Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[Mario Lang]

Felix Grützmacher - Handy Tech Elektronik GmbH
 writes:

> Here is a log excerpt created from running as debug. Seems something went
> wrong.

Basically the exact same log was already submitted by you in July 2016.
Dave analyzed it quite in detail in 
<20160712095617.gp26...@beta.private.mielke.cc>.

Reading the thread from back then (which unfortunately didn't come to a
conclusion), I have the feeling the bug is in libusb-1.0, or at least,
in how we use it.  Having written the support for AB4, I definitely know
it worked on Linux, I just don't have any right now to test it.
However, I know my AS4 is working on Linux via USB.

> 2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 usbSubmitRequest error 40: Function not implemented.

I don't particularily remember ever having seen this message on Linux.
While I understand from reading the reply linked above that this is
just a warning, I still wonder if this might be the crucial difference.
AIUI, Dave is saying this warning would force the core to communicate
differently with the device, maybe something it doesn't do on Linux?

We basically have two different types of Handy Tech USB HID
implementations in the driver.
The first generation (usbOperations2) was when the Easy Braille was released.
In that version, we are reading/writing from/to the device via
HID reports (usbHidGetReport()/usbHidSetReport()).  Later
on, somehwere around the Active Braille, this didn't work anymore.
We had to change to reading/writing HID frames from/to the USB endpoint 
directly.
Without ever having tried so, I have a feeling maybe these two different
implementations aren't really necessary, and we should be able to
implement AB with the HID report layer as well.  For that train of
thought it would be interesting to know if the
Braille Star HID or Easy Braille do work with BRLTTY on Windows.
As I suspect you might have some around, Felix, could you please check
if usbOperations2 devices do work on Windows (USB Product ID 0X0044 or 0X0074).

And as you probably know a lot about the firmware, maybe you have an
idea what the difference between an Easy Braille and an Active
Braille USB interface is, and why we had to adapt the code when the
Active Braille was released.  It clearly worked on Linux, but strictly
speaking, if I remember correctly, we were really just guessing back
then, and what we guessed happend to work on Linux.
After all of these years, I am still far from being an expert in the
lower-level details of USB, however, I can't get rid of the feeling that
the way how usbOperations3 is implemented feels a bit like a hybrid.

Just some stabs into the dark, trying to dig up driver dev history to
maybe find a way to adapt our code without needing to hope/wait for a
libusb fix.

-- 
CYa,
  ⡍⠁⠗⠊⠕
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Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[Dave Mielke]

[quoted lines by Felix Grützmacher - Help Tech Elektronik GmbH on 2017/04/05 at 
16:05 +0200]

I'm hoping that the problem isn't libusb-1.0 truncating the USB configuration
descriptor. The output endpoint would probably be the last one, i.e. at the
very end of that data, so it's a possibility for sure.

-- 
Dave Mielke   | 2213 Fox Crescent | The Bible is the very Word of God.
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | http://Mielke.cc/bible/
EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | http://FamilyRadio.org/
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Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[Felix Grützmacher - Help Tech Elektronik GmbH]

Hello again,
I'll see what we can do. I think tomorrow we may get around to doing what
you suggested and then I'll send you the file asap.
Sorry again for the comment which was so easily misconstrued as demoralizing
when it actually referred to a very specific nuance of what we discussed.
Kind regards,
Felix Grützmacher


Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Best regards

Felix Grützmacher
Softwareentwickler

Handy Tech Elektronik GmbH
Brunnenstraße 10
72160 Horb
Germany

Tel: +49 (0)7451 5546-37
Fax: +49 (0)7451 5546-67
E-Mail: felix.gruetzmac...@handytech.de  
Internet: www.handytech.de

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Horb-Nordstetten - Handelsregister Stuttgart HRB
440471 - Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Ing. Siegfried Kipke - USt-IdNr.: DE 213 128
795
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-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: BRLTTY [mailto:brltty-boun...@brltty.com] Im Auftrag von Dave Mielke
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 5. April 2017 16:02
An: Informal discussion between users and developers of BRLTTY.
Betreff: Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[quoted lines by Felix Grützmacher - Help Tech Elektronik GmbH on 2017/04/05
at 13:55 +0200]

>I don't use Linux at all so it might take me a while to get to a point 
>where I'd be of some actual use rather than ask a lot of questions, so 
>I'm reluctant to go down that road.

The thing is that I don't know Windows well enough to guide you as to what
to look at on the system. In this case, I'd like to verify the USB
descriptors on the AB that you're using. On Linux that's as simple as
looking at a text-based kernel-provided pseudo file. I've no idea if Windows
has a similar capability.

>A sighted colleague of mine is a Linuxer though and might assist me if 
>you could please point me to a distribution you would recommend, 
>preferrably one already containing BRLTTY.

In this case, any distribution would do and brltty doesn't even need to be
on the system. What I'd like is for the AB to be connected to the system,
and, after a couple of seconds to let USB enumeration settle down, I'd like
to see a copy of the file /sys/kernel/debug/usb/devices. Could this be
easily done?

Anotehr alternative could be for me to build another version of brltty for
Windows which would log a complete hex dump of the USB descriptors.

-- 
Dave Mielke   | 2213 Fox Crescent | The Bible is the very Word of
God.
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | http://Mielke.cc/bible/
EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | http://FamilyRadio.org/
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Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[Felix Grützmacher - Help Tech Elektronik GmbH]

Sorry for the misunderstanding. It was relevant all along for many users of
NVDA in combination with lots of Braille displays for which no native NVDA
drivers existed, so BRLTTY has its firm place on Windows, just not yet with
those two devices.
The effort of making it work on Windows was never wasted. And now it's
become relevant for AS4/AB4.
Kind regards,
Felix Grützmacher

Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Best regards

Felix Grützmacher
Softwareentwickler

Handy Tech Elektronik GmbH
Brunnenstraße 10
72160 Horb
Germany

Tel: +49 (0)7451 5546-37
Fax: +49 (0)7451 5546-67
E-Mail: felix.gruetzmac...@handytech.de  
Internet: www.handytech.de

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Horb-Nordstetten - Handelsregister Stuttgart HRB
440471 - Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Ing. Siegfried Kipke - USt-IdNr.: DE 213 128
795
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-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: BRLTTY [mailto:brltty-boun...@brltty.com] Im Auftrag von Dave Mielke
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 5. April 2017 15:55
An: Informal discussion between users and developers of BRLTTY.
Betreff: Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[quoted lines by Felix Grützmacher - Help Tech Elektronik GmbH on 2017/04/05
at 14:18 +0200]

>This has suddenly become a relevant platform as we'd like to be 
>supported in Narrator, as it's a part of the OS.

:-( I wish it'd been a relevant platform all along! Oh well ... better later
than never.

-- 
Dave Mielke   | 2213 Fox Crescent | The Bible is the very Word of
God.
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | http://Mielke.cc/bible/
EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | http://FamilyRadio.org/
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Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[Dave Mielke]

[quoted lines by Felix Grützmacher - Help Tech Elektronik GmbH on 2017/04/05 at 
13:55 +0200]

>I don't use Linux at all so it might take me a while to get to a point where
>I'd be of some actual use rather than ask a lot of questions, so I'm
>reluctant to go down that road. 

The thing is that I don't know Windows well enough to guide you as to what to 
look at on the system. In this case, I'd like to verify the USB descriptors on 
the AB that you're using. On Linux that's as simple as looking at a text-based 
kernel-provided pseudo file. I've no idea if Windows has a similar capability.

>A sighted colleague of mine is a Linuxer though and might assist me if you 
>could please point me to a distribution you would recommend, preferrably one 
>already containing BRLTTY. 

In this case, any distribution would do and brltty doesn't even need to be on 
the system. What I'd like is for the AB to be connected to the system, and, 
after a couple of seconds to let USB enumeration settle down, I'd like to see a 
copy of the file /sys/kernel/debug/usb/devices. Could this be easily done?

Anotehr alternative could be for me to build another version of brltty for 
Windows which would log a complete hex dump of the USB descriptors.

-- 
Dave Mielke   | 2213 Fox Crescent | The Bible is the very Word of God.
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | http://Mielke.cc/bible/
EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | http://FamilyRadio.org/
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Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[Dave Mielke]

[quoted lines by Felix Grützmacher - Help Tech Elektronik GmbH on 2017/04/05 at 
14:18 +0200]

>This has suddenly become a relevant platform as we'd like to be supported in 
>Narrator, as it's a part of the OS.

:-( I wish it'd been a relevant platform all along! Oh well ... better later 
than never.

-- 
Dave Mielke   | 2213 Fox Crescent | The Bible is the very Word of God.
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | http://Mielke.cc/bible/
EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | http://FamilyRadio.org/
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Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[Felix Grützmacher - Help Tech Elektronik GmbH]

Mario you might be right!
This has suddenly become a relevant platform as we'd like to be supported in 
Narrator, as it's a part of the OS.
Kind regards,
Felix Grützmacher


Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Best regards

Felix Grützmacher
Softwareentwickler

Handy Tech Elektronik GmbH
Brunnenstraße 10
72160 Horb
Germany

Tel: +49 (0)7451 5546-37
Fax: +49 (0)7451 5546-67
E-Mail: felix.gruetzmac...@handytech.de  
Internet: www.handytech.de

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Horb-Nordstetten - Handelsregister Stuttgart HRB 440471 
- Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Ing. Siegfried Kipke - USt-IdNr.: DE 213 128 795
headquarter: Horb-Nordstetten · company registration office: Stuttgart HRB 
440471 · owner / manager: Dipl.-Ing. Siegfried Kipke · USt-IdNr.: DE 213 128 795

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-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: BRLTTY [mailto:brltty-boun...@brltty.com] Im Auftrag von Mario Lang
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 5. April 2017 14:06
An: 'Informal discussion between users and developers of BRLTTY.'
Betreff: Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

Felix Gr tzmacher - Help Tech Elektronik GmbH  
writes:

> yes, this is an actual physical Active Braille it's talking to, with 
> standard firmware.

I might be lying, but I believe Felix is the first person to test AB/AS models 
on Windows.  At least I never did, and I don't remember any AB/AS uwsers on 
Windows.  So this might as well be a platform specific problem.

--
CYa,
  ?
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Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[Mario Lang]

Felix Grützmacher - Help Tech Elektronik GmbH
 writes:

> yes, this is an actual physical Active Braille it's talking to, with
> standard firmware.

I might be lying, but I believe Felix is the first person to test AB/AS
models on Windows.  At least I never did, and I don't remember any AB/AS
uwsers on Windows.  So this might as well be a platform specific problem.

-- 
CYa,
  ⡍⠁⠗⠊⠕
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Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[Felix Grützmacher - Help Tech Elektronik GmbH]

I don't use Linux at all so it might take me a while to get to a point where
I'd be of some actual use rather than ask a lot of questions, so I'm
reluctant to go down that road. A sighted colleague of mine is a Linuxer
though and might assist me if you could please point me to a distribution
you would recommend, preferrably one already containing BRLTTY.
Don't know however if we got the resources right now. On the Windows side, I
can do further testing immediately.
Kind regards,
Felix Grützmacher


Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Best regards

Felix Grützmacher
Softwareentwickler

Handy Tech Elektronik GmbH
Brunnenstraße 10
72160 Horb
Germany

Tel: +49 (0)7451 5546-37
Fax: +49 (0)7451 5546-67
E-Mail: felix.gruetzmac...@handytech.de  
Internet: www.handytech.de

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Horb-Nordstetten - Handelsregister Stuttgart HRB
440471 - Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Ing. Siegfried Kipke - USt-IdNr.: DE 213 128
795
headquarter: Horb-Nordstetten · company registration office: Stuttgart HRB
440471 · owner / manager: Dipl.-Ing. Siegfried Kipke · USt-IdNr.: DE 213 128
795

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-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: BRLTTY [mailto:brltty-boun...@brltty.com] Im Auftrag von Dave Mielke
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 5. April 2017 13:45
An: Informal discussion between users and developers of BRLTTY.
Betreff: Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[quoted lines by Felix Grützmacher - Help Tech Elektronik GmbH on 2017/04/05
at 13:09 +0200]

>yes, this is an actual physical Active Braille it's talking to, with 
>standard firmware.
>All Active Braille and Active Star and Actilino devices have this USB 
>architecture and are using the same endpoints. If you need any 
>specifics, feel free to let me know and I'll dive into our firmware 
>code to dig them up.

Do you happen to have access to a Linux system where we can probably debug
this issue a bit better? Maybe there isn't even a problem on Linux. That'd
be good to know, too.

-- 
Dave Mielke   | 2213 Fox Crescent | The Bible is the very Word of
God.
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | http://Mielke.cc/bible/
EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | http://FamilyRadio.org/
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Re: [BRLTTY] Using liblouis translation in brltty

[Dave Mielke]

[quoted lines by Vikash Kesharwani on 2017/04/05 at 16:33 +0530]

>Any idea how brailleback uses liblouis?

No, but I do know how to use liblouis. I look after another piece of software 
that does use it for both forward and backward translation. I'm even very 
familiar with liblouis tables, now, since I spent a couple of weeks putting 
together a proper one for the Greek language.

Now don't start assuming that I actuall know Greek. I don't. I did it with 
plenty of good, partient advice and testing from a Greek person.

-- 
Dave Mielke   | 2213 Fox Crescent | The Bible is the very Word of God.
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | http://Mielke.cc/bible/
EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | http://FamilyRadio.org/
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Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[Dave Mielke]

[quoted lines by Felix Grützmacher - Help Tech Elektronik GmbH on 2017/04/05 at 
13:09 +0200]

>yes, this is an actual physical Active Braille it's talking to, with
>standard firmware.
>All Active Braille and Active Star and Actilino devices have this USB
>architecture and are using the same endpoints. If you need any specifics,
>feel free to let me know and I'll dive into our firmware code to dig them
>up.

Do you happen to have access to a Linux system where we can probably debug this 
issue a bit better? Maybe there isn't even a problem on Linux. That'd be good 
to know, too.

-- 
Dave Mielke   | 2213 Fox Crescent | The Bible is the very Word of God.
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | http://Mielke.cc/bible/
EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | http://FamilyRadio.org/
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Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[Felix Grützmacher - Help Tech Elektronik GmbH]

Hello,
yes, this is an actual physical Active Braille it's talking to, with
standard firmware.
All Active Braille and Active Star and Actilino devices have this USB
architecture and are using the same endpoints. If you need any specifics,
feel free to let me know and I'll dive into our firmware code to dig them
up.
Kind regards,
Felix Grützmacher


Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Best regards

Felix Grützmacher
Softwareentwickler

Handy Tech Elektronik GmbH
Brunnenstraße 10
72160 Horb
Germany

Tel: +49 (0)7451 5546-37
Fax: +49 (0)7451 5546-67
E-Mail: felix.gruetzmac...@handytech.de  
Internet: www.handytech.de

Sitz der Gesellschaft: Horb-Nordstetten - Handelsregister Stuttgart HRB
440471 - Geschäftsführer: Dipl.-Ing. Siegfried Kipke - USt-IdNr.: DE 213 128
795
headquarter: Horb-Nordstetten · company registration office: Stuttgart HRB
440471 · owner / manager: Dipl.-Ing. Siegfried Kipke · USt-IdNr.: DE 213 128
795

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-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: BRLTTY [mailto:brltty-boun...@brltty.com] Im Auftrag von Dave Mielke
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 5. April 2017 10:38
An: Informal discussion between users and developers of BRLTTY.
Betreff: Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[quoted lines by Felix Grützmacher - Handy Tech Elektronik GmbH on
2017/04/05 at 09:21 +0200]

>just to be sure: after installing, what would I need to do to make 
>BRLTTY Braille within a console window that I launch?

It should just work. Sébastien is correct that you need the Windows screen
driver, but that's the default on Windows.

>Here is a log excerpt created from running as debug. Seems something 
>went wrong.

Is it correct that you're using an Active Braille?

The problem is that it's looking for USB output endpoint 1 and not finding
it. 
Do you have Active Braille models that use a different USB output endpoint?

-- 
Dave Mielke   | 2213 Fox Crescent | The Bible is the very Word of
God.
Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | http://Mielke.cc/bible/
EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | http://FamilyRadio.org/
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Re: [BRLTTY] Using liblouis translation in brltty

[Vikash Kesharwani]

Any idea how brailleback uses liblouis?

--
Thanks & Regards,
Vikash Kesarwani
Lead Engineer - Software
Kritikal Solutions Pvt. Ltd.
Tel: +91 120 4048600

On Tue, Apr 4, 2017 at 9:01 PM, Dave Mielke  wrote:

> [quoted lines by Vikash Kesharwani on 2017/04/04 at 20:48 +0530]
>
> >This feature is really urgent. I cannot wait for the release. If you could
> >guide me through the process, I can implement it and submit a patch later.
>
> It's a little tricky since the translation would be taking place outside of
> brltty. We'd essentially need a third type of table - the two we currently
> have
> are native and executable. I'll do it but just don't want to jeopardize
> the 5.5
> release with any significant code changes.
>
> >Regarding the interface for specifying it, I think it can be done as we do
> >for *--text-table* and *--tables-directory* , since their usage is pretty
> >similar.
>
> Yes, but that isn't the issue. How do we tell the -t option (or the
> text-table
> directive) that a liblouis table is being specified?
>
> --
> Dave Mielke   | 2213 Fox Crescent | The Bible is the very Word of
> God.
> Phone: 1-613-726-0014 | Ottawa, Ontario   | http://Mielke.cc/bible/
> EMail: d...@mielke.cc | Canada  K2A 1H7   | http://FamilyRadio.org/
> ___
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> For general information, go to: http://brltty.com/mailman/listinfo/brltty
>
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Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[Dave Mielke]

[quoted lines by Felix Grützmacher - Handy Tech Elektronik GmbH on 2017/04/05 
at 09:21 +0200]

>just to be sure: after installing, what would I need to do to make BRLTTY
>Braille within a console window that I launch?

It should just work. Sébastien is correct that you need the Windows screen 
driver, but that's the default on Windows.

>Here is a log excerpt created from running as debug. Seems something went
>wrong.

Is it correct that you're using an Active Braille?

The problem is that it's looking for USB output endpoint 1 and not finding it. 
Do you have Active Braille models that use a different USB output endpoint?

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Re: [BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[Shérab]

Hi Felix,

Felix Grützmacher - Handy Tech Elektronik GmbH (2017/04/05 09:21 +0200):
> Hello,
> 
> just to be sure: after installing, what would I need to do to make BRLTTY
> Braille within a console window that I launch?

I think you need to run brltty with the appropriate (Windows) screen
driver.
On the command-line that would be option -x wn I think.
There should be a screen-driver configuration directive, too.

Shérab.
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[BRLTTY] Testing on Windows

[Felix Grützmacher - Handy Tech Elektronik GmbH]

Hello,

just to be sure: after installing, what would I need to do to make BRLTTY
Braille within a console window that I launch?

Here is a log excerpt created from running as debug. Seems something went
wrong.

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: testing device: vendor=1FE4 product=0054

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: setup packet: Typ:80 Req:06 Val:0300 Idx:
Len:00FF

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: control input: 04 03 09 04

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: USB language: 409

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: setup packet: Typ:80 Req:06 Val:0301 Idx:0409
Len:00FF

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: control input: 36 03 48 00 61 00 6E 00 64 00 79
00 20 00 54 00 65 00 63 00 68 00 20 00 45 00 6C 00 65 00 6B 00 74 00 72 00
6F 00 6E 00 69 00 6B 00 20 00 47 00 6D 00 62 00 48 00

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: Manufacturer Name: Handy Tech Elektronik GmbH

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: setup packet: Typ:80 Req:06 Val:0302 Idx:0409
Len:00FF

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: control input: 1E 03 41 00 63 00 74 00 69 00 76
00 65 00 20 00 42 00 72 00 61 00 69 00 6C 00 6C 00 65 00

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: Product Description: Active Braille

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: setup packet: Typ:80 Req:06 Val:0303 Idx:0409
Len:00FF

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: control input: 1A 03 41 00 42 00 34 00 2F 00 41
00 31 00 2D 00 31 00 32 00 31 00 34 00 31 00

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: Serial Number: AB4/A1-12141

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: setting configuration: 1

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: setup packet: Typ:80 Req:06 Val:0200 Idx:
Len:00FF

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: control input: 09 02 29 00 01 01 00 80 32 09 04
00 00 02 03 00 00 00 09 21 10 01 00 01 22 46 20 07 05 81 03 08 00 0A 07 05
02 03 01 00 0A

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: claiming interface: 0

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 program exit event added: sorted-usb-serial-adapters

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: ept=81 dir=in xfr=int pkt=8 ivl=10ms

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: clearing endpoint: 81

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 usbSubmitRequest error 40: Function not implemented.

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: endpoint descriptor not found: 01

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 USB: releasing interface: 0

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 braille driver initialization failed: ht -> USB:

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 braille driver not found

2017-04-05@09:05:11.514 activity action failed: braille-driver: start

Anything I can do to help narrow this down?

Kind regards,

Felix Grützmacher

 

Mit freundlichen Grüßen/Best regards

 

Felix Grützmacher

Softwareentwickler

 

Handy Tech Elektronik GmbH

Brunnenstraße 10

72160 Horb

Germany

 

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