DP 1000 and filing off IC identifiers? Why?

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Hi,


My apologies for cross-posting.  I’m putting this on a few of the forums


I have a third party TRS-80 Model 1 expansion unit that I used with my
System 80 when I first got disk drives.  I’ve decided I should add some
pics and info to the System 80 website as I know they were used here in New
Zealand with System 80’s and, also in the U.K. for the Video Genie.  A
modified expansion cable was needed to convert from the System 80 expansion
bus to the TRS-80 Model 1 bus on the unit but that was straightforward.



The interface is called a DP 1000 by General Northern Microcomputers Ltd.
It has no RAM, but contains a disk controller and printer port.  It was
designed for ‘80s Model 1s and compatibles that had 48K of RAM under the
keyboard, rather than requiring it in the expansion unit, as was the
standard configuration.  Many System 80s had their memory expanded under
the keyboard so it was ideal for these.  Mine was like this, and I found my
DP 1000 worked very well with it.



Before I put some info up, I’m wondering if anyone knows any more about
General Northern Microcomputers Ltd, the company that made the DP 1000?
I’m pretty sure it’s a U.K. company.


Also, most of the chips have their ID’s shaved off (see the circuit board
image)??  Why would they do this?  I can only assume it was to stop reverse
engineering?



Here are some pics:



http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/hardware_DP-1000-front-800.jpg

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/hardware_DP-1000-back-800.jpg

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/hardware_DP-1000-circuit-board-top-hi-res.jpg



Cheers



Terry

Re: Getting Sun Sparcstation 10 to recognize its graphics card

[systems_glitch via cctalk]

Bill,

Are you sure the SGI monitor will work with the Sun graphics adapter? Just
because the plug fits doesn't mean the monitors are compatible, when it
comes to 13W3. It may be just transferring control to the video console and
*appear* to be locking up, and you're not getting anything out of the
display as a result.

Do you get diagnostic LED patterns on the keyboard LEDs?

Thanks,
Jonathan

On Tue, Jan 9, 2018 at 4:18 PM, william degnan via cctech <
cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Working from this page to configure my sparcstation 10 after NVRAM
> replacement:
> http://www.obsolyte.com/sunFAQ/faq_nvram.html
>
> ...but curious is there an installation manual or whatever specific to the
> video card in my system, a TurboXGX with STP3010GPA chip
> http://vintagecomputer.net/sun/SparcStation-10/Sun_STP3010PGA_TURBOXGX.jpg
>
> I have Solaris 4 installed.  I am guessing around trying different things.
> With help I have the OS installed but so far I can't get the system to
> recognize the video card and Sun keyboard.  With these installed it freezes
> the system...so, I am using a serial terminal to interact with the system.
> The video display I have is an SGI GDM-20D11
>
> Eventually I'll poke through to the solution, this is my first Sun box, up
> to this point they were "too new" but I'd like to learn how to perform a
> system install.
>
> If I find the answers I am looking for I'll post here.
>
> Bill
>

Re: DL10 documentation

[Phil Budne via cctalk]

> Ah, right you are: I just assumed from the name (without checking!) that it
> was some kind of variant on the DN87 - which I guess it is, just a more major
> one than I thought! :-)

The later-day TOPS-10 front-end ecosystem which included the DN87 was
called "ANF-10" (*) and included both local (DL10/DTE) interfaced
systems as well a remote nodes (both 8's and 11's) connected via
(DDCMP) sync lines.

I'm pretty sure the ANF-10 software was modular, and that the
configured devices/drivers were determined by a compile time config
file.  The DNxx designations might have been more a matter of
supported configurations and catalog designations.  I hesitate to use
the term "off the shelf" since my usual way in to my cubicle on the
second floor of "MR2" at DEC Marlborugh was thru the third floor,
which was manufacturing, and you could see entire hardware
configurations set up for test before delivery, so EVERYTHING was hand
constructed, and I don't know where the group that boxed up a
separately purchased ANF10 node was located (in Marlborough, or
somewhere else), and it's entirely possible that each and every
front-end sold ran hand configured software.

from http://www.ultimate.com/phil/pdp10/10periphs

DAS78   IBM bisync support (up to 16 360, 370, and/or 2780's) (PDP-11 
via DL10)
DAS82   11/40 remote station via KG11(DQ11?) 9600 sync, CR11 300CPM 
CDR, LP11 250LPM LPT, 2xDH11 32 async lines (c.f. DN82)
DAS85   11/40 via DL10 upto 16 DQ11 sync lines at 9600 (max 50kb 
agregate) c.f. DN85
...
DC44TYPESET-10 front end (PDP-11) for PTR (PA611R), PTP (PA611P), CAT? 
photocomposition machine (LPC11)
DC68A   PDP-8(/I) 680(/I) communications system (via DA10): PDP-8/I-D w/ 4K 
memory
DC71ANF10 PDP-8/I remote station: CTY, DP01 sync, CR08 CDR, LP08 140LPM 
64-char LPT, upto 16xDC02F async lines
DC72A   ANF10 PDP-8/E remote station: DP8E sync, CDR, 170LPM 96-char LPT, 
upto 2xDC72L
DC72B   ANF10 PDP-8/E remote station: DP8E sync, CDR, 240LPM 64-char LPT, 
upto 2xDC72L
DC72C   ANF10 PDP-8/E remote station: DP8E sync, CDR,  53LPM 64-char LPT, 
upto 2xDC72L
DC72L   8 FDX async lines on DC72A/B/C
DC75sync (PDP-11/15 & DS11's via DL10) DN8x code base! (cf DAS85?)
DC76communications (PDP-11/40 via DL10) upto 128 async lines 
(50-9600bps)
DC76F   16 async lines on DC76 (DH11 + DM11?)
...
DN20sync/async (11/34 via DTE) front end [ie; DECnet MCB] 
(KMC11,DUP11,DMC11,DZ11,LP20,!KG11)
DN200   ANF10 remote station (11/34) (Updated DN82) *or* DECnet remote 
station
DN22ANF10 remote station (11/04) (DMC11,DZ11,!KG11) w/ MOP ROM
DN61TOPS-10 Bisync; PDP-11/40 via DL10; 12 2780/3780 RJE stations or 
emulated 2780/3780 RJE stations
DN61S   TOPS-10 Bisync; PDP-11/40 via DTE; 2780/3780 RJE stations or 
emulated 2780/3780 RJE stations
DN62DN61 with HASP support
DN62S   DN62 via DTE
DN64TOPS-20 Bisync; PDP-11/34 via DTE; 2780/3780 RJE stations or 
emulated 2780/3780 RJE stations
DN65DN64 with HASP support
DN71remote station (PDP-8/I) (c.f. DC71?)
DN72remote station (PDP-8/E) (c.f. DC72?)
DN80ANF10 remote station (11/40) w/ DQ11; CDR, LPT, CTY
DN81ANF10 remote station (11/40) w/ DQ11; 32 TTYs
DN82ANF10 remote station (11/40) w/ DQ11; 32 TTYs, CDR, LPT, CTY (cf 
DAS82)
DN85ANF10 sync (11/40 via DL10) (cf DAS85?)
DN87ANF10 sync/async (11/40 via DL10) front end 
DN87S   ANF10 sync/async (11/40 via DTE) front end 
(DL11,DH11,DM11,DN11,DQ11)
DN92ANF10 remote station (PDP-8/A); (Updated DC72)

My recall is that (some of) the front end software started in a group
that did custom engineering, and was later productized, and that the
designations "DAS" were from the former, and "DN" were the latter.

I'm not sure where the "DC" designations fall, my notes (below)
indicate the DC75 was built from the same code base as DN8x, and
possibly based on DAS85 (unclear if this refers to code or just
hardware), or how, or whether a DC68 differs from a "680".

ISTR the hardware in the 680 configuration used "bit-banging" to
implement async lines!!

I think Tim Litt could speak more authoritatively about ALL this, and
ISTR I've seen him speak up on the SIMH list, if not here.  Perhaps
writing these words will summon him?

> I wonder why DEC sold MIT a KL with a DL10 for the second PDP-11 front end?
> (The Console-11 was connected via a DTE.) Maybe it was so early in the
> product run that the DN87S didn't exist yet?

Could very well be.  MC was DEFINITELY an early system (see below).
ISTR the DTE was a DMA interface, not memory mapping like the DL10, so
that might have factored in as well.  For all I know at the point MC
was sold, noone had ever connected more than one 11 to a DTE, or more
than one DTE to a KL.

I collected the following KL serial numbers in the 80's
(when I worked for DEC in Marlborough and was an ITS tourist):

1026 one half of 

Getting Sun Sparcstation 10 to recognize its graphics card

[william degnan via cctalk]

Working from this page to configure my sparcstation 10 after NVRAM
replacement:
http://www.obsolyte.com/sunFAQ/faq_nvram.html

...but curious is there an installation manual or whatever specific to the
video card in my system, a TurboXGX with STP3010GPA chip
http://vintagecomputer.net/sun/SparcStation-10/Sun_STP3010PGA_TURBOXGX.jpg

I have Solaris 4 installed.  I am guessing around trying different things.
With help I have the OS installed but so far I can't get the system to
recognize the video card and Sun keyboard.  With these installed it freezes
the system...so, I am using a serial terminal to interact with the system.
The video display I have is an SGI GDM-20D11

Eventually I'll poke through to the solution, this is my first Sun box, up
to this point they were "too new" but I'd like to learn how to perform a
system install.

If I find the answers I am looking for I'll post here.

Bill

Re: DL10 documentation

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Phil Budne

> simulating the DL10 so you can run TVs would REALLY be bringing back a
> lost artifact!!

The Knight TV's were connected through the Rubin 10-11 interface, not a DL10.

> I'm pretty sure DN87S was a DN87 front end attached to a (KL) DTE
> (Ten/Eleven) interface instead of a DL10 (or POSSIBLY visa versa).

Ah, right you are: I just assumed from the name (without checking!) that it
was some kind of variant on the DN87 - which I guess it is, just a more major
one than I thought! :-)

I wonder why DEC sold MIT a KL with a DL10 for the second PDP-11 front end?
(The Console-11 was connected via a DTE.) Maybe it was so early in the
product run that the DN87S didn't exist yet?

Noel

Re: DL10 documentation

[Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk]

Phil Budne wrote:
> ITS speaks TCP (over an IMP interface, which is simulated in KLH10),
> so it hardly seems worth jumping thru hoops to get hardwired dumb
> terminals.

Right, SUPDUP is really the best way to talk to ITS.  But I'm can't set
Richard's priorities.  Maybe I can pitch in myself.

Chaosnet is another option.

> Now, simulating the DL10 so you can run TVs would REALLY be bringing
> back a lost artifact!!

It's on the radar.  Need more volunteers.

I have extracted the TV font, so you can use that with your favourite
terminal emulator.

Re: DL10 documentation

[Phil Budne via cctalk]

I wrote:
> Now, simulating the DL10 so you can run TVs would REALLY be bringing
> back a lost artifact!!

https://github.com/PDP-10/its/issues/279
says:

 larsbrinkhoff commented on Mar 31, 2017

 I think the number of PDP-11s connected were limited by the address space of 
the Rubin IO-11 interface. It occupied one of AI's four mobies. One moby can 
address 16 64k spaces, but somehow I recall seeing the number 8 as the maximum.

Re: DL10 documentation

[Phil Budne via cctalk]

Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Richard has DE10 working already, but that's not supported by ITS.
> Adding that support is not out of the question, but we want to give the
> DL10/DC76 a go.

ITS speaks TCP (over an IMP interface, which is simulated in KLH10),
so it hardly seems worth jumping thru hoops to get hardwired dumb
terminals.

Now, simulating the DL10 so you can run TVs would REALLY be bringing
back a lost artifact!!

> > The DL10 was used in two DEC system products, the DC76 Asynchronous
> > Communication System, and the DN87 and DN87S Universal Communication System
> > Front Ends. I couldn't find any documentation on the former

I'm pretty sure DN87S was a DN87 front end attached to a (KL) DTE
(Ten/Eleven) interface instead of a DL10 (or POSSIBLY visa versa).

phil

BUDD@AI
KL1026::[31,5732]
BUDNE@KL2137 & MRFORT

Re: DL10 documentation

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Lars Brinkhoff

> Specifically, the DC76 supported by ITS.

>> The DL10 was used in two DEC system products, the DC76 Asynchronous
>> Communication System, and the DN87 and DN87S Universal Communication
>> System Front Ends. I couldn't find any documentation on the former

> Ouch, it's the former we want.

Eh, no problem. The DL10 part is the same, and the PDP-11 devices in the DC76
were almost certainly standard DEC PDP-11 stuff.

ITS ran its own code in the PDP-11 attached to the DL10, anyway - looking at
IOELEV (in the MX-DL section), it only supported DL11's and DH11's. Those are
very well documented.

Noel

Re: DL10 documentation

[Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk]

I wrote:
>> Richard Cornwell wants to implement DL10 for his KA10/KI10 simulator,
>> but he doesn't have any documentation for it.  Any leads?

Johnny Eriksson wrote:
> First question is: since the DL10 is a DMA device for a handful of
> PDP11s, what is intended at the other (unibus) end of it?
> If the idea is to get more terminal lines, maybe a DC10 scanner would
> be an easier starting point.

Right, it's for terminals.  Specifically, the DC76 supported by ITS.
ITS doesn't have many options for terminal scanners.  TK10 anyone?
Morton box?  Knight kludge?

Richard has DE10 working already, but that's not supported by ITS.
Adding that support is not out of the question, but we want to give the
DL10/DC76 a go.

Noel Chiappa wrote:
> http://bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-10-XSRMA-A-D%20DECsystem10%20System%20Reference%20Manual.pdf
> has a definition for the -10 side of the interface on pages C-21 and
> following (page 365 of the PDF). It just specifies the I/O instructions and
> bits, there's no description of how it works.

Thanks!

> The DL10 was used in two DEC system products, the DC76 Asynchronous
> Communication System, and the DN87 and DN87S Universal Communication System
> Front Ends. I couldn't find any documentation on the former

Ouch, it's the former we want.

Re: DEC quad board rack

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Pontus Pihlgren

> Thank you for sharing Noel.

Well, I thought people might find it useful. Over time,I've made a variety of
shelf designs to hold my boards, searching for something that worked really
well, and I liked this one so much I thought it was worth passing it on.

In fact, I liked it so much that I took the dual rack (next to it in the
picture) which held boards horizontally, and re-built it into one that holds
them vertically, like the quad rack. For the duals, the shelf-shelf spacing
(i.e.  bottom of one, to the top of the next) is 5" (i.e. the repeat distance
is 5-3/4", when using 3/4" planks).


> In retrospect are there any measurements you would do differently if you
> did it again?

Nope. I made another quad rack for my workshop upstairs, and built an exact
duplicate of the first one (in the picture). And I made another vertical-type
dual rack, also for upstairs.

About the only thing I'd have changed (had I thought of it in time) was to
make that second dual rack a mixture of dual and quad shelves (which you can
trivially do in this design, unlike the horizontal-format one) as I need more
quad shelves, and have an excess of dual shelves. Oh well!

> E.g. Have you found any boards that need higher clearance to the next?

Well... There are some DEC boards which have a Berg connector on the top edge,
and ones which use the later Berg (the ones with the little latch handles)
sometimes place them too close to the edge.

One example of this is the M7800 (DL11); they _just_ fit in a shelf with the
'proper' 10-1/4" spacing, but I have a couple shelves where, due to variation,
the shelf-shelf distance is only 10-1/8", and M7800's won't go into them. The
M7856 (DL11-W) is the same.

For the dual shelves, the E-Rev of the M5904 (MASSBUS transceiver) places the
top of the latches about 1mm from the edge of the board. (The F Rev has been
re-laid out, to move the connector a but further in.) I guess it would be
possible with very careful cutting to space shelves to hold that, but I
elected not to; the tolerances are so slight, a bit too far, and boards will
come out of slots. And some off-brand QBUS memory puts a resistor a little
over 1mm from the card edge, and those also won't go.

 Noel

Re: HP 9816 logging and skyline software -- any interest?

[Cliff Miller via cctalk]

Dave - I have a 9817 I’m trying to get working.  I have the display working and 
a keyboard but no HIL cable yet.  No mass storage, either so I’m looking for a 
9121 or similar HP-IB drive.  I’d be happy to assume responsibility for the 
software you have / pay for shipping, etc.
The 9817 identifies as a 9816 on the ROM splash screen but I’m speculating it 
will run.  I have 1 meg of RAM available and the composite video.
- Cliff Miller, Evans, GA

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 7, 2018, at 10:27 PM, Dave via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> Hi Folks!
> I have documentation for some forestry software, that came with my HP9816 
> machines.  I am not sure, but I may have a tape or disk to go with it.
> It's called "MSAP", for Multispan Skyline Analysis Program, and appears to be 
> a successor to the software documented in the following links:
> http://bit.ly/2EjAC0N
> http://bit.ly/2CFp2wk
> 
> I have no use for it, but it seems like it may be of historical value.  Would 
> anyone here be interested in it?
> dave

Re: DL10 documentation

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Lars Brinkhoff

> Richard Cornwell wants to implement DL10 for his KA10/KI10 simulator,
> but he doesn't have any documentation for it.  Any leads?

Well The "decsystem10 System Reference Manual (DEC-10-XSRMA-A-D) -
available online:

  
http://bitsavers.org/www.computer.museum.uq.edu.au/pdf/DEC-10-XSRMA-A-D%20DECsystem10%20System%20Reference%20Manual.pdf

has a definition for the -10 side of the interface on pages C-21 and
following (page 365 of the PDF). It just specifies the I/O instructions and
bits, there's no description of how it works.

Still, that will help understand code that uses it; the complete ITS code is
available.

I couldn't find anything on the PDP-11 side of the interface; ITS' IOELEV >
does define a "DLXCSR", and the bits in it, but ... it seems to be a memory
location, not a register?


The DL10 was used in two DEC system products, the DC76 Asynchronous
Communication System, and the DN87 and DN87S Universal Communication System
Front Ends. I couldn't find any documentation on the former, but complete
prints for the latter are available:

  
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/periph/MP00068_DN87_Universal_Comm_System_Front_End_Jan76.pdf
  
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/periph/MP00109_DN87S_Universal_Comm_System_Front_End_Sep78.pdf

It includes a complete set of prints for the DL10. From this, and also from:

  http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/bb-d549g-sb/01/boot11.mem.html

it appears that the PDP-11's connected to the DL10 have a special console
which has a cable which goes to the DL10 which allows the PDP-10 to start and
stop the PDP-11; the PDP-11's UNIBUS runs into the DL10 and is plugged into
the DL10.


Anyway, it's going to be some hard work to create a DL10 programming manual
from those dribs and drabs, but there is enough info there that it can be
done.

Noel

Re: DL10 documentation

[Johnny Eriksson via cctalk]

Lars Brinkhoff  wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> Richard Cornwell wants to implement DL10 for his KA10/KI10 simulator,
> but he doesn't have any documentation for it.  Any leads?

First question is: since the DL10 is a DMA device for a handful of PDP11s,
what is intended at the other (unibus) end of it?

I have found that

  
http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp10/periph/MP00068_DN87_Universal_Comm_System_Front_End_Jan76.pdf

contains the engineering drawings for the DL10.

Also, the tops-10 source file D85INT.MAC (from the unsmon directory)
contains the driver for it.

If the idea is to get more terminal lines, maybe a DC10 scanner would
be an easier starting point.

--Johnny

DL10 documentation

[Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk]

Hello,

Richard Cornwell wants to implement DL10 for his KA10/KI10 simulator,
but he doesn't have any documentation for it.  Any leads?

Re: DEC quad board rack

[Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk]

On Mon, Jan 01, 2018 at 01:58:57PM -0500, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote:
> 
> No, as long as you have either a radial arm saw (best), or a table saw
> (preferably with a 'sled' - if you don't have one, probably worth making one)
> to cut all the slots.
> 
> Like I said, if you want a drawing, let me know. A few data bits: the slot
> pitch (slot center to slot center distance) is 5/8"; I used 1/8" for the depth
> of the bottom slot (just enough to hold it in place), and 3/16" for the top
> (some extra, to allow for board size variation). The shelf-shelf spacing (i.e.
> bottom of one, to the top of the next) is 10-1/4" (i.e. the repeat distance is
> 11", when using 3/4" boards).
> 

Thank you for sharing Noel.

I'm going to do the same sooner or later. In retrospect are there any 
measurements you would do differently if you did it again?

E.g. Have you found any boards that need higher clearance to the next?

Thank you,
Pontus.