[ccp4bb] llg is negative in phaser

2012-06-19 Thread LISA
Hi all,

does anyone solve their structure by molecular replacement  with phaser
with LLG  0?
Thanks

lisa


Re: [ccp4bb] llg is negative in phaser

2012-06-19 Thread Randy Read
Dear Lisa,

It is actually reasonably common that a clear solution (large TFZ) is found in 
Phaser with a negative LLG.  The negative LLG tells you that the model doesn't 
agree with the data as well as one would expect, given what you have told 
Phaser about the completeness of the model and its accuracy.  So, if the 
solution is correct, either the model is less complete than you said (e.g. 
there are more copies in the asymmetric unit than you expected) or the 
coordinates are less accurate than one would expect from your specification of 
model quality (which is given either as a sequence identity, from which an RMSD 
is estimated, or directly as an RMSD).

You'll want to sort out which of these explains the result.  One of the most 
common causes is unanticipated domain motion.  Look at the model you are using 
for molecular replacement and see whether there are domains that could move 
relative to each other.  If there are, the molecular replacement solution can 
only place one domain correctly at a time.  The easiest solution is to search 
for the individual domains as separate models (ensembles), which often 
succeeds.  If this doesn't work, then you can take advantage of the expectation 
that the domain movement will be relatively small and do a local orientation 
search.  The use of the ROTATE AROUND command to do this is explained briefly 
on our web page: 
http://www.phaser.cimr.cam.ac.uk/index.php/Molecular_Replacement#What_to_do_in_Difficult_Cases.
  This requires you to break the Phaser run into several separate jobs, 
brute-force rotation, translation search, packing, then rigid-body refinement.

Note that the latest versions of Phaser (available in the recent Phenix release 
and also in the imminent CCP4 release) will carry out a refinement of the 
estimated RMSD at the end of the automated search, so the negative LLG should 
become positive or, at worst, zero.

Best wishes,

Randy Read

On 19 Jun 2012, at 09:43, LISA wrote:

 Hi all,
 
 does anyone solve their structure by molecular replacement  with phaser with 
 LLG  0? 
 Thanks
 
 lisa

--
Randy J. Read
Department of Haematology, University of Cambridge
Cambridge Institute for Medical Research  Tel: + 44 1223 336500
Wellcome Trust/MRC Building   Fax: + 44 1223 336827
Hills RoadE-mail: rj...@cam.ac.uk
Cambridge CB2 0XY, U.K.   www-structmed.cimr.cam.ac.uk


Re: [ccp4bb] llg is negative in phaser

2012-06-19 Thread Ed Pozharski
On Tue, 2012-06-19 at 16:43 +0800, LISA wrote:
 Hi all,
 
 does anyone solve their structure by molecular replacement  with
 phaser with LLG  0? 
 Thanks
 
 lisa

AFAIU, this means that your estimate of the solvent content is too low.
If you increase that, eventually you should get positive LLG.  I've seen
negative LLGs appear for exactly this reason and eventually MR worked
even without adjustments.  What matters most to me are Z-scores. or
rather if you have an outstanding solution in translation search.

-- 
Hurry up before we all come back to our senses!
   Julian, King of Lemurs