Re: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[Wayne Sudol]

Laser technology to draw things like this is used in photo typesetters. A
laser beam is focused onto a thin (about 1/2" thick)  many sided (about 8
sides i think) spinning mirror. Each facet of the mirror is cut differently
to deflict the beam up, down or center it on a sheet of moving paper or a
plate of sensitized aluminum. The more facets you have, the more 'cuts' you
can have and the beam can be deflicted more each time it hits the mirror.
The electronics is mainly used to control the timing/pulsing/power of the
laser beam hitting the mirror.  Using the same idea, a larger mirror could
be used to deflict the beam more and shine it on any surface.

 Think of the scene  in the Val Kilmer movie "Real Genius" where they
advertise a part using a laser beam.





Wayne Sudol
Riverside Press-Enterprise
A Digital First Media Newspaper
1-951-368-9945

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 1:45 PM, jim stephens  wrote:

>
>
> On 7/19/2016 1:22 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:
>
>> Those have been around for decades - I recall seeing them used to draw
>> things
>> on the sides of building,_many_  moons ago.
>>
> I know that the pen motors from Brush recorders were used eons ago. They
> have frequency response that is very high, and if you had the power to
> drive them would move very quickly.
>
> Also Oscilligraph motors could be used, and already had mirrors mounted on
> the end.
>
> Piezo actuators could be mounted on the Brush motors and swung for a
> second degree of motion as well.
>
> These were in use in the 70's if not earlier.
> Thanks
> Jim
>
> Gould Brush example:
> GOULD-BRUSH-220-Strip-Chart-Recorder-Model-15-6327-57-POWERS-ON-SEE-DETAILS
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/262507072142
>
> Oscillograph:
> HONEYWELL-1406-VISICORDER-OSCILLOGRAPH
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/272248210671
>
>

DECmate, Rainbow, and Pro 350/380 parts

[Paul Anderson]

I just dug out what might be my last extra DECmate II CPU for a list
member, and now have access to several Pro and Rainbow CPUs and other parts.

If you have any interest, please contact me off list. Shipping from
Illinois.

Thanks, Paul

Another pdp-8 auction at 25k

[Sam O'nella]

http://m.ebay.com/itm/DEC-PDP8-I-MINICOMPUTER-PDP8-PDP-8-PDP-8-/201627112300

Did someone already post this other pdp-8 auction? Same semi-ridiculous 
starting price as other straight 8 but i honestly don't know enough about PDP 
to know what this is or if its not a straight version.  Seems like a museum 
piece though although perhaps all of you PDP collectors have a similar setup 
:-) 

Re: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825

[Curious Marc]

Great info. I'm on travel but I will check which ROMs I have when I come back 
on Friday. 
Marc

> On Jul 19, 2016, at 2:06 PM, tony duell  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> Probably a question for Tony's encyclopedic knowledge. I just
>> scored two HP 9825, one a later "T" option and one "B" version 
>> with all the fixings (i.e ROM packs). They both seem to work
>> save the usual tape drive which I have not gotten to yet. Both
>> have the flexible disc ROM. What kind of discs can I hook up?
> 
> Which flexible disk ROM? There are 2. The older one, AFAIK 
> supports the HP9885 8" drive which has a 16 bit parallel interface
> and needs the right version of the 98032 to hook it up. The later
> disk ROM supports the HP9895 on HPIB.
> 
> The older ROM needs a disk with various programs on it to
> work, it is essentially just a bootstrap. Have any such disks
> survived?
> 
> -tony

Re: DEC H-500 Computer Lab pins and docs (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Karl-Wilhelm Wacker]

This company does custom tapered pins in brass -
There are others out there I'm sure.

I would find out what their minimum is and get a bulk order together.

http://www.stanlok.com/Taper_Pin_Pages/an386.html

A place I worked for in the past had www.mill-max.com do a custon part for 
them,

in the 100's - I would talk to them about a part also.

Karl

- Original Message - 
From: "Vincent Slyngstad" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 


Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 6:43 PM
Subject: Re: DEC H-500 Computer Lab pins and docs (was Re: Straight 8 up on 
Ebay just now)




From: Karl-Wilhelm Wacker: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:25 AM
Does anyone have one of the patch cables, and can they measure the 
diameter of the pin and it's length?


The width goes from about .093" near the tip to 0.1" near the crimp.  The 
length of the tapered region is about 0.32".  The rounded tip has a radius 
of .046" or so, and the crimp area is about .28" long, accommodating the 
stranded hook-up wire and insulation.  The wire extends beyond the crimp 
into the tapered section, but I can't see in there to determine if it is 
soldered or what.



Also, is it a straight pin or like a bannana jack with springy sides?


Miniature banana jacks (not the regular ones) actually fit the holes OK, 
but are horribly expensive, and also wear on the soft brass holes.
I've bought some of the stackable jumpers, and used them in a pinch, but 
it isn't that great of a solution.  (It was actually on H901 lab panels, 
which have similar brass grommets.)

http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/lab/lab.php

   Vince 

Re: Reproduction micros

[Eric Smith]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 9:36 AM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> RISC, as a term, may come from IBM, but the concept goes back at least as far 
> as the CDC 6000 series.  Pipelining, to the CDC 7600.

Possibly depending on exactly how you define it, pipelining may go
back to the IBM 7030 "Stretch" (1961). Also speculative execution.

A lot of "modern" computer architecture concepts are actually quite old.

RE: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[Mark Green]

I don't know a lot about data transmission, my main application is display.
The mathematics behind data transmission and display are similar, they are
based on wave propagation and diffraction and lots of Fourier transforms.
The laser power is not overly important, it's the resolution of diffraction
pattern or hologram that you produce.  It's a very redundant coding scheme,
so part of the signal can be lost and you can still recover all the
information.

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Swift
Griggs
Sent: July 19, 2016 6:04 PM
To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
Subject: RE: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was
Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Mark Green wrote:
> In my day job I work on computational holography and other forms of 
> esoteric 3D displays, so I can give you some insight in how these 
> things work.

Holography is amazing. Do you know much about so-called "free space optical"
data transmission? I worked with some gear a few years ago that could
transmit & receive using multiple lasers at 1Gbit. I was fascinated with
that stuff, but the vendor had their folks do all the alignment and
installation. So, I didn't get to work with it much.

I wonder if you've seen faster speeds than that. I also wonder what the
power levels look like for those lasers and what distances the really
serious ones can reach. Can they still work in bad weather? It seemed like
the ones that I mentioned, still worked in the rain.

-Swift

PS: It was the May 1984 National Geographic cover that blew me away and made
me forever respect holography. :-)


---
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Re: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Mouse

> my impression is that they're only for pre-prepared displays, and only
> some displays (notably those that don't involve the beam turning any
> sharp corners

My vague recollection is that they could do pretty sharp corners, but it's
been decades. IIRC, they were multi-coloured.

> Turning sharp corners is the hard part with mechanical deflectors like
> mirrors, as it means very high acceleration of the mechanical parts. 

Probably the trick is to do what old voice-coil actuator drives did for
multi-track seeks, which was to evenly accelerate up to maximum velocity,
coast at that until you got close to the target track, and then evenly ramp
down, so that the head assembly's radial velocity goes to 0 as you get to the
target track. (If you're not moving enough tracks to do the whole thing, you
only ramp up part-way, then ramp back down.) The RK05 drive did this with
fancy analog circuits, but these days one would do it in software.

I would assume one would do something similar with the mirror; evenly
accelerate up to maximum slew rate, then back down at the end of the move, so
that when one gets to the corner, the mirror is mostly stationary, and so not
so much force is needed to sharply change directions. Of course, this might
make the parts of the line where the mirror is moving slower brighter, but
perhaps one could tweak the brightness to compensate.

Noel

Re: DEC H-500 Computer Lab pins and docs (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: Karl-Wilhelm Wacker: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:25 AM
Does anyone have one of the patch cables, and can they measure the diameter 
of the pin and it's length?


The width goes from about .093" near the tip to 0.1" near the 
crimp.  The length of the tapered region is about 0.32".  The 
rounded tip has a radius of .046" or so, and the crimp area 
is about .28" long, accommodating the stranded hook-up 
wire and insulation.  The wire extends beyond the crimp into 
the tapered section, but I can't see in there to determine if it 
is soldered or what.



Also, is it a straight pin or like a bannana jack with springy sides?


Miniature banana jacks (not the regular ones) actually fit the holes 
OK, but are horribly expensive, and also wear on the soft brass holes.
I've bought some of the stackable jumpers, and used them in a pinch, 
but it isn't that great of a solution.  (It was actually on H901 lab panels, 
which have similar brass grommets.)

http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/lab/lab.php

   Vince 

Re: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[Pete Turnbull]

On 19/07/2016 21:46, Mouse wrote:

You'd probably know, then - what's the fastest way to deflect a
laser beam?  In particular, I'm wondering how practical it might be
to take a laser and turn it into a vector display



Turning sharp corners is the hard part with mechanical
deflectors like mirrors, as it means very high acceleration of the
mechanical parts.  I haven't done the math to be sure, but,
until/unless taught otherwise by testing, I'd feel dubious about
clipping the X and Y signal bandwidths at anything lower than ~1MHz.


If you want to experiment, you might try to find the mirror/coil 
assemblies from a Pioneer laserdisk player or similar.  They consist of 
a small mirror mounted on a moving coil so as to turn on one axis 
through an angle of some +/-10deg (total 20deg).  They're light enough 
to respond somewhere in the kHz (maybe 10s of kHz) range if you only 
need small deflections, rather than the full 20deg.  I've got one here, 
but never got round to trying it out.


--
Pete

Re: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[ethan]

Killer. I wish we were neighbors, Ethan. We'd be able to throw the most
awesome block parties, I swear. I bet you are a musician, too.


I live in Virginia but go to a number of events every year. I dabble with 
music a little, have some synths and midi hardware (and of course an Atari 
ST setup, and a luggable Pentium 200 with a SB/GUS and Voyetra Sequencer!) 
Also dabble a little with saxophones but it's been a while!



Okay, after talking about the recent roots of that hobby, and in an effort
to keep this slightly on topic, do you know anything about the original
animations used on Freemont street in Las Vegas? I was told that at one
time it was run from an Amiga using Scala "and some other stuff". If you
haven't seen it, it's a giant (uhm, like 4 city blocks) color LED array
and a big sound system.


Hmm interesting! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scala_%28company%29  No 
mention of freemont street but their current market is digital signage. 
That would have been one of the earliest LED video screens ever!


I'm sure you know the thing about Garth/Dana Carvey? Him mentioning the 
Unix book in Waynes World was a nod to his brother, his brother founded 
NewTek the company behind the Amiga video toaster and the current NewTek 
Tricaster stuff?


Also, you can put together your own freemont-street-living-room at not 
totally insane prices now. I put together this LED video screen, it's a 
square meter of panels, the software screen scrapes Windows desktop sends 
it over gigabit:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=78RUIGVvQ5E


--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[ethan]

Yeah, me too, but my impression is that they're only for pre-prepared
displays, and only some displays (notably those that don't involve the
beam turning any sharp corners, such as Lissajous figures).
My impression may, of course, have been - be - incorrect, which is what
I'm asking for; if you've seen such displays involving sharp-corner
turns of the beam and run-time chosen displays, then obviously my
impression is incorrect and the technology exists.


The devices are called Galvometers and they work like audio meters. There 
is in deed a mirror, and they are used in an XY pair. Old gas lasers used 
a RF driven crystal to select a specific wavelength of light (and deflect 
all other wavelengths.) Those crystal setups are known as Poly-chromatic 
acouso-optic modulation or PCAOM for short.


The current fastest scanners that I know of on the market for laser show 
display would be the Pangolin Saturns. Next up would be something in the 
6800 series from Cambridge Technology.


The galvos can do sharp turns, text, and graphics. There is software for 
Linux that can do edge tracing and send it out of a modified sound card 
DAC (has to pass DC voltage?) to the X/Y scanner drivers. Most galvos have 
a feedback loop for inertial correction.


The laser display world uses a test frame known as the ILDA (International 
Laser Display Association) and there is a performance benchmark in points 
per second, so 12,000 points per second is old spec, 30,000 points per 
second is a newer spec. Now people are claiming 60 and 90K on the modern, 
expensive, quality scanners. The Chinese stuff is mostly 30K and 40K. The 
old days 8 degrees was the scan width but now people push it way further.


Old technology stored the laser show information on various formats for 
shows ... like 8 track multitrack reel to reel, and then the Alesis SVHS 
based ADAT machines were popular for a while. Now everything is directly 
driven from computer.


Some of the old systems are being recovered here and there, and similar to 
vintage computers people pet them and clean them and take care of them. 
I'm pretty certain some old school stuff existed in the S100 world, but 
none of that has surfaced. There is also analog consoles and the like.


As far as sending video from a computer frame buffer, I think it might be 
way too fast. Also, the more you scan and the faster you scan the laser 
power has to be higher. And there can also be issues with modulating the 
actual laser diodes. Direct solid state run at one rate and diode pumped 
solid state run at another rate.


This is a random picking of a laser graphics show, projected on a scrim. 
It's from LD-2000 which would of been Windows 2000 to XP era software, but 
the show is pushed into a card that is a Motorola 68040 on a board with 
RAM where the card just runs the show once it's loaded. Pangolin's roots 
are on the Amiga so I've always grinned thinking they just put an Amiga on 
a board:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=khVGAOLTaTA

There are a few ports of MAME for running vector arcade games into laser 
projectors, the older hardware had quite a bit of flicker.


There is also someone who has rebuilt, from scratch, several older analog 
consoles that had some fame.


China really opened the floodgates with the availability of parts, and 
lots of projectors and low cost galvos. Before China a set of galvos could 
run a thousand or more dollars with the amps. And the PCAOM hardware would 
costs thousands. When I had the argon system I had picked it up from a 
NASA auction while hunting lasers, SGIs, and Suns.


Everyone will probably cry when I say that one of the first NASA auctions 
I went to there was a Convex system there.

RE: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Mark Green wrote:
> In my day job I work on computational holography and other forms of 
> esoteric 3D displays, so I can give you some insight in how these things 
> work.

Holography is amazing. Do you know much about so-called "free space 
optical" data transmission? I worked with some gear a few years ago that 
could transmit & receive using multiple lasers at 1Gbit. I was fascinated 
with that stuff, but the vendor had their folks do all the alignment and 
installation. So, I didn't get to work with it much.

I wonder if you've seen faster speeds than that. I also wonder what the 
power levels look like for those lasers and what distances the really 
serious ones can reach. Can they still work in bad weather? It seemed like 
the ones that I mentioned, still worked in the rain.

-Swift

PS: It was the May 1984 National Geographic cover that blew me away and 
made me forever respect holography. :-)

RE: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[Mark Green]

In my day job I work on computational holography and other forms of esoteric
3D displays, so I can give you some insight in how these things work.

Remember these are vector displays and not raster displays, so the
computational side is not an issue.  You are basically looking at a pair of
D/A convertors that are driven by a pair of parallel ports.  The circuit is
probably a bit more complicated than that, but you get the idea.  This can
be done interactively with no problem.  With a modern CPU you are probably
looking at less than 1% of the CPU time.

The complication occurs with the lasers and the optics.  For an outdoor
display you need a very high power laser, which will literally melt standard
optics devices.  There are special lens and mirrors that are used with high
power lasers, look at Edmund Optics.  The deflection range is relatively
small, around 1 degree.  The limiting factor is how fast you can move the
mirror, which depends on mass and inertia.  With these small deflections you
can get pretty high rates.

Indoors with low light you can get away with much lower power, 10mW is more
than enough.  With this power level you can use standard optics, and the
lasers are quite cheap < $30 as long as you like red.  I've heard of people
using TI DMDs to deflect laser beams.  Even the low end DMDs can display 1
bit raster images at 4000Hz.

One of the problems with this technology is it's hard to modulate the laser
intensity, which greatly restricts the range of colours you can produce.

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse
Sent: July 19, 2016 4:47 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was
Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

>> You'd probably know, then - what's the fastest way to deflect a laser 
>> beam?  In particular, I'm wondering how practical it might be to take 
>> a laser and turn it into a vector display on a handy blank wall [...]
> What bandwidth (deflection rate) do you need?  Full scale in a 
> microsecond?  In 10 microseconds?

Well, if it takes longer than 100ms to replot the display, it will flicker
visibly, and the more under 100ms the better.  In that time I'd like to draw
at least a couple hundred lines, though most of them will be short (line
length maybe 1-15% of corner-to-corner distance).  What kind of
radians/second deflection rates this means depends on how far from the wall
you put the projector.

But, in terms of the bandwidth on the X and Y axis signals?  If we say
200 lines at 25 ms replot (I get 20ms frame rate out of the cg6 for displays
significantly more complex than that - ie, with the cg6 the actual
limitation is the video signal vertical frequency), that's 125us/line.
Turning sharp corners is the hard part with mechanical deflectors like
mirrors, as it means very high acceleration of the mechanical parts.  I
haven't done the math to be sure, but, until/unless taught otherwise by
testing, I'd feel dubious about clipping the X and Y signal bandwidths at
anything lower than ~1MHz.

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Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Greg Stark]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 5:47 PM, Mouse  wrote:
> For example, I once had a neighbour who replaced an outlet in his
> kitchen.  Turned off the breaker, removed the old one, put in the new
> one, all very nice.  Turned the breaker for that circuit back on and
> popped the service main breaker.

Heh, I knew what was coming here and that it must mean you were in
Canada (and only then checked the sender...)

But all this seems like a red herring. Surely the three-phase power
requiring devices only require three phase for the cooling systems?
Wouldn't it be easier to just use a modern switching power supply to
provide 5V and feed cold air directly from your home hvac and not try
to run 50-year old cooling and power?

-- 
greg

Re: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[jim stephens]

On 7/19/2016 1:22 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

Those have been around for decades - I recall seeing them used to draw things
on the sides of building,_many_  moons ago.
I know that the pen motors from Brush recorders were used eons ago. They 
have frequency response that is very high, and if you had the power to 
drive them would move very quickly.


Also Oscilligraph motors could be used, and already had mirrors mounted 
on the end.


Piezo actuators could be mounted on the Brush motors and swung for a 
second degree of motion as well.


These were in use in the 70's if not earlier.
Thanks
Jim

Gould Brush example:
GOULD-BRUSH-220-Strip-Chart-Recorder-Model-15-6327-57-POWERS-ON-SEE-DETAILS
http://www.ebay.com/itm/262507072142

Oscillograph:
HONEYWELL-1406-VISICORDER-OSCILLOGRAPH
http://www.ebay.com/itm/272248210671

Re: Reproduction micros

[ben]

On 7/19/2016 9:04 AM, Peter Corlett wrote:

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 03:30:19PM +0200, Liam Proven wrote: [...]

There's a hint here, though:
https://www.epo.org/learning-events/european-inventor/finalists/2013/wilson/feature.html



 From there, it seems to be saying that the essence of the
invention is that the

ARM ISA is RISC, it is a load-store architecture, and the CPU was
pipelined.

RISC implies a load-store architecture, so that claim is redundant.

Pipelining is an older idea: the 1979-vintage 68000 does it, and the
1982-vintage 68010 even detects certain string/loop instructions in
its pipeline and avoids re-fetching them from memory when repeating
the sequence.

IMO, it's the predicated instructions that is ARM's special sauce and
the real innovation that gives it a performance boost. Without those,
it'd be just a 32 bit wide 6502 knockoff.


And I go the other way, no CPU speed up was really was needed back then.
Cpu's bigger than 8 bits could have decoded and executed the 1st 
instruction, with empty bus cycle then for video or dma or dynamic ram 
refresh.

As for any RISC the 32 bit fetch and the ability
to cache effective addresses makes its speed.
Ben.
PS: With the amount cache to today's cpu's, would a delay line computer
be a better working model, than that of Random Access Memory?

Re: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[Mouse]

>> I'm wondering how practical it might be to take a laser and turn it
>> into a vector display on a handy blank wall
> Those have been around for decades - I recall seeing them used to
> draw things on the sides of building, _many_ moons ago.

Yeah, me too, but my impression is that they're only for pre-prepared
displays, and only some displays (notably those that don't involve the
beam turning any sharp corners, such as Lissajous figures).

My impression may, of course, have been - be - incorrect, which is what
I'm asking for; if you've seen such displays involving sharp-corner
turns of the beam and run-time chosen displays, then obviously my
impression is incorrect and the technology exists.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
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Re: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Mouse

> I'm wondering how practical it might be to take a laser and turn it
> into a vector display on a handy blank wall

Those have been around for decades - I recall seeing them used to draw things
on the sides of building, _many_ moons ago. I'm assuming they bounce the beam
off a mirror, and actuate the mirror, but I don't actually know how they
worked.

Noel

Re: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[Paul Koning]

> On Jul 19, 2016, at 4:02 PM, Mouse  wrote:
> 
>>> Light show hobby.
> 
> You'd probably know, then - what's the fastest way to deflect a laser
> beam?  In particular, I'm wondering how practical it might be to take a
> laser and turn it into a vector display on a handy blank wall - but
> that requires some very fast acceleration of the spot, probably faster
> than mechanical deflection can support (though if I'm wrong I'd love to
> know it).  For example, does piezoelectricity make a crystal distort
> enough to use it as an optical deflection element in such a scheme?
> (My guess is no, but I don't actually know.)
> 
> I have SPARCstations with cg6s that I can use as vector displays, but
> they are vectors converted to raster.  I'd like to do real vector - a
> parallel port driving a couple of moderately fast D->A converters might
> be able to do it; it might take something better, dunno.  But without
> the deflection mechanism there's no point in even trying to design the
> rest of it.

What bandwidth (deflection rate) do you need?  Full scale in a microsecond?  In 
10 microseconds?

Piezoelectric loudspeakers work up into ultrasonic range.  A mirror attached to 
such an actuator would give you variable deflection.  So 10 microseconds might 
be doable.

A faster (no moving parts) scheme might be to use Kerr cells.  I don't know if 
that has been done, but from what I understand about the Kerr effect it seems 
plausible that it could be.

paul

Re: Seagate 50-pin SCSI drives

[Chris Hanson]

Are they dumping it on eBay, or did they used to sell it on eBay?

If the former, do you know their eBay ID?

  -- Chris

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jul 19, 2016, at 12:40 PM, Electronics Plus  wrote:
> 
> A reseller in GA is dumping some online inventory that they used to sell on
> ebay. Included are 
> 
> 23 SEAGATE ST32500N HARD DRIVE
> 
> 
> 
> If interested, email to Mike Roetzer [m...@tbfcomputing.com]
> 
> 
> 
> Not affiliated with the seller at all.
> 
> 
> 
> Cindy Croxton
> 

Re: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Mouse wrote:
> You'd probably know, then - what's the fastest way to deflect a laser 
> beam?

Whoa. Interesting problem since a photon carries no charge and thus you 
can't horizontally or vertically deflect it with a magnetic field. I guess 
that's why folks make things like these:

http://www.newson.be/rhothor.htm

> In particular, I'm wondering how practical it might be to take a laser 
> and turn it into a vector display on a handy blank wall - but that 
> requires some very fast acceleration of the spot, probably faster than 
> mechanical deflection can support (though if I'm wrong I'd love to know 
> it).

I wonder how laser projectors work. The must use some kind of internal 
screen like the ones that use "lamps". I'm guessing they just use lasers 
instead of lamps to get a brightness and longevity boost.

> For example, does piezoelectricity make a crystal distort enough to use 
> it as an optical deflection element in such a scheme? (My guess is no, 
> but I don't actually know.)

I found mention of something like that in this paper:
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1875389214002351

It's in the references:
F. Filhol, E. Defay, C. Divoux, C. Zinck, M.-T. Delaye
Resonant micro-mirror excited by a thin-film piezoelectric actuator for 
fast optical beam scanning

That sounds wicked-cool, by the way. If you ever do build something like 
that, please share some video!

-Swift

Re: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[Karl-Wilhelm Wacker]

They generaly use mirrors -

I would cobble something together by taking the laser diode read head from 
a CD rom,
and removing the diode assembly, and glue a small, thin, front surface 
mirror in its place,

and drive the coil from the output of an audio amp, just to try it out.
A pair of these, at right angles, would give you X/Y deflection.

Karl



- Original Message - 
From: "Mouse" 

To: 
Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 4:02 PM
Subject: Re: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was 
Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))




Light show hobby.


You'd probably know, then - what's the fastest way to deflect a laser
beam?  In particular, I'm wondering how practical it might be to take a
laser and turn it into a vector display on a handy blank wall - but
that requires some very fast acceleration of the spot, probably faster
than mechanical deflection can support (though if I'm wrong I'd love to
know it).  For example, does piezoelectricity make a crystal distort
enough to use it as an optical deflection element in such a scheme?
(My guess is no, but I don't actually know.)

I have SPARCstations with cg6s that I can use as vector displays, but
they are vectors converted to raster.  I'd like to do real vector - a
parallel port driving a couple of moderately fast D->A converters might
be able to do it; it might take something better, dunno.  But without
the deflection mechanism there's no point in even trying to design the
rest of it.

/~\ The ASCII   Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
X  Against HTML mo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!  7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B 

Re: LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[Mouse]

>> Light show hobby.

You'd probably know, then - what's the fastest way to deflect a laser
beam?  In particular, I'm wondering how practical it might be to take a
laser and turn it into a vector display on a handy blank wall - but
that requires some very fast acceleration of the spot, probably faster
than mechanical deflection can support (though if I'm wrong I'd love to
know it).  For example, does piezoelectricity make a crystal distort
enough to use it as an optical deflection element in such a scheme?
(My guess is no, but I don't actually know.)

I have SPARCstations with cg6s that I can use as vector displays, but
they are vectors converted to raster.  I'd like to do real vector - a
parallel port driving a couple of moderately fast D->A converters might
be able to do it; it might take something better, dunno.  But without
the deflection mechanism there's no point in even trying to design the
rest of it.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

LASERS! && Freemont Street LED array (was Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now))

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, et...@757.org wrote:
> Light show hobby. Inspired by the Def Leppard music video "Pour some 
> sugar on me."

Killer. I wish we were neighbors, Ethan. We'd be able to throw the most 
awesome block parties, I swear. I bet you are a musician, too.

> Everything is from China and solid state now. There is a laser 
> "con/fest" of sorts and a small bit of vintage computing cross-over. 

Huh, cool! That sounds (and from the videos also looks) fun.

> Like any technology I suppose it grew up along side of personal 
> computing.

> SELEM event in NC: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S75y8-StKE

Neat. What fun!

Okay, after talking about the recent roots of that hobby, and in an effort 
to keep this slightly on topic, do you know anything about the original 
animations used on Freemont street in Las Vegas? I was told that at one 
time it was run from an Amiga using Scala "and some other stuff". If you 
haven't seen it, it's a giant (uhm, like 4 city blocks) color LED array 
and a big sound system.

-Swift

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Paul Koning wrote:
> I wouldn't run my $100 little VFC in production, but I expect that the 
> more expensive ones from serious companies like Yaskawa or Allen-Bradley 
> will do just fine.

I forgot about those. I think you are right. I've seen what I believe to 
be massive VCFs in a metal-powder mill with multiple inputs. Those 
probably can provide you with even more redundancy since you can run 
multiple input lines.

-Swift

Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now

[COURYHOUSE]

I just put in pdp-8 in ebay search and saw it last nite -Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 7/19/2016 12:24:15 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
pon...@update.uu.se writes:

I can't  find it, does anyone have a URL?

/P

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at  01:58:12PM -0700, jim stephens wrote:
> 25,000, Alexandria, Va.
>  
> Josh Dersch can have one for his home and for work.
> 
>  BTW, about the other nice system noted here, I was hoping the 11/20  
would
> stay off the radar and not go for a zillion bucks, so much for  that idea.
> At least I have the means to go to Tucson and get it if I'm  nuts and go 
for
> it.
> 
> Thanks
>  Jim

Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now

[Pontus Pihlgren]

I can't find it, does anyone have a URL?

/P

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 01:58:12PM -0700, jim stephens wrote:
> 25,000, Alexandria, Va.
> 
> Josh Dersch can have one for his home and for work.
> 
> BTW, about the other nice system noted here, I was hoping the 11/20 would
> stay off the radar and not go for a zillion bucks, so much for that idea.
> At least I have the means to go to Tucson and get it if I'm nuts and go for
> it.
> 
> Thanks
> Jim

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[ethan]

I haven't been able to articulate anything witty, but I'll go ahead and
just say: Ethan I don't know what you do with those BF-lasers, but it
sounds damn awesome, anyway. Your stock just went up. It's hard to make
lasers anything but sci-fi radical coolness.


Light show hobby. Inspired by the Def Leppard music video "Pour some sugar 
on me."


Everything is from China and solid state now. There is a laser "con/fest" 
of sorts and a small bit of vintage computing cross-over. Like any 
technology I suppose it grew up along side of personal computing. Early 
animation/graphics systems probably existed (low quantity) on S100 systems 
then moved to things like the Commodore Amiga (Pangolin) and then IBM PC 
(but using coprocessor cards and stuff.)


SELEM event in NC:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-S75y8-StKE

There are more videos on youtube but I just grabbed one I know.
Just another geekfest, and that's just one of a number of rooms.

--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Dale H. Cook]

At 02:41 PM 7/19/2016, Fred Cisin wrote:

> and resulted in high voltage to the 110 outlets, damaging a bunch of minor 
> stuff, such as grinder, space heater, clock, etc.

Obviously a delta with a high (aka "wild") leg.

Dale H. Cook, Roanoke/Lynchburg, VA
Osborne 1 / Kaypro 4-84 / Kaypro 1 / Amstrad PPC-640
http://plymouthcolony.net/starcity/radios/index.html 

Rescue Fwd: Atari 1040ST (w/Hybrid Arts, Apple 7100AV (w/Digidesign) Utah

[John Foust]

A rescue available...  contact Ric directly below.

- John

>From: Ric Chitwood 
>Subject: Atari 1040ST
>Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2016 10:56:05 -0600
>
>I have a fully functioning Atari 1040ST with monitor in the original boxes 
>that I would like to donate.
>It also has the Hybrid Arts Smpte Track hardware and software included.
>
>I also have a fully functioning Apple 7100AV computer with monitor and 
>Digidesign sound card and software floppy discs. Are you interested in these 
>computers or do you know of someone who is? 
>
>Ric Chitwood
>Pleasant Grove, Utah

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Fred Cisin]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Paul Koning wrote:
Anything powered by electric motor above 2 hp or so often comes in 3 
phase, and when you get to somewhat higher power (5 hp or so) it seems 
to be about the only option.  Lathes and milling machines are good 
examples.


and air compressors in automotive shops, maintaining a large tank of 
compressed air.



3-phase comes in "delta" or "Wye"("Y")
some installers don't know the difference!
I experienced TWO misdone installations.  One was an auto garage, and 
resulted in high voltage to the 110 outlets, damaging a bunch of minor 
stuff, such as grinder, space heater, clock, etc.


The other was was a PDP installation.  After excessive downtime of third 
party disk drive, the community college had sold it to a neighboring 
school district, and bought a roomful of PCs. Microsoft PC COBOL and 
Fortran were crap, but quite adequate for teaching the languages, and it 
was great to have dozens of machines for students to use without fear of 
downtime.  PG (our power company) agreed to buy a new replacement 
computer, if those involved would go along with the fiction that it had 
been a lightning strike (NOT common here).  The bad drive ceased 
to be a problem.  Everybody was happy, and PG got to call it a donation 
on their taxes.

Wiring Regulations. RE: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Dave G4UGM]

In the UK we have, for DOMESTIC premises something call "Part P"

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse
> Sent: 19 July 2016 17:47
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)
> 
> >> [...electrical wiring...]
> > This very definitely is an area where, if you're not 100% comfortable
> > with t$
> 
> Also, know your own limits.  A depressing number of people think they're
> more competent than they are.
> 
> For example, I once had a neighbour who replaced an outlet in his kitchen.
> Turned off the breaker, removed the old one, put in the new one, all very
> nice.  Turned the breaker for that circuit back on and popped the service
> main breaker.
> 

In the UK we used to have an inspection regime. You did the work, they would
inspect.

These days, for DOMESTIC premises we have something call "Part P" which
limits what a householder can and cannot do.

So you can generally do "like for like" replacements, add additional outlets
where permitted and one or two other things.

Originally all work in Kitchens was defined as "Special" and was notifiable,
but this was modified so that is no longer the case.

So as the above is a "like for like" replacement, I believe it is currently
permitted in the UK.

Of course in a Museum, or even a Scout Hut, provided it does not share a
supply with residential premises then any one can do the
Work so long as it is later inspected.

... the problem with Part P is that it encourages a "tick box" approach and
the Electrician who replaced my "Consumer Unit" (distribution panel)
With a new one with multiple RCD's which tripped suggested it would be
simpler to re-wire rather than fix the existing wiring. 
This sort of approach seems common. The actual fault was that I have a pair
of linked smoke detectors, and one was connected via one RCD, the other via
a different RCD.
The connection between the two was sufficient to cause an imbalance. I
replaced them with wireless linked smoke detectors and all works well


> When I investigated, it turned out the new outlet still had the bridging
piece
> that shorts together the hots for the two outlets, and this was a kitchen
> outlet and thus had separate circuits for each half (and, as is often the
case,
> they were on adjacent fingers in the breaker box and thus on different
> phases).  So, of course, the new outlet shorted the two hot phases
together.
> 
> He didn't have the experience to recognize that those shorting pieces
exist,
> to realize that having four conductors instead of three coming to the
outlet -
> or its being a kitchen outlet - likely means the two halves are on
different
> circuits and thus likely different phases, or the electrical understanding
to put
> those facts together.  Which wouldn't've been a problem, except that he
> thought he was fine - he didn't bring me in until the main service breaker
> blew.  (He did, fortunately, have enough sense for that to tickle his
> "something I don't understand happened, call for help" reaction.)
> 
> I've been doing electrical work since I was maybe ten or twelve, when I
> helped my parents wire the house they were building.  (My father inspected
> my work first; then, this being de rigeur there-and-then, it was inspected
by
> a suitable authority.  Only then was it energized.)  I don't hesitate to
do
> routine house electrical work, maybe even installing 30A outlets (though
I'd
> make sure I looked up the appropriate gauge of wire, and probably then
> used the next larger gauge).  But I'd call in someone more experienced for
> something well outside my own experience, like (say) dealing with 600/600
> service.
> 
> I would say that, if you don't have a good deal of experience, find
someone
> who does to look over your work before you energize it.
> Indeed, some jurisdictions require that for work done by unlicensed
persons
> - or at least used to, and I would assume some still do.  Even if yours
doesn't,
> it strikes me as the smart thing to do.
> 
> /~\ The ASCII   Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>  X  Against HTML  mo...@rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Dave
G4UGM

Re: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825

[Paul Berger]

On 2016-07-19 2:25 PM, tony duell wrote:

There was only ever support for 8" diskette drives, and to support 9895
you need the second version of the Diskette ROM which appears to be very
rare.  I t sure would be nice if someone who has one of these ROMs would
dump the contents or loan it to someone who could dump it, so that we
might be able to clone the ROM module.

It's not totally trivial. The later version module is so large that part of the
ROM is bank-switched. So you would have to make sure you copied the
entire ROM and the copied the bank-switching circuitry in the cloned
module.

-tony
Yes I saw your schematic, it does not seem too big of a challenge, but 
on the other hand it may be bank switched just because it supports both 
diskette drives and both halve may not be required to support only 9895, 
but without a dump that is only speculation.


Paul.

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Paul Koning]

> On Jul 19, 2016, at 1:51 PM, et...@757.org wrote:
> 
> ...
> I've heard sometimes the utility will indeed give you 3phase but you have to 
> pay them to replace the transformer and it's very very expensive. Normally 
> it's people buying used milling equipment that are after it from my 
> experience. There are rotary converters and solid state converters but 
> probably not ideal for huge loads.

Anything powered by electric motor above 2 hp or so often comes in 3 phase, and 
when you get to somewhat higher power (5 hp or so) it seems to be about the 
only option.  Lathes and milling machines are good examples.

The expense of a new service for 3 phase is one issue; it may not be available 
at all.  A lot of US rural areas have a single wire running along the street.  
The only way you could get 3 phase service is for the utility to replace that 
by 3 wires, for however many miles it takes to get to the spot where their 3 
phase service ends.

Rotary converters have a good reputation among home workshop types.  You can 
build them or buy them.  I liked the VFC approach when I realized how 
inexpensive a basic one can be, plus I get variable speed and instant reverse 
and controlled braking as well.

paul

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, et...@757.org wrote:
> The Cray is single phase, the only thing I've ever owned that was 3 
> phase was the laser stuff. Now my solid state laser projector uses 100 
> watts and producsed half the power of the argon that used to take 3ph @ 
> 30A (and still tripped the breaker sometimes.)

I haven't been able to articulate anything witty, but I'll go ahead and 
just say: Ethan I don't know what you do with those BF-lasers, but it 
sounds damn awesome, anyway. Your stock just went up. It's hard to make 
lasers anything but sci-fi radical coolness.

> I've heard sometimes the utility will indeed give you 3phase but you 
> have to pay them to replace the transformer and it's very very 
> expensive.

Yep. It's happened in every case I've been involved with here in Colorado 
(ie.. residential or small buildings, not in data centers).

> Normally it's people buying used milling equipment that are after it 
> from my experience. There are rotary converters and solid state 
> converters but probably not ideal for huge loads.

... and as I mentioned before, they can break. So, even if your VCF will 
handle the load, your uptime requirement might be a dealbreaker if you 
have commercial intentions.
 
> The Cray uses 5 x Pioneer magnetics power supplies that I believe are 
> identical to those in the Sun E1.

"back in the day" I was a certified (not as an FE, though) in various ways 
for the E10k, E15k, and E25k. We had several at Oracle when I worked 
there. However, I don't remember that detail (the brand of the PSs). I'm 
sure you are right, though.

> Note - in the modern datacenter in the US it's not uncommon for 
> everything to be run on 208, but everything would run on 120.

Yep, that's my experience, too. Although many telco datacenters still use 
DC. They are funny like that.

-Swift

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[ethan]

Right... and in my area (hardly unique, I'd wager), you cannot get
3-phase in residential areas.  The shared transformers on the poles
don't provide it and you can't pay them to add/change a transformer.
You have to be in a commercial area to get that.  Fortunately for me,
my tastes in minicomputers runs "small", so my largest machines have a
30A 110V single-phase plug (frequently to an H-861, but not always).


The Cray is single phase, the only thing I've ever owned that was 3 phase 
was the laser stuff. Now my solid state laser projector uses 100 watts and 
producsed half the power of the argon that used to take 3ph @ 30A (and 
still tripped the breaker sometimes.)


I've heard sometimes the utility will indeed give you 3phase but you have 
to pay them to replace the transformer and it's very very expensive. 
Normally it's people buying used milling equipment that are after it from 
my experience. There are rotary converters and solid state converters but 
probably not ideal for huge loads.


The Cray uses 5 x Pioneer magnetics power supplies that I believe are 
identical to those in the Sun E1. The smaller rack with the VME 
chassis and hard drives -- good chance the power supplies are okay with 
110/120v. The disk trays at least are just good quality SMPS that do 5/12 
in each drawer (was 4 x 9GB full height disk per drawer.)


The Pioneer Magnetics supplies that run the computational part are like 
48vdc out @ 5000W each so not sure if they would run on 120V but if so 
-- it would be a real high amperage load.


Note - in the modern datacenter in the US it's not uncommon for everything 
to be run on 208, but everything would run on 120.



--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Paul Koning wrote:
> Yes, and time dependent as well.  I grew up in Holland; in the 1970s, we 
> had 3 phase in our house because we had an electric cooking range.

As you probably know, that's not usual the setup in North America, even 
for folks with electric ranges.

> In the USA, if you're a home owner with a need for 3 phase power, you 
> probably have to get a phase converter.  Fortunately those are not hard 
> to get, and solid state ones (variable frequency motor controllers) can 
> be rather inexpensive.

I've been responsible for bringing 3-phase into several new buildings. 
I'd totally endorse a VFC in most cases (except that it's one more part to 
break if that's a concern). The reason is that the lowest cost I've seen 
in Colorado was $4500 and the most is $7000 from Xcel. I've *never* heard 
of them simply saying "Oh your old transformer will handle that just 
fine." YMMV

-Swift

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Paul Koning wrote:
> It all depends on what you're comfortable with.

My original point was that it's not trivial. I'd stand by that point no 
matter how comfortable someone is with the install. Of course, even that 
is subjective, I suppose. If you have tons of time, money, and you were 
born with rubber duck feet, okay, sure, it's trivial for that particular 
human-duck hybrid. :-)

My real point is that if someone thinks they are just going to un-do a few 
screws on the breaker panel, slap in a 30A breaker, and they are done: 
that's not realistic. That's kinda how using the word "trivial" struck me 
along with the original description, at least. Maybe I'm over-thinking it.

> There are plenty of books explaining to homeowners how to wire outlets, 
> add breakers, and even larger scale stuff like replacing whole panels.  

Perhaps it wasn't obvious, but I've also done this type of work myself 
before, IRL. I choose not to use as much jargon, but that does not mean 
I'm speaking about hypotheticals. Personally, I don't need the Amazon 
book, though others might appreciate that. Again, I wasn't saying, "OMG, 
that's impossible!" My points were, simply "It's not trivial" and "It's a 
tad bit dangerous to trivialize it.".

> Yes, it takes time to do it right, and installing conduit and thick wire 
> demands some muscle.  Clearly, it's not for everyone.

I think most able-bodied folks would have the "muscle" to do it. It 
doesn't require winning any strongman competitions. No matter if you are a 
skinny little waif like me or some bodybuilding strongman, as I'm sure you 
all are. The issue I was bringing up wasn't despair at the inhuman 
physical strength required (joke!), but that it's going to take time, 
energy, and money... ie... subjectively non-trivial resources. 

To your point, it's definitely going to be cheaper to do it yourself 
versus using a licensed electrician, and it's not black magic.

> Then again, neither is carpentry, or plumbing.

Fair enough, but there isn't as much of a chance for 
instant-electrocution-death involved with plumbing and carpentry. Putting 
in 3-phase 208 isn't rocket science, but it can definitely kill you, burn 
your house down, or ruin your gear if you do it wrong. Of course, plumbing 
and carpentry done wrong could eventually flood your house or cause it to 
fall down in some extreme cases, too. The results just *usually* aren't 
quite as immediate and dramatic as electrical mistakes are.

> Personally, I will readily do electrical work, plumbing on a more 
> limited basis, carpentry hardly at all.

To your point, I'm quite the opposite. I'm a woodworker and setup to do 
just about any kind of carpentry imaginable. I don't have the butt-crack 
power (or the slightest detectable will) to properly plumb, that's for 
sure. When it comes to electrical work the issue is often permitting and 
inspection that are a problem in my area (building boom etc..) that makes 
it non-trivial. That and dealing with Xcel Energy, who could probably 
screw up a wet-dream, for the feeds.

> Other people have a completely different list of what they would 
> undertake.  For example, a lot of people would not tinker with software 
> or networks.

Agreed.

> This very definitely is an area where, if you're not 100% comfortable 
> with the job, the right answer is to pay to have it done.

Yeah, that's sort of my underlying point. While it might be easy to some 
people in terms of them not feeling intimidated by the task, it still will 
take some time, effort, money, and risk to your person (small or large 
depending on your levels of caution and experience).

-Swift

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Paul Koning]

> On Jul 19, 2016, at 12:53 PM, Mouse  wrote:
> 
>> [...], especially since most electrical installations (even domestic)
>> are 3-phase.
> 
> This, I believe, must be location-specific.  In North America, it is
> usual for domestic electrical feeds to be only two-phase (that is, they
> are the two sides of a centre-tapped secondary - the two hot wires are
> 180 degrees out of phase with one another).

Yes, and time dependent as well.  I grew up in Holland; in the 1970s, we had 3 
phase in our house because we had an electric cooking range.  But ours was the 
only house in the block with 3 phase service; all our neighbors cooked with gas.

In the USA, if you're a home owner with a need for 3 phase power, you probably 
have to get a phase converter.  Fortunately those are not hard to get, and 
solid state ones (variable frequency motor controllers) can be rather 
inexpensive.  I have one for the 3-phase motor on the lathe in the barn.  $100 
for a 3 hp model, as I recall, though that may have been on sale.  VFCs should 
even work for 3 phase 400 Hz power, just the thing if you have a CDC Cyber 
tucked away in the basement.

paul

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Ethan Dicks]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 12:53 PM, Mouse  wrote:
>> [...], especially since most electrical installations (even domestic)
>> are 3-phase.
>
> This, I believe, must be location-specific.  In North America, it is
> usual for domestic electrical feeds to be only two-phase (that is, they
> are the two sides of a centre-tapped secondary - the two hot wires are
> 180 degrees out of phase with one another).

Right... and in my area (hardly unique, I'd wager), you cannot get
3-phase in residential areas.  The shared transformers on the poles
don't provide it and you can't pay them to add/change a transformer.
You have to be in a commercial area to get that.  Fortunately for me,
my tastes in minicomputers runs "small", so my largest machines have a
30A 110V single-phase plug (frequently to an H-861, but not always).

Code in my area allows for homeowners to do some of their own wiring,
but for projects larger than, essentially, outlet and toggle-switch
replacement, permits are required (but enforcement is, of course,
negligible unless something goes horribly wrong).  They did just amend
code locally to _prohibit_ landlords from self-repair of electrical
(and I think gas and plumbing) in rental properties, because of
several high-profile fires caused by inexpert work.  So you can work
on your own domicile, but not your tenants'.

-ethan

Re: DEC H-500 Computer Lab pins and docs (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Ethan Dicks]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 12:26 PM, Vincent Slyngstad
 wrote:
> From: Ethan Dicks: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:29 AM
>>
>> Does anyone have a modern source of pins that fit the socket holes in
>> the Computer Lab?  ISTR there are a few of us here who have an H-500,
>> but very few, or no, patch cables.  I think Molex pins have been tried
>> and rejected.
>
> Nope.  I've been looking for those for some time.  I didn't like the Molex
> pins, as their retention clips aren't really the right thing and scratch the
> brass rings that should interface smoothly with the proper brass taper pins.

Right.  It was your experiences I was thinking of with Molex pins.

I myself have no original pins to measure.

> I have an old scan of the teacher's guide at
> http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/pdf/

This is certainly a contemporary teacher's guide, but it's
stylistically and typographically 1960s and does not resemble the one
I'm remembering.  Was there perhaps a later DEC logic lab from 1972 to
1975 that would have had a later manual?  Perhaps that's what I'm
thinking of.  I just remember being given a workbook by a relative who
was a school teacher right about the time I was first learning logic
and BASIC.  It had problems and large blank sections for drawing your
work, among other differences.

-ethan

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Mouse]

> [...], especially since most electrical installations (even domestic)
> are 3-phase.

This, I believe, must be location-specific.  In North America, it is
usual for domestic electrical feeds to be only two-phase (that is, they
are the two sides of a centre-tapped secondary - the two hot wires are
180 degrees out of phase with one another).

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
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Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Christian Corti]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Swift Griggs wrote:

The photo of that unit is entertaining. Whoever buys it will need to setup
3x 30A 220v outlets. That's going to make some licensed electrician very
happy.


Why? 32A 3-phase CEE connectors (the red ones) are very common, especially 
since most electrical installations (even domestic) are 3-phase. We have 
several in our museum, for example for the IBM 1130, the IBM 3340 disk 
drives and the three-rack HP system. You can also have 16A CEE connectors. 
Older installations may still have Perilex connectors.


Christian

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Mouse]

>> [...electrical wiring...]
> This very definitely is an area where, if you're not 100% comfortable with t$

Also, know your own limits.  A depressing number of people think
they're more competent than they are.

For example, I once had a neighbour who replaced an outlet in his
kitchen.  Turned off the breaker, removed the old one, put in the new
one, all very nice.  Turned the breaker for that circuit back on and
popped the service main breaker.

When I investigated, it turned out the new outlet still had the
bridging piece that shorts together the hots for the two outlets, and
this was a kitchen outlet and thus had separate circuits for each half
(and, as is often the case, they were on adjacent fingers in the
breaker box and thus on different phases).  So, of course, the new
outlet shorted the two hot phases together.

He didn't have the experience to recognize that those shorting pieces
exist, to realize that having four conductors instead of three coming
to the outlet - or its being a kitchen outlet - likely means the two
halves are on different circuits and thus likely different phases, or
the electrical understanding to put those facts together.  Which
wouldn't've been a problem, except that he thought he was fine - he
didn't bring me in until the main service breaker blew.  (He did,
fortunately, have enough sense for that to tickle his "something I
don't understand happened, call for help" reaction.)

I've been doing electrical work since I was maybe ten or twelve, when I
helped my parents wire the house they were building.  (My father
inspected my work first; then, this being de rigeur there-and-then, it
was inspected by a suitable authority.  Only then was it energized.)  I
don't hesitate to do routine house electrical work, maybe even
installing 30A outlets (though I'd make sure I looked up the
appropriate gauge of wire, and probably then used the next larger
gauge).  But I'd call in someone more experienced for something well
outside my own experience, like (say) dealing with 600/600 service.

I would say that, if you don't have a good deal of experience, find
someone who does to look over your work before you energize it.
Indeed, some jurisdictions require that for work done by unlicensed
persons - or at least used to, and I would assume some still do.  Even
if yours doesn't, it strikes me as the smart thing to do.

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Re: DEC H-500 Computer Lab pins and docs (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: Karl-Wilhelm Wacker: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 9:25 AM
Does anyone have one of the patch cables, and can they measure the diameter of 
the pin and it's length?


Also, is it a straight pin or like a bannana jack with springy sides?


It is a smooth-walled brass taper pin with a crimp connector for the
wire.  There's a photo at 
http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/computerlab/computerlab.php

you can click on for a (slightly) better view.

The diameter is similar to the pins that go in the old connectors that
DEC used for current loop connectors.  Wider at the wire end, though,
to provide the wedging action.

The central feature, which is seldom seen anymore, is the taper that
allows the pin to smoothly insert, yet firmly wedge in there when
inserted.  That makes it more suitable, in my opinion, as it's really
hard to screw anything up (other than having it still a little loose
because you didn't insert it firmly).

I can attempt to measure one up.

   Vince 

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Chuck Guzis]

On 07/19/2016 08:29 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> Or hobbyist.  It's pretty trivial, after all.  If you live in a state
> where that's not allowed, that would be an issue.  But in NH, for
> example, homeowners can do their own electrical work.  I wouldn't do
> work on the meter box or other always-live parts, but anything that
> can be powered down isn't an issue.  For one thing, I know from
> experience that the fact someone has a license doesn't necessarily
> make him qualified to do electrical work.

A big concern would be getting basic service. I'd probably want a
secondary 200A panel for this, so the local utility would probably drop
a second transformer in my front yard (there's buried 12KV service
running up my driveway).   At least getting the extra panel would
involve a licensed electrician and inspections.

What would be a bigger concern is any HVAC needs.  The EPA has been
getting very predatory in their regulation of refrigerants and who is
qualified to handle them.  New proposed regulations are even more
stringent.  Life is very good if you're a licensed HVAC tech today.

--Chuck

Re: DEC H-500 Computer Lab pins and docs (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Vincent Slyngstad]

From: Ethan Dicks: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 8:29 AM

Does anyone have a modern source of pins that fit the socket holes in
the Computer Lab?  ISTR there are a few of us here who have an H-500,
but very few, or no, patch cables.  I think Molex pins have been tried
and rejected.


Nope.  I've been looking for those for some time.  I didn't like the 
Molex pins, as their retention clips aren't really the right thing and 
scratch the brass rings that should interface smoothly with the proper 
brass taper pins.



Also, the 1969 Computer Lab Handbook is on bitsavers (in
'dec/handbooks').  I recall a 8.5"x11" book on the Computer Lab, newer
layout, probably a 1970s publication date, possibly a teacher's guide.
I was given one as a kid, but it vanished decades ago.  Anyone
remember this?  Anyone have one for scanning?


I have an old scan of the teacher's guide at 
http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/pdf/


This came from another listmember, years ago.  Perhaps I should 
link to it from 
http://www.so-much-stuff.com/pdp8/computerlab/computerlab.php


   Vince 

Re: DEC H-500 Computer Lab pins and docs (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Karl-Wilhelm Wacker]

Does anyone have one of the patch cables, and can they measure the diameter 
of the pin and it's length?


Also, is it a straight pin or like a bannana jack with springy sides?

There is a company  www.mill-max.com that makes almost any type of 
pin/socket  that you can think of -

take a look thru their con-line catalog.

Karl

- Original Message - 
From: "william degnan" 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts" 


Sent: Tuesday, July 19, 2016 11:32 AM
Subject: Re: DEC H-500 Computer Lab pins and docs (was Re: Straight 8 up on 
Ebay just now)



On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:29 AM, Ethan Dicks  
wrote:



On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 5:01 AM,   wrote:
>  also  a Rare Digital DEC H-500 Computer Lab, 1960s, Same  Switches as
> PDP-8/I, Vintage  for 700+
>
> ( we have an extra one of these Computer Lab, if  anyone here  is
> interested)

Does anyone have a modern source of pins that fit the socket holes in
the Computer Lab?  ISTR there are a few of us here who have an H-500,
but very few, or no, patch cables.  I think Molex pins have been tried
and rejected.

Also, the 1969 Computer Lab Handbook is on bitsavers (in
'dec/handbooks').  I recall a 8.5"x11" book on the Computer Lab, newer
layout, probably a 1970s publication date, possibly a teacher's guide.
I was given one as a kid, but it vanished decades ago.  Anyone
remember this?  Anyone have one for scanning?

-ethan




I have the Computer Lab Workbook, not Handbook.  Maybe that's what you're
looking for.
--
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg 
Youtube: @billdeg 
Unauthorized Bio  

Re: Reproduction micros

[Paul Koning]

> On Jul 19, 2016, at 12:10 PM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
> 
>> From: Paul Koning
> 
>> The article, as usual, talks about a whole bunch of things that are
>> much older than the author seems to know.
> 
> "The two most common things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." OK,
> so technically it's ignorance, not stupidity, but in my book it's stupid to
> not know when one's ignorant.
> 
>> RISC, as a term, may come from IBM, but the concept goes back at least
>> as far as the CDC 6000 series.
> 
> Hmm; perhaps. I always felt that RISC meant 'making the basic cycle time as
> fast as possible by finding the longest path through the logic - i.e. the
> limiting factor on the cycle time - and removing it (thereby making the
> instruction set less rich); then repeat'. (And there's also an aspect of
> moving complexity from the hardware to the compiler - i.e. optimizing system
> performance across the _entire_ system, not just across a limited subset like
> the hardware only).

"Making the cycle time as fast as possible" certainly applies, in spades, to 
the 6600.  The deeper you dig into its details, the more impressed you will be 
by the many different ways in which it does things faster than you would expect 
to be possible.  (For example, how many other machines have divide logic -- not 
"reciprocal approximation -- that divides N bit values in N/2 cycles?)  Or 
context switching that requires just a single block-memory transaction?

> As I've previously discussed, RISC only makes (system-wide) sense in an
> environment in which memory bandwidth is plentiful (so that having programs
> contain more, simpler instructions make sense) - does that apply to the CDC
> machines?

Yes, 32 way interleaving, 1 microsecond full memory cycle, 100 ns CPU cycle.  
The Cybers are not memory bandwidth limited.  Note that the 6600 has quite 
advanced memory operation scheduling and queueing.

>> Pipelining, to the CDC 7600.
> 
> Didn't STRETCH have pipelining? Too busy/lazy to check...

Could be.  I meant to apply "goes back at least as far as" here as well.

> 
>> And if you equate RISC to load/store with simple regular instruction
>> patterns, you can probably go all the way back to the earliest
>> computers
> 
> Well, I'm not at all sure that load-store is a good indicator for RISC - note
> that that the PDP-10 is load-store... But anyway, moving on.

No, but I said "load/store with simple regular instruction patterns".  On 
reconsideration, I think I'll cancel what I said, though.  Early machines 
tended to be single address but not load store; rather, you'd find operations 
like "add memory to register".  A CDC 6000, though, clearly is strictly load 
store.

> One of the books about Turing argues that the ACE can be seen as a RISC
> machine (it's not just that it's load-store; its overall architectural
> philosophy is all about maximizing instruction rates).

I think a lot of machine designers, though not all, were seriously interested 
in making them go fast.  For an example I'd point to the Dutch ARMAC, from 
around 1956, a drum main memory machine with a one-track RAM buffer, allowing 
the programmer to make things go much faster by arranging for bits of code and 
associated data to be all in one track.  When your basic machine has a 20 
millisecond operation time because of the drum, the need to optimize becomes 
rather obvious...

paul

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[ethan]

The other thing that's not trivial is that if you make a mistake, you will
likely either: 1. Die.  2. Burn down your house. 3. Ruin some expensive
and rare gear.
To me, that all sounds like a helluva pain and != trivial. Then again, I'm
a software guy. What do I know? :-P


Some fun pics:
https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/IMG_0208.JPG
https://users.757.org/~ethan/pics/office/IMG_0209.JPG
30A 208 pulled from panel temporary to run argon laser. That was before I 
installed the 36KvA UPS. The little power supply in the back takes in 3 
phase 208A @ 30A and uses 2 gallons a minute of water, then drops like 70 
amps of DC at 60V or something to the laser. Something really nasty and 
lethal.


There might be other pics on my flickr of the Cray through the years at 
www.flickr.com/photos/ethanotoole


Had 4, sold 3, kept one for years... but it's up for sale cause 
hobbies/interests have changed a bit and storage space/power (still have 
more than my fair share of older computers.) I work near all the 
datacenters in Ashburn Virginia and I've been tempted to see about finding 
some space for it. The buildings often have a ton of unused space.




--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Paul Koning]

> On Jul 19, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Swift Griggs  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Paul Koning wrote:
>>> On Jul 19, 2016, at 10:54 AM, Swift Griggs  wrote:
>>> On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, et...@757.org wrote:
 Hmp. Well the Cray J932SE on there is legit :-)
>>> The photo of that unit is entertaining. Whoever buys it will need to setup 
>>> 3x 30A 220v outlets. That's going to make some licensed electrician very 
>>> happy. 
>> Or hobbyist.  It's pretty trivial, after all.  If you live in a state 
>> where that's not allowed, that would be an issue.
> 
> With respect, in my view, it's not trivial. ... That's real physical work 
> in my book and may non-trivially eat your weekend.
> 
> The other thing that's not trivial is that if you make a mistake, you will 
> likely either: 1. Die.  2. Burn down your house. 3. Ruin some expensive 
> and rare gear. 
> 
> To me, that all sounds like a helluva pain and != trivial. Then again, I'm 
> a software guy. What do I know? :-P

It all depends on what you're comfortable with.  There are plenty of books 
explaining to homeowners how to wire outlets, add breakers, and even larger 
scale stuff like replacing whole panels.  
https://www.amazon.com/Wiring-Simplified-Based-National-Electrical/dp/097929455X
 is one nice example, compact but densely packed.

Yes, it takes time to do it right, and installing conduit and thick wire 
demands some muscle.  Clearly, it's not for everyone.  Then again, neither is 
carpentry, or plumbing.  Personally, I will readily do electrical work, 
plumbing on a more limited basis, carpentry hardly at all.  Other people have a 
completely different list of what they would undertake.  For example, a lot of 
people would not tinker with software or networks.

This very definitely is an area where, if you're not 100% comfortable with the 
job, the right answer is to pay to have it done.

paul

Re: Reproduction micros

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Paul Koning

> The article, as usual, talks about a whole bunch of things that are
> much older than the author seems to know.

"The two most common things in the universe are hydrogen and stupidity." OK,
so technically it's ignorance, not stupidity, but in my book it's stupid to
not know when one's ignorant.

> RISC, as a term, may come from IBM, but the concept goes back at least
> as far as the CDC 6000 series.

Hmm; perhaps. I always felt that RISC meant 'making the basic cycle time as
fast as possible by finding the longest path through the logic - i.e. the
limiting factor on the cycle time - and removing it (thereby making the
instruction set less rich); then repeat'. (And there's also an aspect of
moving complexity from the hardware to the compiler - i.e. optimizing system
performance across the _entire_ system, not just across a limited subset like
the hardware only).

As I've previously discussed, RISC only makes (system-wide) sense in an
environment in which memory bandwidth is plentiful (so that having programs
contain more, simpler instructions make sense) - does that apply to the CDC
machines?

> Pipelining, to the CDC 7600.

Didn't STRETCH have pipelining? Too busy/lazy to check...

> And if you equate RISC to load/store with simple regular instruction
> patterns, you can probably go all the way back to the earliest
> computers

Well, I'm not at all sure that load-store is a good indicator for RISC - note
that that the PDP-10 is load-store... But anyway, moving on.

One of the books about Turing argues that the ACE can be seen as a RISC
machine (it's not just that it's load-store; its overall architectural
philosophy is all about maximizing instruction rates).

Noel

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Paul Koning wrote:
> > On Jul 19, 2016, at 10:54 AM, Swift Griggs  wrote:
> > On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, et...@757.org wrote:
> >> Hmp. Well the Cray J932SE on there is legit :-)
> > The photo of that unit is entertaining. Whoever buys it will need to setup 
> > 3x 30A 220v outlets. That's going to make some licensed electrician very 
> > happy. 
> Or hobbyist.  It's pretty trivial, after all.  If you live in a state 
> where that's not allowed, that would be an issue.

With respect, in my view, it's not trivial. As you point out, it's not 
actually allowed everywhere. Unless you are some kind of local townie who 
knows all the bylaws, you'd need to call your local building/permitting 
office to be sure.  I've lived in several places where it was definitely 
not allowed. In (al)most all places, you also need a permit to do the 
work, even if the PtB let you do it as an unlicensed hobbyist.  Also, any 
given rinky-dink home electrical panel box isn't always going to support 
30A breakers, might be out of room, or might not magically grant you the 
service-line current you may require (or in the case of 3-phase, the third 
phase you are going to need). You'll also need to find a route to get the 
proper sized wire in to the walls to feed the L6-30 or whatever 
receptacles you need, and install the outlets. That's real physical work 
in my book and may non-trivially eat your weekend.

The other thing that's not trivial is that if you make a mistake, you will 
likely either: 1. Die.  2. Burn down your house. 3. Ruin some expensive 
and rare gear. 

To me, that all sounds like a helluva pain and != trivial. Then again, I'm 
a software guy. What do I know? :-P

-Swift

Re: DEC H-500 Computer Lab pins and docs (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Ethan Dicks]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 11:32 AM, william degnan  wrote:
>> Also, the 1969 Computer Lab Handbook is on bitsavers (in
>> 'dec/handbooks').  I recall a 8.5"x11" book on the Computer Lab, newer
>> layout, probably a 1970s publication date, possibly a teacher's guide.
>> I was given one as a kid, but it vanished decades ago.  Anyone
>> remember this?  Anyone have one for scanning?
>>
> I have the Computer Lab Workbook, not Handbook.  Maybe that's what you're
> looking for.

The PDF floating around (bitsavers, elsewhere) is entitled "Computer
Lab Workbook", my mistake, but it's the size of DEC handbooks.  I've
seen a cover for the first edition dated 1968, and the PDF is of a
second edition, dated 1969.  What I'm looking for is a (probably)
later publication, approx 8.5"x11" and around 1/2" thick.  Totally
different contents.

-ethan

Re: Building the Ultimate Classic Mac.

[Al Kossow]

On 7/18/16 8:36 PM, N0body H0me wrote:

>> Which bare board did you see?
> 
> Long ago, on "The auction site that must not be named", some guy 
> was selling an apple-branded case, with a bare motherboard inside
> (or, perhaps only sparsely populated).  The seller stated it was
> the prototype motherboard for an 88k Mac that was never built.  It
> sold for a stupid amount of money
> 

If it was a Mac si case, that would have been "RLC" (RISC Low Cost)

They most definitely did work, and was what demonstrated that you could
run MacOS with an emulated 68K on a RISC processor.

I also remembered that at the same time as the 88100, a consultant was
working on bringing up the code on an AMD 29000 but that was abandoned
when RLC ran.

The only thing I can think of offhand that I liked better on PPC were the
bitfield insert/extract instructions, which are very useful in the core of
the 68K emulator. It's unlikely that there would have been as many 
implementations
of the 88k as PPC if only Moto would have been involved, and they wouldn't have
gotten IBM's copper fab process, which was critical in getting faster parts.

Re: Reproduction micros

[Paul Koning]

> On Jul 19, 2016, at 11:04 AM, Peter Corlett  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 03:30:19PM +0200, Liam Proven wrote:
> [...]
>> There's a hint here, though:
>> https://www.epo.org/learning-events/european-inventor/finalists/2013/wilson/feature.html
> 
> From there, it seems to be saying that the essence of the invention is that 
> the
> ARM ISA is RISC, it is a load-store architecture, and the CPU was pipelined.
> 
> RISC implies a load-store architecture, so that claim is redundant.
> 
> Pipelining is an older idea: the 1979-vintage 68000 does it, and the 
> 1982-vintage
> 68010 even detects certain string/loop instructions in its pipeline and avoids
> re-fetching them from memory when repeating the sequence.
> 
> IMO, it's the predicated instructions that is ARM's special sauce and the real
> innovation that gives it a performance boost. Without those, it'd be just a 32
> bit wide 6502 knockoff.

The article, as usual, talks about a whole bunch of things that are much older 
than the author seems to know.

RISC, as a term, may come from IBM, but the concept goes back at least as far 
as the CDC 6000 series.  Pipelining, to the CDC 7600.  And if you equate RISC 
to load/store with simple regular instruction patterns, you can probably go all 
the way back to the earliest computers; certainly I can point to early 1950s 
Dutch computers with load/store single-address instructions.

Finally, predicated instructions are also much older.  It may be that the ARM 
team reinvented them independently, but you can find them in the Electrologica 
X-1, which shipped in 1958.  In fact, that machine and its successor X-8 had a 
significantly more powerful scheme, because the flag controlling the 
conditional execution could be set on request, rather than being a condition 
code set by fixed rules.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrologica_X1 has a 
brief example.

paul

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Paul Koning]

> On Jul 19, 2016, at 10:54 AM, Swift Griggs  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, et...@757.org wrote:
>> Hmp. Well the Cray J932SE on there is legit :-)
> 
> The photo of that unit is entertaining. Whoever buys it will need to setup 
> 3x 30A 220v outlets. That's going to make some licensed electrician very 
> happy. 

Or hobbyist.  It's pretty trivial, after all.  If you live in a state where 
that's not allowed, that would be an issue.  But in NH, for example, homeowners 
can do their own electrical work.  I wouldn't do work on the meter box or other 
always-live parts, but anything that can be powered down isn't an issue.  For 
one thing, I know from experience that the fact someone has a license doesn't 
necessarily make him qualified to do electrical work.

paul

DEC H-500 Computer Lab pins and docs (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Ethan Dicks]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 5:01 AM,   wrote:
>  also  a Rare Digital DEC H-500 Computer Lab, 1960s, Same  Switches as
> PDP-8/I, Vintage  for 700+
>
> ( we have an extra one of these Computer Lab, if  anyone here  is
> interested)

Does anyone have a modern source of pins that fit the socket holes in
the Computer Lab?  ISTR there are a few of us here who have an H-500,
but very few, or no, patch cables.  I think Molex pins have been tried
and rejected.

Also, the 1969 Computer Lab Handbook is on bitsavers (in
'dec/handbooks').  I recall a 8.5"x11" book on the Computer Lab, newer
layout, probably a 1970s publication date, possibly a teacher's guide.
I was given one as a kid, but it vanished decades ago.  Anyone
remember this?  Anyone have one for scanning?

-ethan

Re: Reproduction micros

[Peter Corlett]

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 03:30:19PM +0200, Liam Proven wrote:
[...]
> There's a hint here, though:
> https://www.epo.org/learning-events/european-inventor/finalists/2013/wilson/feature.html

>From there, it seems to be saying that the essence of the invention is that the
ARM ISA is RISC, it is a load-store architecture, and the CPU was pipelined.

RISC implies a load-store architecture, so that claim is redundant.

Pipelining is an older idea: the 1979-vintage 68000 does it, and the 
1982-vintage
68010 even detects certain string/loop instructions in its pipeline and avoids
re-fetching them from memory when repeating the sequence.

IMO, it's the predicated instructions that is ARM's special sauce and the real
innovation that gives it a performance boost. Without those, it'd be just a 32
bit wide 6502 knockoff.

Re: Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[ethan]

The photo of that unit is entertaining. Whoever buys it will need to setup
3x 30A 220v outlets. That's going to make some licensed electrician very
happy.


At the old small office I would just pop some breakers out and replace 
them with 2 pole 30 amp ones. When it was at the hackerspace there was 
some sort of fused cut off switch box on the wall, so I terminated a 
twistlock 30A and ran from there over to a subpanel that had the 3 
twistlocks for the Cray cabinets. I used A-B B-C C-A phases, so 208V each. 
I still have the subpanel and also a SquareD Powerlogic monitor w/ CTs and 
stuff that are mounted to the board that was with the system (might be 
visible in the picture.) I used a rubber core cable to run between the two 
-- which I originally had picked up to temporary run a 6 watt argon laser 
system with from time to time.


I originally had 4 of the J932SE systems, they were all HIPPI'ed together 
to form one system when used for power engineering for nuclear subs or 
something (Bechtel.) I dunno, it was all secret and they destroyed all of 
the hard drives and such from the system.


I never really thought the power was that crazy, I work in datacenters and 
these days there are single racks using twice what the Cray takes!



I worked with a Cray for a while of about the same vintage (pre-SGI Cray
running UNICOS and using an Sun SPARC Classic as a helper). It was a large
telco (MCI) and used for fraud-detection on calling cards. It was a
UNICOS-based system in a private Colorado Springs datacenter about two
blocks from some sort of manufacturing site for Cray (the building is on
Rockrimmon in Colorado Springs - the former home of the late Seymour
Cray).
I thought the whole rig was interesting, but it was barely a few weeks
before the whole company went through a near-death experience (two words:
Bernie Ebbers) and I walked across the street to another company and
scored a new gig (it was the late 90's, you could do that sort of thing
then). I never got a chance to get really proficient with the hardware or
with UNICOS. It was my singular regret with that gig, though.


Very cool! NASA LaRC had a J916 system used by some scientists for 
something, other than that I don't know of any others. I was a SGI guy at 
the same place, had some nice boxes.

Cray J932SE (was Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now)

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, et...@757.org wrote:
> Hmp. Well the Cray J932SE on there is legit :-)

The photo of that unit is entertaining. Whoever buys it will need to setup 
3x 30A 220v outlets. That's going to make some licensed electrician very 
happy. 

I worked with a Cray for a while of about the same vintage (pre-SGI Cray 
running UNICOS and using an Sun SPARC Classic as a helper). It was a large 
telco (MCI) and used for fraud-detection on calling cards. It was a 
UNICOS-based system in a private Colorado Springs datacenter about two 
blocks from some sort of manufacturing site for Cray (the building is on 
Rockrimmon in Colorado Springs - the former home of the late Seymour 
Cray).

I thought the whole rig was interesting, but it was barely a few weeks 
before the whole company went through a near-death experience (two words: 
Bernie Ebbers) and I walked across the street to another company and 
scored a new gig (it was the late 90's, you could do that sort of thing 
then). I never got a chance to get really proficient with the hardware or 
with UNICOS. It was my singular regret with that gig, though.



-Swift

Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now

[ethan]

That said I'd figure though some of the higher prices such as  the
current PDP8/I and GT40 are setting for want of bids, they aren't that
far from what you have to pay to get said systems on demand. This one
may go for around the opportunistic price, and be lower, but $10 to $12k
isn't going to be  surprising.


Hmp. Well the Cray J932SE on there is legit :-)


--
Ethan O'Toole

Re: Building the Ultimate Classic Mac.

[Liam Proven]

On 19 July 2016 at 16:08, Swift Griggs  wrote:
>
> IMHO, it's a PITA and not really worth it.


That's my impression, yes.

> Hardware-based Hackintoshes can
> be fast and somewhat well supported.

I know, because I hackintoshed my PC in London before I left.

It was a decent machine off the local Freecycle group -- Core 2 Quad
Extreme, 8GB RAM, SATA DVD-RW. No hard disks or graphics card, which I
cannibalised off my old PC.

As it was the first all-Intel machine I'd had in a long long time --
well over a decade -- I tried hackintoshing it. (At first, it ran
Ubuntu, natch, and I also tried Windows 8 on it for a month or so
before the eval period expired and it started nagging.)

It took days of trial and error but it worked. I intentionally used
Snow Leopard (although Mountain Lion was by then current) because [a]
I wanted PowerPC app support, mainly for MS Office 2004 and [b] it was
an old version already, so probably no patches would come along and
break my installtion.

It worked fine and was a fast, useful, stable machine. I intentionally
didn't try to get sleep/resume working -- it was a desktop; when not
in use, I turned it off. One boot in 50 might fail but a press of the
reset button and it always came up. Floppy drive and PS/2 ports didn't
work, but I could always just reboot into Ubuntu for them.

When I get the box over here, I might try to get it running a more
modern version, just for kicks.

> You just have to be very careful
> about what hardware you pick. If one decides to build one, I'd recommend
> checking the Buyers Guide on http://www.tonymacx86.com.

I'm not that rich!

I bought a used Mac mini, with my 26Y old Apple ABD keyboard on it. :-)

> As far as VMware or VirtualBox goes, that's a different story. I've used
> both of them and as of about a year or so ago, I didn't get satisfactory
> results. For one, even when you use an EFI BIOS, you still need to load
> EFI hackery-loaders, and driver-hacks to get it working.

Yes, tried that.

> I tried to do it
> the "legal way" by buying a copy of OSX Server standalone etc...
>
> https://kb.vmware.com/selfservice/microsites/search.do?language=en_US=displayKC=2005793

OK, never tried that!

> Eventually I got a working guest VM with OSX on it, but I think the
> graphics drivers and other niggly bits were non-optimal to the point it
> was just painful and slow to use. It took quite a bit of time even to get
> it that far (lots of trial and error with the guest VM settings). Perhaps
> things are easier these days, but I certainly couldn't recommend the
> process unless you just wanted/needed OSX Server running in a VM for some
> kind of infrastructure stuff. That's probably exactly what Apple intended,
> too.

I'm tempted to, but the machine I'd want to run it on is AMD-based, so
I think the chances are not good.

> BTW, I've heard it all runs peachy under OSX. Obviously, I'm talking about
> the host-server being FreeBSD, Linux, or Windows.
>
> With Mac Minis and other OSX hardware being pretty accessible, and with my
> bad-attitude toward most modern commercial OSs (app store full of malware
> anyone?) I'm not enthusiastic enough to jack with VM'ing it much. My
> impression is that Apple seems much more interested in iPhones and perhaps
> tablets these days than some "old" desktop OS.

Up to a point, yes. But it's still a damned fine desktop, and the
least-hassle Unix there is. Ubuntu is getting close, though.

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2011/may/17/computing-opensource

http://lifehacker.com/5993401/im-cory-doctorow-and-this-is-how-i-work

> You'd think a company with a bazillion notional dollars equity value would
> have a few spare cycles for keeping the OS interesting. However, lately,
> my impression is that their idea of "interesting" seems to mean they put
> higher walls around the garden. Oh, wait, they are making it mo' betta'
> for to read in traditional Chinese and throwing in a bunch of bundled
> application tweaks that have little to do with the actual OS. Uhh.
> Grrat.

I have no issues with it myself. I don't use Apple phones or laptops,
I don't have a tablet, so the integration features are irrelevant to
me. I don't use Apple's email client, chat client, calendar, notes,
cloud storage, anything. Mostly I use FOSS and freeware apps, so
there's no tie-in for me.

But the integration is, I hear, amazing and best-of-breed.

I gather they're adding Siri to the next version, macOS Sierra, and
after that, there will be more AI features. Not sure that I want any
of that, but we'll see.

> Hey Apple, you might want a modern volume management scheme (ie.. not Core
> Storage) before you slap "Server" on anything else. It's no small wonder
> OSX Server was a failure in the marketplace.

Well, they nearly added ZFS, but bottled out, possibly due to Oracle
and its licensing. Now they're working on a new one:

Re: Building the Ultimate Classic Mac.

[geneb]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Liam Proven wrote:


On 19 July 2016 at 15:44, geneb  wrote:

You have to patch VMWare to turn on the MacOS support - it's not available
by default.



Ah. Well, since I don't own it and prefer FOSS, I'll stick to
VirtualBox and try to uncover the secret. I know people manage to do
it.


VMWare Player can do it as well, but does need the patch tweak to make it 
work properly.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Building the Ultimate Classic Mac.

[Swift Griggs]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Liam Proven wrote:
> I've heard that but I have never once got it to work, either in VMware 
> or VirtualBox. :-(

IMHO, it's a PITA and not really worth it. Hardware-based Hackintoshes can 
be fast and somewhat well supported. You just have to be very careful 
about what hardware you pick. If one decides to build one, I'd recommend 
checking the Buyers Guide on http://www.tonymacx86.com. 

As far as VMware or VirtualBox goes, that's a different story. I've used 
both of them and as of about a year or so ago, I didn't get satisfactory 
results. For one, even when you use an EFI BIOS, you still need to load 
EFI hackery-loaders, and driver-hacks to get it working. I tried to do it 
the "legal way" by buying a copy of OSX Server standalone etc... 

https://kb.vmware.com/selfservice/microsites/search.do?language=en_US=displayKC=2005793

Eventually I got a working guest VM with OSX on it, but I think the 
graphics drivers and other niggly bits were non-optimal to the point it 
was just painful and slow to use. It took quite a bit of time even to get 
it that far (lots of trial and error with the guest VM settings). Perhaps 
things are easier these days, but I certainly couldn't recommend the 
process unless you just wanted/needed OSX Server running in a VM for some 
kind of infrastructure stuff. That's probably exactly what Apple intended, 
too.

BTW, I've heard it all runs peachy under OSX. Obviously, I'm talking about 
the host-server being FreeBSD, Linux, or Windows.

With Mac Minis and other OSX hardware being pretty accessible, and with my 
bad-attitude toward most modern commercial OSs (app store full of malware 
anyone?) I'm not enthusiastic enough to jack with VM'ing it much. My 
impression is that Apple seems much more interested in iPhones and perhaps 
tablets these days than some "old" desktop OS.

http://www.osnews.com/story/29299/Apple_PC_sales_fall_below_market

You'd think a company with a bazillion notional dollars equity value would 
have a few spare cycles for keeping the OS interesting. However, lately, 
my impression is that their idea of "interesting" seems to mean they put 
higher walls around the garden. Oh, wait, they are making it mo' betta' 
for to read in traditional Chinese and throwing in a bunch of bundled 
application tweaks that have little to do with the actual OS. Uhh. 
Grrat.

http://www.apple.com/osx/all-features/

Hey Apple, you might want a modern volume management scheme (ie.. not Core 
Storage) before you slap "Server" on anything else. It's no small wonder 
OSX Server was a failure in the marketplace.

I'd rather install a 20 year old OS I've never seen versus OSX on VMware, 
but that's just me.

-Swift

Re: Building the Ultimate Classic Mac.

[Liam Proven]

On 19 July 2016 at 15:44, geneb  wrote:
> You have to patch VMWare to turn on the MacOS support - it's not available
> by default.


Ah. Well, since I don't own it and prefer FOSS, I'll stick to
VirtualBox and try to uncover the secret. I know people manage to do
it.


-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: Building the Ultimate Classic Mac.

[geneb]

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Liam Proven wrote:


On 18 July 2016 at 22:50, geneb  wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jul 2016, couryho...@aol.com wrote:


Liam, thank you so much for this  information!
I did not know about  all the HACKINTOSH  action out there!


If you've got an Intel cpu, you can run it with VMWare too. :)


I've heard that but I have never once got it to work, either in VMware
or VirtualBox. :-(


You have to patch VMWare to turn on the MacOS support - it's not available 
by default.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Building the Ultimate Classic Mac.

[Liam Proven]

On 18 July 2016 at 22:50, geneb  wrote:
> On Mon, 18 Jul 2016, couryho...@aol.com wrote:
>
>> Liam, thank you so much for this  information!
>> I did not know about  all the HACKINTOSH  action out there!
>>
> If you've got an Intel cpu, you can run it with VMWare too. :)


I've heard that but I have never once got it to work, either in VMware
or VirtualBox. :-(

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: Reproduction micros

[Liam Proven]

On 19 July 2016 at 06:30, Eric Smith  wrote:
>
> I've seen this claim in the past. I've looked over the chipset design,
> and I don't think it did any more wonderful a job of supporting cheap
> commodity DRAM than the other common chipsets of the era. Perhaps
> someone with greater familiarity with the MEMC chip can tell us if
> there is some tricky DRAM support feature I've overlooked.

I will look.

There's a hint here, though:

https://www.epo.org/learning-events/european-inventor/finalists/2013/wilson/feature.html

-- 
Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven
MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven
Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)

Re: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825

[Paul Berger]

On 2016-07-19 1:25 AM, Curious Marc wrote:

Probably a question for Tony's encyclopedic knowledge. I just scored two HP 9825, one a later "T" 
option and one "B" version with all the fixings (i.e ROM packs). They both seem to work save the 
usual tape drive which I have not gotten to yet. Both have the flexible disc ROM. What kind of discs can I 
hook up? I think the HP 9895 8" floppy would work. What about the HP 82901 5.25" floppy drive? How 
do I read/write program files from the disc interface?
Marc

Sent from my iPad
There was only ever support for 8" diskette drives, and to support 9895 
you need the second version of the Diskette ROM which appears to be very 
rare.  I t sure would be nice if someone who has one of these ROMs would 
dump the contents or loan it to someone who could dump it, so that we 
might be able to clone the ROM module.


Paul.

Re: Flex Disc options for the HP 9825

[Paul Berger]

On 2016-07-19 2:06 AM, tony duell wrote:



Probably a question for Tony's encyclopedic knowledge. I just
scored two HP 9825, one a later "T" option and one "B" version
with all the fixings (i.e ROM packs). They both seem to work
save the usual tape drive which I have not gotten to yet. Both
have the flexible disc ROM. What kind of discs can I hook up?

Which flexible disk ROM? There are 2. The older one, AFAIK
supports the HP9885 8" drive which has a 16 bit parallel interface
and needs the right version of the 98032 to hook it up. The later
disk ROM supports the HP9895 on HPIB.
The only difference between the different versions of 98032A is the 
cable and some jumpers inside but it appears to all be documented so 
even if you don't have the option 085 98032A, the 50 pin D shell 
connector used on the 9885 is pretty common.


The older ROM needs a disk with various programs on it to
work, it is essentially just a bootstrap. Have any such disks
survived?

There is an image of one on the hpmuseum.net site.


-tony

Paul.

Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now

[COURYHOUSE]

there is an 8i   with similar crazy price but  different  user  id 
hmmm beware?
 
 also  a Rare Digital DEC H-500 Computer Lab, 1960s, Same  Switches as 
PDP-8/I, Vintage  for 700+
 
( we have an extra one of these Computer Lab, if  anyone here  is  
interested) 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) 
 
 
 
In a message dated 7/19/2016 12:07:02 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
jwsm...@jwsss.com writes:

On 7/18/2016  10:23 PM, Sam O'nella wrote:
> There may be some archives here or vcf  with enough prices.  Iirc i 
thought i remember one selling for something  pretty high (8000/12000?) X years 
ago although i think like this it's a  calculated price of doubling the last 
sale they saw. Although apple 1s seem to  accomplish whatever that law is 
called :-)
I think Straight 8's are nearly  to the point that other systems which 
have published tracking  inventories.  There are very few, this one looks 
complete, or near  complete.

That said I'd figure though some of the higher prices such as  the 
current PDP8/I and GT40 are setting for want of bids, they aren't that  
far from what you have to pay to get said systems on demand. This one  
may go for around the opportunistic price, and be lower, but $10 to $12k  
isn't going to be  surprising.

Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now

[COURYHOUSE]

EEEKK!!!  and it is not the one  with the Plexiglas  surrounds...  kaaa 
ching..$$$ 
 It  does have a nice a/d  unit  Ed#
 
 
In a message dated 7/19/2016 12:07:02 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
jwsm...@jwsss.com writes:

On  7/18/2016 10:23 PM, Sam O'nella wrote:
> There may be some archives here  or vcf with enough prices.  Iirc i 
thought i remember one selling for  something pretty high (8000/12000?) X years 
ago although i think like this  it's a calculated price of doubling the last 
sale they saw. Although apple 1s  seem to accomplish whatever that law is 
called :-)
I think Straight 8's are  nearly to the point that other systems which 
have published tracking  inventories.  There are very few, this one looks 
complete, or near  complete.

That said I'd figure though some of the higher prices such as  the 
current PDP8/I and GT40 are setting for want of bids, they aren't that  
far from what you have to pay to get said systems on demand. This one  
may go for around the opportunistic price, and be lower, but $10 to $12k  
isn't going to be  surprising.

Re: Straight 8 up on Ebay just now

[jim stephens]

On 7/18/2016 10:23 PM, Sam O'nella wrote:

There may be some archives here or vcf with enough prices.  Iirc i thought i 
remember one selling for something pretty high (8000/12000?) X years ago 
although i think like this it's a calculated price of doubling the last sale 
they saw. Although apple 1s seem to accomplish whatever that law is called :-)
I think Straight 8's are nearly to the point that other systems which 
have published tracking inventories.  There are very few, this one looks 
complete, or near complete.


That said I'd figure though some of the higher prices such as the 
current PDP8/I and GT40 are setting for want of bids, they aren't that 
far from what you have to pay to get said systems on demand. This one 
may go for around the opportunistic price, and be lower, but $10 to $12k 
isn't going to be surprising.