying. take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, Yes to all. pitch manure, What's that? program a computer, Yes. cook a tasty meal, Yes - with a microwave and pre-prepared meal. fight efficiently, die gallantly. Probably yes to both, but never had to do any of them. Specialization is for insects. I agree - I am now in my 3rd different profession [plus a couple of non-pro that I have a good understanding] :-) Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sanity prevails
On Mon, 18 Aug 2008, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Richard Baker asked: pitch manure, What's that? Herbivore poop. Great fertilizer! Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sanity prevails
Julia wrote: On Mon, 18 Aug 2008, Alberto Monteiro wrote: Richard Baker asked: pitch manure, What's that? Herbivore poop. Great fertilizer! Or shovel sh*t, to be succinct. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sanity prevails
At 02:02 PM Monday 8/18/2008, Alberto Monteiro wrote: pitch manure, What's that? Required skill for politicians and other bureaucrats. . . . ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sanity prevails
On 16 Aug 2008, at 17:29, Bruce Bostwick wrote: One of the articles I saw on this mentioned that at least one of the textbooks in question (the one quoted as saying if (scientific) conclusions contradict the Word of God, the conclusions are wrong) was published by Bob Jones University. Those would definitely seem to be the same guys. It's worth noting that the entire *curriculum* taught by fundamentalist-based schools and homeschooling systems (most of them use the same curriculum, in most cases either A Beka or PACE) is considered so substandard by accredited university standards that most fundamentalist Christian school courses aren't accepted for credit in accredited universities. This is a widespread enough problem that there is a whole parallel economy of fundamentalist-affiliated universities like Regent, Bob Jones, Liberty, and others, and even alternate track *accreditation* for those universities (since their *own* courses are often not accepted for transfer to mainstream universities, likewise for the reason that most of them are so appallingly substandard as to not be worth the paper they're printed on), just to provide a secondary education for the kids unfortunate enough to have been dragged through a fundamentalist K12 program. It's a huge problem, and is very much underreported in this country. From the A Beka Book website: World History and Cultures in Christian Perspective This well-researched text stands on the conviction that God is the Creator of the world and the Controller of history. The text builds a solid foundation of ancient history, tracing man's history back to the Garden of Eden. It gives a fine presentation of neglected Asian and African cultures in a unique ancient-to-modern style, helping the students to recognize other peoples and cultures. An in-depth study of the Greco-Roman culture lays the groundwork for an exciting section on medieval history. The last section brings the student to the very doorstep of current history and vividly depicts world events in light of God's master plan. Since man's actions are a product of his thoughts, the history of ideas is emphasized, rather than only political events and economic conditions. Students are given a Christian perspective on language, chronology, prehistoric times, art, music, revolutionism, evolutionism, socialism, Communism, humanism, liberalism, and much more. Colorful maps, time lines, illustrations, and photographs help to make the study of history both interesting and rewarding. [...] Science of the Physical Creation Atmosphere, weather, oceanography, earthquakes, volcanoes, rocks, and fossils are just some of the earth-science topics of this outstanding text. The geology section includes a good refutation of the principle of uniformity and other ideas of evolutionary philosophers. Basic concepts of chemistry are presented in a simple and yet accurate manner, and physics concepts are applied to lasers, computers, and other electronic devices. [...] Biology: God's Living Creation--New Edition Truly nonevolutionary in philosophy, spirit, and sequence of study. Begins with the familiar, tangible things of nature with special emphasis on the structure and function; and concludes with God's amazing design at the cellular and chemical level. Ties abstract concepts to concrete examples through clear, easy-to- read explanations. Lays a firm foundation for future studies in chemistry, physics, and other fields while teaching students the Christian perspective of science. With the academic knowledge gained in the text, students will also find a greater appreciation for God's physical creation and an increased interest in science. Lists key concepts at the head of each chapter, Includes pronunciation helps, key-words in bold, vivid photographs, and full-color diagrams. Includes section reviews and a chapter review for each chapter to reinforce learning and help students prepare for tests. Includes a set of TransVision overlays of the human body to show at a glance the anatomical relationships of the body's systems. Investigates such fields of study as botany, zoology, microbiology, physiology, cytology, genetics, and ecology. Reflects the latest advances in man's understanding of living things without neglecting a foundation in the basics. These people are mad Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Debunking bullshit is a thankless task. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sanity prevails
Biology: God's Living Creation--New Edition Truly nonevolutionary in philosophy, spirit, and sequence of study. Begins with the familiar, tangible things of nature with special emphasis on the structure and function; and concludes with God's amazing design at the cellular and chemical level. [...] What?!! No text book that corrects those awful heresies about the earth being round and revolving around the Sun? But doesn't the Bible speak of the for corners of the Earth? And didn't Joshua make the Sun stand still in the sky? Don't we have to take those things literally? I mean, isn't it all the literal word of God. I'm shocked that they aren't refuting those evil Compernican Heresies. Olin - Original Message - From: William T Goodallmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 8:15 AM Subject: Re: Sanity prevails On 16 Aug 2008, at 17:29, Bruce Bostwick wrote: One of the articles I saw on this mentioned that at least one of the textbooks in question (the one quoted as saying if (scientific) conclusions contradict the Word of God, the conclusions are wrong) was published by Bob Jones University. Those would definitely seem to be the same guys. It's worth noting that the entire *curriculum* taught by fundamentalist-based schools and homeschooling systems (most of them use the same curriculum, in most cases either A Beka or PACE) is considered so substandard by accredited university standards that most fundamentalist Christian school courses aren't accepted for credit in accredited universities. This is a widespread enough problem that there is a whole parallel economy of fundamentalist-affiliated universities like Regent, Bob Jones, Liberty, and others, and even alternate track *accreditation* for those universities (since their *own* courses are often not accepted for transfer to mainstream universities, likewise for the reason that most of them are so appallingly substandard as to not be worth the paper they're printed on), just to provide a secondary education for the kids unfortunate enough to have been dragged through a fundamentalist K12 program. It's a huge problem, and is very much underreported in this country. From the A Beka Book website: World History and Cultures in Christian Perspective This well-researched text stands on the conviction that God is the Creator of the world and the Controller of history. The text builds a solid foundation of ancient history, tracing man's history back to the Garden of Eden. It gives a fine presentation of neglected Asian and African cultures in a unique ancient-to-modern style, helping the students to recognize other peoples and cultures. An in-depth study of the Greco-Roman culture lays the groundwork for an exciting section on medieval history. The last section brings the student to the very doorstep of current history and vividly depicts world events in light of God's master plan. Since man's actions are a product of his thoughts, the history of ideas is emphasized, rather than only political events and economic conditions. Students are given a Christian perspective on language, chronology, prehistoric times, art, music, revolutionism, evolutionism, socialism, Communism, humanism, liberalism, and much more. Colorful maps, time lines, illustrations, and photographs help to make the study of history both interesting and rewarding. [...] Science of the Physical Creation Atmosphere, weather, oceanography, earthquakes, volcanoes, rocks, and fossils are just some of the earth-science topics of this outstanding text. The geology section includes a good refutation of the principle of uniformity and other ideas of evolutionary philosophers. Basic concepts of chemistry are presented in a simple and yet accurate manner, and physics concepts are applied to lasers, computers, and other electronic devices. [...] Biology: God's Living Creation--New Edition Truly nonevolutionary in philosophy, spirit, and sequence of study. Begins with the familiar, tangible things of nature with special emphasis on the structure and function; and concludes with God's amazing design at the cellular and chemical level. Ties abstract concepts to concrete examples through clear, easy-to- read explanations. Lays a firm foundation for future studies in chemistry, physics, and other fields while teaching students the Christian perspective of science. With the academic knowledge gained in the text, students will also find a greater appreciation for God's physical creation and an increased interest in science. Lists key concepts at the head of each chapter, Includes pronunciation helps, key-words in bold, vivid photographs, and full-color diagrams
Re: Sanity prevails
William T Goodall quoted: World History and Cultures in Christian Perspective This well-researched text stands on the conviction that God is the Creator of the world and the Controller of history. (...) and concluded: These people are mad Maru And yet, if _we_ are right (i.e., Evolution rulez), then _we_ are mad, because it seems that believing in nonsense is a reproductive advantage... Survival of the craziest Maru Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sanity prevails
On Aug 17, 2008, at 4:58 PM, Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiro wrote: And yet, if _we_ are right (i.e., Evolution rulez), then _we_ are mad, because it seems that believing in nonsense is a reproductive advantage... When the belief system itself is a meme which demands conceiving large numbers of children and raising them entirely within the meme's influence, by force if necessary, that by definition is a reproductive advantage, and rationality and awareness of the fragility of the environment our species depends on for its survival become disadvantages. The mad ones will win, at least up to the point where they themselves cannot survive on the planet they've made uninhabitable .. A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects. -- attributed to Lazarus Long by Robert A. Heinlein ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sanity prevails
And yet, if _we_ are right (i.e., Evolution rulez), then _we_ are mad, because it seems that believing in nonsense is a reproductive advantage... Survival of the craziest Maru Alberto Monteiro No, it means that it had an advantage in the past, not that it still has survival value now. In our evolutionary past, belonging to a small, xenophobic group that shut out outsiders and was run by tough authoritarian leaders probably did have survival value and the groups who distrusted the world and set themselves off from it prospered. The closed belief system served to keep them unified in the face of outside threats, and prompted obedience in a world where taking time out to think too much might have been fatal. But that isn't true anymore, and that same behavior, hardwired into the genes, can be maladaptive in today's world. Just like a taste for high-fat food was beneficial when we were hunter gatherers and that kind of food was scarce -- you ate as much of it as you could because who knew when you would see it again, and the calories would keep you alive. But in a world with a McDonald's on every corner that same taste, that kept our ancestors alive can kill us. These kinds of insular, tribal belief systems, that create tight little pockets of delusional thinking and cut their believers off from the outside world, are the same thing. In an increasingly interconnected and crowded world they do not have survival value. They make these people a threat to themselves and everyone around them. - Original Message - From: Alberto Vieira Ferreira Monteiromailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussionmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, August 17, 2008 2:58 PM Subject: Re: Sanity prevails William T Goodall quoted: World History and Cultures in Christian Perspective This well-researched text stands on the conviction that God is the Creator of the world and the Controller of history. (...) and concluded: These people are mad Maru And yet, if _we_ are right (i.e., Evolution rulez), then _we_ are mad, because it seems that believing in nonsense is a reproductive advantage... Survival of the craziest Maru Alberto Monteiro ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-lhttp://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Sanity prevails
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/13/BAQT129NMG.DTLtype=printable (08-12) 17:25 PDT SAN FRANCISCO -- A federal judge says the University of California can deny course credit to applicants from Christian high schools whose textbooks declare the Bible infallible and reject evolution. Rejecting claims of religious discrimination and stifling of free expression, U.S. District Judge James Otero of Los Angeles said UC's review committees cited legitimate reasons for rejecting the texts - not because they contained religious viewpoints, but because they omitted important topics in science and history and failed to teach critical thinking. Otero's ruling Friday, which focused on specific courses and texts, followed his decision in March that found no anti-religious bias in the university's system of reviewing high school classes. Now that the lawsuit has been dismissed, a group of Christian schools has appealed Otero's rulings to the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco. It appears the UC is attempting to secularize private religious schools, attorney Jennifer Monk of Advocates for Faith and Freedom said Tuesday. Her clients include the Association of Christian Schools International, two Southern California high schools and several students. Charles Robinson, the university's vice president for legal affairs, said the ruling confirms that UC may apply the same admissions standards to all students and to all high schools without regard to their religious affiliations. What the plaintiffs seek, he said, is a religious exemption from regular admissions standards. The suit, filed in 2005, challenged UC's review of high school courses taken by would-be applicants to the 10-campus system. Most students qualify by taking an approved set of college preparatory classes; students whose courses lack UC approval can remain eligible by scoring well in those subjects on the Scholastic Assessment Test. Christian schools in the suit accused the university of rejecting courses that include any religious viewpoint, any instance of God's guidance of history, or any alternative ... to evolution. But Otero said in March that the university has approved many courses containing religious material and viewpoints, including some that use such texts as Chemistry for Christian Schools and Biology: God's Living Creation, or that include scientific discussions of creationism as well as evolution. UC denies credit to courses that rely largely or entirely on material stressing supernatural over historic or scientific explanations, though it has approved such texts as supplemental reading, the judge said. For example, in Friday's ruling, he upheld the university's rejection of a history course called Christianity's Influence on America. According to a UC professor on the course review committee, the primary text, published by Bob Jones University, instructs that the Bible is the unerring source for analysis of historical events and evaluates historical figures based on their religious motivations. Another rejected text, Biology for Christian Schools, declares on the first page that if (scientific) conclusions contradict the Word of God, the conclusions are wrong, Otero said. He also said the Christian schools presented no evidence that the university's decisions were motivated by hostility to religion. UC attorney Christopher Patti said Tuesday that the judge assessed the review process accurately. We evaluate the courses to see whether they prepare these kids to come to college at UC, he said. There was no evidence that these students were in fact denied the ability to come to the university. But Monk, the plaintiffs' lawyer, said Otero had used the wrong legal standard and had given the university too much deference. Science courses from a religious perspective are not approved, she said. If it comes from certain publishers or from a religious perspective, UC simply denies them. Invisible Friends Maru -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. ~Voltaire. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sanity prevails
(08-12) 17:25 PDT SAN FRANCISCO -- A federal judge says the University of California can deny course credit to applicants from Christian high schools whose textbooks declare the Bible infallible and reject evolution. Rejecting claims of religious discrimination and stifling of free expression, U.S. District Judge James Otero of Los Angeles said UC's review committees cited legitimate reasons for rejecting the texts - not because they contained religious viewpoints, but because they omitted important topics in science and history and failed to teach critical thinking Aren't these the same folks who scream that Gays and Lesbians who ask for basic civil rights are seeking sepcial treatment? Why do Fundamentalism and hypocrisy so often seem to go together? Olin - Original Message - From: William T Goodallmailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Brin-Lmailto:brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 7:01 AM Subject: Sanity prevails http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/13/BAQT129NMG.DTLtype=printablehttp://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2008/08/13/BAQT129NMG.DTLtype=printable (08-12) 17:25 PDT SAN FRANCISCO -- A federal judge says the University of California can deny course credit to applicants from Christian high schools whose textbooks declare the Bible infallible and reject evolution. Rejecting claims of religious discrimination and stifling of free expression, U.S. District Judge James Otero of Los Angeles said UC's review committees cited legitimate reasons for rejecting the texts - not because they contained religious viewpoints, but because they omitted important topics in science and history and failed to teach critical thinking. Otero's ruling Friday, which focused on specific courses and texts, followed his decision in March that found no anti-religious bias in the university's system of reviewing high school classes. Now that the lawsuit has been dismissed, a group of Christian schools has appealed Otero's rulings to the Ninth U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in San Francisco. It appears the UC is attempting to secularize private religious schools, attorney Jennifer Monk of Advocates for Faith and Freedom said Tuesday. Her clients include the Association of Christian Schools International, two Southern California high schools and several students. Charles Robinson, the university's vice president for legal affairs, said the ruling confirms that UC may apply the same admissions standards to all students and to all high schools without regard to their religious affiliations. What the plaintiffs seek, he said, is a religious exemption from regular admissions standards. The suit, filed in 2005, challenged UC's review of high school courses taken by would-be applicants to the 10-campus system. Most students qualify by taking an approved set of college preparatory classes; students whose courses lack UC approval can remain eligible by scoring well in those subjects on the Scholastic Assessment Test. Christian schools in the suit accused the university of rejecting courses that include any religious viewpoint, any instance of God's guidance of history, or any alternative ... to evolution. But Otero said in March that the university has approved many courses containing religious material and viewpoints, including some that use such texts as Chemistry for Christian Schools and Biology: God's Living Creation, or that include scientific discussions of creationism as well as evolution. UC denies credit to courses that rely largely or entirely on material stressing supernatural over historic or scientific explanations, though it has approved such texts as supplemental reading, the judge said. For example, in Friday's ruling, he upheld the university's rejection of a history course called Christianity's Influence on America. According to a UC professor on the course review committee, the primary text, published by Bob Jones University, instructs that the Bible is the unerring source for analysis of historical events and evaluates historical figures based on their religious motivations. Another rejected text, Biology for Christian Schools, declares on the first page that if (scientific) conclusions contradict the Word of God, the conclusions are wrong, Otero said. He also said the Christian schools presented no evidence that the university's decisions were motivated by hostility to religion. UC attorney Christopher Patti said Tuesday that the judge assessed the review process accurately. We evaluate the courses to see whether they prepare these kids to come to college at UC, he said. There was no evidence that these students were in fact denied the ability to come to the university
Re: Sanity prevails
On Aug 16, 2008, at 10:12 AM, Olin Elliott wrote: (08-12) 17:25 PDT SAN FRANCISCO -- A federal judge says the University of California can deny course credit to applicants from Christian high schools whose textbooks declare the Bible infallible and reject evolution. Rejecting claims of religious discrimination and stifling of free expression, U.S. District Judge James Otero of Los Angeles said UC's review committees cited legitimate reasons for rejecting the texts - not because they contained religious viewpoints, but because they omitted important topics in science and history and failed to teach critical thinking Aren't these the same folks who scream that Gays and Lesbians who ask for basic civil rights are seeking sepcial treatment? Why do Fundamentalism and hypocrisy so often seem to go together? Olin One of the articles I saw on this mentioned that at least one of the textbooks in question (the one quoted as saying if (scientific) conclusions contradict the Word of God, the conclusions are wrong) was published by Bob Jones University. Those would definitely seem to be the same guys. It's worth noting that the entire *curriculum* taught by fundamentalist-based schools and homeschooling systems (most of them use the same curriculum, in most cases either A Beka or PACE) is considered so substandard by accredited university standards that most fundamentalist Christian school courses aren't accepted for credit in accredited universities. This is a widespread enough problem that there is a whole parallel economy of fundamentalist-affiliated universities like Regent, Bob Jones, Liberty, and others, and even alternate track *accreditation* for those universities (since their *own* courses are often not accepted for transfer to mainstream universities, likewise for the reason that most of them are so appallingly substandard as to not be worth the paper they're printed on), just to provide a secondary education for the kids unfortunate enough to have been dragged through a fundamentalist K12 program. It's a huge problem, and is very much underreported in this country. (It's worth noting that Monica Goodling, one of the players in the US attorneys firing controversy, was a Regent graduate, considering other fundamentalist-connected players hired or appointed by the administration..) The true paradox of democracy is that it is vulnerable to defeat from within -- Me ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Sanity Prevails: Judge rules against 'intelligent design'
Judge rules against 'intelligent design' excerpts... HARRISBURG, Pa. - In one of the biggest courtroom clashes between faith and evolution since the 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial, a federal judge barred a Pennsylvania public school district Tuesday from teaching intelligent design in biology class, saying the concept is creationism in disguise. U.S. District Judge John E. Jones delivered a stinging attack on the Dover Area School Board, saying its first-in-the-nation decision in October 2004 to insert intelligent design into the science curriculum violates the constitutional separation of church and state. Jones decried the breathtaking inanity of the Dover policy and accused several board members of lying to conceal their true motive, which he said was to promote religion. Complete article... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10545387/ ___ If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sanity Prevails: Judge rules against 'intelligent design'
Gary wrote: Jones decried the breathtaking inanity of the Dover policy and accused several board members of lying to conceal their true motive, which he said was to promote religion. Thank goodness sanity prevails _sometimes_. Note that Jones is a Bush appointee, too, not a Michael Moore liberal like me. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
