Re: [ccp4bb] New phasing approach

2020-04-02 Thread Bernhard Rupp 
Hi Fellows,

the idea for this work came from my initial excitement about the FEL, because a 
coherent source of photons
would I principle allow a reflection-wise interference experiment. The reasons 
Ed gave, make this kind
of experiment impractical. The key difference is, that the proposed experiment 
is a single photon experiment, 
and absent some of the instrumental challenges Gerd alluded to, the remaining 
problem is the probe photon
interaction in the delayed-probe experiment (tactfully omitted in fig 1).

I am sure I will have an update in a year from now.

Cheers, BR

-Original Message-
From: CCP4 bulletin board  On Behalf Of Rosenbaum, Gerold
Sent: Wednesday, April 1, 2020 19:31
To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
Subject: Re: [ccp4bb] New phasing approach

The x-ray interferometer is not a joke. In about 1974, Gerd Materlik built one 
for his thesis and inserted it in front of my beamline at the DESY synchrotron. 
The beam splitters and "mirrors" were all carved out of a single block of 
perfect single crystal silicon. He inserted a wedge of plastic in one arm 
acting as a phase shifter and produced dark and white bands in a film. I was 
really, really impressed.

As for the three-beam experiments by Edgar Weckert and K. Hümmer, carried on by 
Bob Sweet, as impressive it is to get precise phase measurements for a 
reflection, there is a practical downsided: the radiation dose for measuring 
one reflection to a few % is as high as the dose for a whole data set from 
which we conventionally extract the phases of all reflection though only at 
about 30% but still good enough to solve the structure.

I have the inkling that Bernhard's phase retrieval would suffer the same death: 
only the ultra-parallel fraction of the x-ray beam passes through the 
interferometer cutting down tremendously the intensity of reflections from 
macromolecular crystals which tend to be far from parallel.

Gerd

On 01.04.2020, 16:02, "CCP4 bulletin board on behalf of Tim Gruene" 
 wrote:

Dear Bernhard,

your paper is actually not so much of a joke. Are you aware of K. Huemmer's 
and E. Weckert's three-beam experiments? See e.g. 

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4615-5879-8_24

Best regards,
Tim

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 4:00:19 AM CEST Bernhard Rupp wrote:
> Hi Fellows,
> 
> 
> 
> just in time for a little reading during quarantine-induced boredom here
> preprint pages
> 
> (embargoed until 04.01) from my recent Phys. Rev. paper with a different
> take on phasing
> 
> https://tinyurl.com/Phys-Rev-2020
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy, BR
> 
> --
> 
> Bernhard Rupp
> 
>  <http://www.hofkristallamt.org/> http://www.hofkristallamt.org/
> 
>  <mailto:b...@hofkristallamt.org> b...@hofkristallamt.org
> 
> +1 925 209 7429
> 
> --
> 
> Department of Genetic Epidemiology
> 
> Medical University Innsbruck
> 
> Schöpfstr. 41
> 
> A 6020 Innsbruck
> 
>  <mailto:bernhard.r...@i-med.ac.at> bernhard.r...@i-med.ac.at
> 
> +43 676 571 0536
> 
> --
> 
> Many plausible ideas vanish
> 
> at the presence of thought
> 
> --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1

-- 
--
Tim Gruene
Head of the Centre for X-ray Structure Analysis
Faculty of Chemistry
University of Vienna

Phone: +43-1-4277-70202

GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A



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Re: [ccp4bb] New phasing approach

2020-04-01 Thread Rosenbaum, Gerold 
The x-ray interferometer is not a joke. In about 1974, Gerd Materlik built one 
for his thesis and inserted it in front of my beamline at the DESY synchrotron. 
The beam splitters and "mirrors" were all carved out of a single block of 
perfect single crystal silicon. He inserted a wedge of plastic in one arm 
acting as a phase shifter and produced dark and white bands in a film. I was 
really, really impressed.

As for the three-beam experiments by Edgar Weckert and K. Hümmer, carried on by 
Bob Sweet, as impressive it is to get precise phase measurements for a 
reflection, there is a practical downsided: the radiation dose for measuring 
one reflection to a few % is as high as the dose for a whole data set from 
which we conventionally extract the phases of all reflection though only at 
about 30% but still good enough to solve the structure.

I have the inkling that Bernhard's phase retrieval would suffer the same death: 
only the ultra-parallel fraction of the x-ray beam passes through the 
interferometer cutting down tremendously the intensity of reflections from 
macromolecular crystals which tend to be far from parallel.

Gerd

On 01.04.2020, 16:02, "CCP4 bulletin board on behalf of Tim Gruene" 
 wrote:

Dear Bernhard,

your paper is actually not so much of a joke. Are you aware of K. Huemmer's 
and E. Weckert's three-beam experiments? See e.g. 

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4615-5879-8_24

Best regards,
Tim

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 4:00:19 AM CEST Bernhard Rupp wrote:
> Hi Fellows,
> 
> 
> 
> just in time for a little reading during quarantine-induced boredom here
> preprint pages
> 
> (embargoed until 04.01) from my recent Phys. Rev. paper with a different
> take on phasing
> 
> https://tinyurl.com/Phys-Rev-2020
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy, BR
> 
> --
> 
> Bernhard Rupp
> 
>   http://www.hofkristallamt.org/
> 
>   b...@hofkristallamt.org
> 
> +1 925 209 7429
> 
> --
> 
> Department of Genetic Epidemiology
> 
> Medical University Innsbruck
> 
> Schöpfstr. 41
> 
> A 6020 Innsbruck
> 
>   bernhard.r...@i-med.ac.at
> 
> +43 676 571 0536
> 
> --
> 
> Many plausible ideas vanish
> 
> at the presence of thought
> 
> --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1

-- 
--
Tim Gruene
Head of the Centre for X-ray Structure Analysis
Faculty of Chemistry
University of Vienna

Phone: +43-1-4277-70202

GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A



To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1





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Re: [ccp4bb] New phasing approach

2020-04-01 Thread Tim Gruene 
Dear Bernhard,

your paper is actually not so much of a joke. Are you aware of K. Huemmer's 
and E. Weckert's three-beam experiments? See e.g. 

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10.1007/978-1-4615-5879-8_24

Best regards,
Tim

On Wednesday, April 1, 2020 4:00:19 AM CEST Bernhard Rupp wrote:
> Hi Fellows,
> 
> 
> 
> just in time for a little reading during quarantine-induced boredom here
> preprint pages
> 
> (embargoed until 04.01) from my recent Phys. Rev. paper with a different
> take on phasing
> 
> https://tinyurl.com/Phys-Rev-2020
> 
> 
> 
> Enjoy, BR
> 
> --
> 
> Bernhard Rupp
> 
>   http://www.hofkristallamt.org/
> 
>   b...@hofkristallamt.org
> 
> +1 925 209 7429
> 
> --
> 
> Department of Genetic Epidemiology
> 
> Medical University Innsbruck
> 
> Schöpfstr. 41
> 
> A 6020 Innsbruck
> 
>   bernhard.r...@i-med.ac.at
> 
> +43 676 571 0536
> 
> --
> 
> Many plausible ideas vanish
> 
> at the presence of thought
> 
> --
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1

-- 
--
Tim Gruene
Head of the Centre for X-ray Structure Analysis
Faculty of Chemistry
University of Vienna

Phone: +43-1-4277-70202

GPG Key ID = A46BEE1A



To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1


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Re: [ccp4bb] [EXTERNAL] Re: [ccp4bb] New phasing approach

2020-04-01 Thread Edward Berry 
Bear in mind that position of the interferometer mirror or whatever 
would have to be constant to within a fraction of an Angstrom- breathe 
on the frame and it will warm ever so slightly- the expansion will
change the 
phase of the reference beam by a few thousand wavelengths. A real 
engineering challenge!




>>> "Daniel M. Himmel, Ph. D."  04/01/20 11:17
AM >>>
That's fascinating!  Can such an interferometer actually be constructed
for an
X-ray beam line or is this still in the realm of the theoretical
possible?


Daniel
 ___
 Daniel M. Himmel, Ph. D.
 E-mail:  danielmhim...@gmail.com







On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 10:01 PM Bernhard Rupp
 wrote:

Hi Fellows,
 
just in time for a little reading during quarantine-induced boredom here
preprint pages 
(embargoed until 04.01) from my recent Phys. Rev. paper with a different
take on phasing
https://tinyurl.com/Phys-Rev-2020
 
Enjoy, BR
--
Bernhard Rupp
http://www.hofkristallamt.org/
b...@hofkristallamt.org
+1 925 209 7429
--
Department of Genetic Epidemiology
Medical University Innsbruck
Schöpfstr. 41
A 6020 Innsbruck
bernhard.r...@i-med.ac.at
+43 676 571 0536
--
Many plausible ideas vanish 
at the presence of thought
--
 


 
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Re: [ccp4bb] New phasing approach

2020-04-01 Thread Daniel M. Himmel, Ph. D. 
That's fascinating!  Can such an interferometer actually be constructed for
an
X-ray beam line or is this still in the realm of the theoretical possible?

Daniel

___

Daniel M. Himmel, Ph. D.

E-mail:  danielmhim...@gmail.com


On Tue, Mar 31, 2020 at 10:01 PM Bernhard Rupp 
wrote:

> Hi Fellows,
>
>
>
> just in time for a little reading during quarantine-induced boredom here
> preprint pages
>
> (embargoed until 04.01) from my recent Phys. Rev. paper with a different
> take on phasing
>
> https://tinyurl.com/Phys-Rev-2020
>
>
>
> Enjoy, BR
>
> --
>
> Bernhard Rupp
>
> http://www.hofkristallamt.org/
>
> b...@hofkristallamt.org
>
> +1 925 209 7429
>
> --
>
> Department of Genetic Epidemiology
>
> Medical University Innsbruck
>
> Schöpfstr. 41
>
> A 6020 Innsbruck
>
> *bernhard.r...@i-med.ac.at *
>
> +43 676 571 0536
>
> --
>
> Many plausible ideas vanish
>
> at the presence of thought
>
> --
>
>
>
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
> https://www.jiscmail.ac.uk/cgi-bin/webadmin?SUBED1=CCP4BB=1
>



To unsubscribe from the CCP4BB list, click the following link:
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[ccp4bb] New phasing approach

2020-03-31 Thread Bernhard Rupp 
Hi Fellows,

 

just in time for a little reading during quarantine-induced boredom here
preprint pages 

(embargoed until 04.01) from my recent Phys. Rev. paper with a different
take on phasing

https://tinyurl.com/Phys-Rev-2020

 

Enjoy, BR

--

Bernhard Rupp

  http://www.hofkristallamt.org/

  b...@hofkristallamt.org

+1 925 209 7429

--

Department of Genetic Epidemiology

Medical University Innsbruck

Schöpfstr. 41

A 6020 Innsbruck

  bernhard.r...@i-med.ac.at

+43 676 571 0536

--

Many plausible ideas vanish 

at the presence of thought

--

 




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