Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
Hi Dave Mielke schrieb am 09.05.2022, 9:06 -0400: >[quoted lines by Halim Sahin on 2022/05/09 at 14:33 +0200] […] >>In Editors the expected behavour would be to read the complete Line. > >Sure, when moving to a new line (which brltty can't detect when the screen >scrolls). I'd think, though, that when you replace a character (e.g. vim's R >command) that you'd want only that single character to be spoken. This is probably only solvable with some sort of application profiles, i.e. when in Vim, use a different behaviour than when on a shell. However, this raises quite a few other questions, including what kind of application one is in. But maybe manual switching would be an option. I vaguely recall that in Speakup, one would disable some autoread feature in Vim to not get read the status line all the time. Regards Sebastian signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
I have not posted in this thread, because I don't generally use brltty speech. I think the problem is that Linux only puts out the changed characters to the console which in the speech is possibly not what you want. You might have to surpress that speech output and give him what he needs, but keep the Braille output the same as before. On Mon, 09 May 2022 08:33:38 -0400, Halim Sahin wrote: > > Hi, > On Mon, May 09, 2022 at 05:43:59AM -0400, Dave Mielke wrote: > > [quoted lines by Christian Schoepplein on 2022/05/09 at 10:39 +0200] > > > > >But lets take again the example when you type in a shell "ssl", press > > >enter, type "ssh" and then go up one line. In this case brltty only > > >speaks "l". This isn't the right behaviour IMHO because not the "l" > > >is focused and its not the character where the cursor is positioned. > > >The cursor is located behind the "l" so IMHO speaking "blank", or > > >whatever is spoken for a empty sign, should be spoken. > > > > But wouldn't that be even more useless when using speech only? I'd > > think that knowing what has changed, rather than what hasn't changed, > > is more helpful. > > I agree with christian. > Brltty should report the selected char and not the changed one. > This would be the expected behaviour also comprared with other > screenreaders. > > In Editors the expected behavour would be to read the complete Line. > I don't know idf this might be configurable in brltty. > BR. > Halim > > > > ___ > This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. > To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app > For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty -- Your life is like a penny. You're going to lose it. The question is: How do you spend it? John Covici wb2una cov...@ccs.covici.com ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
[quoted lines by Halim Sahin on 2022/05/09 at 14:33 +0200] >Brltty should report the selected char and not the changed one. >This would be the expected behaviour also comprared with other >screenreaders. Are you saying that, when arrowing up/down through bash history, it should always just say "space" because the cursor is always moved to the end of the text? How is that useful and/or helpful? >In Editors the expected behavour would be to read the complete Line. Sure, when moving to a new line (which brltty can't detect when the screen scrolls). I'd think, though, that when you replace a character (e.g. vim's R command) that you'd want only that single character to be spoken. -- I believe the Bible to be the very Word of God: http://Mielke.cc/bible/ Dave Mielke| 2213 Fox Crescent | WebHome: http://Mielke.cc/ EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Ottawa, Ontario | Twitter: @Dave_Mielke Phone: +1 613 726 0014 | Canada K2A 1H7 | ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
Hi, On Mon, May 09, 2022 at 05:43:59AM -0400, Dave Mielke wrote: > [quoted lines by Christian Schoepplein on 2022/05/09 at 10:39 +0200] > > >But lets take again the example when you type in a shell "ssl", press > >enter, type "ssh" and then go up one line. In this case brltty only > >speaks "l". This isn't the right behaviour IMHO because not the "l" > >is focused and its not the character where the cursor is positioned. > >The cursor is located behind the "l" so IMHO speaking "blank", or > >whatever is spoken for a empty sign, should be spoken. > > But wouldn't that be even more useless when using speech only? I'd > think that knowing what has changed, rather than what hasn't changed, > is more helpful. I agree with christian. Brltty should report the selected char and not the changed one. This would be the expected behaviour also comprared with other screenreaders. In Editors the expected behavour would be to read the complete Line. I don't know idf this might be configurable in brltty. BR. Halim ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
[quoted lines by Christian Schoepplein on 2022/05/09 at 10:39 +0200] >But lets take again the example when you type in a shell "ssl", press enter, >type "ssh" and then go up one line. In this case brltty only speaks "l". >This isn't the right behaviour IMHO because not the "l" is focused and its >not the character where the cursor is positioned. The cursor is located >behind the "l" so IMHO speaking "blank", or whatever is spoken for a empty >sign, should be spoken. But wouldn't that be even more useless when using speech only? I'd think that knowing what has changed, rather than what hasn't changed, is more helpful. >These things are all not a big problem when you are working with a braille >display and speech is enabled in addition. But when working with speech only >and when you have no braille display there are some situations where it is >not always clear where the focus is and whats the content of the screen if >only a part or the changing part of a line is spoken. Yes, I understand. Since I myself am not a speech-only user, these things aren't as intuitive to me. >So maybe the basic question is if brltty's speech support is only an >addition to braille or if brltty can be used also without a braille display >with speech only. It started out as an add-on, but, over time, speech support has been improving. I have no objection to trying to make it even better. >IMHO currently working with speech only is at least hard and not allways easy, >but maybe working with brltty and speech only is not intended which is also >okay, if everyone is aware. I wouldn't go that far, i.e. to declare that it isn't intended. I don't know how well other speech alternatives work, and see no reason why brltty's support for speech shouldn't be improved. -- I believe the Bible to be the very Word of God: http://Mielke.cc/bible/ Dave Mielke| 2213 Fox Crescent | WebHome: http://Mielke.cc/ EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Ottawa, Ontario | Twitter: @Dave_Mielke Phone: +1 613 726 0014 | Canada K2A 1H7 | ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
Hi Dave, Dave Mielke schrieb am 06.05.2022, 10:13 -0400: >>But in case of using a keyboard for keyboard input, would it be possible to >>listen to all key presses to retrieve this kind of context? > >At the very least, I suspect that that'd noticeably reduce interactive >responsiveness. What would be the reason behind this? I see that each interrupt would need to trigger an upcall to userspace. But that also works on Windows and seems to be reasonably fast. >Additionally, it's not clear what arrow keys are being used for. For example, >compare how lynx handles them versus how an editor typically handles them. Ok, I'm not using Lynx, but maybe for this reason. On W3m, it is navigating line-wise, as in my editor. I thought seeing the position change of the cursor would be enough, but that doesn't work when scrolling at the end of the window. Thanks Sebastian signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
[quoted lines by Sebastian Humenda on 2022/05/06 at 15:02 +0200] >It makes sense that BRLTTY is agnostic of this in the general case. Well, it's more like brltty simply doesn't know. >But in case of using a keyboard for keyboard input, would it be possible to >listen to all key presses to retrieve this kind of context? At the very least, I suspect that that'd noticeably reduce interactive responsiveness. Additionally, it's not clear what arrow keys are being used for. For example, compare how lynx handles them versus how an editor typically handles them. -- I believe the Bible to be the very Word of God: http://Mielke.cc/bible/ Dave Mielke| 2213 Fox Crescent | WebHome: http://Mielke.cc/ EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Ottawa, Ontario | Twitter: @Dave_Mielke Phone: +1 613 726 0014 | Canada K2A 1H7 | ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
Hi Dave Dave Mielke schrieb am 04.05.2022, 4:21 -0400: >[quoted lines by Christian Schoepplein on 2022/05/04 at 09:47 +0200] > >>But wouldn't it be best practice to allways speech the full >>line, no matter if they are really new or only updated? Speaking only a part >>of a line is IMHO a real bad behaviour when only working with speech because >>the user will not get the whole information of the content displayed on the >>screen. […] >In an editor, when you're actually editing (not just reading), let's say you >want to fix a single character on a long line. I rather suspect that you, >again, are quite happy that brltty only announces the new character, so that >you can be absolutely sure that it's correct, rather than respeaks the entire >line. Again, in this case you do know the context but brltty doesn't. It makes sense that BRLTTY is agnostic of this in the general case. But in case of using a keyboard for keyboard input, would it be possible to listen to all key presses to retrieve this kind of context? Regards Sebastian signature.asc Description: PGP signature ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
[quoted lines by Christian Schoepplein on 2022/05/04 at 09:47 +0200] >But wouldn't it be best practice to allways speech the full >line, no matter if they are really new or only updated? Speaking only a part >of a line is IMHO a real bad behaviour when only working with speech because >the user will not get the whole information of the content displayed on the >screen. Did you read my example at the bottom? I'll repeat it as well as give a second. When you're typing at a prompt, do you really want the whole line (including even the prompt part) respoken each time you type a character? Now, of course, in this case you do know the context - but brltty doesn't. In this case, I'm sure you're quite happy that brltty is only saying each new characte4r as it's being typed. In an editor, when you're actually editing (not just reading), let's say you want to fix a single character on a long line. I rather suspect that you, again, are quite happy that brltty only announces the new character, so that you can be absolutely sure that it's correct, rather than respeaks the entire line. Again, in this case you do know the context but brltty doesn't. -- I believe the Bible to be the very Word of God: http://Mielke.cc/bible/ Dave Mielke| 2213 Fox Crescent | WebHome: http://Mielke.cc/ EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Ottawa, Ontario | Twitter: @Dave_Mielke Phone: +1 613 726 0014 | Canada K2A 1H7 | ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
[quoted lines by Jason White on 2022/05/03 at 18:13 -0400] >the changed preferences aren't taking effect. The instance of BRLTTY which is >using AT-SPI does indeed run under my user ID. Use -ldebug to see which file it's writing to when you save and which file it's reading from when restoring. -- I believe the Bible to be the very Word of God: http://Mielke.cc/bible/ Dave Mielke| 2213 Fox Crescent | WebHome: http://Mielke.cc/ EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Ottawa, Ontario | Twitter: @Dave_Mielke Phone: +1 613 726 0014 | Canada K2A 1H7 | ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
Hello, Jason White (2022/05/03 18:13 -0400): > With apologies - I wasn't clear: the changed preferences aren't taking > effect. The instance of BRLTTY which is using AT-SPI does indeed run under > my user ID. Perhaps you can create a symlink so that your personal preference file points to the system-wide one? Sébastien. ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
Me? I use USB. Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 11:46 AM wrote: > Were you using USB or Bluetooth. Just checking so I know what to try or > not. > > > > *From:* BRLTTY *On Behalf Of *Devin Prater > *Sent:* Tuesday, May 3, 2022 11:33 AM > *To:* Informal discussion between users and developers of BRLTTY. < > brltty@brltty.app> > *Subject:* Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks. > > > > I tried compiling BRLTTY from source yesterday, to see if it'd work better > with the Humanware NLS EReader, and when running ./run_brltty as my regular > user, it would connect, but couldn't access screen and such. Running with > sudo, it apparently could access everything but didn't connect to the > device. > > Devin Prater > > r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 9:30 AM Dave Mielke wrote: > > [quoted lines by Jason White on 2022/05/02 at 14:25 -0400] > > >If I access the BRLTTY Preferences menu and change settings (e.g., to skip > >all blank windows), the settings are saved in > >/var/lib/brltty/.config/brltty/brltty.prefs. > > That's wrong, so let's start by assuming that it's the cause of the > problem. brltty.prefs should be being saved directly in /var/lib/brltty/. > The first thing I'd try is removing the bogus subdirectory, i.e.: > >cd /var/lib/brltty >rm -r .config > > This'd be best done with brltty not running. > > -- > I believe the Bible to be the very Word of God: http://Mielke.cc/bible/ > Dave Mielke| 2213 Fox Crescent | WebHome: http://Mielke.cc/ > EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Ottawa, Ontario | Twitter: @Dave_Mielke > Phone: +1 613 726 0014 | Canada K2A 1H7 | > ___ > This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. > To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app > For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty > > ___ > This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. > To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app > For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
Were you using USB or Bluetooth. Just checking so I know what to try or not. From: BRLTTY On Behalf Of Devin Prater Sent: Tuesday, May 3, 2022 11:33 AM To: Informal discussion between users and developers of BRLTTY. Subject: Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks. I tried compiling BRLTTY from source yesterday, to see if it'd work better with the Humanware NLS EReader, and when running ./run_brltty as my regular user, it would connect, but couldn't access screen and such. Running with sudo, it apparently could access everything but didn't connect to the device. Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com <mailto:r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com> On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 9:30 AM Dave Mielke mailto:d...@mielke.cc> > wrote: [quoted lines by Jason White on 2022/05/02 at 14:25 -0400] >If I access the BRLTTY Preferences menu and change settings (e.g., to skip >all blank windows), the settings are saved in >/var/lib/brltty/.config/brltty/brltty.prefs. That's wrong, so let's start by assuming that it's the cause of the problem. brltty.prefs should be being saved directly in /var/lib/brltty/. The first thing I'd try is removing the bogus subdirectory, i.e.: cd /var/lib/brltty rm -r .config This'd be best done with brltty not running. -- I believe the Bible to be the very Word of God: http://Mielke.cc/bible/ Dave Mielke| 2213 Fox Crescent | WebHome: http://Mielke.cc/ EMail: d...@mielke.cc <mailto:d...@mielke.cc> | Ottawa, Ontario | Twitter: @Dave_Mielke Phone: +1 613 726 0014 | Canada K2A 1H7 | ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app <mailto:BRLTTY@brltty.app> For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
I tried compiling BRLTTY from source yesterday, to see if it'd work better with the Humanware NLS EReader, and when running ./run_brltty as my regular user, it would connect, but couldn't access screen and such. Running with sudo, it apparently could access everything but didn't connect to the device. Devin Prater r.d.t.pra...@gmail.com On Tue, May 3, 2022 at 9:30 AM Dave Mielke wrote: > [quoted lines by Jason White on 2022/05/02 at 14:25 -0400] > > >If I access the BRLTTY Preferences menu and change settings (e.g., to skip > >all blank windows), the settings are saved in > >/var/lib/brltty/.config/brltty/brltty.prefs. > > That's wrong, so let's start by assuming that it's the cause of the > problem. brltty.prefs should be being saved directly in /var/lib/brltty/. > The first thing I'd try is removing the bogus subdirectory, i.e.: > >cd /var/lib/brltty >rm -r .config > > This'd be best done with brltty not running. > > -- > I believe the Bible to be the very Word of God: http://Mielke.cc/bible/ > Dave Mielke| 2213 Fox Crescent | WebHome: http://Mielke.cc/ > EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Ottawa, Ontario | Twitter: @Dave_Mielke > Phone: +1 613 726 0014 | Canada K2A 1H7 | > ___ > This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. > To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app > For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty > ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
[quoted lines by Jason White on 2022/05/02 at 14:25 -0400] >If I access the BRLTTY Preferences menu and change settings (e.g., to skip >all blank windows), the settings are saved in >/var/lib/brltty/.config/brltty/brltty.prefs. That's wrong, so let's start by assuming that it's the cause of the problem. brltty.prefs should be being saved directly in /var/lib/brltty/. The first thing I'd try is removing the bogus subdirectory, i.e.: cd /var/lib/brltty rm -r .config This'd be best done with brltty not running. -- I believe the Bible to be the very Word of God: http://Mielke.cc/bible/ Dave Mielke| 2213 Fox Crescent | WebHome: http://Mielke.cc/ EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Ottawa, Ontario | Twitter: @Dave_Mielke Phone: +1 613 726 0014 | Canada K2A 1H7 | ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
Re: [BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
[quoted lines by Christian Schoepplein on 2022/05/02 at 10:30 +0200] >I'd like again report the problem that not the whole line is spoken when >lines start with the same characters. Yes, thanks, reminders are always good. I haven't thought of a good solution, yet. I'll explain your two cases. Perhaps others will suggest possible approaches. >For example the following lines are not spoken fully in some situations: > >ssh >ssd >ssl > >In some situations only h, d and l are spoken. Yes. The case is when the same physical line on the screen is used. Since brltty doesn't know what you've actually done - it just passively raeds the screen - it sees that as an updated line rather than a switch to a different line. >Unfortunatly this behaviour is not allways reproducable but I think it >ocures when the screen is wrapped e.g. in an editor because the lines are >located at the bottom. Within an editor, this will typically happen either when you're at the bottom of the screen and move down or at the top of the screen and move up. In these cases, you've technically moved to a new line but what actually happens on the screen is that you stay on the same physical line while the screen has been scrolled. You can probably work around this one by telling the editor to scroll by at least two lines at a time. >I can reproduce it in bash, but I don't know if this is a wanted behaviour >or a bug: My opinion is that it's a bit of both. :-) >1. Write ssl and press enter. >2. Write ssd and press arrow up. > >In that case only l is spoken and not ssl... Ths is a different case. When you arrow up in bash, what's really happening is that the prompt line is being rewritten from history. So, in this case, it really is an update of the current line. When you type, for example, you only want to hear each new chracter as you type it - you don't want the whole line to be continually respoken. That's why brltty only speaks changes to the same line. -- I believe the Bible to be the very Word of God: http://Mielke.cc/bible/ Dave Mielke| 2213 Fox Crescent | WebHome: http://Mielke.cc/ EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Ottawa, Ontario | Twitter: @Dave_Mielke Phone: +1 613 726 0014 | Canada K2A 1H7 | ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
[BRLTTY] 6.5 within a couple of weeks.
The current plan is to release 6.5 during the week of May 9. Please let us know of any problems (not new features) that need to be resolved. -- I believe the Bible to be the very Word of God: http://Mielke.cc/bible/ Dave Mielke| 2213 Fox Crescent | WebHome: http://Mielke.cc/ EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Ottawa, Ontario | Twitter: @Dave_Mielke Phone: +1 613 726 0014 | Canada K2A 1H7 | ___ This message was sent via the BRLTTY mailing list. To post a message, send an e-mail to: BRLTTY@brltty.app For general information, go to: http://brltty.app/mailman/listinfo/brltty
