[ccp4bb] Parrot NCS averaging

2011-10-05 Thread Peter Canning
Dear CCP4'ers,

I am working on refining the structure of a protein complex consisting of two 
different chains. Data were collected to 2.3A in space group C2 and phased by 
molecular replacement without any problem, but the ASU contains 6 complexes (so 
12 chains in total). In the ASU, the 6 complexes form 3 dimers. Dimer 1 is 
related to dimer 2 by a rotation operation and to dimer 3 by translation - I 
hope that makes sense!

When I run Parrot to do density improvement and NCS averaging, Parrot works 
beautifully (final FOM is 0.87) but NCS averaging causes the average NCS 
correlation coefficient to drop (from 0.94 to 0.64) and the average mask volume 
to increase from 0.31 to 0.7 (minimum volume increases from 0.05 to 0.07 and 
maximum volume goes from 1.2 to 2), which seems a bit high.

Unless I have misunderstood something, I thought the NCS correlation 
coefficient should increase during averaging and the average mask volume should 
decrease. If this is the case, has anyone any idea what I'm doing wrong?

Also, at the risk of asking a dumb question, is there a particular way my 
Parrot modified file should be input into Refmac to get the best results? The 
FOM from my refmac runs never seems to be as good as that output by Parrot.

Thanks in advance, all advice gratefully received, etc etc...

Peter Canning
SGC




Re: [ccp4bb] Parrot NCS averaging

2011-10-05 Thread Savvas Savvides
Dear Herman
In some cases density modification starting with MR phases can indeed prove 
very powerful. 
We recently used Parrot to bootstrap a difficult case at 4.3 angs and were able 
to obtain very good maps for entire missing domains. 
See Supplementary Fig 1 in:Verstraete et al 2011 BLOOD 118:60-68
and more technical info and fig5 in:
Verstraete et al 2011 Acta F67:325-331. 

The Ncs mask radius card in parrot proved to be an important one to 
experiment with, and is probably more important to do so at medium-low 
resolution. We provide details of our observations/implementation on page 330 
of the actaF paper.
We also found that post-MR HL coefficients written out by Phaser were also key. 
So in subsequent runs, after having built and refined partial
models, we would do a phase calculation run in Phaser to obtain HL by 'fixing' 
the partial model via a template .sol file with 0 values for 
rotation/translation across the board. 

Best wishes
Savvas


On 05 Oct 2011, at 17:13, herman.schreu...@sanofi-aventis.com wrote:

 Dear CCP4'ers,
  
 I do have a similar case with 8 molecules in the asymmetric unit, related by 
 improper symmetry and the structure is solved by molecular replacement. I do 
 have 2 questions:
  
 1) Does it make sense to average to improve phases? The molecular replacement 
 phases perfectly obey the non-crystallographic symmetry?
 2) For refinement I do not need average maps since Buster and other 
 refinement programs are very capable to handle ncs. However, I am not a 
 computer and for manual rebuilding and display purposes it would be very good 
 to use averaged maps. Which program could I best use for this: Parrot, DM, 
 Solomon, other? None of them seem to be really made for molecular replacement 
 phases. 
  
 Also my many thanks for any help, advice etc.
 Herman Schreuder
 
 From: CCP4 bulletin board [mailto:CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK] On Behalf Of Peter 
 Canning
 Sent: Wednesday, October 05, 2011 4:42 PM
 To: CCP4BB@JISCMAIL.AC.UK
 Subject: [ccp4bb] Parrot NCS averaging
 
 Dear CCP4’ers,
 
  
 
 I am working on refining the structure of a protein complex consisting of two 
 different chains. Data were collected to 2.3A in space group C2 and phased by 
 molecular replacement without any problem, but the ASU contains 6 complexes 
 (so 12 chains in total). In the ASU, the 6 complexes form 3 dimers. Dimer 1 
 is related to dimer 2 by a rotation operation and to dimer 3 by translation – 
 I hope that makes sense!
 
  
 
 When I run Parrot to do density improvement and NCS averaging, Parrot works 
 beautifully (final FOM is 0.87) but NCS averaging causes the average NCS 
 correlation coefficient to drop (from 0.94 to 0.64) and the average mask 
 volume to increase from 0.31 to 0.7 (minimum volume increases from 0.05 to 
 0.07 and maximum volume goes from 1.2 to 2), which seems a bit high.
 
  
 
 Unless I have misunderstood something, I thought the NCS correlation 
 coefficient should increase during averaging and the average mask volume 
 should decrease. If this is the case, has anyone any idea what I’m doing 
 wrong?
 
  
 
 Also, at the risk of asking a dumb question, is there a particular way my 
 Parrot modified file should be input into Refmac to get the best results? The 
 FOM from my refmac runs never seems to be as good as that output by Parrot.
 
  
 
 Thanks in advance, all advice gratefully received, etc etc…
 
  
 
 Peter Canning
 
 SGC
 
  
 
  
 



Re: [ccp4bb] Parrot NCS averaging

2011-10-05 Thread Kevin Cowtan

On 10/05/2011 03:42 PM, Peter Canning wrote:

When I run Parrot to do density improvement and NCS averaging, Parrot
works beautifully (final FOM is 0.87) but NCS averaging causes the
average NCS correlation coefficient to drop (from 0.94 to 0.64) and the
average mask volume to increase from 0.31 to 0.7 (minimum volume
increases from 0.05 to 0.07 and maximum volume goes from 1.2 to 2),
which seems a bit high.


Not impossible if the NCS is along a special direction. I've rewritten 
the logfile stats in the latest version to give you a more meaningful 
and less confusing number.



Unless I have misunderstood something, I thought the NCS correlation
coefficient should increase during averaging and the average mask volume
should decrease. If this is the case, has anyone any idea what I’m doing
wrong?


That's true for experimental phasing. When you start from MR, your 
initial phases contain the NCS implicitly. The structure factor 
magnitudes in this case have something to say about the differences 
between the molecules. Again, I think the stats in the new version may 
be more informative.



Also, at the risk of asking a dumb question, is there a particular way
my Parrot modified file should be input into Refmac to get the best
results? The FOM from my refmac runs never seems to be as good as that
output by Parrot.


FOM from density modification is overestimated! From refmac less so!

K