Re: [Callers] freedom

[Woody Lane via Callers]

These are good points, and they bring up a larger situation. Presumably, 
Tom accepted the gig months ahead of the date (like all of us). A few 
days before the gig, he receives the new "rule". Does anyone think that 
there might be a slight ethical problem here?


When we accept a gig, it's an agreement between two consenting parties. 
This is, in fact, a contract. I'm not talking about a long legal 
document with pages of small print in a sans serif font. That's not 
customary in our dance culture, although in other types of performances 
it may be the norm. In any case, in the contra dance world, nearly all 
the specifics are not in writing; they are just accepted behaviors and 
conventions. The artist (here, the caller) accepted the gig with certain 
expectations -- microphone, payment, times, etc. The organizers have 
expectations of quality, preparation, being on time, etc. These are all 
cultural norms. Every community has its own way of approaching this. 
After all, this is a community dance, and things are often pretty loose 
with lots of volunteer helpers, not a hard-knuckled bargaining dispute 
between unions and coal mine owners.


Here's the issue: Let's assume that the new terminology rule had been 
decided up by the organizing committee after Tom's gig date had been 
scheduled and finalized. But Tom didn't learn about this change until 
just before the gig. I think the organizers have a responsibility here 
to convey their decision to the caller in a timely manner and ask if the 
caller still wanted to do the gig with this new condition.


Alternatively, the organizers could set a future date when this rule 
would become a rigid part of the agreement, and any scheduling for gigs 
after that date would include that rule in the initial back-and-forth 
communications between the caller and the organizers. That gives both 
parties all the information they need to make their decisions.


The awkward period would be the transition period that Tom was caught in 
-- where the rule was conveyed close to the gig date and the caller had 
to accept it "fait accompli" or cancel. By laying down a rigid rule 
unilaterally, the organizers actually broke the agreement. No one wants 
this, but IMO that's what they did. But Tom wanted the gig, accepted the 
change, and was gracious enough to adjust and call it anyway


In that case, however, I think the organizers could have conveyed 
something different -- like Yoyo gently described -- that the organizers 
"prefer" that the caller avoid the word "gypsy", use an alternative word 
or phrase, and here is a preferred alternative, but that the caller use 
judgement for the ultimate choice. This communication would be during 
this awkward transitional period. There would, of course, be some 
dancers who may complain, but this would also be an opportunity for the 
organizers to convey to those dancers the ethics that they followed and 
that it's just a transitional period.


My two cents.

Woody Lane


On 3/28/2018 4:04 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers wrote:
Thanks for the suggestion.  The rule was sent to me days befor the gig 
and it took my mind a good long while to process and work through it. 
 The organizer knows my concerns.


Sent from my iPad

On Mar 28, 2018, at 6:34 PM, Yoyo Zhou > wrote:


On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers 
> wrote:


Here was my issue, briefly :  I was told to use "walk around"
when calling at glen echo.  It also happens that I'm a western
square caller and have used "walk around your corner, see saw
your taw" for decades.


Here is an opportunity to say to the organizers, "I understand your 
intent is to avoid certain language, but your proposed substitute 
doesn't work for me because I use 'walk around' to mean something 
else. I would prefer to use [such and such] or another alternative to 
avoid confusion. Does that work for your community?" This is a 
conversation between you and the organizers, which will ideally 
result in clearer communication at the dance itself. But if they 
don't want to budge, then you've hopefully communicated that their 
rigidness is hindering you from presenting a good program. After all, 
we're here to serve the dancers.


Thanks,
Yoyo Zhou
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Re: [Callers] freedom

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

I'm certainly well aware of issues that confront those people you listed and 
others.  

I'm hoping you'll share your homework with us off line as you suggested.

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 29, 2018, at 6:36 PM, Ron Blechner  wrote:
> 
> Thanks. 
> 
> I'm really not the person ultimately who should be listened to. Marginalized 
> dancers are the people we all should be listening to. Folks who are LGBTQ, 
> people of color, people with disabilities, Romany, etc. I've done my 
> homework, and I've made my choices about what to support. 
> 
> Ron
> 
>> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018, 5:14 PM Tom Hinds  wrote:
>> Ron I apologize for saying that.  It was not necessary.
>> 
>> If you'll still speak to me i want you to know that Donna has said exactly 
>> what I was thinking.  So I would be interested in seeing what you have to 
>> say.
>> 
>> Tom
>> 
>> Sent from my iPad
>> 
>>> On Mar 29, 2018, at 3:01 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Really don't appreciate name calling on this list.
>>> 
 On Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 7:22 PM Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers 
  wrote:
 Thanks Dave! 
 I too have that reaction whenever a caller brings up controversy about 
 terminology. 
 
 On the flip side, when an older caller tries to adapt pronouns and such 
 without making a big deal of it, it’s awesome, even when they make 
 mistakes. 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
 On Mar 28, 2018, at 5:29 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers 
  wrote:
 
> Here was my issue, briefly :  I was told to use "walk around" when 
> calling at glen echo.  It also happens that I'm a western square caller 
> and have used "walk around your corner, see saw your taw" for decades.
> 
> It has happened on two occasions when I have mixed up square dance calls 
> from one time period into another or from one tradition to another and 
> have confused the dancers a tad and made them think perhaps I'm an idiot. 
>  
> 
> As far as gypsy is concerned I'd use ANY call as a substitute but not 
> walk around out of fear of saying the wrong thing by habit.  Perhaps it's 
> remote that it would happen but I'm going to avoid looking liking an 
> idiot at all costs!
> 
> Being given that rule by the organizer made my planning for that dance a 
> nightmare.  Do I use dances without gypsies?  I mean it really through a 
> wrench into the way I usually plan because to follow their rule and 
> protect myself I'd have to eliminate far too many good dances to keep 
> from using gypsy.
>  
> And there are more rules that I have to follow or address that I'd rather 
> not, like leaving a couple out at the top when the music ends.
> 
> As far as being sarcastic NO I'm not that kind of person.  I simply 
> thought Ron was being a bully so I wanted to know where he stood.  There 
> are a number of us out there that associate PC with a threat to our 
> freedoms and I'm not a conservative.  Sure I can look up things on the 
> computer and you think I'm being sarcastic because I didn't, but we're 
> different.  I hate computers and only use them when I have to.   I value 
> clear communication and if you carefully read my email you'll see that's 
> what I was asking for.  On several of Ron's emails I see there are a good 
> number of dots that weren't being connected so I wondered what was going 
> on.
> 
> As far as my attitude at Glen Echo is concerned you are reading into it.  
> If you want to continue this perhaps just between us is the best way.  
> And here we go, Tom is confused again.  Why are you replying for Ron?
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
>>> >
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Re: [Callers] freedom

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

Thanks.

I'm really not the person ultimately who should be listened to.
Marginalized dancers are the people we all should be listening to. Folks
who are LGBTQ, people of color, people with disabilities, Romany, etc. I've
done my homework, and I've made my choices about what to support.

Ron

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018, 5:14 PM Tom Hinds  wrote:

> Ron I apologize for saying that.  It was not necessary.
>
> If you'll still speak to me i want you to know that Donna has said exactly
> what I was thinking.  So I would be interested in seeing what you have to
> say.
>
> Tom
>
> Sent from my iPad
>
> On Mar 29, 2018, at 3:01 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Really don't appreciate name calling on this list.
>
> On Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 7:22 PM Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
>> Thanks Dave!
>> I too have that reaction whenever a caller brings up controversy about
>> terminology.
>>
>> On the flip side, when an older caller tries to adapt pronouns and such
>> without making a big deal of it, it’s awesome, even when they make
>> mistakes.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 5:29 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers <
>> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> Here was my issue, briefly :  I was told to use "walk around" when
>> calling at glen echo.  It also happens that I'm a western square caller and
>> have used "walk around your corner, see saw your taw" for decades.
>>
>> It has happened on two occasions when I have mixed up square dance calls
>> from one time period into another or from one tradition to another and have
>> confused the dancers a tad and made them think perhaps I'm an idiot.
>>
>> As far as gypsy is concerned I'd use ANY call as a substitute but not
>> walk around out of fear of saying the wrong thing by habit.  Perhaps it's
>> remote that it would happen but I'm going to avoid looking liking an idiot
>> at all costs!
>>
>> Being given that rule by the organizer made my planning for that dance a
>> nightmare.  Do I use dances without gypsies?  I mean it really through a
>> wrench into the way I usually plan because to follow their rule and protect
>> myself I'd have to eliminate far too many good dances to keep from using
>> gypsy.
>>
>> And there are more rules that I have to follow or address that I'd rather
>> not, like leaving a couple out at the top when the music ends.
>>
>> As far as being sarcastic NO I'm not that kind of person.  I simply
>> thought Ron was being a bully so I wanted to know where he stood.  There
>> are a number of us out there that associate PC with a threat to our
>> freedoms and I'm not a conservative.  Sure I can look up things on the
>> computer and you think I'm being sarcastic because I didn't, but we're
>> different.  I hate computers and only use them when I have to.   I value
>> clear communication and if you carefully read my email you'll see that's
>> what I was asking for.  On several of Ron's emails I see there are a good
>> number of dots that weren't being connected so I wondered what was going on.
>>
>> As far as my attitude at Glen Echo is concerned you are reading into it.
>> If you want to continue this perhaps just between us is the best way.  And
>> here we go, Tom is confused again.  Why are you replying for Ron?
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>> >
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Re: [Callers] freedom

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

Ron I apologize for saying that.  It was not necessary.

If you'll still speak to me i want you to know that Donna has said exactly what 
I was thinking.  So I would be interested in seeing what you have to say.

Tom

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 29, 2018, at 3:01 PM, Ron Blechner via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Really don't appreciate name calling on this list.
> 
>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 7:22 PM Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers 
>>  wrote:
>> Thanks Dave! 
>> I too have that reaction whenever a caller brings up controversy about 
>> terminology. 
>> 
>> On the flip side, when an older caller tries to adapt pronouns and such 
>> without making a big deal of it, it’s awesome, even when they make mistakes. 
>> 
>> Sent from my iPhone
>> 
>> On Mar 28, 2018, at 5:29 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> Here was my issue, briefly :  I was told to use "walk around" when calling 
>>> at glen echo.  It also happens that I'm a western square caller and have 
>>> used "walk around your corner, see saw your taw" for decades.
>>> 
>>> It has happened on two occasions when I have mixed up square dance calls 
>>> from one time period into another or from one tradition to another and have 
>>> confused the dancers a tad and made them think perhaps I'm an idiot.  
>>> 
>>> As far as gypsy is concerned I'd use ANY call as a substitute but not walk 
>>> around out of fear of saying the wrong thing by habit.  Perhaps it's remote 
>>> that it would happen but I'm going to avoid looking liking an idiot at all 
>>> costs!
>>> 
>>> Being given that rule by the organizer made my planning for that dance a 
>>> nightmare.  Do I use dances without gypsies?  I mean it really through a 
>>> wrench into the way I usually plan because to follow their rule and protect 
>>> myself I'd have to eliminate far too many good dances to keep from using 
>>> gypsy.
>>>  
>>> And there are more rules that I have to follow or address that I'd rather 
>>> not, like leaving a couple out at the top when the music ends.
>>> 
>>> As far as being sarcastic NO I'm not that kind of person.  I simply thought 
>>> Ron was being a bully so I wanted to know where he stood.  There are a 
>>> number of us out there that associate PC with a threat to our freedoms and 
>>> I'm not a conservative.  Sure I can look up things on the computer and you 
>>> think I'm being sarcastic because I didn't, but we're different.  I hate 
>>> computers and only use them when I have to.   I value clear communication 
>>> and if you carefully read my email you'll see that's what I was asking for. 
>>>  On several of Ron's emails I see there are a good number of dots that 
>>> weren't being connected so I wondered what was going on.
>>> 
>>> As far as my attitude at Glen Echo is concerned you are reading into it.  
>>> If you want to continue this perhaps just between us is the best way.  And 
>>> here we go, Tom is confused again.  Why are you replying for Ron?
>>> 
>>> Tom
>>> 
>>> 
> >
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Re: [Callers] freedom

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

Really don't appreciate name calling on this list.

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018, 7:22 PM Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Thanks Dave!
> I too have that reaction whenever a caller brings up controversy about
> terminology.
>
> On the flip side, when an older caller tries to adapt pronouns and such
> without making a big deal of it, it’s awesome, even when they make
> mistakes.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Mar 28, 2018, at 5:29 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers <
> callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>
> Here was my issue, briefly :  I was told to use "walk around" when calling
> at glen echo.  It also happens that I'm a western square caller and have
> used "walk around your corner, see saw your taw" for decades.
>
> It has happened on two occasions when I have mixed up square dance calls
> from one time period into another or from one tradition to another and have
> confused the dancers a tad and made them think perhaps I'm an idiot.
>
> As far as gypsy is concerned I'd use ANY call as a substitute but not walk
> around out of fear of saying the wrong thing by habit.  Perhaps it's remote
> that it would happen but I'm going to avoid looking liking an idiot at all
> costs!
>
> Being given that rule by the organizer made my planning for that dance a
> nightmare.  Do I use dances without gypsies?  I mean it really through a
> wrench into the way I usually plan because to follow their rule and protect
> myself I'd have to eliminate far too many good dances to keep from using
> gypsy.
>
> And there are more rules that I have to follow or address that I'd rather
> not, like leaving a couple out at the top when the music ends.
>
> As far as being sarcastic NO I'm not that kind of person.  I simply
> thought Ron was being a bully so I wanted to know where he stood.  There
> are a number of us out there that associate PC with a threat to our
> freedoms and I'm not a conservative.  Sure I can look up things on the
> computer and you think I'm being sarcastic because I didn't, but we're
> different.  I hate computers and only use them when I have to.   I value
> clear communication and if you carefully read my email you'll see that's
> what I was asking for.  On several of Ron's emails I see there are a good
> number of dots that weren't being connected so I wondered what was going on.
>
> As far as my attitude at Glen Echo is concerned you are reading into it.
> If you want to continue this perhaps just between us is the best way.  And
> here we go, Tom is confused again.  Why are you replying for Ron?
>
> Tom
>
>
> >
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Re: [Callers] freedom

[Alexandra Deis-Lauby via Callers]

Thanks Dave! 
I too have that reaction whenever a caller brings up controversy about 
terminology. 

On the flip side, when an older caller tries to adapt pronouns and such without 
making a big deal of it, it’s awesome, even when they make mistakes. 

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 28, 2018, at 5:29 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers 
>  wrote:
> 
> Here was my issue, briefly :  I was told to use "walk around" when calling at 
> glen echo.  It also happens that I'm a western square caller and have used 
> "walk around your corner, see saw your taw" for decades.
> 
> It has happened on two occasions when I have mixed up square dance calls from 
> one time period into another or from one tradition to another and have 
> confused the dancers a tad and made them think perhaps I'm an idiot.  
> 
> As far as gypsy is concerned I'd use ANY call as a substitute but not walk 
> around out of fear of saying the wrong thing by habit.  Perhaps it's remote 
> that it would happen but I'm going to avoid looking liking an idiot at all 
> costs!
> 
> Being given that rule by the organizer made my planning for that dance a 
> nightmare.  Do I use dances without gypsies?  I mean it really through a 
> wrench into the way I usually plan because to follow their rule and protect 
> myself I'd have to eliminate far too many good dances to keep from using 
> gypsy.
>  
> And there are more rules that I have to follow or address that I'd rather 
> not, like leaving a couple out at the top when the music ends.
> 
> As far as being sarcastic NO I'm not that kind of person.  I simply thought 
> Ron was being a bully so I wanted to know where he stood.  There are a number 
> of us out there that associate PC with a threat to our freedoms and I'm not a 
> conservative.  Sure I can look up things on the computer and you think I'm 
> being sarcastic because I didn't, but we're different.  I hate computers and 
> only use them when I have to.   I value clear communication and if you 
> carefully read my email you'll see that's what I was asking for.  On several 
> of Ron's emails I see there are a good number of dots that weren't being 
> connected so I wondered what was going on.
> 
> As far as my attitude at Glen Echo is concerned you are reading into it.  If 
> you want to continue this perhaps just between us is the best way.  And here 
> we go, Tom is confused again.  Why are you replying for Ron?
> 
> Tom
> 
> 
>>> >
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Re: [Callers] freedom

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

Thanks for the suggestion.  The rule was sent to me days befor the gig and it 
took my mind a good long while to process and work through it.  The organizer 
knows my concerns.

Sent from my iPad

> On Mar 28, 2018, at 6:34 PM, Yoyo Zhou  wrote:
> 
>> On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers 
>>  wrote:
>> Here was my issue, briefly :  I was told to use "walk around" when calling 
>> at glen echo.  It also happens that I'm a western square caller and have 
>> used "walk around your corner, see saw your taw" for decades.
> 
> Here is an opportunity to say to the organizers, "I understand your intent is 
> to avoid certain language, but your proposed substitute doesn't work for me 
> because I use 'walk around' to mean something else. I would prefer to use 
> [such and such] or another alternative to avoid confusion. Does that work for 
> your community?" This is a conversation between you and the organizers, which 
> will ideally result in clearer communication at the dance itself. But if they 
> don't want to budge, then you've hopefully communicated that their rigidness 
> is hindering you from presenting a good program. After all, we're here to 
> serve the dancers.
> 
> Thanks,
> Yoyo Zhou
> 
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Re: [Callers] freedom

[Yoyo Zhou via Callers]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 2:29 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> Here was my issue, briefly :  I was told to use "walk around" when calling
> at glen echo.  It also happens that I'm a western square caller and have
> used "walk around your corner, see saw your taw" for decades.
>

Here is an opportunity to say to the organizers, "I understand your intent
is to avoid certain language, but your proposed substitute doesn't work for
me because I use 'walk around' to mean something else. I would prefer to
use [such and such] or another alternative to avoid confusion. Does that
work for your community?" This is a conversation between you and the
organizers, which will ideally result in clearer communication at the dance
itself. But if they don't want to budge, then you've hopefully communicated
that their rigidness is hindering you from presenting a good program. After
all, we're here to serve the dancers.

Thanks,
Yoyo Zhou
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[Callers] freedom

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

Here was my issue, briefly :  I was told to use "walk around" when calling at 
glen echo.  It also happens that I'm a western square caller and have used 
"walk around your corner, see saw your taw" for decades.

It has happened on two occasions when I have mixed up square dance calls from 
one time period into another or from one tradition to another and have confused 
the dancers a tad and made them think perhaps I'm an idiot.  

As far as gypsy is concerned I'd use ANY call as a substitute but not walk 
around out of fear of saying the wrong thing by habit.  Perhaps it's remote 
that it would happen but I'm going to avoid looking liking an idiot at all 
costs!

Being given that rule by the organizer made my planning for that dance a 
nightmare.  Do I use dances without gypsies?  I mean it really through a wrench 
into the way I usually plan because to follow their rule and protect myself I'd 
have to eliminate far too many good dances to keep from using gypsy.
 
And there are more rules that I have to follow or address that I'd rather not, 
like leaving a couple out at the top when the music ends.

As far as being sarcastic NO I'm not that kind of person.  I simply thought Ron 
was being a bully so I wanted to know where he stood.  There are a number of us 
out there that associate PC with a threat to our freedoms and I'm not a 
conservative.  Sure I can look up things on the computer and you think I'm 
being sarcastic because I didn't, but we're different.  I hate computers and 
only use them when I have to.   I value clear communication and if you 
carefully read my email you'll see that's what I was asking for.  On several of 
Ron's emails I see there are a good number of dots that weren't being connected 
so I wondered what was going on.

As far as my attitude at Glen Echo is concerned you are reading into it.  If 
you want to continue this perhaps just between us is the best way.  And here we 
go, Tom is confused again.  Why are you replying for Ron?

Tom


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