Re: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed

[Chuck Guzis]

On 10/31/2016 10:20 PM, Sam O'nella wrote:
> Out of curiosity, since I've never done this either but have heard
> most folks suggest it. How do you seal the newly made jacket? Is it
> not necessary or folks using scotch tape?

It's not really necessary, but use tape if it makes you feel better.  I
don't bother.
-
--Chuck

Re: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed

[Al Kossow]

On 10/31/16 10:20 PM, Sam O'nella wrote:
> How do you seal the newly made jacket?

It's not necessary

Re: Imaging Old Disks Advice Needed

[Sam O'nella]

Out of curiosity, since I've never done this either but have heard most folks 
suggest it. How do you seal the newly made jacket? Is it not necessary or folks 
using scotch tape? 

Re: DEC bus transceivers

[Paul Anderson]

I have thousands of NOS chips here that i hope to finish going through. I
have no idea how many bus transceivers are in there. These were intended
for projects I don't know if I'll ever get around to.

There are a lot of NOS out there at a variety of prices. The common 74xx
are mostly there and fairly cheap. I have several thousand ECLs I have
little use for, and they are getting harder to find.

As far as the DEC chips go, I figured if I ever ran out I would pull them
off of boards that I have a lots of extras.

It's been years since I've looked at the prints, but I should be able to
find some DEC transceivers on boards like DZ11, MS11, MSV11, M3106, M3107,
various omnibus boards etc.

I know is sounds terrible, but I can cut the fingers off, sell the board
for the chips, and make some room which i desperately need.

Paul


On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:12 AM, Noel Chiappa 
wrote:

> > From: Philipp Hachtmann
>
> > that one posting sounded a lot like that, sorry.
>
> OK.
>
> > Do you have a source where there are still 30k chips sitting and
> > waiting?
>
> It was ~30K a couple of months ago. I checked about a week ago, and it was
> down to ~26K (IIRC).
>
> Although, like I said, I doubt they have all 26K in stock themselves;
> based on
> comments they made when we bought a large group, I think that's the total
> number available to them across a number of suppliers, in a network which
> shares inventory information.
>
> Noel
>

Re: Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller

[Jon Elson]

On 10/31/2016 01:04 PM, Pete Lancashire wrote:

Over the years I've played around with a few old CAMAC (*) modules, by
today's standard they pretty much have zero value, anyway that's another
story.
Well, actually, there are still a fair amount of CAMAC 
modules used in various research labs.



  Recently
I've been offered a CAMAC to Unibus board. A Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate
Controller .
A Crate in CAMAC speak is just a chassis with a backplane.

The problem with CAMAC is there is almost no information out there,

Since I don't YET have a Unibus system, it more of a curiosity then
anything.

So .. anyone have the manual ?


We had a 2911 and a 3911 (I think) at Washington University 
in St. Louis.  in fact, I'm pretty sure it is STILL on a 
shelf in my office.  We haven't used it in about 20 years.  
I think the 2911 was a set of boards to connect an ISA-bus 
PC to a CAMAC crate controller.  Anyway, there are two 
parts, one plugs into the CAMAC crate master slots (24 and 
25) and the other plugs into the bus of choice (Unibus, 
Q-bus or ISA, for instance).


Actually, CAMAC is well documented, as it is an 
international standard.  Slot 25 has "N" wires that select a 
slot
(1 - 24) to be accessed.  Each slot has an A address and a F 
(function) address that can be read or written.
Slots 1-24 are wired with a 24-bit read bus and a 24-bit 
write bus. There is also a LAM (look at me) bus that works 
like an interrupt scheme.  The 3912 plugs into slots 24 and 
25.  It was used very widely in nuclear research, but also 
in large industrial process control systems.


I'll check at work tomorrow, I think we might still have the 
manuals for some of these modules.


Jon

Re: Looking for info on a CAMAC

[jim stephens]

On 10/31/2016 5:22 PM, Brian Marstella wrote:

Pete,


Regards, Brian.

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Pete Lancashire 
wrote:


Over the years I've played around with a few old CAMAC (*) modules, by
today's standard they pretty much have zero value, anyway that's another
story. Recently
I've been offered a CAMAC to Unibus board.


I might mention there are some Tektronix to DEC boards, maybe Unibus on 
ebay if anyone has specialized Tek hardware that could be run by DEC.


I don't know any more than that, but am curious if anyone has any ideas 
about what devices Tektronix had with DEC PDP11s integrated in.


When I was first in school, there was a large system with what I'd guess 
was a larger PDP11 system (we had PDP 11/05 demos on another track to 
give time frame, 71-72).


The system Tektronix had was essentially what we'd call a sampling scope 
now with an elaborate tube to digitize samples, and the PDP 11 analyzing 
them.  Don't think it was ever a product, but it was massive, several 
bays.  Out local EE and IEEE groups arranged for the demo to stop at our 
school.


I believe there were FlipChip type boards listed, but am not seeing them 
right now.  Boards below are clearly not for DEC boxes.


thanks
Jim

Tektronix-P1B-R1340-TO-PDP-11-670-3317-02-SA3841-00-Multi-Interrupt-Interface-/
http://www.ebay.com/itm/282002158488

Lot-of-3-Tektronix-670-3317-02-P3B-R1340-TO-PDP-11-670-3263-03-Multi-Interrup-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/351702173881

Re: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's

[jim stephens]

On 10/31/2016 12:41 PM, allison wrote:

On 10/31/16 3:26 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

On Oct 31, 2016, at 2:58 PM, jim stephens  wrote:

If you cared about not erasing the drive manufacture's data on 
sealed media Winchester and the like you have to avoid any writes to 
cylinder 0 at all.


The drive formatting software could read that cylinder track 0 for a 
defect map.  Nothing to stop you from overwriting it, but you would 
then need to do a local media certification that is more complicated 
than just formatting the drive, and mapping out defective tracks / 
sectors.


I never worked with a system that had a controller or software that 
could read the defect track, so don't know how that was used.  Later 
drives with more intelligence in the drive are another matter, but 
in those cases, the hiding of the defect data can be a task assigned 
to that processor, and don't need magic handling of the addressing.
I haven't seen drives that put the defect data on track 0.  DEC put 
it at the very end of the drive (see DEC Std 144).  And as I recall, 
CDC did likewise in the 844 drives (RP04 lookalikes). As for software 
using that data, RSTS certainly did.


CDC MMD and cmd put the map on cylinder 0.  If you had a design that 
could read the track zero info, you could auto configure between MMD 160 
and MMD80.


Having the defect info on the last cylinder would have worked in that 
case, but in design meetings with the ANSI SCSI committee, the seek to a 
maximum cylinder would have meant the controller would need to know that 
in advance when powering up.


Having the info on cylinder 0 with the defect list would allow for auto 
config.  I don't know that it was used, but I don't recall any 
discussions with the info on the last cylinder, though I'm sure the DEC 
guys would have mentioned it were they in on the discussions.

paul

But its not done (defect mapping) on floppies.  defects on floppies 
are a media or drive issue.
Also drive that grind away track 000 usually have enough gunk on the 
head to take out other tracks.


Only talking about sealed media such ad MFM, SMD winchesters.  I guess 
it wasn't clear.  Maybe the discussion about starting @ track 1 was 
about floppies, and I missed that.



Allison

Re: Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller

[Brian Marstella]

Pete,

I think I might have a few Kinetic CAMAC brochures and user manuals. I'll
have to dig around but if you don't have another source, maybe I can scan
them. We had a 2 large crates in our testing lab that I kick myself for not
taking. I had no use for them but it's still some interesting hardware. We
had a couple of old IBM XTs interfaced to them.

Regards, Brian.

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 2:04 PM, Pete Lancashire 
wrote:

> Over the years I've played around with a few old CAMAC (*) modules, by
> today's standard they pretty much have zero value, anyway that's another
> story. Recently
> I've been offered a CAMAC to Unibus board. A Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate
> Controller .
> A Crate in CAMAC speak is just a chassis with a backplane.
>
> The problem with CAMAC is there is almost no information out there,
>
> Since I don't YET have a Unibus system, it more of a curiosity then
> anything.
>
> So .. anyone have the manual ?
>
> (*) -
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Automated_Measurement_and_Control
>

Re: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's

[Fred Cisin]

If you cared about not erasing the drive manufacture's data on sealed 
media Winchester and the like you have to avoid any writes to cylinder 0 
at all.


On a floppy?

It might not be relevant HERE, but SOME computers have a different 
physical format on track 0 (such as systems that evolved from FM to MFM 
and continued to have track 0 be single density)
Writing to track 0 could be hazardous to whatever is s'posed to be on 
track 0.

Re: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's

[Al Kossow]

On 10/31/16 3:08 PM, Vincent Slyngstad wrote:

> Isn't there some weird crap in track 0 on DECmate RX01s

It is IBM 3740 table of contents information.
GA21-9182-5_Diskette_General_Information_Manual_Jul80.pdf for the details

Re: Analogue monitor board repair

[Adrian Graham]

On 31/10/2016 23:14, "drlegendre ."  wrote:

> "Hence the question - am I wasting my time without a schematic for this
> analogue board?"
> 
> Might be helpful if you mentioned exactly what is or isn't wrong with the
> unit.. describe the symptom(s), etc.

I thought I'd ask before ploughing on with a full description. Even just
typing the original question out has made me realise what the display driver
chip is.

See my replies to TonyD, there's more pictures there as well.

Cheers!

> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Adrian Graham > wrote:
> 
>> Folks,
>> 
>> I think I know the answer to this before I even ask, and that answer will
>> be
>> 'got a schematic' to which the answer's 'no and I doubt one exists any
>> more'
>> but...
>> 
>> My recent Executel addition has a 5" screen with associated analogue board
>> that seems to be powered from a display chip I can't find any info on, and
>> at least one of the adjustment potentiometers has suffered metal fatigue
>> and
>> broken:
>> 
>> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelScreenPot.jpg
>> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelAnalogueBoard.jpg
>> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelDisplayChip.jpg
>> 
>> I've replaced it with a seemingly common 10K modern part that I had in my
>> spares box but it's unknown whether the display worked at all prior to it
>> being put in very damp storage, also the rating of the failed pot isn't
>> known but the capacitor next to it is 50V.
>> 
>> I've also removed, checked and replaced out of spec capacitors, one of them
>> was a 680nF 50V radial. I could only find a 63V PET version on cpc's
>> website
>> and did much reading on differing capacitor types, concluding that it
>> SHOULD
>> be OK.
>> 
>> Power supply is known good because it's one of my working ones, the
>> original
>> is still dead.
>> 
>> Hence the question - am I wasting my time without a schematic for this
>> analogue board?
>> 
>> Cheers!
>> 
>> --
>> Adrian/Witchy
>> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
>> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
>> collection?
>> 
>> 
>> 

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?

Re: Analogue monitor board repair

[Adrian Graham]

On 31/10/2016 22:22, "Peter Coghlan"  wrote:

>> 
>> Before I replaced the failed potentiometer (new one seen top left) the
>> display looked like its horizonal hold had gone so I reasoned that's what
>> the pot controlled. I can *nearly* get a steady picture but the brightness
>> is out as well, despite there being working pots for that and contrast. The
>> brightness seemed more constant before I replaced the radial cap with the
>> PET one which is why I wondered if the choice was wrong.
>> 
> 
> Did you measure the resistance of the track on the old potentiometer
> and use something with a similar value for the replacement?
> 
> Is it possible that you misread or misinterpreted the value of the capacitor
> that you replaced? You could try putting the old one back and seeing if there
> is an improvement.

It says 10K on what's left of the wiper, there's a pic in an earlier message
from tonight :) I can't put it back because it's physically rotted
unfortunately.

> What is PET in this context? I am assuming it is nothing to do with Commodore.

PET as in the plastic housing, PET Film cap. I figured my replacement must
be OK since there was one other on the board in that style already.

> Can you take a photograph of what you are seeing on the screen?

Once I've put it all back together, yes. Might be difficult to capture with
a camera though but I'll have a go.

Cheers!

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?

Re: Analogue monitor board repair

[Adrian Graham]

On 31/10/2016 22:29, "tony duell"  wrote:

> 
>> Before I replaced the failed potentiometer (new one seen top left) the
>> display looked like its horizonal hold had gone so I reasoned that's what
> 
> OK... The TDA1180 is the horizontal oscillator, etc, IC. It's well-known.
> 
> Start by getting its data sheet. Indentify the horizontal oscillator
> components
> connected to pins 12, 13, 14, 15 of that IC. Typically you will find a pot
> that controls the DC voltage on pin 15 (slider of pot to pin 15 through a
> resistor). That sets the free-running horizontal frequency

That's the pot I replaced, it goes through a 22ohm resistor.

> Now try adjusting it. If you can get the oscillator to run both too fast
> and too slow (lines sloping both ways) that that part is most likely fine
> and the fault is in the sync circuit. If not, then the oscillator components
> have problems.

Yep, lines sloping both ways is exactly what happens. Perhaps bizarrely this
also seems to affect the contrast.

> Are you getting a sync pulse at pin 8 of the IC? If not, trace back from
> there to the connector to the logic board and if necessary to the video
> IC.

Pin 8 goes right back to a 74LS04 up near the RAM/ROM section of the
motherboard. I'm going to see if it's possible to assemble the whole thing
outside of the big plastic housing and still hold the screen as securely as
possible, it's a complete pain to get the screen in its swivel top and
connect up everything without risk of breakage.

> Are you getting a flyback pulse at pin 6? The horizontal control circuit is
> basically a phase-locked loop comparing the incoming sync pulses with
> flyback signal from the horizontal output stage.

Watch this space :)

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?

Re: Analogue monitor board repair

[drlegendre .]

"Hence the question - am I wasting my time without a schematic for this
analogue board?"

Might be helpful if you mentioned exactly what is or isn't wrong with the
unit.. describe the symptom(s), etc.

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 1:44 PM, Adrian Graham  wrote:

> Folks,
>
> I think I know the answer to this before I even ask, and that answer will
> be
> 'got a schematic' to which the answer's 'no and I doubt one exists any
> more'
> but...
>
> My recent Executel addition has a 5" screen with associated analogue board
> that seems to be powered from a display chip I can't find any info on, and
> at least one of the adjustment potentiometers has suffered metal fatigue
> and
> broken:
>
> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelScreenPot.jpg
> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelAnalogueBoard.jpg
> http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelDisplayChip.jpg
>
> I've replaced it with a seemingly common 10K modern part that I had in my
> spares box but it's unknown whether the display worked at all prior to it
> being put in very damp storage, also the rating of the failed pot isn't
> known but the capacitor next to it is 50V.
>
> I've also removed, checked and replaced out of spec capacitors, one of them
> was a 680nF 50V radial. I could only find a 63V PET version on cpc's
> website
> and did much reading on differing capacitor types, concluding that it
> SHOULD
> be OK.
>
> Power supply is known good because it's one of my working ones, the
> original
> is still dead.
>
> Hence the question - am I wasting my time without a schematic for this
> analogue board?
>
> Cheers!
>
> --
> Adrian/Witchy
> Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
> Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
> collection?
>
>
>

Re: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's

[Vincent Slyngstad]

   > From: Don North
   > Track 0 is not used by standard DEC software

I wonder why DEC did't use track 0. The thing is small enough (256KB in the
original single-density) that even 1% is a good chunk to throw away. Does
anyone know? (I had a look online, but couldn't turn anything up.)


Isn't there some weird crap in track 0 on DECmate RX01s, which has to be 
written in 8b mode instead of 12b mode?


   Vince 

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[COURYHOUSE]

In a message dated 10/31/2016 2:31:02 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
tmfdm...@gmail.com writes:

On Tue,  Nov 1, 2016 at 10:15 AM, william degnan   
wrote:
>>
>> Find a copy of the PDP-11 systems  handbook!  Say 1978, 80 and 82 
versions
>> and
>> see  the difference.  Never mind the Unibus, Qbus, PRO, and PDT  flavors.
>>
>>
>>  Allison
>>
>>>   thanks Ed Sharpe   _www.smecc.org_  (http://www.smecc.org)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
>  Here is a thread I posted on my site, with link to the first printing  of
> the PDP 11 brochure.  The first PDP 11 models had no "/nn" on  the front
> panel.. see for yourself.
>
>  http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593

Mine is a very  early example - number 636 IIRC - and it just says
'pdp-11' on the  front:

http://www.corestore.org/1120-1.jpg

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No  greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for  millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where  no one will ever know or see.'
 
Mike OK  that  is a great indicator!  
serial# and date wise!  Ed#

RE: Analogue monitor board repair

[tony duell]

> Before I replaced the failed potentiometer (new one seen top left) the
> display looked like its horizonal hold had gone so I reasoned that's what

OK... The TDA1180 is the horizontal oscillator, etc, IC. It's well-known.

Start by getting its data sheet. Indentify the horizontal oscillator components
connected to pins 12, 13, 14, 15 of that IC. Typically you will find a pot
that controls the DC voltage on pin 15 (slider of pot to pin 15 through a 
resistor). That sets the free-running horizontal frequency

Now try adjusting it. If you can get the oscillator to run both too fast
and too slow (lines sloping both ways) that that part is most likely fine
and the fault is in the sync circuit. If not, then the oscillator components
have problems.

Are you getting a sync pulse at pin 8 of the IC? If not, trace back from
there to the connector to the logic board and if necessary to the video
IC.

Are you getting a flyback pulse at pin 6? The horizontal control circuit is
basically a phase-locked loop comparing the incoming sync pulses with 
flyback signal from the horizontal output stage.

-tony

Re: Analogue monitor board repair

[Peter Coghlan]

>
> Before I replaced the failed potentiometer (new one seen top left) the
> display looked like its horizonal hold had gone so I reasoned that's what
> the pot controlled. I can *nearly* get a steady picture but the brightness
> is out as well, despite there being working pots for that and contrast. The
> brightness seemed more constant before I replaced the radial cap with the
> PET one which is why I wondered if the choice was wrong.
>

Did you measure the resistance of the track on the old potentiometer
and use something with a similar value for the replacement?

Is it possible that you misread or misinterpreted the value of the capacitor
that you replaced? You could try putting the old one back and seeing if there
is an improvement.

What is PET in this context? I am assuming it is nothing to do with Commodore.

Can you take a photograph of what you are seeing on the screen?

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[Mike Ross]

On Tue, Nov 1, 2016 at 10:15 AM, william degnan  wrote:
>>
>> Find a copy of the PDP-11 systems handbook!  Say 1978, 80 and 82 versions
>> and
>> see the difference.  Never mind the Unibus, Qbus, PRO, and PDT flavors.
>>
>>
>> Allison
>>
>>>   thanks Ed Sharpe  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>
> Here is a thread I posted on my site, with link to the first printing of
> the PDP 11 brochure.  The first PDP 11 models had no "/nn" on the front
> panel.. see for yourself.
>
> http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593

Mine is a very early example - number 636 IIRC - and it just says
'pdp-11' on the front:

http://www.corestore.org/1120-1.jpg

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[william degnan]

>
> Find a copy of the PDP-11 systems handbook!  Say 1978, 80 and 82 versions
> and
> see the difference.  Never mind the Unibus, Qbus, PRO, and PDT flavors.
>
>
> Allison
>
>>   thanks Ed Sharpe  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)
>>
>>
>>

Here is a thread I posted on my site, with link to the first printing of
the PDP 11 brochure.  The first PDP 11 models had no "/nn" on the front
panel.. see for yourself.

http://vintagecomputer.net/browse_thread.cfm?id=593

Bill

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[COURYHOUSE]

In a message dated 10/31/2016 1:41:28 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu writes:

> From: Ed Sharpe

> I wonder if the pdp-11  was just called pdp-11 at t that point or was a
>  pdp-11/20 like we have

Others have better info on this than  me...

> at this time point they got their PDP 11 what  did it say on the front
> panel I wonder?

I'm going  to _guess_ that it was the earlier caption; I definitely recall
reading  somewhere (maybe that history thing I already provided a link to)
that when  the PDP-11/20 first arrived, DEC didn't have a disk drive for it,
and so it  sat in a corner for some months (running some chess problem) 
until
the disk  arrived. So that argues that it was a very early production  
machine.

Noel
 
Noel -  OK that  is  what  I also  read  so probably would have  said  
PDP-11  on the  front  panel  not  11/20 if it was that  early if  we   
subscribe to the theory that  the ones labeled 11 only  were before  the 11/20
 
I  do  wonder if there are  any  photograph  of  the  system  they  used at 
the  get  go of the PDP-11  use?  Need  a photo that  has  definite  date  
info
 
yes, the  systems are the  same  butsome  of this  is important as  I 
do the display  cards  for  the  11/20 we have here at SMECC
 
Thx  Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org) 

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[COURYHOUSE]

In a message dated 10/31/2016 1:58:29 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
ajp...@verizon.net writes:

>  ...
> I  wonder  if the  pdp-11 was  just   called   pdp-11 at t that point or
> was   a   pdp-11/20  like we  have..
At that time PDP-11 was a general  architecture name and 11/mumble was a 
specific system.
Keep in mind  that new versions of the -11 would evolve soon after 
introduction  and
continue over time for decades.

Add to that there were both  processor naming and system configuration 
naming
conventions.
> I  know they are essentially the  same   at this  time   point they  got
> their  PDP 11  what  did it say on  the front  panel  I wonder?
> (figuring all this stuff  out  for titling up  the  cards in the 11/20
> display we  are  planning.)

Find a copy of the PDP-11 systems handbook!   Say 1978, 80 and 82 
versions and
see the difference.  Never mind  the Unibus, Qbus, PRO, and PDT flavors.


Allison
>

OK I  have  seen  both on Panels  pdp-11   and  pdp 11/20
figured the  first  issuance  would  say pdp-11 only  on  panel
Ed#

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[allison]

On 10/31/16 3:29 PM, couryho...@aol.com wrote:


In a message dated 10/31/2016 6:36:17 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu writes:


From: Ed Sharpe
was Unix or C the one  developed on the 11/20?

Both. Unix Version 1 was written in PDP-11  assembler, for the -11/20;
although that was a re-write of an earlier  version written in PDP-7
assembler. C was developed from B in good part  because the word address
model
of B (inherited from its ancestor BCPL)  wasn't a good match for the
PDP-11's
byte addressing model. More  here:

https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/hist.html
https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html


  From: Christian Corti
I think the IP stack needs  separate I/D and more memory

I read that the networking code in 2.x  uses Supervisor mode (apparently it
needed more address space than was  available with only kernel, even with
split I/D).

Noel
  
Great History Noel! Many Thanks!

...
I  wonder  if the  pdp-11 was  just  called   pdp-11 at t that point or
was   a  pdp-11/20  like we  have..
At that time PDP-11 was a general architecture name and 11/mumble was a 
specific system.
Keep in mind that new versions of the -11 would evolve soon after 
introduction and

continue over time for decades.

Add to that there were both processor naming and system configuration naming
conventions.

I know they are essentially the  same   at this  time  point they  got
their  PDP 11  what  did it say on the front  panel  I wonder?
(figuring all this stuff out  for titling up  the  cards in the 11/20
display we are  planning.)


Find a copy of the PDP-11 systems handbook!  Say 1978, 80 and 82 
versions and

see the difference.  Never mind the Unibus, Qbus, PRO, and PDT flavors.


Allison
  
thanks Ed Sharpe  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)
  

Re: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's

[allison]

On 10/31/16 3:26 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

On Oct 31, 2016, at 2:58 PM, jim stephens  wrote:

If you cared about not erasing the drive manufacture's data on sealed media 
Winchester and the like you have to avoid any writes to cylinder 0 at all.

The drive formatting software could read that cylinder track 0 for a defect 
map.  Nothing to stop you from overwriting it, but you would then need to do a 
local media certification that is more complicated than just formatting the 
drive, and mapping out defective tracks / sectors.

I never worked with a system that had a controller or software that could read 
the defect track, so don't know how that was used.  Later drives with more 
intelligence in the drive are another matter, but in those cases, the hiding of 
the defect data can be a task assigned to that processor, and don't need magic 
handling of the addressing.

I haven't seen drives that put the defect data on track 0.  DEC put it at the 
very end of the drive (see DEC Std 144).  And as I recall, CDC did likewise in 
the 844 drives (RP04 lookalikes).  As for software using that data, RSTS 
certainly did.

paul

But its not done (defect mapping) on floppies.  defects on floppies are 
a media or drive issue.
Also drive that grind away track 000 usually have enough gunk on the 
head to take out other tracks.


Allison

Looking for info on a CAMAC module - Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate Controller

[Pete Lancashire]

Over the years I've played around with a few old CAMAC (*) modules, by
today's standard they pretty much have zero value, anyway that's another
story. Recently
I've been offered a CAMAC to Unibus board. A Kinetic 3912 Unibus Crate
Controller .
A Crate in CAMAC speak is just a chassis with a backplane.

The problem with CAMAC is there is almost no information out there,

Since I don't YET have a Unibus system, it more of a curiosity then
anything.

So .. anyone have the manual ?

(*) -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Computer_Automated_Measurement_and_Control

Re: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's

[allison]

On 10/31/16 2:58 PM, jim stephens wrote:



On 10/30/2016 4:24 PM, Don North wrote:

On 10/30/2016 5:47 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Don North 

 > .. the hardware bootstrap reads track 1 sectors 1, 3, 5, 7

Ah, thanks for that. Starting to look at the code, I had missed the
interleave.

So does DEC do anything with track 0, or is it always just empty?

Noel

Track 0 is not used by standard DEC software, block zero of the 
device (boot block)
starts at track 1 sector 1. Track 0 is not even accessible thru the 
standard drivers.


Applies to both PDP-11 (eg, XXDP, RT11) and PDP-8 (OS8).

Maybe specific software that reads/writes disks in IBM exchange mode 
accesses

track 0, but I've never used such s/w and am only guessing
If you cared about not erasing the drive manufacture's data on sealed 
media Winchester and the like you have to avoid any writes to cylinder 
0 at all.



Big difference between hard disk and floppy.
Floppy the track 0 is generally used for "system level" things like 
microcode load or boot block.

DEC varied on hardware (system) and OS and drive(media) as to its use.

The drive formatting software could read that cylinder track 0 for a 
defect map.  Nothing to stop you from overwriting it, but you would 
then need to do a local media certification that is more complicated 
than just formatting the drive, and mapping out defective tracks / 
sectors.


I never worked with a system that had a controller or software that 
could read the defect track, so don't know how that was used.  Later 
drives with more intelligence in the drive are another matter, but in 
those cases, the hiding of the defect data can be a task assigned to 
that processor, and don't need magic handling of the addressing.
Every system that had a MFM drive could format all tracks and even 
either enter the printed bad block list or recover it before format.
Most all could discover new bad blocks as well.   The RQDX1/2/3 ca with 
XXDP software and the controller in the Microvax2000
can as well.  THe higher level interfaces like SCSI can if the drive 
permits it or its terminated with a ADAPTEC or Xybec SCSI to
MFM or RLL controller.  All pre-IDE PCs could as well (WD1002/3/4/5/6 
controller with MFM or RLL drive).



Allison

Thanks
Jim

Re: Analogue monitor board repair

[Adrian Graham]

On 31/10/2016 20:51, "tony duell"  wrote:

> 
>> My recent Executel addition has a 5" screen with associated analogue board
>> that seems to be powered from a display chip I can't find any info on, and
> 
> Well, it won't be _powered_ from that IC. My guess is that said IC provides
> the HSync and VSync signals, the video comes from other devices on the
> main PCB. But that is a guess without seeing the machine/

My earlier google-fu was hampered by getting the IC number wrong and taking
a macro photo of it has shown my error, it's actually a Plessey MR9735
Teletext/Viewdata chip that 'drives a 625 line Colour Television Receiver to
display the contents of the Page Store'

http://www.datasheetarchive.com/dlmain/4d6e79fdc0fb675d8dd857876f8d6bdd195f5
7/M/MR9735

>> Hence the question - am I wasting my time without a schematic for this
>> analogue board?
> 
> You haven't told us what the problem is.

http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelAnalogueBoard2.jpg

Before I replaced the failed potentiometer (new one seen top left) the
display looked like its horizonal hold had gone so I reasoned that's what
the pot controlled. I can *nearly* get a steady picture but the brightness
is out as well, despite there being working pots for that and contrast. The
brightness seemed more constant before I replaced the radial cap with the
PET one which is why I wondered if the choice was wrong.
 
> Do you get anything on the screen? Is the CRT heater glowing? Have you
> measured the CRT pin voltages?

There's a recognisable picture, yes.
 
> I can see one IC on that 'analogue board'. Looks to have metal heatsink
> tabs so I am going to make a wild guess that it's a TDA1170 vertical
> deflection IC Are there any other ICs on the board? My guess is that
> the 'analogue board' could be reverse-engineered without too much
> work.

It is indeed a TDA1170, there's also a TDA1180P.

Here's the machine in all its glory:
http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutel01.jpg

Board:
http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelBoard.jpg

Cheers!

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Ed Sharpe

> I wonder if the pdp-11 was just called pdp-11 at t that point or was a
> pdp-11/20 like we have

Others have better info on this than me...

> at this time point they got their PDP 11 what did it say on the front
> panel I wonder?

I'm going to _guess_ that it was the earlier caption; I definitely recall
reading somewhere (maybe that history thing I already provided a link to)
that when the PDP-11/20 first arrived, DEC didn't have a disk drive for it,
and so it sat in a corner for some months (running some chess problem) until
the disk arrived. So that argues that it was a very early production machine.

Noel

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[COURYHOUSE]

In a message dated 10/31/2016 12:36:35 P.M. US Mountain Standard Tim,  
isk...@uw.edu writes:
On Mon,  Oct 31, 2016 at 12:29 PM,  wrote:

>
>  ...
> I  wonder  if the  pdp-11 was  just   called   pdp-11 at t that point or
> was   a   pdp-11/20  like we  have..
> I know they are essentially  the  same   at this  time  point they  got
>  their  PDP 11  what  did it say on the front  panel  I  wonder?
> (figuring all this stuff out  for titling up   the  cards in the 11/20
> display we are   planning.)
>

I think we had this discussion a while back, but I  know that my 11/20 just
says 'PDP-11' on the front panel.  I've also  seen them with '11/20', which
is almost certainly a later naming as the -11  line grew.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The  Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the  Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a  Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal  
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab  

University of Washington

There is an  old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."
 
 
 
ok just  re-clarifing so then w would be safe in reading the  unix 
history -   the 11 they had   since when they got it a  disk was not avail. 
(??? 
REALLY!!?? Hard to believe DEC  would  ship a  processor  without  disc  
i/o???  COMMENTS?  )   would   have  just  probably said  PDP-11
 
Ed#  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org/)  

 

RE: Analogue monitor board repair

[tony duell]

> My recent Executel addition has a 5" screen with associated analogue board
> that seems to be powered from a display chip I can't find any info on, and

Well, it won't be _powered_ from that IC. My guess is that said IC provides
the HSync and VSync signals, the video comes from other devices on the
main PCB. But that is a guess without seeing the machine/

[...]

> I've also removed, checked and replaced out of spec capacitors, one of them
> was a 680nF 50V radial. I could only find a 63V PET version on cpc's website
> and did much reading on differing capacitor types, concluding that it SHOULD
> be OK.

I would be very surprised if that was not OK.

[...]

> Hence the question - am I wasting my time without a schematic for this
> analogue board?

You haven't told us what the problem is.

Do you get anything on the screen? Is the CRT heater glowing? Have you
measured the CRT pin voltages?

I can see one IC on that 'analogue board'. Looks to have metal heatsink 
tabs so I am going to make a wild guess that it's a TDA1170 vertical 
deflection IC Are there any other ICs on the board? My guess is that
the 'analogue board' could be reverse-engineered without too much
work.

Can you provide a clear picture of the component side of the
board with nothing else in the way?

-tony

Analogue monitor board repair

[Adrian Graham]

Folks,

I think I know the answer to this before I even ask, and that answer will be
'got a schematic' to which the answer's 'no and I doubt one exists any more'
but...

My recent Executel addition has a 5" screen with associated analogue board
that seems to be powered from a display chip I can't find any info on, and
at least one of the adjustment potentiometers has suffered metal fatigue and
broken:

http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelScreenPot.jpg
http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelAnalogueBoard.jpg
http://www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk/STCExecutelDisplayChip.jpg

I've replaced it with a seemingly common 10K modern part that I had in my
spares box but it's unknown whether the display worked at all prior to it
being put in very damp storage, also the rating of the failed pot isn't
known but the capacitor next to it is 50V.

I've also removed, checked and replaced out of spec capacitors, one of them
was a 680nF 50V radial. I could only find a 63V PET version on cpc's website
and did much reading on differing capacitor types, concluding that it SHOULD
be OK.

Power supply is known good because it's one of my working ones, the original
is still dead.

Hence the question - am I wasting my time without a schematic for this
analogue board?

Cheers!

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[Ethan Dicks]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 3:36 PM, Ian S. King  wrote:
> I think we had this discussion a while back, but I know that my 11/20 just
> says 'PDP-11' on the front panel.  I've also seen them with '11/20', which
> is almost certainly a later naming as the -11 line grew.

Yes.  Mine says "11/20" and has some later-rev CPU boards (-YA) that I
think date to 1972.

-ethan

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[Ian S. King]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 12:29 PM,  wrote:

>
> ...
> I  wonder  if the  pdp-11 was  just  called   pdp-11 at t that point or
> was   a  pdp-11/20  like we  have..
> I know they are essentially the  same   at this  time  point they  got
> their  PDP 11  what  did it say on the front  panel  I wonder?
> (figuring all this stuff out  for titling up  the  cards in the 11/20
> display we are  planning.)
>

I think we had this discussion a while back, but I know that my 11/20 just
says 'PDP-11' on the front panel.  I've also seen them with '11/20', which
is almost certainly a later naming as the -11 line grew.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[COURYHOUSE]

In a message dated 10/31/2016 6:36:17 A.M. US Mountain Standard Time,  
j...@mercury.lcs.mit.edu writes:

> From: Ed Sharpe

> was Unix or C the one  developed on the 11/20?

Both. Unix Version 1 was written in PDP-11  assembler, for the -11/20;
although that was a re-write of an earlier  version written in PDP-7
assembler. C was developed from B in good part  because the word address 
model
of B (inherited from its ancestor BCPL)  wasn't a good match for the 
PDP-11's
byte addressing model. More  here:

https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/hist.html
https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html

>  From: Christian Corti

> I think the IP stack needs  separate I/D and more memory

I read that the networking code in 2.x  uses Supervisor mode (apparently it
needed more address space than was  available with only kernel, even with
split I/D).

Noel
 
Great History Noel! Many Thanks!
...
I  wonder  if the  pdp-11 was  just  called   pdp-11 at t that point or  
was   a  pdp-11/20  like we  have..
I know they are essentially the  same   at this  time  point they  got 
their  PDP 11  what  did it say on the front  panel  I wonder?
(figuring all this stuff out  for titling up  the  cards in the 11/20 
display we are  planning.)
 
thanks Ed Sharpe  _www.smecc.org_ (http://www.smecc.org)  
 

Re: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 31, 2016, at 2:58 PM, jim stephens  wrote:
> 
> If you cared about not erasing the drive manufacture's data on sealed media 
> Winchester and the like you have to avoid any writes to cylinder 0 at all.
> 
> The drive formatting software could read that cylinder track 0 for a defect 
> map.  Nothing to stop you from overwriting it, but you would then need to do 
> a local media certification that is more complicated than just formatting the 
> drive, and mapping out defective tracks / sectors.
> 
> I never worked with a system that had a controller or software that could 
> read the defect track, so don't know how that was used.  Later drives with 
> more intelligence in the drive are another matter, but in those cases, the 
> hiding of the defect data can be a task assigned to that processor, and don't 
> need magic handling of the addressing.

I haven't seen drives that put the defect data on track 0.  DEC put it at the 
very end of the drive (see DEC Std 144).  And as I recall, CDC did likewise in 
the 844 drives (RP04 lookalikes).  As for software using that data, RSTS 
certainly did.

paul

Re: Altair, IMSAI, SWTPC, etc. for sale in Philly

[Mark G Thomas]

Hi All,

I had the pleasure of visiting Rick yesterday. Please see below 
additional information about remaining items, with links to photos.
Please contact Rick directly if interested.

Original posting here:
On Tue, Oct 18, 2016 at 08:44:39AM +, steven stengel wrote:
> ---
> *  Contact Rick below if interested.  *
> ---
> Name: Rick Bunker
> Contact: r...@bunker.us
> Location: Jenkintown, PA    
> I have a computer collection that I have to sell. My wife and I 
> have separated, and the house is being sold, and I have no 
> place to keep the computers in my new apartment.
...
> Is there anybody in striking distance of Philadelphia suburbs, who 
> would consider buying and picking up this collection?
> ---

10/30/2016 Update:
--
> Hi,
>
> If you are getting this, it is because you have expressed interest in my
> old computers.  Here are a lot of pictures, which will be pretty
> self-explanatory I think.  I think I got everything other than a few spare
> 8-inch drives and some boxes of software and documentation.
> 
> The Altair 8800, a very early one, 4-slot motherboard, 1K ram, ceramic CPU,
> you will see: https://goo.gl/photos/3C1pzfwFoZ3koPgt9
> 
> IMSAI 8080 complete system, with monitor and drives 
> https://goo.gl/photos/KjeTN7FR4btah3QM9
>
> A KIM-1 (alas Commodore not MOS) https://goo.gl/photos/JWHn5b8Bvy2g2xNu7
>
> Original Apple ][, not a plus or c or anything.  With Disk ][ controller,
> and original color display.  https://goo.gl/photos/H47sr7oZy6MrCpzJ8
> 
> Original IBM PC, original bios, no hard drive - 2 floppies.  Aftermarket
> keyboard and monitor.  https://goo.gl/photos/nRE1aFrGvPKz2a647
> 
> A beautiful NorthStar Horizon, populated with all NorthStar boards, disk
> drives, memory, controller etc.  https://goo.gl/photos/B9tFYd1Nse2cHdBi8
>
> I paired it with with the LSi terminal. This was the desirable terminal 
> back then:  https://goo.gl/photos/jTkqP6jQhLDozF1HA
>
> A very first gen TRS-80 with all the matching peripherals
> https://goo.gl/photos/ct3ha8XMGEvLRaer6
>
> A KAYPRO luggable with wordperfect keyboard overlay 
> https://goo.gl/photos/moUCaEeMARf1T94k9
>
> A Cromemco, which was a pretty cool multi-user CP/M box that I programmed
> on for one of my earliest programming gigs, just a shell though.  But very
> robust shell: https://goo.gl/photos/aLCg2AjgbCreCVND9
>
> An NEC APC https://goo.gl/photos/YfDovSzaa73zCbVZ6 -- might not be that
> interesting, a little later, but boots and runs CP/M.  I worked on one
> which is why I grabbed it.
> 
> Google Glass, with packaging and stuff 
> https://goo.gl/photos/dDyDG3uWJpQ2wsnQA
>
> "Mario" chromebook.  First chromebook ever.  Works fine.  Given to me by
> GOOG (they were giving them to CIO's to gain feedback).
> https://goo.gl/photos/pycpJtijdLjsxmN29
>
> Some semi-random stuff.  https://goo.gl/photos/edhbov7U6ezcFG3X7
>
> SWTPC 6800 shell https://goo.gl/photos/33on8zYvGJZ6LvnMA
>
> Heathkit training system 6800 based https://goo.gl/photos/E5iFobDVtggqxshE9
>
> Apple ][c with printer, drive, mouse, monitor all matching
> https://goo.gl/photos/B1HjEKkjBhVUtWWT6
>
> Day one original iPhone. https://goo.gl/photos/2dpWEZKGmecU3RgQ8
> 
> TI 99 with a ton of program modules including BASIC
>  https://goo.gl/photos/XyNZRuSwwYHzJiLL7
>
> Let me know if/how you want to move forward.  Please feel free to share
> with anyone you think might be interested.
>
> Rick.
>
> -- 
> Rick Bunker
> r...@bunker.us

-- 
Mark G. Thomas (m...@misty.com), KC3DRE

Re: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's

[jim stephens]

On 10/30/2016 4:24 PM, Don North wrote:

On 10/30/2016 5:47 AM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Don North 

 > .. the hardware bootstrap reads track 1 sectors 1, 3, 5, 7

Ah, thanks for that. Starting to look at the code, I had missed the
interleave.

So does DEC do anything with track 0, or is it always just empty?

Noel

Track 0 is not used by standard DEC software, block zero of the device 
(boot block)
starts at track 1 sector 1. Track 0 is not even accessible thru the 
standard drivers.


Applies to both PDP-11 (eg, XXDP, RT11) and PDP-8 (OS8).

Maybe specific software that reads/writes disks in IBM exchange mode 
accesses

track 0, but I've never used such s/w and am only guessing
If you cared about not erasing the drive manufacture's data on sealed 
media Winchester and the like you have to avoid any writes to cylinder 0 
at all.


The drive formatting software could read that cylinder track 0 for a 
defect map.  Nothing to stop you from overwriting it, but you would then 
need to do a local media certification that is more complicated than 
just formatting the drive, and mapping out defective tracks / sectors.


I never worked with a system that had a controller or software that 
could read the defect track, so don't know how that was used.  Later 
drives with more intelligence in the drive are another matter, but in 
those cases, the hiding of the defect data can be a task assigned to 
that processor, and don't need magic handling of the addressing.

Thanks
Jim

Re: What hardware runs 2BSD (was Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System)

[emanuel stiebler]

On 2016-10-31 09:16, Ethan Dicks wrote:

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 11:11 AM, emanuel stiebler  wrote:

On 2016-10-31 08:48, Ethan Dicks wrote:


One of the great recent updates was backporting the MSCP driver from
2.11 to 2.9.  That opens up KDF11 MicroPDP-11s to running 2.9 with an
RQDX3.  Prior to that availability, one needed an RLV12 or other Qbus
disk controller for that platform.


I missed that :(


About 15 years ago, Jonathan Engdahl backported the MSCP driver to 2.9BSD...


more details?


First hit:

  http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/2_9bsd-mscp.htm

-ethan


I guess, I tripped over the word "recent" ;-)

THANKS!

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[Guy Sotomayor Jr]

> On Oct 30, 2016, at 3:09 PM, Mike Ross  wrote:
> 
> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:09 AM, william degnan  wrote:
>> *For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System*
>> 
>> *Ebay:* 272432268291
>> 
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/272432268291?
>> 
>> $1.
>> 
>> Bill
> 
> Unix? Probably a complete brain fart by me - but I thought Unix
> required a machine with separate I/D spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one
> of them?
> 
> If I'm wrong that will be of some assistance to me actually :-)

You can run v6, v7 on non-split I/D machines.  “Back in the day” we ran v6
on a freshly minted 11/34.  An 11/40 is no problem as I’ve run v7 on both my
11/34 & 11/40.  At this point I don’t recall running BSD 2.9 on anything.  I do
run BSD 2.11 on my 11/70 (but of course that’s a split I & D machine).

TTFN - Guy

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[Al Kossow]

V7 runs on an 11/34. It's pretty tight, but it will fit on two RK05s
as / and /usr. That was the first Unix machine I used at UW-Milw
circa 1978.

Mini-Unix (version of V6) ran on an 11 w/o an MMU

On 10/30/16 11:09 PM, Ian S. King wrote:

> I've run 6th Edition on an 11/34.
> 

What hardware runs 2BSD (was Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System)

[Ethan Dicks]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 11:11 AM, emanuel stiebler  wrote:
> On 2016-10-31 08:48, Ethan Dicks wrote:
>
>> One of the great recent updates was backporting the MSCP driver from
>> 2.11 to 2.9.  That opens up KDF11 MicroPDP-11s to running 2.9 with an
>> RQDX3.  Prior to that availability, one needed an RLV12 or other Qbus
>> disk controller for that platform.
>
> I missed that :(

About 15 years ago, Jonathan Engdahl backported the MSCP driver to 2.9BSD...

> more details?

First hit:

  http://home.windstream.net/engdahl/2_9bsd-mscp.htm

-ethan

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[emanuel stiebler]

On 2016-10-31 08:48, Ethan Dicks wrote:


One of the great recent updates was backporting the MSCP driver from
2.11 to 2.9.  That opens up KDF11 MicroPDP-11s to running 2.9 with an
RQDX3.  Prior to that availability, one needed an RLV12 or other Qbus
disk controller for that platform.


I missed that :(
more details?

Re: DEC bus transceivers

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Philipp Hachtmann

> that one posting sounded a lot like that, sorry.

OK.

> Do you have a source where there are still 30k chips sitting and
> waiting?

It was ~30K a couple of months ago. I checked about a week ago, and it was
down to ~26K (IIRC).

Although, like I said, I doubt they have all 26K in stock themselves; based on
comments they made when we bought a large group, I think that's the total
number available to them across a number of suppliers, in a network which
shares inventory information.

Noel

Re: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's

[Pete Turnbull]

On 31/10/2016 13:55, Noel Chiappa wrote:

I wonder why DEC did't use track 0. The thing is small enough (256KB in the
original single-density) that even 1% is a good chunk to throw away. Does
anyone know? (I had a look online, but couldn't turn anything up.)

If I had to _guess_, one possibility would be that track 0 is the innermost
track, where the media is moving the slowest, and as a result it's more
error-prone.


Except that track 0 is the outermost track, where the media is moving 
fastest, and therefore perhaps the least error-prone.  Except that for 
many drives, it's where the heads end up after a reset or recalibration, 
and on drives where the heads are (almost) always loaded, the one that 
will wear most.  I've seen floppies with a transparent ring near the 
outer edge, and I'm sure many other listmembers have too.


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Allison

> Later versions like 2.9 and V7 do want I

V7 is only distributed with pre-built loads for split I+D machines (so you
can't boot a V7 distribution tape on a non-split machine), but it includes
machine-language OS support files for non-split machines. (It's similar
enough to V6 that it makes sense that it runs on non-split machines.)

> From: William Degnan

> Given 128K core, wouldn't one be able to save the OS in core, no need
> to load what would need to "get started" from a diskpak?

To fork a process, Unix swaps the forking process out, and then fiddles
system tables so that one of the two copies (I forget which, without looking
at the code) becomes the child. This includes at startup, when the 'swapping'
process (0) splits and the child (1) is set up to run /etc/init. (I
found this out the hard way, when bringing up V6 under Ersatz-11. :-)

So Unix won't run without a swapping device.

Noel

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[Ethan Dicks]

On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 6:24 PM, allison  wrote:
> Depends on the version of unix.  V6 runs fine on a non-I machine
> as well 2.11.
>
> Later versions like 2.9 and V7 do want I

2.11 is later than 2.9.  It's "two point eleven" not "two point one pause one"

I beefed up my 11/24 30 years ago to run 2.9BSD (added KT24 and 2MB of
RAM - spent almost $1000).  I have few machines with Split I so I
mostly dabble in 2.9.  Good to know about V6 vs V7.  Haven't played
with those yet so I'll be sure to look into the differences before
getting started.

One of the great recent updates was backporting the MSCP driver from
2.11 to 2.9.  That opens up KDF11 MicroPDP-11s to running 2.9 with an
RQDX3.  Prior to that availability, one needed an RLV12 or other Qbus
disk controller for that platform.

-ethan

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 31, 2016, at 10:26 AM, william degnan  wrote:
> 
> Given 128K core, wouldn't one be able to save the OS in core, no need to
> load what would need to "get started" from a diskpak?  The data would be on
> the tape drives, and something on stand by to re-load the OS back into core.

Only if the OS implements the ability to resume from a power failure without 
reloading from disk or tape.  Few do.  Perhaps some flavors of RSX, I don't 
know.  RSTS V4A, when built with the power fail handling option, could do so.  
Later versions do not; they unconditionally reboot (from disk) at powerup.

paul

Re: DEC bus transceivers

[Philipp Hachtmann]

On 10/26/2016 04:54 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

> From: Philipp Hachtmann

> Very enlightening.
> You're hoarding interface ICs with commercial second thoughts

If you think either Guy, or Dave and I, expect to make much money selling the
QBUS/UNIBUS boards we are working on, you are seriously confused. None of us
are in this as a money-making exercise; there are easier ways to make a lot
more money.
It's not really what I expected. But that one posting sounded a lot like 
that, sorry.



And as to the hoarding, if you'd like to buy up a couple of thousand yourself,
from that miniscule stockpile of 30K units that Guy and I have left out there
for you all, please let me know, and I'll expidite over a name, phone number,
and email for you to contact.


What does that mean? Do you have a source where there are still 30k 
chips sitting and waiting? Sounds interesting!


Kind regards

Philipp



--

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[william degnan]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Pontus Pihlgren 
wrote:

> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:14:46PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote:
> >
> > Yes.  I want a blinkenlights web server :-)
> >
> > Of course these days RSX is also a possibility... it has an HTTPD in
> > addition to the basic TCP/IP stack I believe?
> >
>
> It sure does:
>
> http://magica.update.uu.se/
>
> /P
>

Given 128K core, wouldn't one be able to save the OS in core, no need to
load what would need to "get started" from a diskpak?  The data would be on
the tape drives, and something on stand by to re-load the OS back into core.

Bill

Re: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's

[Paul Koning]

> On Oct 31, 2016, at 9:55 AM, Noel Chiappa  wrote:
> 
>> From: Don North
> 
>> Track 0 is not used by standard DEC software
> 
> I wonder why DEC did't use track 0. The thing is small enough (256KB in the
> original single-density) that even 1% is a good chunk to throw away. Does
> anyone know? (I had a look online, but couldn't turn anything up.)
> 
> If I had to _guess_, one possibility would be that track 0 is the innermost
> track, where the media is moving the slowest, and as a result it's more
> error-prone. Another is that IBM used track 0 for something special, and DEC
> tried to conform with that. But those are pure guesses, I would love to know
> for sure.

I don't know either.  But for what it's worth, this odd addressing carries over 
to the RX50.  Not exactly, though.  Logical block 0 is the first sector on 
track 1, sectors are 2:1 interleaved, and there's a 3 sector skew from track to 
track.  The difference here is that track 0 does get used: it holds the last 10 
sectors of the logical address space.  In other words, physical track 0 follows 
physical track 79.

paul

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:14:46PM +1300, Mike Ross wrote:
> 
> Yes.  I want a blinkenlights web server :-)
> 
> Of course these days RSX is also a possibility... it has an HTTPD in
> addition to the basic TCP/IP stack I believe?
> 

It sure does:

http://magica.update.uu.se/

/P

PDP11GUI 1.48.5

[Jörg Hoppe]

Guys,

there's a new release PDP11GUI 1.48.5

Some enhancements:

1. "Disk Image Read/Write":
- Now compression of 2word patterns (32 bit patterns), did reduce 
download of a RSX-11 system disk from 40h to 6h.
- Fix for PDP-11/44 console firmware v 3.40: ignore "(Program)" output 
after driver start.


2. Terminal windows now beeps on char, necessary for some endless XXDP 
diags.


Download from https://github.com/j-hoppe/PDP11GUI/releases/tag/1.48.5

Web: http://retrocmp.com/tools/pdp11gui

Enjoy,

Joerg

Re: [TUHS] Booting PDP-11's from RX02's

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Don North

> Track 0 is not used by standard DEC software

I wonder why DEC did't use track 0. The thing is small enough (256KB in the
original single-density) that even 1% is a good chunk to throw away. Does
anyone know? (I had a look online, but couldn't turn anything up.)

If I had to _guess_, one possibility would be that track 0 is the innermost
track, where the media is moving the slowest, and as a result it's more
error-prone. Another is that IBM used track 0 for something special, and DEC
tried to conform with that. But those are pure guesses, I would love to know
for sure.

Noel

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Ed Sharpe

> was Unix or C the one developed on the 11/20?

Both. Unix Version 1 was written in PDP-11 assembler, for the -11/20;
although that was a re-write of an earlier version written in PDP-7
assembler. C was developed from B in good part because the word address model
of B (inherited from its ancestor BCPL) wasn't a good match for the PDP-11's
byte addressing model. More here:

  https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/hist.html
  https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/chist.html

> From: Christian Corti

> I think the IP stack needs separate I/D and more memory

I read that the networking code in 2.x uses Supervisor mode (apparently it
needed more address space than was available with only kernel, even with
split I/D).

Noel

Some pages from the 360-40 Development Manual, Hursley

[steven]

I've pdf'd half a dozen pages of the 360/40 development manual from IBM British 
Labs at
Hursley UK, early/mid 60s. I wish I had more but these only survived because 
dad used
to bring home binders with these single-sided pages for us kids to draw on, and 
my
parents kept them. They may not even be from the same document, but it's just 
for
interest's sake.

http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/misc/IBM_360-40_Development_Manual_fragment.pdf

Re: Tek 40xx computer users

[Mike Haas]

>From Pete



>>The ROM cart your going to want to get never left Tek,

Hah ha, made you say never

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0Bxd4qJinVzkNQVBDazFGdUZBLU0/view


>From Rick


>>Mike Hass wrote regarding

heh

>>Very cool stuff.   Let's see some pictures posted

https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/0Bxd4qJinVzkNV3c4RElNYVh1VTg

;)

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[Pete Turnbull]

On 30/10/2016 22:47, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove wrote:

On 30 October 2016 at 18:09, Mike Ross  wrote:

Unix? Probably a complete brain fart by me - but I thought Unix
required a machine with separate I/D spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one
of them?


V5 and V6 will run on an 11/40. I *think* but I might be wrong, that
V5 doesn't support split I/D.


Dunno, but I have V7 running on an 11/23 which I demo'd at the 2015 DEC 
Legacy event.  I've also had it running on an 11/34; neither of those 
have split I  I've never tried to rebuild it for my 11/40 but I know 
it's supported.


I have BSD 2.11 running on an 11/83 - that (and 2.10) does need split 
I - but as Lyle mentioned, 2.9 and earlier don't need it.


--
Pete
Pete Turnbull

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[Mike Ross]

On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Christian Gauger-Cosgrove
 wrote:
> On 30 October 2016 at 18:09, Mike Ross  wrote:
>> Unix? Probably a complete brain fart by me - but I thought Unix
>> required a machine with separate I/D spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one
>> of them?
>>
> V5 and V6 will run on an 11/40. I *think* but I might be wrong, that
> V5 doesn't support split I/D.
>
>
>> If I'm wrong that will be of some assistance to me actually :-)
>>
> Why, plannign to run an old UNIX on a blinkenlights '11? :P

Yes.  I want a blinkenlights web server :-)

Of course these days RSX is also a possibility... it has an HTTPD in
addition to the basic TCP/IP stack I believe?

Mike

http://www.corestore.org
'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[Christian Corti]

On Sun, 30 Oct 2016, allison wrote:

Later versions like 2.9 and V7 do want I


That's wrong. We run 2.9BSD on our 11/34, initially on two RL01 disks, 
now on one RL01 (as boot and swap device) and one RA80 (there is a 
third-party MSCP driver for 2.9BSD). I need to upgrade the machine with a 
cache and FPP board as time permits (I have the boards lying around 
somewhere). I could add a DEUNA, too, but it wouldn't work with 2.9BSD on 
this machine (I think the IP stack needs separate I/D and more memory).


Christian

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[allison]

On 10/30/2016 06:09 PM, Mike Ross wrote:
> On Mon, Oct 31, 2016 at 10:09 AM, william degnan  wrote:
>> *For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System*
>>
>> *Ebay:* 272432268291
>>
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/-/272432268291?
>>
>> $1.
>>
>> Bill
> Unix? Probably a complete brain fart by me - but I thought Unix
> required a machine with separate I/D spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one
> of them?
>
> If I'm wrong that will be of some assistance to me actually :-)

Depends on the version of unix.  V6 runs fine on a non-I machine
as well 2.11.

Later versions like 2.9 and V7 do want I


Allison


> Mike
>
> http://www.corestore.org
> 'No greater love hath a man than he lay down his life for his brother.
> Not for millions, not for glory, not for fame.
> For one person, in the dark, where no one will ever know or see.'
>

Re: Sage II

[Fred Cisin]

I have a disk labeled Sage II Cp/m 68 (000) Kermit.  That is what the OP

was looking for, for his newly acquired Sage II.

On Sun, 30 Oct 2016, william degnan wrote:

I don't have a HD drive attached to my imaging computer, which is the
original point I made when I first replied to your post, asking about the
format.  I was afraid I could not read the disk.

I also got last week a IBM PC 5170, if I could get it working,
it should be able to write the SAGE II floppies, right?

if it's a 96 tpi drive and you have a newer OS like DOS 6.2 running on it.


6.2x is my favorite version of DOS, "the first one where improving 
reliability was a fundamental intent", and 3.20 was the first one that 
consistently had 720K DOS format, however, 
since imaging software would most often be using INT13h, or even direct 
acccess of the FDC, ANY version of DOS should be OK.


Life is sometimes a little easier using a 720K 5.25" drive (such as 
Mitsubishi 4853, Shugart 465, Tandon TM100-4) instead of a 
1.2M 5.25" drive.
If the drive is running 300RPM, then the data transfer rate should be 
250K.
If the drive is running 360RPM (some 1.2M drives), then the data transfer 
rate should be 300K.
But correcting the data transfer rate is all the extra that is needed for 
using a 1.2M for "720K"/"quad density" formats

Re: Sage II

[william degnan]

On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:44 AM, emanuel stiebler  wrote:

> On 2016-10-30 06:56, william degnan wrote:
>
> I have a disk labeled Sage II Cp/m 68 (000) Kermit.  That is what the OP
>> was looking for, for his newly acquired Sage II.
>>
> Great!
>
> We were discussing how to
>> image theae disks, I don't have a 96tpi - capable drive set up on my
>> current disk imaging station otherwise I'd have simply uploaded an .IMD
>> file.  Short term he needs cp/m 68 from somewhere else.
>>
>
> If possible, just send me the .IMD file
>

I don't have a HD drive attached to my imaging computer, which is the
original point I made when I first replied to your post, asking about the
format.  I was afraid I could not read the disk.


>
> I assume OP'er has checked jim battle ' sage II website.
>>
>
> I didn't see it there.
>
> I also got last week a IBM PC 5170, if I could get it working,
> it should be able to write the SAGE II floppies, right?
>
>
if it's a 96 tpi drive and you have a newer OS like DOS 6.2 running on it.

Bill

Re: For sale 128K Core RAM Industrial PDP 11/40 Massbus System

[Ian S. King]

On Sun, Oct 30, 2016 at 9:50 PM,  wrote:

> was Unix or  C  the one developed on the 11/20?
> Ed#
>
>
> In a message dated 10/30/2016 6:15:32 P.M. US Mountain Standard Time,
> el...@pico-systems.com writes:
>
> >>
> >> Bill
> > Unix? Probably a complete brain  fart by me - but I thought Unix
> > required a machine with separate I/D  spaces and the 11/40 wasn't one
> > of them?
> >
> > If I'm wrong  that will be of some assistance to me actually  :-)
> >
>

I've run 6th Edition on an 11/34.

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."