[Cameramakers] Re: bellows materials
In response to an email to Turner Bellows in Rochester, NY, I received the following from Joe Merry: In response to your e-mail. We have defined a new material for manufacturing photographic bellows. The material is used as the cover as well as the liner material. We purchase the material in 42 wide rolls by 500 yards. We would be willing to sell you as much material as you would like at $20.00 per yard. My understanding was that a member of this list was going to try this material several months ago. ...anyone know? Myron ___ Cameramakers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://rmp.opusis.com/mailman/listinfo/cameramakers
RE: [Cameramakers] Re: Bellows replacement material
There is a material called Elastoseal from Snow Roof Systems which has been discussed on the alt-photo list some time ago.this stuff has been reported to be, essentially, THE product for creating or repairing bellows. It is jet black, highly flexible over a wide temperature variance, and can be thinned. I believe Bostick and Sullivan sells smaller amounts of it (other than the gallon size, etc) but for immediate information, below is the web site. http://www.kstcoatings.com/snowroof/es.html Good Luck Bob M. Staten Island, New York -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Michael Hendrickson Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 2:49 PM To: Camermakers Subject: [Cameramakers] Re: Bellows replacement material Hi, From Wayde, the only thing like this that I've tinkered with is Plasti-dip. I've tried this stuff as an adhesive on a bellows that I built and it worked pretty well, with some provisos. First, it's too thick. I thinned it with turpentine but then it smelled like turpentine forevermore. The smell never did go away, even though it got faint it's still there. There's another brand of the same kind of stuff but a different formulation, I'm not sure I recall the name -- something like Plasti-Shield? Comes in the same type of container (looks like a tennis ball container tube), same size, but different product from a different company that does the same thing. Maybe you could thin it with Naphtha. But in any event it's flexible, if a bit springy. Maybe I didn't thin it enough. Beware also though that both are real toxic; use outdoors. The fumes'll get ya. If anybody can come up with a source for good, thin, rubberized fabric PLEASE let me know! The blackout cloth is good but too thick for some applications. I love the stuff that cheap Chinese changing bags are made of, they're perfect for bellows, but they're not big enough for a large bellows and I'm sure much more expensive to buy that way; I'd rather buy the fabric by the yard. But where to get it??? --Michael Hendrickson [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Cameramakers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://rmp.opusis.com/mailman/listinfo/cameramakers ___ Cameramakers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://rmp.opusis.com/mailman/listinfo/cameramakers
Re: [Cameramakers] Re: Bellows making (Urethane!)
Robert Mueller wrote: I do not know whether I have access to anything similar to the "PL" Roof and Flashing Sealant but I doubt if I would use it even if I could buy it unless I received a pretty secure guarantee of a long lifetime. Urethane foam is one of the worst materials which have ever been introduced into cameras. This is the stuff which changes into mud after cameras exceed a certain age. Removing and replacing this junk is a terrible task and I am sure many otherwise fine cameras have landed in the scrap heap on account of the costs it causes to have a repairman spend much time cleaning up the camera before replacing the foam. A fantastic initial bond followed by self destruction after a decade or so is no solution in a case where only a moderate strength bond is needed, though for at least my remaining life on earth (estimated at 20 to 30 years!) Perhaps the problem has been solved in modern urethane, but I have never heard anybody admit there has ever been a problem so I don't expect any assurance it will never happen again. Until you have that assurance, consider the sinking feeling when you find your work reduced to a paste impregnated bag by decay of the cement. Bob Dr. Robert Mueller Institut fr Festkrperforschung, FZ-Juelich D-52425 Juelich, Germany phone: + 49 2461 61 4550 FAX: + 49 2461 61 2610 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ The urethane sealant is not a foam but a solid rubber. Makes an adhesive seal as opposed to the occlusive non-adhesive seal of silicone. Same stuff is used in industry to seal expansion joints in concrete walls and to seal cracks in pavement so I would guess people have faith in its durability. Seems like it ought to be good for sealing cameras. Erben ___ Cameramakers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://rmp.opusis.com/mailman/listinfo/cameramakers
Re: [Cameramakers] Re: Bellows making (Urethane!)
The urethane sealant is not a foam but a solid rubber. Makes an adhesive seal as opposed to the occlusive non-adhesive seal of silicone. Same stuff is used in industry to seal expansion joints in concrete walls and to seal cracks in pavement so I would guess people have faith in its durability. Seems like it ought to be good for sealing cameras. I've used it to seal pinholes in an enlarger bellows with good results. Don Feinberg [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Cameramakers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://rmp.opusis.com/mailman/listinfo/cameramakers
[Cameramakers] Re: Bellows making (Urethane!)
I do not know whether I have access to anything similar to the "PL" Roof and Flashing Sealant but I doubt if I would use it even if I could buy it unless I received a pretty secure guarantee of a long lifetime. Urethane foam is one of the worst materials which have ever been introduced into cameras. This is the stuff which changes into mud after cameras exceed a certain age. Removing and replacing this junk is a terrible task and I am sure many otherwise fine cameras have landed in the scrap heap on account of the costs it causes to have a repairman spend much time cleaning up the camera before replacing the foam. A fantastic initial bond followed by self destruction after a decade or so is no solution in a case where only a moderate strength bond is needed, though for at least my remaining life on earth (estimated at 20 to 30 years!) Perhaps the problem has been solved in modern urethane, but I have never heard anybody admit there has ever been a problem so I don't expect any assurance it will never happen again. Until you have that assurance, consider the sinking feeling when you find your work reduced to a paste impregnated bag by decay of the cement. Bob Dr. Robert Mueller Institut fr Festkrperforschung, FZ-Juelich D-52425 Juelich, Germany phone: + 49 2461 61 4550 FAX: + 49 2461 61 2610 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Cameramakers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://rmp.opusis.com/mailman/listinfo/cameramakers
[Cameramakers] Re: bellows
I am no expert at this but have tried a couple experiments which were not too bad. Things with which you might want to experiment: 1) IBM punch cards are a nice material for stiffers, if you can find a source. There are similar materials around if all the local supplies of punch cards have dried up. 2) I made one bellows with magnetic cards as stiffeners. These are coated with a magnetic material which is optically dense and the base material is rugged Mylar(TM). These will be harder to find than punch cards but were used in the late 1969s for storing data on small computers. The size is similar to that of a punch card. 3) Contact cement is an appealing glue but I consider handling it horrible if a large area thin coat is wanted. Most methods will produce lots of "strings". You can thin the cement to reduce this problem but there are spray can versions of this adhesive. Much of the trouble never occurs. However, consider well how you will align any layers of material put together with this stuff; any mistake could mean a great loss of quality or a total loss of the bellows. Once the two layers are in contact it is very difficult to separate them without destroying something. 4) Silicone as used to seal leaks in your bathroom and elsewhere in the house is an interesting and versatile adhesive. It does not stick as strongly as many other adhesives, but a bellows should not be a highly loaded item. I have made fabric light-tight with it by using black silicone as supplied, or what I like better because I have more control, you can add lampblack to it. Try your local print shop for a sample of black printers ink. This is lampblack in an oil base. The oil should harden in air, eventually!A few percent of this in the silicone renders it pretty opaque already in fairly thin layers. However, silicone is really far too viscous as supplied. You can thin it with suitable solvents. I use something similar to mineral spirits or white spirit or "spezial Benzin", as it is known here. Try what you have on a sample before undertaking the real job. Quite a lot of the solvent is needed. I have never had the nerve to attempt spraying but do clean a spray gun immediately after use if you try it. Once cured about the only way to remove the stuff is mechanically. Brushing or rolling this into the stretched fabric will make it opaque yet the end product is quite flexible. The best fabric will be one which is already as optically dense as possible (see all those other contributions!) Work in a well ventilated area; all that solvent must evaporate. It is well to mention why the bother makes any sense. Silicone is pretty stable against deterioration; much better than normal rubber. Time might show a bellows produced with this has a very long lifetime (I admit I am guessing!) I have fabric for dark room shades but I expect it to become brittle with time and have seem items which suffered exactly that fate. These were shades which you could rip up as if they were made of tissue paper and a bellows which was in terrible condition. Auto tires do not have infinite lifetime also when the car is not driven (sunlight makes the situation worse for tires but is less of a threat for a bellows!); the rubber becomes hard and porous. Silicone is likely to resist these processes. Furthermore, the silicone itself is almost the bellows material, with the fabric serving as reinforcement and stiffener. It also defines the thickness. Silicone cures somewhat slowly, though it quickly builds a skin on the surface. The slow cure gives more working time than would contact cement. Oh, yes. Please do not make up a siliconized cloth and then use it long afterwards to make a bellows. Not much securely sticks to this stuff after it is well-cured. Try to laminate the bellows soon after coating the cloth, or better, impregnate the cloth after the bellows layers are bonded. More than a day long wait is asking for trouble. Bob Dr. Robert Mueller Institut fr Festkrperforschung, FZ-Juelich D-52425 Juelich, Germany phone: + 49 2461 61 4550 FAX: + 49 2461 61 2610 email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Cameramakers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://rmp.opusis.com/mailman/listinfo/cameramakers
[Cameramakers] Re: bellows
I have never attempted bellows-making, but those of you who are experimenting might want to try: 1) Playing cards for stiffener material. "Pasteboard" cards take a lot of abuse and hold up well. 2) "PL" Roof and Flashing Sealant instead of silicone. This stuff is available at Home Depot on the shelf next to silicone sealants. Comes in a yellow caulking tube and is a black urethane rubber that is extremely adhesive, will permanently bond to most materials much better than silicone does, and is much stronger and tougher when cured. Be sure to wear throwaway vinyl or rubber gloves when using this stuff and have alcohol and paper shop-towels handy when you get ready to work with it. Great stuff-- a quantum leap ahead of silicone in many respects! regards, Erben Cook ___ Cameramakers mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://rmp.opusis.com/mailman/listinfo/cameramakers
