Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Christian Corti]

On Thu, 12 Nov 2015, Tom Moss wrote:

I've never seen anything works on the sector level, but there are plenty of


There is DITU (Disk-Image Transfer Utility) for MS-DOS, and it's free 
including C source code. I use it e.g. to image the hard disk of a DOS PC 
into a file (either network or parallel ZIP drive).

ftp://ftp.oldskool.org/pub/misc/Hardware/IBM/PCjr%20magazines%20and%20resources/Software/Ditu/
I've modified the program a bit to support retries and TurboC.

Christian

Re: DECtape reliability?

[Johnny Billquist]

On 2015-11-13 01:16, Rich Alderson wrote:

From: Johnny Billquist
Sent: Thursday, November 12, 2015 3:44 PM


However, that is still dealing with DECtapes. I'm curious about the
ability to deal with LINCtapes, that don't use the same codes on the mark
track (or whatever it was called, my memory fails me at the moment).


Yes, "mark track".


Thanks. I must be getting old. :-)


The TD8E do not understand things at all, and everything have to be done
in software, which is why I'm saying that it will actually deal with the
LINCtape format if you want it to.


Right.  The TD8E only sees "single line passed" (= 3 bits of data + 1 bit
of mark) and "four lines passed" (= 12 bits of data + 1 mark code) and is
completely agnostic about the values.


Yes, except it is of course kludgier than that, since DECtape mark codes 
are always 6 bits. The PDP-8 scheme of putting in 12 bit words means 
they do not align up with the mark codes easily. So, even more bit 
fiddling and packing...
That's also why there are actually 129 12-bit words to a block, even 
though only 128 is used.

(128 12-bit words are not evenly divisible by 18.)


However, more "intelligent" controllers do all this processing of the
mark track to identify start and end of block/tape, and all other
processing, in the controller. Can you make them read out the contents
and do the processing if you have different control codes?


The state machine implemented in hardware for all the intelligent DECtape
controllers will not recognize the 4-bit LINCtape codes at all, since the
DECtape codes are 6 bits long.  You'll just get a MARK Error.


Thanks. That is what I sortof was suspecting.
Interesting that the LINCtape use 4-bit codes. That makes it even more 
incompatible with DECtape.


Johnny

--
Johnny Billquist  || "I'm on a bus
  ||  on a psychedelic trip
email: b...@softjar.se ||  Reading murder books
pdp is alive! ||  tryin' to stay hip" - B. Idol

Re: Fw: new message

[ben]

On 11/13/2015 7:13 AM, Dave Woyciesjes wrote:

On 11/12/2015 10:25 PM, Jay West wrote:

Apologies, not sure how that got through.

Maybe a listmember got address-book-malware. Will see if the headers
reveal
anything that is easy to spot.

J



No worries. I know enough not to click on suspicious stuff like that...


Windows new feature ... Auto Click
Sigh.

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Fred Cisin]

On Fri, 13 Nov 2015, Johnny Billquist wrote:

(Well, by straight through I mean that they were null-model cables.)

Re: Software for small-memory PDP-11s?

[j...@cimmeri.com]

On 11/13/2015 5:45 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:

Hey all --

Now that I have my PDP-11/05 running nicely,


What did you end up doing to arrive at 
that functionality?  Did I miss some emails?




I'm curious what others are
running on small systems like this -- until this point I've only played
with larger (i.e. at least 28KW memory) systems.  I have only 8KW of memory
(with no viable options for expansion)
Can't MOS memory be put on the Unibus in 
an expansion chassis?




and there's not much out there that
I've found.  There's paper-tape BASIC (which is always fun) and FOCAL, and
PTS-11 (http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm) which is pretty cool
if a bit cumbersome.  Any other suggestions?

I'm also curious if any version of RT-11 that supports the TU58 could be
made to run on this system -- I have two SLUs in the system so in theory I
can boot from an emulated TU58. However RT-11 4.0's SYSGEN manuals suggest
that 12KW is the minimum supported (and experimentation bears this out) and
I can't find much in the way of manuals for RT-11 V3B -- which I believe is
the earliest version with TU58 support.  (V3B seems to be different enough
from later versions that I'm not quite sure how the SYSGEN process works.)

Thanks as always,
Josh

Re: Z8000 Assembler anyone?

[Oliver Lehmann]

Hi,

it is a working Z8000 system with a ZEUS clone (SYSIII UNIX).
Somehow the assembler must be able to put the segment information
for the absolute adress of this array in the object. No idea how tho,
as $abs will only work on segment 1.
I have the original .o file from Zilog and there is the fixed adress
already in it. But no idea how they did it. The assembler can not be
called with a segment number to work on. The linker can, but the linker
is not involved in creating the .o file

the original object from the system:

#67 nm /usr/sys/conf/u.o
3e00f600 A _u
0100 s u_d
 s u_p


my object generated from my u.s:

#68 nm u.o
0100f600 A _u
0100 s u_d
 s u_p

Regards, Oliver


jwsmobile  wrote:

Putting things at an absolute address requires putting things into  
segments that are handle by the linker or loader (depending on what  
era you are working in).


the linker may place the output of your assembler into different  
segments.  They may be set up to be relocatable at run time (most  
OSs insist on this feature).


Once you are dealing with either a debugger or loader, or OS you  
have to find out how to get that segment assigned to the space you  
desire in the absolute addressing space.


Usually the assembler will have directives to direct things to I/O  
or such depending on the architecture.


I'd use this info to see if you have any luck figuring out what you  
need to do.


you didn't mention whether this is a cross assembly tool, or if you  
have a working Z8000 OS with the tool.


Others may infer that by knowing more about the things you refer to.  
 however working Z8000 systems running an OS are a bit rare these  
days.


thanks
Jim


On 11/13/2015 12:06 PM, Oliver Lehmann wrote:

Hi,

I found out so far, that %3e00 means, that the data is put on
segment 62 (0x3e). Regarding to the Z8000 ASM handbook, segmented
adresses are notated as <>offset, so in my case
<<62>>%F600 - but of course it does not work and the assembler
yields and error :(


Oliver Lehmann  wrote:


Hi,

is someone on the list able to write Z8000 PLZ/ASM code? I have an
the following source:

 u module
 $segmented
 $abs %3E00F600

   global

 _u array [%572 byte]

 end u

The problem is, that it is vital that _u has to be located absolute
on the virtual memory address 0x3E00F600. The problem is now, that
the while the object is compiled, _u is available on 0x0100f600 and
I have no clue why.

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Charles Anthony]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Jules Richardson <
jules.richardso...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Vintage PCs are just a pain - new enough to make significant use of hard
> disk technology, but old enough that getting the data off them isn't quite
> as trivial as it likely would be on a much newer machine. I do find them
> *just* interesting enough to make it worthwhile trying to create a snapshot
> of how they were used, though (compared to the Win95-and-newer age where
> it's all so incredibly dull)
>
>
Vintage PCs are ot my field of expertise, so just a random thought..

Could you put a 2nd disk drive in the machine, and copy the disk image to
it?

-- Charles

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Jules Richardson]

On 11/12/2015 05:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:

On 11/12/2015 01:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:


As per subject line, does anyone know of any util that will back up
an x86 PC running some variant of DOS (MS, Compaq etc.) via rs232 to
a remote system? (Linux preferable on the remote, but other options
exist)

I'm not finding anything via Google, but it seems like the sort of
thing that some of the folks here may have done for their systems in
the past.

I'm thinking something that will do a sector-by-sector transfer from
a given partition (maybe only in-use sectors, implying some minor
intelligence on the remote end to covert into a raw image, but "send
 everything" mentality is better than nothing) - extra points for
retrying bad sectors.



Any particular reason that RS232C has to be the linkup?


Just lowest common denominator and based on what I have sitting around here 
(e.g. I don't have any MCA Ethernet boards, or ISA ones that will work on 
an 8 bit XT-type bus, only 16 bit).



There are plenty
of external drives that can use the parallel port with regular software.
For example, hook up a ZIP drive.


Hmm, I *might* know where there's one of those available - I'm not sure 
about cartridges, though (or if it's actually in working condition). The 
backup operation would certainly be quicker, and I am a bit concerned 
whether some of the old ST506/412 drives that I have will remain running 
for the length of time needed to do a serial transfer.



Alternatively, you could boot DOS from floppy with INTERLINK/INTERSVR
installed and use another DOS/WIN machine to do your backup.


My assumption there was that Interlink needs a newer version of DOS, and 
that some of these systems that I have may be incompatible, but maybe it's 
worth me putting that to the test.



I'm certain that options abound.


Yes, I'm sure - just figured I'd ask here as it seems like the sort of nut 
that will already have been cracked :-)


Vintage PCs are just a pain - new enough to make significant use of hard 
disk technology, but old enough that getting the data off them isn't quite 
as trivial as it likely would be on a much newer machine. I do find them 
*just* interesting enough to make it worthwhile trying to create a snapshot 
of how they were used, though (compared to the Win95-and-newer age where 
it's all so incredibly dull)


cheers

Jules

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Josh Dersch]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 5:08 PM, Jules Richardson <
jules.richardso...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 11/12/2015 05:52 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote:
>
>> On 11/12/2015 01:54 PM, Jules Richardson wrote:
>>
>>
>>>
> Alternatively, you could boot DOS from floppy with INTERLINK/INTERSVR
>> installed and use another DOS/WIN machine to do your backup.
>>
>
> My assumption there was that Interlink needs a newer version of DOS, and
> that some of these systems that I have may be incompatible, but maybe it's
> worth me putting that to the test.


FWIW, DOS 6.xx will boot on anything 100% PC-compatible, 8088 on up, and it
shouldn't have a problem reading filesystems created by earlier DOS
versions.  Assuming you can write a bootable floppy and get INTERLNK onto
it, that would probably be the easiest option.

- Josh



>
>
> I'm certain that options abound.
>>
>
> Yes, I'm sure - just figured I'd ask here as it seems like the sort of nut
> that will already have been cracked :-)
>
> Vintage PCs are just a pain - new enough to make significant use of hard
> disk technology, but old enough that getting the data off them isn't quite
> as trivial as it likely would be on a much newer machine. I do find them
> *just* interesting enough to make it worthwhile trying to create a snapshot
> of how they were used, though (compared to the Win95-and-newer age where
> it's all so incredibly dull)
>
> cheers
>
> Jules
>
>

RE: Fw: new message

[Kevin Parker]

Here Here!

Good work Jay!!!


++
Kevin Parker

++

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jerome H.
Fine
Sent: Friday, 13 November 2015 2:29 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: Re: Fw: new message

 >Jay West wrote:

>Apologies, not sure how that got through.
>
>Maybe a listmember got address-book-malware. Will see if the headers 
>reveal anything that is easy to spot.
>
So few get through that the VERY rare exception is a credit to your
diligence and choice of a great filter.

And as many of us all too often forget to say:

THANK  YOU  FOR  A GREAT  SERVICE

Jerome Fine

Re: Software for small-memory PDP-11s?

[Josh Dersch]

On Fri, Nov 13, 2015 at 2:52 PM, j...@cimmeri.com  wrote:

>
>
> On 11/13/2015 5:45 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
>
>> Hey all --
>>
>> Now that I have my PDP-11/05 running nicely,
>>
>
> What did you end up doing to arrive at that functionality?  Did I miss
> some emails?


Total issues over the past year or so were:
- Power supply needed some work.
- CPU non-functional: traced down to a pair of microcode PROMs with bitrot;
regenerated PROM images from the original service manual scans on
Bitsavers.  (Ugh)
- Dead 128 word region in 8KW core plane:  Traced down to a broken wire on
the core mat; unfixable (by me at any rate).  Lucked into a cheap (and
fortunately working!) replacement on eBay a couple of weeks back.
- Bad Boxer fan (completely dead, likely the cause of the PROM failures due
to overheating many years back...)
- Failing diagnostics: traced down to operator error on my part
(misjumpered SLU interrupt vector).



>
>
>
> I'm curious what others are
>> running on small systems like this -- until this point I've only played
>> with larger (i.e. at least 28KW memory) systems.  I have only 8KW of
>> memory
>> (with no viable options for expansion)
>>
> Can't MOS memory be put on the Unibus in an expansion chassis?


Yes.  "viable" in this case translates to "I have the parts on hand, or
parts are easy to come by."

Thanks,
- Josh



>
>
>
> and there's not much out there that
>> I've found.  There's paper-tape BASIC (which is always fun) and FOCAL, and
>> PTS-11 (http://iamvirtual.ca/PDP-11/PTS-11/PTS-11.htm) which is pretty
>> cool
>> if a bit cumbersome.  Any other suggestions?
>>
>> I'm also curious if any version of RT-11 that supports the TU58 could be
>> made to run on this system -- I have two SLUs in the system so in theory I
>> can boot from an emulated TU58. However RT-11 4.0's SYSGEN manuals suggest
>> that 12KW is the minimum supported (and experimentation bears this out)
>> and
>> I can't find much in the way of manuals for RT-11 V3B -- which I believe
>> is
>> the earliest version with TU58 support.  (V3B seems to be different enough
>> from later versions that I'm not quite sure how the SYSGEN process works.)
>>
>> Thanks as always,
>> Josh
>>
>>
>>

Re: x86/DOS system backup via rs232?

[Chuck Guzis]

On 11/13/2015 05:10 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:


FWIW, DOS 6.xx will boot on anything 100% PC-compatible, 8088 on up, and it
shouldn't have a problem reading filesystems created by earlier DOS
versions.  Assuming you can write a bootable floppy and get INTERLNK onto
it, that would probably be the easiest option.


A couple of weeks ago, I dug out an old XT with a Quantum Q540 drive in 
it.  It didn't want to start at first, but a couple of tapes on the side 
of the HDA caused the drive to spin up and come ready.


Not wanting to tempt fate, I copied over the Interlink files from DOS 
6.2 onto the XT system and booted a P3 system here running Win98SE and 
connected them with a Laplink parallel cable (I've still got a box of 
them).  I think I ran interlnk on the XT and intersvr on the 98SE one 
(or maybe it was the reverse).  At any rate I discovered that it was 
indeed possible to transfer files over even though the XT was running 
DOS 4.00 and the 98SE was running from a FAT32 partition.


So yes, it can be done.  Just in case, I also had a network card in the 
XT (an Artisoft AE/2T) and MSLANMAN ready.  But I didn't need it.


I do hope the Q540 will keep running for at least another decade, but if 
it doesn't, I've got the files backed up.  I can always run it with an 
XTIDE card and a small CF card, if worse comes to worst.


--Chuck