Re: [Callers] Gypsy perception

[John Meechan via Callers]

I am calling in the UK and have had positive feedback from Romany gypsies about 
using the term ‘gypsy’ and I will continue to do so until I get some advice to 
the contrary from a Romany gypsy in the UK.

John Meechan

Sent from Mail for Windows 10



From: Harris Lapiroff via Callers
Sent: 03 November 2015 19:22
To: Donald Perley
Cc: callers
Subject: Re: [Callers] Gypsy perception


To quote the Gypsy Council website you have shared: "In the UK today we are 
proud to be Gypsy's but in Europe many people regard the term Gypsy as a term 
of abuse and prefer to be called Roma or to be called by the name of  their 
individual group, such as Kalderash or Sinti."

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Donald Perley via Callers 
<callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
I'd say I'm putting it in the context of a bigger picture, in multiple
dimensions.

I would call diving right into which phrase should replace gypsy
before there is any agreement that it should be replaced
passive-aggressive.

Go ahead and discuss.. as someone else posted, a national group in
Britain uses the term in their web address
http://www.gypsy-association.co.uk/ so maybe you can pop in there and
ask whether they find others using the term in a non-derogatory way
offensive.

Personally, I look at the situation with African-Americans.  There
have been many iterations of a term being offensive and deemed
impolite.  A new term comes into use, but if the same people hold the
same ill feelings with the new term, it also becomes derogatory in a
few years.  Rinse and repeat; you haven't fixed anything.
If a term has its roots in disparagement, (say, "nigger" as a
demeaning variation on negro) then it is offensive from the start.  I
don't think that's the case with gypsy.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ron Blechner <contra...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Donald,
>
> I am reading your comments as an attempt solely at shutting up other people.
> Is this your intent? It also comes off pretty passive aggressive. That is
> *not* appreciated and *not* helpful.
>
> Disagree all you like, but if you don't want to participate in a discussion,
> please don't interfere with others who do.
>
> Respectfully,
> Ron Blechner
>
> On Nov 3, 2015 9:06 AM, "Donald Perley via Callers"
> <callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Aahz Maruch via Callers
>>
>> > I have to admit that technically your argument is correct WRT me, but
>> > that's because I haven't been contra dancing at all (except for Queer
>> > Contra Dance Camp).  Instead, I've been focusing my time/energy on
>> > learning to call MWSD, which leaves this as my only outlet for contra
>> > dancing.  ;-)
>>
>> Like I said, more into the crusade than the dance.
>>
>> While we're at it, more offensive terms that may need replacing:
>>
>> Chain - represents slavery
>> Cast(e) - discrimination affecting a billion Indians
>> Swing - derogatory term for swapping sexual partners.
>>
>> I notice that in quotes from the original complainant who spurred this
>> subject, he never claimed to be Roma himself, and it was a little
>> unclear whether he was more offended by just the term gypsy, or the
>> implication that same-gender gypsies would be flirting with each
>> other.
>> ___
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
___
Callers mailing list
Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net





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Re: [Callers] Gypsy perception

[Harris Lapiroff via Callers]

To quote the Gypsy Council website
 you have shared: "In the UK
today we are proud to be Gypsy's but in Europe many people regard the term
Gypsy as a term of abuse and prefer to be called Roma or to be called by
the name of  their individual group, such as Kalderash or Sinti."

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 2:16 PM, Donald Perley via Callers <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> I'd say I'm putting it in the context of a bigger picture, in multiple
> dimensions.
>
> I would call diving right into which phrase should replace gypsy
> before there is any agreement that it should be replaced
> passive-aggressive.
>
> Go ahead and discuss.. as someone else posted, a national group in
> Britain uses the term in their web address
> http://www.gypsy-association.co.uk/ so maybe you can pop in there and
> ask whether they find others using the term in a non-derogatory way
> offensive.
>
> Personally, I look at the situation with African-Americans.  There
> have been many iterations of a term being offensive and deemed
> impolite.  A new term comes into use, but if the same people hold the
> same ill feelings with the new term, it also becomes derogatory in a
> few years.  Rinse and repeat; you haven't fixed anything.
> If a term has its roots in disparagement, (say, "nigger" as a
> demeaning variation on negro) then it is offensive from the start.  I
> don't think that's the case with gypsy.
>
> On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ron Blechner  wrote:
> > Donald,
> >
> > I am reading your comments as an attempt solely at shutting up other
> people.
> > Is this your intent? It also comes off pretty passive aggressive. That is
> > *not* appreciated and *not* helpful.
> >
> > Disagree all you like, but if you don't want to participate in a
> discussion,
> > please don't interfere with others who do.
> >
> > Respectfully,
> > Ron Blechner
> >
> > On Nov 3, 2015 9:06 AM, "Donald Perley via Callers"
> >  wrote:
> >>
> >> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Aahz Maruch via Callers
> >>
> >> > I have to admit that technically your argument is correct WRT me, but
> >> > that's because I haven't been contra dancing at all (except for Queer
> >> > Contra Dance Camp).  Instead, I've been focusing my time/energy on
> >> > learning to call MWSD, which leaves this as my only outlet for contra
> >> > dancing.  ;-)
> >>
> >> Like I said, more into the crusade than the dance.
> >>
> >> While we're at it, more offensive terms that may need replacing:
> >>
> >> Chain - represents slavery
> >> Cast(e) - discrimination affecting a billion Indians
> >> Swing - derogatory term for swapping sexual partners.
> >>
> >> I notice that in quotes from the original complainant who spurred this
> >> subject, he never claimed to be Roma himself, and it was a little
> >> unclear whether he was more offended by just the term gypsy, or the
> >> implication that same-gender gypsies would be flirting with each
> >> other.
> >> ___
> >> Callers mailing list
> >> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> >> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] Gypsy perception

[Donald Perley via Callers]

I'd say I'm putting it in the context of a bigger picture, in multiple
dimensions.

I would call diving right into which phrase should replace gypsy
before there is any agreement that it should be replaced
passive-aggressive.

Go ahead and discuss.. as someone else posted, a national group in
Britain uses the term in their web address
http://www.gypsy-association.co.uk/ so maybe you can pop in there and
ask whether they find others using the term in a non-derogatory way
offensive.

Personally, I look at the situation with African-Americans.  There
have been many iterations of a term being offensive and deemed
impolite.  A new term comes into use, but if the same people hold the
same ill feelings with the new term, it also becomes derogatory in a
few years.  Rinse and repeat; you haven't fixed anything.
If a term has its roots in disparagement, (say, "nigger" as a
demeaning variation on negro) then it is offensive from the start.  I
don't think that's the case with gypsy.

On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 11:22 AM, Ron Blechner  wrote:
> Donald,
>
> I am reading your comments as an attempt solely at shutting up other people.
> Is this your intent? It also comes off pretty passive aggressive. That is
> *not* appreciated and *not* helpful.
>
> Disagree all you like, but if you don't want to participate in a discussion,
> please don't interfere with others who do.
>
> Respectfully,
> Ron Blechner
>
> On Nov 3, 2015 9:06 AM, "Donald Perley via Callers"
>  wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Aahz Maruch via Callers
>>
>> > I have to admit that technically your argument is correct WRT me, but
>> > that's because I haven't been contra dancing at all (except for Queer
>> > Contra Dance Camp).  Instead, I've been focusing my time/energy on
>> > learning to call MWSD, which leaves this as my only outlet for contra
>> > dancing.  ;-)
>>
>> Like I said, more into the crusade than the dance.
>>
>> While we're at it, more offensive terms that may need replacing:
>>
>> Chain - represents slavery
>> Cast(e) - discrimination affecting a billion Indians
>> Swing - derogatory term for swapping sexual partners.
>>
>> I notice that in quotes from the original complainant who spurred this
>> subject, he never claimed to be Roma himself, and it was a little
>> unclear whether he was more offended by just the term gypsy, or the
>> implication that same-gender gypsies would be flirting with each
>> other.
>> ___
>> Callers mailing list
>> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
>> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Re: [Callers] Gypsy perception

[Ron Blechner via Callers]

Donald,

I am reading your comments as an attempt solely at shutting up other
people. Is this your intent? It also comes off pretty passive aggressive.
That is *not* appreciated and *not* helpful.

Disagree all you like, but if you don't want to participate in a
discussion, please don't interfere with others who do.

Respectfully,
Ron Blechner
On Nov 3, 2015 9:06 AM, "Donald Perley via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Aahz Maruch via Callers
>
> > I have to admit that technically your argument is correct WRT me, but
> > that's because I haven't been contra dancing at all (except for Queer
> > Contra Dance Camp).  Instead, I've been focusing my time/energy on
> > learning to call MWSD, which leaves this as my only outlet for contra
> > dancing.  ;-)
>
> Like I said, more into the crusade than the dance.
>
> While we're at it, more offensive terms that may need replacing:
>
> Chain - represents slavery
> Cast(e) - discrimination affecting a billion Indians
> Swing - derogatory term for swapping sexual partners.
>
> I notice that in quotes from the original complainant who spurred this
> subject, he never claimed to be Roma himself, and it was a little
> unclear whether he was more offended by just the term gypsy, or the
> implication that same-gender gypsies would be flirting with each
> other.
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] Gypsy perception

[Donald Perley via Callers]

On Mon, Nov 2, 2015 at 10:42 AM, Aahz Maruch via Callers

> I have to admit that technically your argument is correct WRT me, but
> that's because I haven't been contra dancing at all (except for Queer
> Contra Dance Camp).  Instead, I've been focusing my time/energy on
> learning to call MWSD, which leaves this as my only outlet for contra
> dancing.  ;-)

Like I said, more into the crusade than the dance.

While we're at it, more offensive terms that may need replacing:

Chain - represents slavery
Cast(e) - discrimination affecting a billion Indians
Swing - derogatory term for swapping sexual partners.

I notice that in quotes from the original complainant who spurred this
subject, he never claimed to be Roma himself, and it was a little
unclear whether he was more offended by just the term gypsy, or the
implication that same-gender gypsies would be flirting with each
other.

Re: [Callers] Gypsy perception

[Yoyo Zhou via Callers]

Hi folks. I was so ready to be done with this discussion, but.

Regardless of your views on the matter at hand, the goal of this discussion
list is to be a place for respectful exchange of ideas. After all, we
welcome even the most naive questions from the most novice callers, because
we are here to support one another, not tear each other down. Do you
respect your fellow callers and email writers? You don't have to agree with
their views. All you need is good faith.

Unkind speculation on their motivations is - at best - irrelevant
meta-meta-discussion. (Not about "gypsy", not even about the discussion of
it, but about the people discussing it.) You are welcome to think these
thoughts, but they contribute nothing to our discussion; please don't air
them here.

Thanks,
Yoyo Zhou
On Nov 2, 2015 05:08, "Donald Perley via Callers" <
callers@lists.sharedweight.net> wrote:

> It often seems like people on contra email lists and facebook get more
> joy from seeking problems to fix it through political correctness than
> they do from dancing itself.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers
>  wrote:
> > No Aahz my logic is broken.  Our perceptions and experiences are
> different.
> >
> > You said,
> >
> >> The question isn't whether using "gypsy" generates negative stereotypes
> >> but whether using the word reminds people of existing negative
> stereotypes
> >> and whether the people referred to by the word have negative reactions
> to
> >> the use of the word.
> >
> >
> > Aahz, you can define the discussion in a narrow way but I prefer to keep
> it
> > more open.
> >
> > This may surprise you but I have a favorable view of the Romani.  In the
> > '80s I danced Flamenco and developed a deep respect for them.  More
> recently
> > I saw a documentary on their culture that centered around a performance
> of
> > them from various countries.  So my view of them has been positive!
> Until
> > this discussion.
> >
> > To be honest, the more I read from those who don't want to use the word
> > gypsy (in private from some), the less favorable these people are in my
> mind
> > which I don't want.  I realize that your intentions are good but with me
> > you've accomplished the opposite of what you want.  Perhaps you should
> > consider not using their name in the same sentences with derogatory
> terms.
> > Don't underestimate the power of association.
> >
> > Tom
> > ___
> > Callers mailing list
> > Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> > http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net
>

Re: [Callers] Gypsy perception

[Aahz Maruch via Callers]

On Mon, Nov 02, 2015, Donald Perley wrote:
>
> It often seems like people on contra email lists and facebook get more
> joy from seeking problems to fix it through political correctness than
> they do from dancing itself.

I'm sure it seems that way to *you*.  Then again, I'm sure you used the
same argument style thirty years ago when people started complaining
about "faggot".

Perhaps you might want to consider that some of us get joy out of
bringing more people into contra dancing, and part of the way we do that
is to make contra dancing more welcoming and inclusive.

Just to be clear: I am not -- yet -- arguing that we *should* change
"gypsy", I'm simply poking holes in the arguments of people who ridicule
this discussion.

I have to admit that technically your argument is correct WRT me, but
that's because I haven't been contra dancing at all (except for Queer
Contra Dance Camp).  Instead, I've been focusing my time/energy on
learning to call MWSD, which leaves this as my only outlet for contra
dancing.  ;-)
-- 
Hugs and backrubs -- I break Rule 6http://rule6.info/
  <*>   <*>   <*>
Help a hearing-impaired person: http://rule6.info/hearing.html

Re: [Callers] Gypsy perception

[Donald Perley via Callers]

It often seems like people on contra email lists and facebook get more
joy from seeking problems to fix it through political correctness than
they do from dancing itself.



On Sun, Nov 1, 2015 at 8:16 PM, Tom Hinds via Callers
 wrote:
> No Aahz my logic is broken.  Our perceptions and experiences are different.
>
> You said,
>
>> The question isn't whether using "gypsy" generates negative stereotypes
>> but whether using the word reminds people of existing negative stereotypes
>> and whether the people referred to by the word have negative reactions to
>> the use of the word.
>
>
> Aahz, you can define the discussion in a narrow way but I prefer to keep it
> more open.
>
> This may surprise you but I have a favorable view of the Romani.  In the
> '80s I danced Flamenco and developed a deep respect for them.  More recently
> I saw a documentary on their culture that centered around a performance of
> them from various countries.  So my view of them has been positive!  Until
> this discussion.
>
> To be honest, the more I read from those who don't want to use the word
> gypsy (in private from some), the less favorable these people are in my mind
> which I don't want.  I realize that your intentions are good but with me
> you've accomplished the opposite of what you want.  Perhaps you should
> consider not using their name in the same sentences with derogatory terms.
> Don't underestimate the power of association.
>
> Tom
> ___
> Callers mailing list
> Callers@lists.sharedweight.net
> http://lists.sharedweight.net/listinfo.cgi/callers-sharedweight.net

Re: [Callers] Gypsy perception

[Tom Hinds via Callers]

No Aahz my logic is broken.  Our perceptions and experiences are  
different.


You said,

The question isn't whether using "gypsy" generates negative  
stereotypes but whether using the word reminds people of existing  
negative stereotypes and whether the people referred to by the word  
have negative reactions to the use of the word.


Aahz, you can define the discussion in a narrow way but I prefer to  
keep it more open.


This may surprise you but I have a favorable view of the Romani.  In  
the '80s I danced Flamenco and developed a deep respect for them.   
More recently I saw a documentary on their culture that centered  
around a performance of them from various countries.  So my view of  
them has been positive!  Until this discussion.


To be honest, the more I read from those who don't want to use the  
word gypsy (in private from some), the less favorable these people  
are in my mind which I don't want.  I realize that your intentions  
are good but with me you've accomplished the opposite of what you  
want.  Perhaps you should consider not using their name in the same  
sentences with derogatory terms.  Don't underestimate the power of  
association.


Tom