Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 02/01/2018 10:25 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:


> 50-pin edge       37-pin Dsub        34-pin edge
> ---       ---        ---
> 1             20                    GND
> 2             2                       (TG43)
> 9             25                    GND
> 10                7                     N/C
> 11                37                    GND
> 12                19                    34    (Ready)
> 13                36                    GND
> 14                18                    32    (Side1)
> 17                28                    GND
> 18                10                    16    (Motor ON/Load)
> 19                24                    GND
> 20                6                     8    (Index)
> 21                27                    GND
> 22                9                     N/C
> 25                26                    GND
> 26                8                     12    (DS1->DS0)
> 33                29                    GND
> 34                11                    18    (Direction)
> 35                30                    GND
> 36                12                    20    (Step)
> 37                31                    GND
> 38                13                    22    (Write Data)
> 39                32                    GND
> 40                14                    24    (Write Gate)
> 41                33                    GND
> 42                15                    26    (Track 0)
> 43                34                    GND
> 44                16                    28    (Write Protect)
> 45                35                    GND
> 46                17                    30    (Read Data)

There's also a wiring list in the CompatiCard IV manual, from what, 20
years ago and a description of the cable in the 22Disk manual from (has
it been that long?) 30 years ago.

Nihil sub sole novum.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

plc companies aka industrial companies do these weird things to force u to
buy their hardware and be locked in..

ge faunic had their workmaster systems for interfacing into series one six
90/ series systems ect u could get away with a 5155 or a p70 as those were
what the workmaster 1 and 2 were built from but in black and cost 12-20k
new with software and interface card and or searial cable

as for the weird plc that did the floppies with that spacing do you
remember the manufacture sounds like something siemens would do god their
products suck they seem to be really good at going out buying good hardware
software and making them disappear

On Fri, Feb 2, 2018 at 12:17 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/01/2018 09:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>
> > When I first got a Micropolis drive, I found "100tpi" hard to believe.
> > But, interchange attempts showed that by the inner tracks, it was not
> > 96tpi, and nor a multiple of 48tpi.
> > My homemade developer, and my patience to keep trying weren't good
> > enough to be able to successfully do other than take their word for how
> > many.
> > (Seeing the difference between 96tpi and 100tpi should be easier than
> > telling the difference between Leica thread (39mm x 26 Whitworth threads
> > per inch) V the early Russian Fed (39mm x 1.0m DIN thread)
> > some of the earliest Canon imitations (39mm x 24tpi thread))
>
> Other than a brief encounter with an SA400 (single-sided 48 tpi. 35
> cylinders), the Micropolis 100 tpi drives were my first real run in with
> 5.25" drives.
>
> Great drives, heavy, built like a tank--and expensive.  I've got a
> late-model 96 tpi Micropolis that illustrates their NIH mindset--the PCB
>  pivots as you close the door latch.  Still used the precision-ground
> leadscrew positioner.  Buffered seek; something like 4 steps per
> cylinder, if you can believe it.
>
> ISTR that if you stick a formatted 100 tpi ddisk in a 96 tpi drive and
> do a read ID, the first cylinder reads as 6.  That is, the 100 tpi disk
> is offset a bit more toward the outside of the disk.  You can read a few
> cylinders after that, before the misregistration causes things to get
> weird.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Josh Dersch via cctalk]

On 2/1/2018 2:52 PM, Ali wrote:


This is true.  I have the pinouts at home if anyone wants them, I can
post them when I get home from work.

Josh,

That would be great. Thanks.

-Ali


.



Here's what I have, from notes I took about 10 years ago when I built a 
cable after beeping things out.  The YE-DATA drive itself uses the 
standard Shugart interface, IIRC. The below table lists the 50-pin edge 
connector pins of interest, the 37-pin d-sub on the back of the drive 
unit, and the 34-pin PC floppy cable.  I make no guarantees, but it 
worked for me:


50-pin edge       37-pin Dsub        34-pin edge
---       ---        ---
1             20                    GND
2             2                       (TG43)
9             25                    GND
10                7                     N/C
11                37                    GND
12                19                    34    (Ready)
13                36                    GND
14                18                    32    (Side1)
17                28                    GND
18                10                    16    (Motor ON/Load)
19                24                    GND
20                6                     8    (Index)
21                27                    GND
22                9                     N/C
25                26                    GND
26                8                     12    (DS1->DS0)
33                29                    GND
34                11                    18    (Direction)
35                30                    GND
36                12                    20    (Step)
37                31                    GND
38                13                    22    (Write Data)
39                32                    GND
40                14                    24    (Write Gate)
41                33                    GND
42                15                    26    (Track 0)
43                34                    GND
44                16                    28    (Write Protect)
45                35                    GND
46                17                    30    (Read Data)

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 02/01/2018 09:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> When I first got a Micropolis drive, I found "100tpi" hard to believe.
> But, interchange attempts showed that by the inner tracks, it was not
> 96tpi, and nor a multiple of 48tpi.
> My homemade developer, and my patience to keep trying weren't good
> enough to be able to successfully do other than take their word for how
> many.
> (Seeing the difference between 96tpi and 100tpi should be easier than
> telling the difference between Leica thread (39mm x 26 Whitworth threads
> per inch) V the early Russian Fed (39mm x 1.0m DIN thread)
> some of the earliest Canon imitations (39mm x 24tpi thread))

Other than a brief encounter with an SA400 (single-sided 48 tpi. 35
cylinders), the Micropolis 100 tpi drives were my first real run in with
5.25" drives.

Great drives, heavy, built like a tank--and expensive.  I've got a
late-model 96 tpi Micropolis that illustrates their NIH mindset--the PCB
 pivots as you close the door latch.  Still used the precision-ground
leadscrew positioner.  Buffered seek; something like 4 steps per
cylinder, if you can believe it.

ISTR that if you stick a formatted 100 tpi ddisk in a 96 tpi drive and
do a read ID, the first cylinder reads as 6.  That is, the 100 tpi disk
is offset a bit more toward the outside of the disk.  You can read a few
cylinders after that, before the misregistration causes things to get weird.

--Chuck

Re: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?

[Pete Lancashire via cctalk]

I like the idea of creating an image before something could screwup what is
on the disk.

dd is your friend

-pete

On Feb 1, 2018 7:28 PM, "Tapley, Mark via cctech" 
wrote:

> On Feb 1, 2018, at 2:32 PM, et...@757.org wrote:
>
> >>  Is there a standard procedure for recovering lost passwords for
> these systems, or for resetting passwords? I do have physical access to the
> machine; it’s possible I can find an AIX install disk but it’s *highly*
> desirable to preserve the contents of the existing hard drive.
> >
> > Image the hard drive off to a raw file using a linux host with a SCSI
> HBA?
> >
> > Once that is done, it might be possible to run a hex editor against the
> hard drive (one that doesn't copy the contents into RAM) and then search
> for the password file. From there you can copy the des hash and use rainbow
> tables / wordfiles to crack it or replace it with a known DES hash?
> >
> > This is how I used to reset my root password on my Lucent Audix UNIX
> host.
> >
> > YMMV, others might have more insight.
>
> Update, I did locate a CD saying “AIX V4.2.1 for 5765-C34” and this URL:
>
> http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=isg3T1000366
>
> which may be what I need. I’ll try this ASAP, hopefully tomorrow, and
> report what happens.
>
> Thanks, and any more ideas welcome!
>

Re: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?

[r.stricklin via cctalk]

On Feb 1, 2018, at 7:28 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctech wrote:

>> Image the hard drive off to a raw file using a linux host with a SCSI HBA?
>> 
>> Once that is done, it might be possible to run a hex editor against the hard 
>> drive (one that doesn't copy the contents into RAM) and then search for the 
>> password file. From there you can copy the des hash and use rainbow tables / 
>> wordfiles to crack it or replace it with a known DES hash?

You don't need to do any of these things.

> Update, I did locate a CD saying “AIX V4.2.1 for 5765-C34” and this URL:

All you need is this disk. You can boot it, and use it to start a maintenance 
shell, from which you can mount the root filesystem and edit the password 
file(s) directly. The procedure you found will get you there, easily.

ok
bear.


-- 
until further notice

Re: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 02/01/2018 01:28 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctech wrote:
Is there a standard procedure for recovering lost passwords for these 
systems, or for resetting passwords? I do have physical access to the 
machine; it’s possible I can find an AIX install disk but it’s 
*highly* desirable to preserve the contents of the existing hard drive.


According to an AIX SME (currently working for IBM), yes, this is a 
standard and apparently relatively easy procedure.


The first Google hit (he was being lazy) was this:

http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=isg3T1000366

He says it's fairly straight forward.

He did pass along the following pro tip:  "…that was a pci based 
system...so he should follow the instructions section for that in the kB 
link I sent…"


P.S.  Please don't reply to / hijack an existing thread for a new topic.



--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?

[Tapley, Mark via cctalk]

All,
I’m trying to resurrect an AIX workstation that may well contain useful 
information for the NASA IMAGE spacecraft. 
The system is an IBM RiscSystem/6000 43P-140 according to the badge on 
the front (which I think is reasonably accurate).
It’s running a version of AIX from ~1997 or 1998. It does boot to the 
GUI login prompt.

Is there a standard procedure for recovering lost passwords for these 
systems, or for resetting passwords? I do have physical access to the machine; 
it’s possible I can find an AIX install disk but it’s *highly* desirable to 
preserve the contents of the existing hard drive.

Apologies in advance if this is posted somewhere obvious, I have not 
done my google homework so a pointer may be all I need.
- Mark
210-522-6025 office 
210-379-4635cell

Re: VMS 8.4 Alpha Hobbyist disk images

[Mark Wickens via cctalk]

Doug

Unless you've got a specific reason to run OpenVMS 8.4 for an Alphaserver
1000A I'd recommend a version more in keeping with the age of the machine,
either a variant of 7.3 or something earlier.

How much memory do you have installed?

Regards, Mark.

On 1 February 2018 at 17:55, Douglas Taylor via cctech <
cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I'm getting an Alphaserver 1000a and wanted to install VMS 8.4 - hobbyist
> license from CD.
>
> So, I went to the folder on my PC where I have the 8.4 hobbyist
> distribution.  There are 3 ISO files; ALPHA084, ALPHA084LP1 and ALPHA084LP2.
>
> I thought I would burn these to CD and up and away.  However, Windows 7
> balks and says, 'The selected disc image file isn't valid'.
>
> Is it Windows 7 or is there something I'm missing?  Is the CD on the
> Alphaserver 2048 byte block size or 512?
>
> Doug
>
>
>

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

there was 8in floppy drives still being sold in the mid 90's


On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:23 PM, David Schmidt via cctech <
cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 2/1/2018 1:00 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:> ibm had 8in floppy drives in
> their black from the times of white?
> This was dressed to go with the AS/400 line.  Mine is dated 1994.
>
> - David
>

Re: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?

[Jonathan Katz via cctalk]

This may have the answer. AIX was certainly in version 4 at that
point, so this should work.

http://www-01.ibm.com/support/docview.wss?uid=isg3T1000366

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 8:28 PM, Tapley, Mark via cctech
 wrote:
> All,
> I’m trying to resurrect an AIX workstation that may well contain 
> useful information for the NASA IMAGE spacecraft.
> The system is an IBM RiscSystem/6000 43P-140 according to the badge 
> on the front (which I think is reasonably accurate).
> It’s running a version of AIX from ~1997 or 1998. It does boot to the 
> GUI login prompt.
>
> Is there a standard procedure for recovering lost passwords for these 
> systems, or for resetting passwords? I do have physical access to the 
> machine; it’s possible I can find an AIX install disk but it’s *highly* 
> desirable to preserve the contents of the existing hard drive.
>
> Apologies in advance if this is posted somewhere obvious, I have not 
> done my google homework so a pointer may be all I need.
> - Mark
> 210-522-6025 office 
> 210-379-4635cell
>



-- 
-Jon
+44 7792 149029

Re: Password reset for ~1998 AIX on RS/6000?

[Ethan via cctalk]

	Is there a standard procedure for recovering lost passwords for 
these systems, or for resetting passwords? I do have physical access to 
the machine; it’s possible I can find an AIX install disk but it’s 
*highly* desirable to preserve the contents of the existing hard drive.


Image the hard drive off to a raw file using a linux host with a SCSI HBA?

Once that is done, it might be possible to run a hex editor against the 
hard drive (one that doesn't copy the contents into RAM) and then search 
for the password file. From there you can copy the des hash and use 
rainbow tables / wordfiles to crack it or replace it with a known DES 
hash?


This is how I used to reset my root password on my Lucent Audix UNIX host.

YMMV, others might have more insight.

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Yeah, I've got an old ABCD manual printer switch with the "centronics"
connectors that swaps all 36 lines, but it always seemed like more
trouble than it was worth, so it resides in a storage cabinet.
I use a rack-mounted PC with a couple of DC37s on the front panel, so
swapping boxes is pretty simple.


But, if you don't have one, YOU might like:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/282828648805
I can no longer justify such a purchase  :-(
(More stuff that I used to want)



I've seen some bizarre stuff, but the one that takes the cake was a boot
floppy from a PLC.  Said PLC was equipped with two floppy drives--one
for booting only and the other for user data.   The boot floppy had a
very oddball track spacing; something like 120 tpi; the user floppy was
a normal 135 tpi.  This was measured with developer (Kyread) and a
microscope.  I just couldn't believe that a manufacturer would go to
that length.
I guess the PLC manufacturer didn't want their software to be copied.
Needless to say, replacement boot floppy drives were near unobtanium and
stupid expensive when you could find one.


That IS weird!
Unless, . . .
In the unlikely event that they were clueless enough to have altered the 
track spacing, but left the rest of the drive and interface alone, in 
which case it could be connected to a "standard" FDC to make an image, and 
maybe even then replace the modified drive with a standard one.

(Or something as terminally weird, like the Tandy PDD1)


When I first got a Micropolis drive, I found "100tpi" hard to believe.
But, interchange attempts showed that by the inner tracks, it was 
not 96tpi, and nor a multiple of 48tpi.
My homemade developer, and my patience to keep trying weren't good enough 
to be able to successfully do other than take their word for how many.
(Seeing the difference between 96tpi and 100tpi should be easier than 
telling the difference between Leica thread (39mm x 26 Whitworth threads 
per inch) V the early Russian Fed (39mm x 1.0m DIN thread)

some of the earliest Canon imitations (39mm x 24tpi thread))

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

Well, I think they're overpriced, but here you go:

http://www.jdr.com/product_p/bkt-d37.htm

JDR sold all of their ISA prototype boards with a DC-37 bracket also.

--Chuck

RE: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Ali wrote:

I have been toying with making a bunch of brackets for odd connectors (I
haven't seen a bracket that has holes cut for DC37 for example readily
available for purchase). A friend of mine has access to an industrial laser
cutter and has told me he would be happy to cut brackets in quantity for
free


Ah, yes.
Back in those days, people were throwing away "low density" (5150,5160) 
disk controller boards.
When Doctor Marty reverse-engineered the Flagstaff Engineering mods to 
5150 FDC for 8" SSSD, he was paying about $1 each for them.



But, for me, when XT (with 8 slots) replaced PC (with 5 slots), the 
generic XT cases that I was using came with bags of slightly narrower 
brackets for converting cards made for PC to the narrower bracket.  And I 
once paid a few dollars for a box of those bags of brackets at Foothill.


50 for ~$50
https://www.ebay.com/itm/162634914268

But, I had to call it "DB37" to find it.  THAT is depressing.
I'm gonna have a shot of Tequila.
Much better now.


HERE IS WHAT WE NEED! :
HERE IS WHAT WE NEED! :
https://www.ebay.com/itm/282828648805

$78.81 + $9.85 S/H
Greenlee 234  37-pin d-subminiature chassis/panel punch

A few for $110 Buy-it-now with free shipping

It's quite a bit more expensive new, at Mouser, Amazon, etc.

If anybody here buys it, you gotta at least let Ali, me, and Chuck use it 
a few times, . . . 
This whole damn hobby is about lusting after stuff that we wanted 30+ 
years ago!


35 years ago, the last GOOD department chair of CS at the college agreed 
with me, and we bought a DB25 Greenlee punch.

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 02/01/2018 07:53 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:


> IFF you ever decide that you need the FDADAP (TG43), then it could go
> into a tiny inline project box with a DC37M input and DC37F output.
> 
> IFF you wanted to use switch boxes, as I did, you would need one DC37M
> to DC37M cable (screwed permanently onto the input of the switchbox).  I
> had expected to have noise or connection problems with the switchboxes,
> but it never happened.    Cheap crap was a lot better in those days!

Yeah, I've got an old ABCD manual printer switch with the "centronics"
connectors that swaps all 36 lines, but it always seemed like more
trouble than it was worth, so it resides in a storage cabinet.

I use a rack-mounted PC with a couple of DC37s on the front panel, so
swapping boxes is pretty simple.

I've seen some bizarre stuff, but the one that takes the cake was a boot
floppy from a PLC.  Said PLC was equipped with two floppy drives--one
for booting only and the other for user data.   The boot floppy had a
very oddball track spacing; something like 120 tpi; the user floppy was
a normal 135 tpi.  This was measured with developer (Kyread) and a
microscope.  I just couldn't believe that a manufacturer would go to
that length.

I guess the PLC manufacturer didn't want their software to be copied.

Needless to say, replacement boot floppy drives were near unobtanium and
stupid expensive when you could find one.

--Chuck

RE: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Ali via cctalk]

> If it's not going to be simply spread out accross the table, then I
> would rather use DC37, not HD50 and 50 pin Blue Ribbon ("Centronics")
> 
> 34 to DC37 in the PC.
> DC37 to DC37 from PC to drive case
> FDADAP inside the 8" drive case.
> 
> ALL drive cabling done with connectors that are normally used for
> floppies; no "SCSI" connectors to confuse the unwary.

So would I Fred, but I have not found 34 to DC37 adapters readily. The SCSI
stuff is out there for easy purchasing - at least for now. Plus many people
have drives in cases already w/ 50 pin connectors on them (I have a couple
and that is what that cable is being used for) so a DC37 to DC37 cable is no
bueno...

I have been toying with making a bunch of brackets for odd connectors (I
haven't seen a bracket that has holes cut for DC37 for example readily
available for purchase). A friend of mine has access to an industrial laser
cutter and has told me he would be happy to cut brackets in quantity for
free

-Ali

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

IN my case, all of my drives are terminated in DC37M connectors and my
controllers have DC37F.Half-height and 3.5" drives are housed in old
IBM 4569 boxes (we bought 50 of the things back in the day) and the 8"
and FH 5.25" have their own external boxes with PSU.
So, no matter what I want to do, it's a matter of plugging something in
and turning it on.  Need a 100 tpi drive?  Just grab it off the shelf
and plug it in.
That extents to not only PC floppy controllers, but things such as
Catweasels (I fit them with a buffer board ending in a DC37F on a
bracket) and even my WD-based controllers and my MCU setups.
It streamlines the process greatly.


The RIGHT way to do it!
I never got around to doing it right.


You probably put everything into boxes with power supplies, and NEVER
"just temporarily" connect a drive sitting loose.  Nor even try to "apply 
gentle pressure" on head positioner to try to read a disk written out of 
alignment (surprisingly, it worked with extra, but not unreasonable 
amount of, retries!)  Yeah, I know, the right way would be to misalign a 
drive, and then re-align it.


IFF you ever decide that you need the FDADAP (TG43), then it could go into 
a tiny inline project box with a DC37M input and DC37F output.


IFF you wanted to use switch boxes, as I did, you would need one DC37M to 
DC37M cable (screwed permanently onto the input of the switchbox).  I had 
expected to have noise or connection problems with the switchboxes, but it 
never happened.Cheap crap was a lot better in those days!

RE: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Ali via cctalk wrote:

Of course if you want to get fancy w/ the FDADP: www.ibm51xx.net ;)


If it's not going to be simply spread out accross the table, then
I would rather use DC37, not HD50 and 50 pin Blue Ribbon ("Centronics")

34 to DC37 in the PC.
DC37 to DC37 from PC to drive case
FDADAP inside the 8" drive case.

ALL drive cabling done with connectors that are normally used for 
floppies; no "SCSI" connectors to confuse the unwary.


(Of course, I had been working in a college, where people routinely 
connected 5150 keyboard to cassette connector, connected MDA and CGA 
monitors to the wrong video boards, monitor and early Microsoft bus mouse 
to each other's boards, PC printer to Mac-Plus DB25 (SCSI), and tried to 
use gender changer adapters to interchange printer and modem connections! 
("But we NEED two printers on that computer, and the other port is the 
wrong gender.")  The lab "technicians" eventually learned.  Some of the 
teachers never learned.)

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 02/01/2018 07:17 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> 
> If you want to get fancy, there used to be readily available DC37 on a
> bracket with short cable 34 pin header adapters, for using external
> drives on machines after 5160 (after 5160, IBM stopped including a DC37
> on the FDC card).   IBM sold one of those along with its external 720K
> 3.5".
> Then, if you really don't want stuff visible, put the FDADAP (or
> similar) inside the case for the 8" drive.  Now you have an 8" drive
> that connects as if it were a 5.25" external.

IN my case, all of my drives are terminated in DC37M connectors and my
controllers have DC37F.Half-height and 3.5" drives are housed in old
IBM 4569 boxes (we bought 50 of the things back in the day) and the 8"
and FH 5.25" have their own external boxes with PSU.

So, no matter what I want to do, it's a matter of plugging something in
and turning it on.  Need a 100 tpi drive?  Just grab it off the shelf
and plug it in.

That extents to not only PC floppy controllers, but things such as
Catweasels (I fit them with a buffer board ending in a DC37F on a
bracket) and even my WD-based controllers and my MCU setups.

It streamlines the process greatly.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

I guess--using crimp type DC37M connectors, it's not a big deal to go
from 50 conductor ribbon to DC 37.  I've even got a couple adapter PCBs
that go from 50 pin to 34 pin headers.


Which, other than the TG43 feature, is what FDADAP is.


If you want to get fancy, there used to be readily available DC37 on a 
bracket with short cable 34 pin header adapters, for using external drives 
on machines after 5160 (after 5160, IBM stopped including a DC37 on the 
FDC card).   IBM sold one of those along with its external 720K 3.5".
Then, if you really don't want stuff visible, put the FDADAP (or similar) 
inside the case for the 8" drive.  Now you have an 8" drive that connects 
as if it were a 5.25" external.


I simply used a larger table.  I had an AT, with no lid for its case on 
the table, an 8" drive on the table, a power supply on the table; the 
"other" 4096 on the table, along with a PC power supply for it, a DC37 
A/B/C switch box, a small box with its own power supply with 3", 3.25", 
and 3.5" drives.  That AT also had an Eiconscript board for HP PCL and 
Postscript, cabled to another DC37 A/B/C switch sitting on a Corona Data 
Systems CX printer (which also connected to Cordata and Jlaser boards in 
other PCs.)  There was no need to snake cables out of bracket slots, 
because there never was a lid.


My 2.8M, Floptical, and CD-ROM drives were on other PCs.

RE: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Ali via cctalk]

> 
> > Well, it's a lot easier than hamburgering cable together.
> 
> I guess--using crimp type DC37M connectors, it's not a big deal to go
> from 50 conductor ribbon to DC 37.  I've even got a couple adapter PCBs
> that go from 50 pin to 34 pin headers.


Of course if you want to get fancy w/ the FDADP: www.ibm51xx.net ;)

-Ali

Re: Modems & Xerox

[Mike Loewen via cctalk]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:


I started accessing BBSs back in the early 70s with a 300 baud modem.

From there it went to 1200; 2400; 9600; 28.8K and 56Kilobaud. All on

dialup! Now at 5 Mbits/sec. here in Ontario. An American friend has
250Mb/s download. Yikes!  The classic computer era taught us patience
didn?t it? BTW, one had to have a private phone line not a party line
for a modem to work. Making our hobby more expensive!


   What sort of BBS were you accessing in the early '70s?


Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology  http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 02/01/2018 06:09 PM, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

> Well, it's a lot easier than hamburgering cable together.

I guess--using crimp type DC37M connectors, it's not a big deal to go
from 50 conductor ribbon to DC 37.  I've even got a couple adapter PCBs
that go from 50 pin to 34 pin headers.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Exactly what does a FDADP do for *reading*?  Nothing that I can figure, 
other than re-arrange the 50 line SA-800 interface to a 34-line SA-400 
type.


"Current" versions ("since 2009") have two small 7-segment LEDs that 
display current track number.
THAT might be handy sometime, although most such times are amenable to 
software methods.



Analagous example:  When installing the beta version of Windows 3.10, it 
would hit an unrecoverable error at a certain point.  But, SMARTDRV 
wouldn't permit anything other then futile further retries (since 
SMARTDRV had already reported SUCCESS), or abort the installation, at 
which time, it destroyed all indication of where on the 
disk the problem was.  Neither SSTOR nor Spinrite could find the 
consistent bad spot.  If I had known cylinder and head, I could have 
trivially mapped out the bad spot.  I should have written a TSR to be able 
to interrupt and find out!   (Without SMARTDRV, I could have done 
an "Ignore" and renamed the specific file that failed into "BADSECS", and 
written another copy of that file to another location.)  I told MS Win31 
beta support that write-cacheing of SMARTDRV (which at that point could 
not be turned off!) was capable of creating disasters that would 
ultimately force recalls (DOS 6.00 to 6.20 replacement); they said that it 
was a HARDWARE problem, not THEIR problem, and that it was not the 
responsibility of the OS to find, work around, nor recover gracefully from 
hardware problems.

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 02/01/2018 07:57 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> On 02/01/2018 03:40 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>>> but dbit.com offers an adapter called an
>>> FDADAP that
>>> lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller.  I have a couple
>>> and they work great.
>> I second that.  I've got one and works just as it should.
>>
>> Terry (Tez)
> Exactly what does a FDADP do for *reading*?  Nothing that I can figure,
> other than re-arrange the 50 line SA-800 interface to a 34-line SA-400 type.
>
> For those drives that require RWC/TG40 signals, I agree that *writing*
> may benefit from it.
>

Well, it's a lot easier than hamburgering cable together.

bill

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

I'll also add the Jonathan (Glitch) has taken over the "what
motherboards can do what with floppies" list.

Interestingly, a lot of later legacy-floppy equipped motherboards do
very well with regards to supporting FM reading/writing--yes, even P4,
AM3+ and other boards. (N.B., I said "later" not "recent" or "bleeding
edge").

Much to my surprise, a P3 Intel i820 (that's the one with RDRAM) FIC
board not only handles FM, but 128-byte sector MFM.

P1 and 486 boards with integrated floppy controllers tend to be very
spotty on anything but MFM support.

Check glitch's table--there's an "fdtest" utility that will tell you
what your FDC can do--or not.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

If it IS SA800/850, then FPADAP,
http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html
is an easy way to handle the cabling.
The website say that they have 5 in stock,
so order immediately if you need it!


On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:

It doesn't guarantee that you will be able to read most (because of
shortcomings
in the PC floppy controller) but dbit.com offers an adapter called an
FDADAP that
lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller.  I have a couple
and they
work great.


I agree.
I always made my own cables, but I did mention [ABOVE] that FDADAP
is the easy way to handle the cabling.

First cable that I made, I used a solderless bread-board, and looking at 
both pinouts, started placing wires.
Once I saw what I was ending up with, subsequent cables were a flat 34 pin 
cable, that I peeled out a few wires, and very carefully held them in 
place to crimp on a 50 pin connector.

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>
>
> But, you have to tread very carefully.  Because SOMETIMES [now rarely],
> they could mean the PRE-5150 definition where "IBM compatible" meant
> 3740/SSSD 8" with 128 byte sectors.
> 5150 really was a danger to itself and/or others; it totally destroyed the
> meaning ot "IBM compatible" disks.
>

Indeed!   But in this case he did mean MS-DOS compatible.  I asked him if
by IBM compatible he meant MS-DOS compatible and indeed that's what he
meant.

Terry (Tez)

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

but dbit.com offers an adapter called an FDADAP that lets you connect 
a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller.  I have a couple and they work 
great.


On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Exactly what does a FDADP do for *reading*?  Nothing that I can figure,
other than re-arrange the 50 line SA-800 interface to a 34-line SA-400 type.


for reading, it doesn't do anything other than cabling.  It means using a 
flat 34 cable and a flat 50 cable, without the trivial effort of making 
your own 34 to 50 cable.



For those drives that require RWC/TG40 signals, I agree that *writing*
may benefit from it.


THAT is the part that my homemade cables don't do.

But, it was extremely rare that I needed to WRITE 8".
When I did have to, I tried to write to fresh empty disks, so that I could 
stay mostly on lower numbered tracks.

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 02/01/2018 03:40 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>> but dbit.com offers an adapter called an
>> FDADAP that
>> lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller.  I have a couple
>> and they work great.
> 
> I second that.  I've got one and works just as it should.
> 
> Terry (Tez)

Exactly what does a FDADP do for *reading*?  Nothing that I can figure,
other than re-arrange the 50 line SA-800 interface to a 34-line SA-400 type.

For those drives that require RWC/TG40 signals, I agree that *writing*
may benefit from it.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>but dbit.com offers an adapter called an
>FDADAP that
>lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller.  I have a couple
>and they work great.

I second that.  I've got one and works just as it should.

Terry (Tez)

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 02/01/2018 06:13 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Ali via cctalk wrote:
>> Anyone know how easy it is to adapt one of these to work with an IBM 
>> PC compatible class machine? I have one sitting around here somewhere 
>> and if I recall correctly the drive is a bog std. YE-DATA DS 8" drive 
>> so it should be just a matter of making sure the cabling is ok.
>
> If it is a 50 pin edge connector, then it is LIKELY that it follows 
> the Shugart 800/850 pinout.  BUT, it is still a good idea to find and 
> check the pinout of the specific model drive, since some added 
> additional signals and/or repurposed pins for other purposes.
> And, check the drive specific pinout for power connections!
> 5.25" drives had a standardized power connection.
> 8" drives do NOT have standardized power connections.  Not all used 
> the same power nor connector nor pinout as Shugart.  In addition to 
> 5VDC, you may need 24V or 12V, and maybe even -5VDC, or even AC.
>
>
> If it IS SA800/850, then FPADAP,
> http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html
> is an easy way to handle the cabling.
> The website say that they have 5 in stock,
> so order immediately if you need it!
>
> If you are reading ONLY, and not writing to the drive, then you do not 
> need the TG43 signal and circuitry, in which case it is trivial to 
> make your own cable.  The majority of the 5.25" (SA400) signals are 
> even in the same order, so you can start with a 34 pin flat cable, 
> peel out a small handful of the wires, and crimp them in a 50 pin IDC 
> edge connector.
> YMMV.
>

It doesn't guarantee that you will be able to read most (because of 
shortcomings
in the PC floppy controller) but dbit.com offers an adapter called an 
FDADAP that
lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller.  I have a couple 
and they
work great.

bill

RE: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Ali via cctalk wrote:
Anyone know how easy it is to adapt one of these to work with an IBM PC 
compatible class machine? I have one sitting around here somewhere and 
if I recall correctly the drive is a bog std. YE-DATA DS 8" drive so it 
should be just a matter of making sure the cabling is ok.


If it is a 50 pin edge connector, then it is LIKELY that it follows the 
Shugart 800/850 pinout.  BUT, it is still a good idea to find and check 
the pinout of the specific model drive, since some added additional 
signals and/or repurposed pins for other purposes.

And, check the drive specific pinout for power connections!
5.25" drives had a standardized power connection.
8" drives do NOT have standardized power connections.  Not all used the 
same power nor connector nor pinout as Shugart.  In addition to 
5VDC, you may need 24V or 12V, and maybe even -5VDC, or even AC.



If it IS SA800/850, then FPADAP,
http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html
is an easy way to handle the cabling.
The website say that they have 5 in stock,
so order immediately if you need it!

If you are reading ONLY, and not writing to the drive, then you do not 
need the TG43 signal and circuitry, in which case it is trivial to make 
your own cable.  The majority of the 5.25" (SA400) signals are even in the 
same order, so you can start with a 34 pin flat cable, peel out a small 
handful of the wires, and crimp them in a 50 pin IDC edge connector.

YMMV.

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>
>
> DOS/Windoze will have absolutely no idea how to understand what is on the
> disk.
>
> Makes me thinks of the time a few months ago when a lab on our campus
wanted me to read some 8 inch disks in the archives for them.  The IT
manager said "I think they are IBM-compatible" (and by that he meant IBM-PC
compatible i.e MS-DOS).   I thought "yea, right."

They weren't of course.

Terry (Tez)

RE: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Ali via cctalk]

> This is true.  I have the pinouts at home if anyone wants them, I can
> post them when I get home from work.  

Josh,

That would be great. Thanks.

-Ali

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

The drives that where used on the AS/400 are all "industry standard" 
drives so it should be easy to adapt one to a PC.

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
The drives may be standard, but I am curious how standard the format of 
what's on the disk is.  How likely is it that a PC OS from the last ~30 
years will understand how to read what's on the disk?


Or, I'm guessing it's likely that archival programs don't need to 
understand how to read the disk format for raw disk imaging.


DOS/Windoze will have absolutely no idea how to understand what is on the 
disk.


It is a different file system structure, and DOS/Windoze didn't deal with 
that.
THAT is why there existed programs such as 22Disk, XenoCopy, Uniform, etc. 
to interpret the file system of disks from CP/M, P-System, TRS-DOS, etc.

that had different file system structures, but similar recording methods.

There were somewhere around 2500 mutually incompatible floppy formats.
(XenoCopy included capability for 400 of them)

If the physical track structure is "standard" MFM, then it is possible to 
read sectors from them.  That means that Imagedisk, Teledisk, or a disk 
file transfer program that has implemented THAT format can read them.


If the physical track structure is different, even if using the same disk 
drive, such as hard-sector, MFM without similar sector headers, MMFM (FM 
sector headers, MFM data), or GCR (Apple, Commodore, Sirius/Victor, etc.), 
then you can not read sectors using a PC FDC chip.  Nevertheless, flux 
transition, such as Kryoflux, Cat Weasel, Option Board, can still capture 
the raw flux transitions, and maybe make sense out of them.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Modems & Xerox

[Murray McCullough via cctalk]

I started accessing BBSs back in the early 70s with a 300 baud modem.
>From there it went to 1200; 2400; 9600; 28.8K and 56Kilobaud. All on
dialup! Now at 5 Mbits/sec. here in Ontario. An American friend has
250Mb/s download. Yikes!  The classic computer era taught us patience
didn’t it? BTW, one had to have a private phone line not a party line
for a modem to work. Making our hobby more expensive!

On the business-side of computing: Xerox sold 50.1% of its business to
Fujifilm, Japan. Xerox Parc was a seminal institution in early classic
computing era: Mouse and graphics input for instance.

Happy computing!

Murray  :)

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 02/01/2018 01:44 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
> On 02/01/2018 02:08 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:
>> The drives that where used on the AS/400 are all "industry standard"
>> drives so it should be easy to adapt one to a PC.
> 
> The drives may be standard, but I am curious how standard the format of
> what's on the disk is.  How likely is it that a PC OS from the last ~30
> years will understand how to read what's on the disk?
> 
> Or, I'm guessing it's likely that archival programs don't need to
> understand how to read the disk format for raw disk imaging.

It's pretty likely that the disks follow one of the standard IBM formats
described here:

http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/ibm/floppy/GA21-9182-5_Diskette_General_Information_Manual_Jul80.pdf

Pretty much standard FM/MFM; easy enough if you still have a PC with a
legacy floppy interface.

After that, it's matter of interpreting what you get.  Not a big deal,
really.

--Chuck

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 02/01/2018 02:08 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:
The drives that where used on the AS/400 are all "industry standard" 
drives so it should be easy to adapt one to a PC.


The drives may be standard, but I am curious how standard the format of 
what's on the disk is.  How likely is it that a PC OS from the last ~30 
years will understand how to read what's on the disk?


Or, I'm guessing it's likely that archival programs don't need to 
understand how to read the disk format for raw disk imaging.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Josh Dersch via cctalk]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 1:08 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> On 2018-02-01 3:43 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote:
>
>> This was dressed to go with the AS/400 line.  Mine is dated 1994.
>>>
>> Anyone know how easy it is to adapt one of these to work with an IBM PC
>> compatible class machine? I have one sitting around here somewhere and if I
>> recall correctly the drive is a bog std. YE-DATA DS 8" drive so it should
>> be just a matter of making sure the cabling is ok.
>>
>> The drives that where used on the AS/400 are all "industry standard"
> drives so it should be easy to adapt one to a PC.
>
> Paul.
>


This is true.  I have the pinouts at home if anyone wants them, I can post
them when I get home from work.  However: I will note that the YE-DATA 8"
drives have heads that are rough on some 8" media, particularly those prone
to shedding.  The heads are also a pain to get to to clean after such
shedding has taken place.  I've stopped using mine for 8" archival for this
reason.  The Shugart 850/851s are much nicer in this regard (Al suggested
them to me awhile back) -- easier on disks, much easier to clean.

- Josh

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

On 2018-02-01 3:43 PM, Ali via cctalk wrote:

This was dressed to go with the AS/400 line.  Mine is dated 1994.

Anyone know how easy it is to adapt one of these to work with an IBM PC compatible 
class machine? I have one sitting around here somewhere and if I recall correctly 
the drive is a bog std. YE-DATA DS 8" drive so it should be just a matter of 
making sure the cabling is ok.

The drives that where used on the AS/400 are all "industry standard" 
drives so it should be easy to adapt one to a PC.


Paul.

Re: X11 expertise on ancient HW sought... (4-plane visual (overlay) via X-server on MS-WIndows)

[David Brownlee via cctalk]

On 31 January 2018 at 08:21, Dimitris Theodoropoulos
 wrote:
> I believe that my case is identical to the original message of the list and
> 24-bit is required.
> The problematic visual (the one which is not provided by the external
> X-server) is the following (I cite an extract from xdpyinfo on the original
> system):
>
>   visual:
> visual id:0x36
> class:PseudoColor
> depth:4 planes
> available colormap entries:16
> red, green, blue masks:0x0, 0x0, 0x0
> significant bits in color specification:4 bits
>
> At another part of xdpyinfo, I also get the following info:
>
> screen #0:
>   dimensions:1280x1024 pixels (342x274 millimeters)
>   resolution:95x95 dots per inch
>   depths (4):8, 12, 24, 4
>
> Please forgive my technical ineptitude, in case I did not answer your
> question, but I am not experienced in this domain.

OK, so it looks like it might be looking for a PseudoColor display,
which I'm not sure is supported by current X11 (*), check if your
MacOS server is supporting PseudoColor - I think Apple dropped it
around a decade or so ago.

You *might* be able to run Xephyr to present a sub XServer which can
run 8 bit PseudoColor (its freely available under (*nix), not sure
about Windows.

(*) Current X11 on x86 looks to have dropped PseudoColor, though there
may be some odd VESA or other target drivers. Current X11 on non x86
hardware still supports 8bit, 4bit and other crazy historical
bitdepths, which is awesome in its own right, but probably not
directly useful in this context.

So if it is PseudoColor and your target display is Windows, some
increasingly crazy options:

Native Windows X servers
- Look for a Windows Xephyr port and run under MobaXterm or similar
- Find a really ancient (read, probably crashes a lot and may not work
on recent Windows) Windows X server which support PseudoColor
- Fire up a Linux VM and run Xephyr in there with the display set to MobaXterm

Run your actual other OS image on a really fast PC in an emulator
which simulates the actual display hardware it needs

Using some other OS in a VM full screen as an X server
- Check to see if there is some way to get the Linux VM to use a VESA
or some other driver which comes in 8 bit
- Fire up an ancient Linux (or similar) with X11 PseudoColor support in a VM
- Fire up a modern (or even older) *nix for hardware which is native 8
or 4 bpp in qemu (I said increasingly crazy)

RE: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Ali via cctalk]

> This was dressed to go with the AS/400 line.  Mine is dated 1994.

Anyone know how easy it is to adapt one of these to work with an IBM PC 
compatible class machine? I have one sitting around here somewhere and if I 
recall correctly the drive is a bog std. YE-DATA DS 8" drive so it should be 
just a matter of making sure the cabling is ok.

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[David Schmidt via cctalk]

On 2/1/2018 1:00 PM, Adrian Stoness wrote:> ibm had 8in floppy drives in 
their black from the times of white?

This was dressed to go with the AS/400 line.  Mine is dated 1994.

- David

Re: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual

[Jason T via cctalk]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 12:01 PM, Mike Norris via cctalk
 wrote:
> Do you know were or how is the best place to send the scan (sorry this is my 
> first post)?

First post and already bottom-posting - off to a fine start!

Please do scan the manual if you can't find an example of it online.
Email me directly if you need hosting for it
(http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs).

-j

Re: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Feb 1, 2018, at 1:56 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> I guess they trusted the disk enough.  Normal practice would be to save the 
>> dayfile to a regular disk file periodically (perhaps as part of daily 
>> maintenance), at which point you could print it, or archive it to tape, or 
>> whatever else comes to mind.
> 
> Was there typically any other way to access the disk file, such as if the 
> system were down?
> It could be useful in troubleshooting, such as if the system were down.

Not that I know of.  The file system structure was quite trivial so it would be 
easy to write a standalone inspect tool but I don't remember any such thing.

> At least they would not have had "Help" to suggest, "If the system will not 
> IPL/Boot, then run Troubleshooting Wizard"

That at least isn't an issue, since deadstart (CDC for "IPL") was traditionally 
done from magnetic tape, and could also load from other media if needed.

paul

Re: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Thu, 1 Feb 2018, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
I guess they trusted the disk enough.  Normal practice would be to save 
the dayfile to a regular disk file periodically (perhaps as part of 
daily maintenance), at which point you could print it, or archive it to 
tape, or whatever else comes to mind.


Was there typically any other way to access the disk file, such as if the 
system were down?

It could be useful in troubleshooting, such as if the system were down.
. . .

At least they would not have had "Help" to suggest, "If the system will 
not IPL/Boot, then run Troubleshooting Wizard"

Re: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Feb 1, 2018, at 1:01 PM, Eric Smith  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:56 AM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> > On Feb 1, 2018, at 12:51 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk  
> > wrote:
> > console terminal [...] VT52. (It was not good
> > practice to use a CRT as the system console, IMO.)
> 
> As for CRTs, it all depends on the design assumptions.  Lots of operating 
> system console interfaces are designed on the assumption you have hardcopy 
> consoles, and if so a CRT is a bad idea.  But you can certainly make CRT 
> consoles and have it work -- consider the CDC 6000 series.
> 
> Just a wild-ass guess, but I suspect that a typical CDC 6600 system would 
> have had a printer that logged console interaction?  I'm only suggesting that 
> a CRT console with no logging was a bad idea.

True.  The CDC OS would log anything interesting to a "dayfile", essentially a 
running log of system events including operator actions.  Those go to disk.  
Dayfile messages related to a particular job would also be printed with that 
job output.

> Of course, in principle the logging could be to disk or tape, but I don't 
> think most "machine-room" people would have trusted that nearly as much for a 
> console log. One wants a log of what happened on the console even when the 
> system was not working well.

I guess they trusted the disk enough.  Normal practice would be to save the 
dayfile to a regular disk file periodically (perhaps as part of daily 
maintenance), at which point you could print it, or archive it to tape, or 
whatever else comes to mind.

There was also the "accounting log", a second dayfile with accounting related 
messages coded in a fashion that made it straightforward to extract the data 
for billing.  And an "error log" with messages related to hardware problems 
(I/O errors with the hardware error detail data).

paul

Re: Foonlies

[Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk]

Lars Brinkhoff wrote:
> Al Kossow wrote:
>>> SUPERFOONLY   DESIGNED 1968-71
>> Was this ever built?
> This says the Superfoonly was designed.  Doesn't say it was actually
> built.

Confirmed by Dave Dyer:

   The original foonly design at Stanford was a paper design; I don't
   think there were actual schematics or board layouts.  I believe it
   was proposed to be built using the best available TTL components.

   I think the F1 was essentially the same design, but obviously with
   full schematics and board layout, using faster ECL components.

Re: MACSYMA classic

[Lars Brinkhoff via cctalk]

Noel Chiappa wrote:
>> It's frankensteined together from a mix of source and FASL files
> FASL? So some of the sources are apparently gone?

Right, we haven't found sources for everything in Macsyma.  I'd say
we're lucky to have it running at all, and also that we have a former
Macsyma staff member working on it!

Re: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:56 AM, Paul Koning  wrote:

> > On Feb 1, 2018, at 12:51 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > console terminal [...] VT52. (It was not good
> > practice to use a CRT as the system console, IMO.)
>
> As for CRTs, it all depends on the design assumptions.  Lots of operating
> system console interfaces are designed on the assumption you have hardcopy
> consoles, and if so a CRT is a bad idea.  But you can certainly make CRT
> consoles and have it work -- consider the CDC 6000 series.
>

Just a wild-ass guess, but I suspect that a typical CDC 6600 system would
have had a printer that logged console interaction?  I'm only suggesting
that a CRT console with no logging was a bad idea.

Of course, in principle the logging could be to disk or tape, but I don't
think most "machine-room" people would have trusted that nearly as much for
a console log. One wants a log of what happened on the console even when
the system was not working well.

Re: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual

[Mike Norris via cctalk]

Hi Eric,


>I know it sounds snarky, and admittedly my sample size is small, but it
>seems to me that it was quite _rarely_ used as a console printer in place
>of a LA36. Of the DEC machine rooms I saw back in the day (DECsystem-10,
>PDP-11, VAX-11/7xx), most used an LA36 or LA120 as the console terminal,
>but I also saw one Teletype Model 43 and one VT52. (It was not good
>practice to use a CRT as the system console, IMO.)


I worked in the Multivendor Environment so DEC (OEM 11's) so DEC terminals 
weren't that common there and when we first started using it I don't think we 
had access the LA120 (here in the UK at least!)

>However, a scan of the SuperTerm maintenance manual definitely would be
>good to archive for posterity.

Do you know were or how is the best place to send the scan (sorry this is my 
first post)?

Regards Mike Norris

Re: MACSYMA classic

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Lars Brinkhoff

> It's frankensteined together from a mix of source and FASL files

FASL? So some of the sources are apparently gone?

Noel

Re: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Feb 1, 2018, at 12:51 PM, Eric Smith via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:19 AM, Mike Norris via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> The SuperTerm was manufactured by Intertec Data Systems c. 1978, it was a
>> 180 CPS dot matrix printer (RS232), quite often used as a console printer
>> in place of a LA36,
> 
> 
> I know it sounds snarky, and admittedly my sample size is small, but it
> seems to me that it was quite _rarely_ used as a console printer in place
> of a LA36. Of the DEC machine rooms I saw back in the day (DECsystem-10,
> PDP-11, VAX-11/7xx), most used an LA36 or LA120 as the console terminal,
> but I also saw one Teletype Model 43 and one VT52. (It was not good
> practice to use a CRT as the system console, IMO.)

My college experience (1973-1975) with consoles started with a ASR-33, then an 
LA30, and finally an LA36.  The LA30 was, amazingly enough, even less reliable 
than the ASR-33.  The LA36, on the other hand, was rock solid (as was the 
LA120, which I didn't see until after I went to DEC).

As for CRTs, it all depends on the design assumptions.  Lots of operating 
system console interfaces are designed on the assumption you have hardcopy 
consoles, and if so a CRT is a bad idea.  But you can certainly make CRT 
consoles and have it work -- consider the CDC 6000 series.

paul

Re: SuperTerm Maintenance Manual

[Eric Smith via cctalk]

On Thu, Feb 1, 2018 at 10:19 AM, Mike Norris via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> The SuperTerm was manufactured by Intertec Data Systems c. 1978, it was a
> 180 CPS dot matrix printer (RS232), quite often used as a console printer
> in place of a LA36,


I know it sounds snarky, and admittedly my sample size is small, but it
seems to me that it was quite _rarely_ used as a console printer in place
of a LA36. Of the DEC machine rooms I saw back in the day (DECsystem-10,
PDP-11, VAX-11/7xx), most used an LA36 or LA120 as the console terminal,
but I also saw one Teletype Model 43 and one VT52. (It was not good
practice to use a CRT as the system console, IMO.)

I saw Intertec Intertube CRT terminals and SuperBrain microcomputers a fair
bit outside the machine rooms, but never saw a SuperTerm, though I'd seen
advertising for it. Given that it cost slightly more than an LA120, if I'd
had to make the choice, I'd have bought an LA120.  Also typically DEC
offered good deals on buying a complete system, at least for the sort of
large systems you'd find in a machine room, so substituting another
vendor's console terminal would cost more than just the delta in price
between the DEC terminal and the other vendor's terminal.

It's possible that some of the console terminals I saw could have had LA36
internal upgrades produced by Intertec or other companies. The only
advantage was that an LA36 could be upgraded to higher speed. The various
third-party graphics upgrades for the LA36 obviously weren't worthwhile for
a console terminal except in so far as they included the speed upgrade.

However, a scan of the SuperTerm maintenance manual definitely would be
good to archive for posterity.

SuperTerm Maintenance Manual

[Mike Norris via cctalk]

Hi Guys,

I am new to the group, so let me know if this post is inappropriate.


I have a SuperTerm Maintenance Manual that I am about to put in the bin.


I am prepared to scan it if any one is interested, I could not find it on 
bitsavers.org, but I guess there may be one in the backlog?


The SuperTerm was manufactured by Intertec Data Systems c. 1978, it was a 180 
CPS dot matrix printer (RS232), quite often used as a console printer in place 
of a LA36, Intertec also did a speed up board for the LA36 (I may have details 
on that when I get through clearing out my loft), to make it a 150 CPS printer, 
although it was prone to carriage slams initially, same was true of the 
SuperTerm for a while, which also resulted in the carriage driver transistors 
burning out. The company I worked for produced a separate driver board to get 
around the problem, typical patch at the time.


Regards Mike Norris

connecticut micocomputer AIM16

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

Does anyone have an AIM16 hardware unit made by Connecticut microComputer
company, from the late 70's?  I am working through their cassette software,
a box I got years ago from their internal programming department with
versions and variations of same programs.
Bill

Re: Foonlies

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 1/31/18 6:25 PM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:
> 
> The fourth guy was Dick Helliwell, who was hired by DEC when they licensed 
> SUDS
> from SAIL.  I met Dick when we both worked at XKL; he was the major part of 
> the
> effort to make SUDS run on the X Window System, on the KL-10 and later on the
> Toad-1.  I'm going to disagree with the history Al posted, because Dick 
> himself
> told me the story.
> 

It would be good to get the actual history from the source.
I was just parroting a summary, with SUDS as a tiny part.

The observative will find Dick's name on some of the DEC SUDS-generated 
drawings, "S. Foonly" on others.

Re: chip technology dead-ends (was: Foonlies)

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Feb 1, 2018, at 12:40 AM, Mark Linimon via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Jan 31, 2018 at 07:07:23PM -0800, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>> Back in the 70s, 4000-series CMOS was among the slowest logic around.
> 
> I really wish I still had one technical magazine that came out during
> the late 70s/early 80s.  (I don't remember which one it was, anymore.)
> It was devoted to keeping you up with the latest chip/minicomputer
> technology.

Lambda? (Later renamed VLSI Design if I remember right.)  I still have the 
first issue, with an article by Ron Rivest describing the full-custom RSA chip 
(512 bit ALU) he designed.

As for CMOS for high speed computing, I recently read an interesting article 
about CDC spinoff ETA betting the company on that.  It worked in the sense that 
the technology was a success, but the company closed anyway due to the fact 
that it was controlled by CDC.

http://ethw.org/w/index.php?title=First-Hand:The_First_CMOS_And_The_Only_Cryogenically_Cooled_Supercomputer=154872

paul

Re: DL10 documentation

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Phil Budne

> FWIW, Found these bits
> ...
> Those bits and others can be found

Excellent archaeology! With these, and the ITS sources (for which we have both
the -10 and -11 sides), the register definitions in the early PDP-10 CPU
manual, and the prints, it should be possible to write a programming manual
for the DL10, to replace the one that's now lost. (If it ever existed - does
anyone know?)

Any chance I could convince you to enter all this stuff on the CHWiki DL10
article:

  http://gunkies.org/wiki/DL10

Lars (mostly) and I have added a little bit, but there's still a long way to
go!

Noel

Re: Foonlies

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Rich Alderson

> I'm going to disagree with the history Al posted, because Dick himself
> told me the story.

What was the history according to Dick, if you recall? Would he still be
available, to write it as he saw it down himself?

Noel