Re: [Callers] Giant dance database?

[Aahz Maruch via Callers]

On Wed, Jul 30, 2014, Michael Fuerst via Callers wrote:
>
> Actually a global contra dance database seems like a bad idea.  Who
> will decide what dances merit placement in the database?  A much
> better idea is for CDSS to maintain a web page with either copies of
> web page(s) with authors' dances, somewhat like Cary Ravitz now does:
> http://ravitz.us/caller/ It would be best for CDSS to keep a copy of
> each composer's dances, so to preserve them when the author dies.

Overall, this makes sense; however, remember that Maia is partly doing
this for programming practice.  There's an old programmer saying: "Rough
consensus and running code," which means that working code trumps most
other considerations.  I think your proposal runs the risk of having
nothing because people will spend time talking and talking and talking
and talking about it; if Maia's project pans out, she could (should!) be
encouraged to turn it over to CDSS to run and maintain it.

> Anyone could submit page(s) of dances, and CDSS would make no
> judgement as to the quality of the dances.  One might want to set up a
> mechanism so an author can edit the pages with her/his dances Visitors
> could then peruse any author's dances, and initiate discussion about
> specific dances on a forum similar to this one.

The design discussion for these features is in many ways completely
different from the basic database design discussion, with all kinds of
security/privacy issues.  They can be tacked on by competent programmers
more-or-less independently of the underlying database.  I strongly
recommend skipping it for now.
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Re: [Callers] New Dance: Dirty Rotten Double Crosser

[Aahz Maruch via Callers]

On Sun, Jul 27, 2014, Don Veino via Callers wrote:
> 
> *Dirty Rotten Double Crosser* - DI - Don Veino 23 July 2014, Intermediate
> (Cross Trails)
> 
> *A1*
> (4,4) Ring Balance, Petronella Twirl
> (4,4) Ring Balance, Cross Trail (Pass N by Right across, P by Left up/down)

You definitely need to be careful explaining this -- I think of Cross
Trail as leaving dancers facing the same direction, although your variant
is also common.  (No idea which is more common, particularly given the
collapse of "Cross Trail" in general.)

If I were to call this, I would probably change it to Square Thru 2
(with/without hands) just to reuse vocabulary that dancers are more
likely to know.
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Re: [Callers] New vs. Variation

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

Ron, what a great question.  I think it's interesting that Ted  
Sannella once said that a dance had to have 50% different  
choreography in order to be a new dance.   Although I never asked him  
why, it occurred to me that there might be a historical reason for  
his view.


Take Petronella, Hull's Victory and others.  They have unigue A parts  
but the same B: ones down the center, return, cast, rights and lefts


Chorus Jig and Rory O'More fit the same pattern, different A but  
share the same B.


Even squares can fit the same pattern.  Look at how many squares have  
as their B part, circle left half, swing corner, promenade.


T
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Re: [Callers] Fwd: Timing on a zig and zag

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

In my opinion a zig and a zag past one couple takes four beats, sort  
of like a half do-si-do as couples.  So I agree that it takes 8 beats  
it takes to weave the line past two couples.



Tom
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[Callers] Fwd: Timing on a zig and zag

[Jack Mitchell via Callers]

All of the zig zag dances I can think of end with something where the
timing can be "squishy".  (ie, Cows are Watching: Gents Allemande, P Sw;
Leave the Wine: N DsD, previous N Sw).  As you said in your original post,
the timing can be slightly different in different dances. That being the
case, I think a Do si Do or Gypsy with the new neighbor might make the
dancers more likely to be able to be successful.  For experienced dancers,
the balance happening late can feel really unsatisfying, but it isn't
nearly as noticable with a move that has a smooth transition.

Jack


On Wed, Jul 30, 2014 at 11:14 PM, Luke Donforth via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Hello folks,
>
> Thanks for all the insight on Grand Marches. It was a very fruitful
> discussion for me, so I'm going to toss another question out there.
>
> What timing do you like for zig and zag the set? The (uncommon) move where
> you and someone else (usually partner) move out to one side and slip behind
> the couple you were facing to face a new couple, and then possibly do it
> again where you keep going and then cut back to face a 3rd couple (double
> progression).
>
> I've got dances in my box that have a zig and zag in 8 (single
> progression) like Bill Pope's "The Cows Are Watching"; and I've got danced
> in my box that zig-zag-zig (double progression) in 8, like Rick Mohr's
> "Leave the Wine".
>
> A couple of the zig-zag dances I've seen do the zig and zag in, pairing it
> with a circle 1 1/4 or such (Will Mentor's "Frock's Rocking Frolic").
>
> I've danced and enjoyed all of these dances, or they wouldn't be in my
> box, but it seems a squishier move on timing than most; so I'm curious what
> people think about it; and/or what they ask for the band when calling one
> of these.
>
> This came up for me when I was playing with a new (I think) choreography.
> I put forth two possibilities drawing inspiration from Linda Leslie's
> Winter Storm and Bill Olson's 20 Below (side question, which one came
> first?).
>
> Becket, double progression cw
> A1
> Circle Left 3/4
> With Partner, zig left, zag right past a couple, zig left to face another
> new couple
> A2
> New Neighbor Gypsy and Swing
> B1
> Men allemande Left 1 1/2
> Pass Partner Right to start 1/2 hey
> B2
> Partner Gypsy and Swing
>
> Becket, single progression cw
> A1
> Circle Left 3/4
> With Partner, zig left, zag right to face new couple
> A2
> New Neighbor balance and swing
> B1
> Men allemande Left 1 1/2
> Pass Partner to start 1/2 hey by Right
> B2
> Partner Balance and Swing
>
> And for those of you who have stuck with my rambling this long, I'll toss
> another one out there:
>
> Becket, single progression, ccw
> A1
> Circle Left 1 1/4
> with Partner: Zig left, zag right to face new couple
> A2
> New Neighbor balance and swing
> B1
> Promenade across set with Neighbor
> Women Do-Si-Do 1 1/2
> B2
> Partner Balance and Swing
>
> If I had enough dancers, I'd just medley them; using the double
> progression every other time so you'd always see new faces... no, wait,
> that's a terrible idea.
>
> Thoughts or experience?
>
> Thanks again!
>
> --
> Luke Donforth
> luke.donfo...@gmail.com 
>
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>
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Re: [Callers] Timing on a zig and zag

[Linda Leslie via Callers]

HI, Luke!
I looked up Bill’s web site, and found that he wrote 20 Below in Feb, 2003. 
Coincidentally enough, I came up with The Winter Storm that very same month and 
year…..I was on the ferry to Martha’s Vineyard to call a dance over there, and 
there was a cold, windy, snowy storm….but not enough to keep the ferries in 
port! I thought of the dance while on the ferry. The storm was the biggest part 
of the story; but I also know that at that time, some of us were attempting to 
come up with dances that had a different start than “circle left 3/4, swing N”. 
I learned about Bill’s dance a few years later. Since the A’s are a bit 
different from each other, I believe they do qualify as different dances…..but 
not by much!  So it will be interesting to see what folks have to say about 
Ron’s most recent question…..

As for zig zags, I find it very useful that the timing is “squishy” , or 
“forgiving” in some compositions, since this means that many dance styles and 
abilities are accommodated. In Meg’s Choice, by Sue Rosen, called in Rehoboth 
by the author, Amy Larkin and Bob Golder were dancing together, and they turned 
the zig/zag motion into a playful poussette. Very nice!

Your final entry below is very similar to Boys from Urbana by John Coffman.
Becket-CW
A1 ---
(8) Circle Left 3/4 (with P)
Zig left Zag right
New gents alle left 1/2
A2 ---
(16) Neighbor balance and swing
B1 ---
(8) Long lines, forward and back
(8) Women allemande Right 1-1/2
B2 ---
(16) Partner balance and swing

I believe in your second, single progression dance, the dancers may arrive 
early for the N B—a bit too “squishy” for some? 
 
The dances may very well be new compositions, so I look forward to hearing from 
others on the list. 
warmly, Linda

On Jul 30, 2014, at 11:14 PM, Luke Donforth via Callers 
 wrote:

> Hello folks,
> 
> Thanks for all the insight on Grand Marches. It was a very fruitful 
> discussion for me, so I'm going to toss another question out there. 
> 
> What timing do you like for zig and zag the set? The (uncommon) move where 
> you and someone else (usually partner) move out to one side and slip behind 
> the couple you were facing to face a new couple, and then possibly do it 
> again where you keep going and then cut back to face a 3rd couple (double 
> progression).
> 
> I've got dances in my box that have a zig and zag in 8 (single progression) 
> like Bill Pope's "The Cows Are Watching"; and I've got danced in my box that 
> zig-zag-zig (double progression) in 8, like Rick Mohr's "Leave the Wine".  
> 
> A couple of the zig-zag dances I've seen do the zig and zag in, pairing it 
> with a circle 1 1/4 or such (Will Mentor's "Frock's Rocking Frolic").
> 
> I've danced and enjoyed all of these dances, or they wouldn't be in my box, 
> but it seems a squishier move on timing than most; so I'm curious what people 
> think about it; and/or what they ask for the band when calling one of these. 
> 
> This came up for me when I was playing with a new (I think) choreography. I 
> put forth two possibilities drawing inspiration from Linda Leslie's Winter 
> Storm and Bill Olson's 20 Below (side question, which one came first?). 
> 
> Becket, double progression cw
> A1 
> Circle Left 3/4
> With Partner, zig left, zag right past a couple, zig left to face another new 
> couple
> A2
> New Neighbor Gypsy and Swing
> B1
> Men allemande Left 1 1/2
> Pass Partner Right to start 1/2 hey 
> B2
> Partner Gypsy and Swing
> 
> Becket, single progression cw
> A1
> Circle Left 3/4
> With Partner, zig left, zag right to face new couple
> A2
> New Neighbor balance and swing
> B1 
> Men allemande Left 1 1/2
> Pass Partner to start 1/2 hey by Right
> B2
> Partner Balance and Swing
> 
> And for those of you who have stuck with my rambling this long, I'll toss 
> another one out there:
> 
> Becket, single progression, ccw
> A1
> Circle Left 1 1/4
> with Partner: Zig left, zag right to face new couple
> A2
> New Neighbor balance and swing
> B1
> Promenade across set with Neighbor
> Women Do-Si-Do 1 1/2
> B2
> Partner Balance and Swing
> 
> If I had enough dancers, I'd just medley them; using the double progression 
> every other time so you'd always see new faces... no, wait, that's a terrible 
> idea. 
> 
> Thoughts or experience?
> 
> Thanks again!
> 
> -- 
> Luke Donforth
> luke.donfo...@gmail.com
> ___
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[Callers] New vs. Variation

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

This question boils down, to me, to the question of "How much different
does a dance need to be to be considered a new dance rather than a
variation of an existing dance?"

I've heard the 25% guideline. (So 8 measures for a 32 measure dance.) But
it's obviously not that simple. If I flip the A and B of many dances,
they're danceable but clearly not new dances, just variations.

What are your thoughts on what makes a dance "new" vs "variation"?

-Ron T Blechner

(As for the database, having a way to tag that other callers have
successfully called it would add legitimacy.)

On Jul 30, 2014 3:40 AM, "Michael Fuerst via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Who will decide what dances merit placement in the database?
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[Callers] Timing on a zig and zag

[Luke Donforth via Callers]

Hello folks,

Thanks for all the insight on Grand Marches. It was a very fruitful
discussion for me, so I'm going to toss another question out there.

What timing do you like for zig and zag the set? The (uncommon) move where
you and someone else (usually partner) move out to one side and slip behind
the couple you were facing to face a new couple, and then possibly do it
again where you keep going and then cut back to face a 3rd couple (double
progression).

I've got dances in my box that have a zig and zag in 8 (single progression)
like Bill Pope's "The Cows Are Watching"; and I've got danced in my box
that zig-zag-zig (double progression) in 8, like Rick Mohr's "Leave the
Wine".

A couple of the zig-zag dances I've seen do the zig and zag in, pairing it
with a circle 1 1/4 or such (Will Mentor's "Frock's Rocking Frolic").

I've danced and enjoyed all of these dances, or they wouldn't be in my box,
but it seems a squishier move on timing than most; so I'm curious what
people think about it; and/or what they ask for the band when calling one
of these.

This came up for me when I was playing with a new (I think) choreography. I
put forth two possibilities drawing inspiration from Linda Leslie's Winter
Storm and Bill Olson's 20 Below (side question, which one came first?).

Becket, double progression cw
A1
Circle Left 3/4
With Partner, zig left, zag right past a couple, zig left to face another
new couple
A2
New Neighbor Gypsy and Swing
B1
Men allemande Left 1 1/2
Pass Partner Right to start 1/2 hey
B2
Partner Gypsy and Swing

Becket, single progression cw
A1
Circle Left 3/4
With Partner, zig left, zag right to face new couple
A2
New Neighbor balance and swing
B1
Men allemande Left 1 1/2
Pass Partner to start 1/2 hey by Right
B2
Partner Balance and Swing

And for those of you who have stuck with my rambling this long, I'll toss
another one out there:

Becket, single progression, ccw
A1
Circle Left 1 1/4
with Partner: Zig left, zag right to face new couple
A2
New Neighbor balance and swing
B1
Promenade across set with Neighbor
Women Do-Si-Do 1 1/2
B2
Partner Balance and Swing

If I had enough dancers, I'd just medley them; using the double progression
every other time so you'd always see new faces... no, wait, that's a
terrible idea.

Thoughts or experience?

Thanks again!

-- 
Luke Donforth
luke.donfo...@gmail.com 
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