Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 12/16/18 11:21 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

> If you simply want non-volatile memory, the obvious answer is SRAM with 
> battery backup and a small FPGA to do the interfacing.

I proposed nvRAM - CMOS SRAM backed by cell-for-cell flash.  Loads SRAM
from flash on power-up and stores into flash at power-down.  All that's
needed is a capacitor to extend the power-down cycle a bit.

Very fast, available in 8 to 32-bit wide architectures, up to 16Mbit per
package.

Claims to be guaranteed for 1M power cycles and doesn't require a battery.


--Chuck

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk]

> On Dec 16, 2018, at 8:21 PM, allison via cctech  wrote:
> 
> On 12/15/2018 03:51 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote:
>> On 12/15/2018 02:45 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
>>> Serial flash has an endurance between 10K-100K writes per cell so I
>>> think
>>> that would break down quickly. Wear-leveling on a serial device would be
>>> very slow...
>>> 
>>> 
>> If you intend to use it as main core memory on an old CPU, it will
>> perform VERY poorly, as these memories need to erase a page at a time,
>> and the erase takes milliseconds.  So, writing ONE SINGLE word at a
>> time would invoke an erase cycle each time, slowing it to 1/1000 or
>> worse the speed of the original core memory.  Also, most old CPUs have
>> the memory timing built into the CPU, and can't handle a memory that
>> says "wait".
>> 
>> Jon
> The only place where Flash or similar tech fits is applied to the mass
> storage problem such as replicating
> a RF/DF32 multihead disk.
> 
> The cycle life is a limiting factor for things like swapping drums/disks
> but for something that's
> read mostly its ok.

Frankly even in those applications (RF11/DF32) I’d use MRAM (available in 2Mx8)
rather than FLASH because (a) it’s byte addressable (b) it has unlimited write 
endurance
(c) it looks like SRAM so there’s no erase cycle (or blocks) to deal with so it 
makes
the hardware easier (e.g. it should be possible to implement one of those 
controllers
just with logic and not require a microprocessor).

BTW, that’s what I use for the emulators that I’m working on (when I have 
time…in
short supply at the moment).

I also use them even when I do use FLASH as I can use it as a buffer/cache to 
help
absorb some of the write/overwrite cycles and to be able to handle 
(non-volatile) full
FLASH block operations and for wear leveling (tracking and block remapping).  
That
way I don’t have to deal with a PMIC and battery.  MRAMs also have a >20 year 
data
retention as well (something you don’t have with a battery…if the battery dies, 
you
loose everything).

TTFN - Guy

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[allison via cctalk]

On 12/15/2018 09:32 PM, Charles Anthony via cctech wrote:
> On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 6:15 PM Rod G8DGR via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
>> All very interesting.. 1201 alarm while I deal will all of the information
>> Rod
>>
>>
> 1202 coming up...
>
> I don't know specifically about the various memory types being bandied
> about, but I do know that the destructive read behavior of core memory my
> be required for some architectures; "load and clear" type instructions rely
> on the suppressing the write-after-read cycle to make the instruction
> atomic, allowing the implementation of data locking instructions. For some
> architectures,  it may be that any replacement memory would have to support
> the suppression signal to work correctly.
>
> -- Charles

That's all fairy land speculation and guessing.  The person that started
this is working with
a PDP-8E so the above does not apply.  the 8E and later had both DEC
made ram and third
parties did when 2102 were cheap enough about 78ish.    Later it was
battery backed up
cmos.  For system with disk a rom based booter was enough as who cares
if the ram held
valid stuff.  As to realism, the cost of a core was high enough then if
it broke or worse now
if it breaks its out of sight.  Breakage back then was costly, not its
possibly unobtainium.

The for the most part with the covers on the only thing noted was binary
blisters from the
switches and the incessant loud fans.   In the mean time the user was
interacting with a
TTY with its notable noises and if needing service a sometimes bad
attitude.  The fact that
CORE does a R-Rewrite or RMW cycle is both unseen without a scope and
had no impact while
running a file though PAL-III in all caps.

In the end, current generation CMOS ram is the easy out, battery is
small, cost is small,  and
produces much less of the heat that is killer to systems.   The only
reason to do that is core
cost big if you can find it for your machine.  I can cost more if you
want to run an OS that
needs a fair amount of it.  AC as well as it can help heat the room and
also power as in
makes the meter spin.

So much lathering and speculation about what and how.  When the point is
totally missed.

Allison

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

I put  focal in it...I leave  focal in it...  then I turn on the power  it 
talks focal to  a tty!


( for  grains  want   copy  of  focal  11  for the 11/20  too...)
 
But  definitely  want to  see focal on a  little omnibus 8! Just like that 
famous night in 1979..
Life  is  good    Ed#
 
In a message dated 12/16/2018 8:08:01 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cct...@classiccmp.org writes:

 
What programs or operating sytems require non volatile core?

Did DEC have any BOOTSTRAP programs in prom for the 8?
A small prom and regular slow mos memory may be the solution.
Ben.

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[allison via cctalk]

On 12/15/2018 03:51 PM, Jon Elson via cctech wrote:
> On 12/15/2018 02:45 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk wrote:
>> Serial flash has an endurance between 10K-100K writes per cell so I
>> think
>> that would break down quickly. Wear-leveling on a serial device would be
>> very slow...
>>
>>
> If you intend to use it as main core memory on an old CPU, it will
> perform VERY poorly, as these memories need to erase a page at a time,
> and the erase takes milliseconds.  So, writing ONE SINGLE word at a
> time would invoke an erase cycle each time, slowing it to 1/1000 or
> worse the speed of the original core memory.  Also, most old CPUs have
> the memory timing built into the CPU, and can't handle a memory that
> says "wait".
>
> Jon
The only place where Flash or similar tech fits is applied to the mass
storage problem such as replicating
a RF/DF32 multihead disk.

The cycle life is a limiting factor for things like swapping drums/disks
but for something that's
read mostly its ok.

Core is RAM, and not serial anyway.

Allison

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[allison via cctalk]

On 12/16/2018 10:07 PM, ben via cctech wrote:
> On 12/16/2018 8:00 PM, allison via cctech wrote:
>
>> In the end, current generation CMOS ram is the easy out, battery is
>> small, cost is small,  and
>> produces much less of the heat that is killer to systems.   The only
>> reason to do that is core
>> cost big if you can find it for your machine.  I can cost more if you
>> want to run an OS that
>> needs a fair amount of it.  AC as well as it can help heat the room and
>> also power as in
>> makes the meter spin.
>>
>> So much lathering and speculation about what and how.  When the point is
>> totally missed.
>>
>> Allison
>>
>
> What programs or operating sytems require non volatile core?
> Did DEC have any BOOTSTRAP programs in prom for the 8?
> A small prom and regular slow mos memory may be the solution.
> Ben.
>
None.

Non volitility was handy if you wanted to power down go home and restart
where you were
the next day but at the OS level that was never a consideration.

CMOS is MOS!  Current generation parts are cheap and easy to use.  Its
not a speed issue as
core was so slow, PDP-8 the fastest core was 1.5uS and even current cmos
(5101) was under 1uS.
No advanatage for slow memory as everything from 1978 on was likely much
faster than an 8e
needed anyway. 

The easy way if obvious use cmos as its cheap and common as house
flies.  Leave out the
small lithium cell. 

The problem is PROM cards for PDP-8 omnibus was not common at at then
then time cheap
and used parts likely to be unobtainium now.  The machines that had it
used an abbreviated
front panel  maybe 12 sense switches for the OSR instruction and a
boot/start switch.  Not many
made and FS contract required the full panel to do checkout and fix.  So
cost wise the boot card
was not common.  Call it an artifact of systems then.

The loader for most stuff was small anyway, toggle it in, usually rim or
bin loaders.  Run the reader
and that loaded whatever.

Typical small non disk systems were CPU, TTY and maybe a high speed
reader.  Next level added TU56
or maybe RX01 floppy, from there a DF32 disk and maybe a RK05 or two. 

The user interacted with them the box ala the CPU was a small part of
that interaction/experience.


Allison

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[ben via cctalk]

On 12/16/2018 8:00 PM, allison via cctech wrote:


In the end, current generation CMOS ram is the easy out, battery is
small, cost is small,  and
produces much less of the heat that is killer to systems.   The only
reason to do that is core
cost big if you can find it for your machine.  I can cost more if you
want to run an OS that
needs a fair amount of it.  AC as well as it can help heat the room and
also power as in
makes the meter spin.

So much lathering and speculation about what and how.  When the point is
totally missed.

Allison



What programs or operating sytems require non volatile core?
Did DEC have any BOOTSTRAP programs in prom for the 8?
A small prom and regular slow mos memory may be the solution.
Ben.

RE: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[Rod G8DGR via cctalk]

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: ben via cctech
Sent: 17 December 2018 03:08
To: cct...@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

On 12/16/2018 8:00 PM, allison via cctech wrote:

> In the end, current generation CMOS ram is the easy out, battery is
> small, cost is small,  and
> produces much less of the heat that is killer to systems.   The only
> reason to do that is core
> cost big if you can find it for your machine.  I can cost more if you
> want to run an OS that
> needs a fair amount of it.  AC as well as it can help heat the room and
> also power as in
> makes the meter spin.
> 
> So much lathering and speculation about what and how.  When the point is
> totally missed.
> 
> Allison
> 

What programs or operating sytems require non volatile core?
Did DEC have any BOOTSTRAP programs in prom for the 8?
A small prom and regular slow mos memory may be the solution.
Ben.


I’m trying to make a  look and feel  reproduction PDP-8/e. 
So the memory characteristics need to be as close as possible.

An original ( and I do have one)  and the copy when placed side by side should 
run in sync.
When executing he same code – What code I couldn’t care.

Rod

Re: flashx20 - Floppy and screen for the Epson HX-20

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On December 16, 2018 at 11:14 PM allison via cctalk  
wrote:



On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Norbert Kehrer via cctalk wrote:

I have not tested it, but I suppose, that also the PX-8 and PX-4 used
the protocol,
because the protocol specification defines the following device numbers:
- HX-20: 0x20 (probably also used for the HC-20)
- PX-8:  0x22
- PX-4:  0x23





PX-8!


A subject dear to me.  I still have the px-8 I bought new (borrowed the money 
from my sister) as a young man in 1984.  Alas, I could never afford the PF-10 
disk drive.



However, the PX-8 3.5" had 40 cylinders, with 67.5 tpi, instead of the
common 80 cylinder 135 tpi of other 3.5" disks.
Those 40 cylinder 3.5" drives are quite rare.


On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Will Cooke via cctalk wrote:
Somewhere in my searches I recall reading that the 3 1/2" drives used 
the same format as the 5 1/4" ones.  Maybe 40 tracks of 16 256 byte 
sectors.  Oddly, I believe that 2 tracks are "reserved for CP/M" even 
though it is in ROM and not stored on disk.


It was not uncommon for CP/M disks to have "reserved" or "system" tracks, 
even when the particular disk was not a bootable "system" disk.


I don't remember for sure, and don't have convenient access to my 
materials, but 16 256 byte physical sectors makes sense.


The drive manual
http://electrickery.xs4all.nl/comp/px8/doc/PF-10Manual.pdf
SAYS 9 512 byte sectors, but that seems likely to be in error from a cut 
and paste boilerplate from a different machine, because the more specific 
information is all for "64 sectors", which means CP/M RECORDS or "logical 
sectors" of 128 bytes each.  THAT would be consistent with either 8 512 
byte PHYSICAL sectors, or 16 256 byte PHYSICAL sectors.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: flashx20 - Floppy and screen for the Epson HX-20

[allison via cctalk]

On 12/16/2018 10:59 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Norbert Kehrer via cctalk wrote:
>> I have not tested it, but I suppose, that also the PX-8 and PX-4 used
>> the protocol,
>> because the protocol specification defines the following device numbers:
>> - HX-20: 0x20 (probably also used for the HC-20)
>> - PX-8:  0x22
>> - PX-4:  0x23
>
>
>
PX-8!

> The Epson Geneva PX-8 had an external 3.5" floppy available, and CP/M!
CP/M was in rom so your disk was a paltry 24k(bare PX8), 60K(multiwedge)
or 120K (Ramdisk wedge)
and of course both a 5.25 or 3.5 floppy.  The 3.5" drive could run on
internal battery.

> However, the PX-8 3.5" had 40 cylinders, with 67.5 tpi, instead of the
> common 80 cylinder 135 tpi of other 3.5" disks.
> Those 40 cylinder 3.5" drives are quite rare.
> I don't know about the track width; for reading, a PC can simply look
> at every other track.  And formatting a virgin disk and writing to it
> should work.  But, there is a definite possibility that RE-writing a
> PX-8 disk would result in one that the PX-8 couldn't handle (EXACTLY
> the same problem as RE-writing a 40 track 5.25" disk with an 80 track
> 5.25" drive)
>
Many of the drives have dead spots and need a manual push to start.  I
have two like that.  I suspect the
ceramic magnet lost its stuff over time.  When I have time the next
project will be a Atmega2650 running
a CF to via serial interface.  The drive table can be patched for a
larger (up to 8mb) drive.
>
> With appropriate format handling software on the PC, it should be
> possible for a PC connected using your system to work with actual
> Epson diskettes, and emulate the Epson external drives.
>
There are several software packages on the net to do the fake of the
disk via serial and manuals of the system to
explain the format.  Likely that software could do the earlier HX20 (and
friends) with minor tweaks.

Allison

Re: flashx20 - Floppy and screen for the Epson HX-20

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Norbert Kehrer via cctalk wrote:
I have not tested it, but I suppose, that also the PX-8 and PX-4 used the 
protocol,

because the protocol specification defines the following device numbers:
- HX-20: 0x20 (probably also used for the HC-20)
- PX-8:  0x22
- PX-4:  0x23


That is especially interesting.

It is probable that the HX-20 worked with the TF20 on a file level load 
and save, but the PX-8 was likely to work on a sector level.



The HC-20s that I had were Japanese machines brought to USA for some 
software develpment in Berkeley.  HudsonSoft?
The HX20 never caught on very well in USA.  It had a few dedicated 
applications, such as CableTV configuration. 
There was no technical documentation available.

I had a little bit of incomplete Japanese documentation.
During the time that I had some machines, the technical manual and 
protocol specification were unavailable in USA.


I don't remember the disk format for the TF20 external drives, and 
they were unavailable in USA.  IIRC, the only sample disk that I had used 
a form of the Microsoft "Stand-Alone BASIC", much closer to the NEC 
variants than the Coco.  (seek center directory, with short directory 
entries that included a starting cluster number, and a linked list Granule 
Allocation Table (similar to MS-DOS FAT, and early Mac disk format)

DSDD, with 16 256 byte sectors per track  (320K)


The Epson Geneva PX-8 had an external 3.5" floppy available, and CP/M!
However, the PX-8 3.5" had 40 cylinders, with 67.5 tpi, instead of the 
common 80 cylinder 135 tpi of other 3.5" disks.

Those 40 cylinder 3.5" drives are quite rare.
I don't know about the track width; for reading, a PC can simply look at 
every other track.  And formatting a virgin disk and writing to it should 
work.  But, there is a definite possibility that RE-writing a PX-8 disk 
would result in one that the PX-8 couldn't handle (EXACTLY the same 
problem as RE-writing a 40 track 5.25" disk with an 80 track 5.25" drive)



With appropriate format handling software on the PC, it should be 
possible for a PC connected using your system to work with actual Epson 
diskettes, and emulate the Epson external drives.




Thank you for creating this!
Now, I wish that I had been able to keep the HC-20s!

--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

THE GHOST IN ED'S COMPUTER

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

Hi - Tomasz   NO   not that  I  recreated what  happened when i was  going to 
send another  email but...  heh!   caught it in  time!   Seems sometimes  the  
prior  cut  segment stays in the    paste buffer thing.. 


Yes,    I was   worried   for a  while  also. 
 
 
In a message dated 12/16/2018 5:20:52 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
rto...@ceti.pl writes:

 
On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 05:06:06PM -0500, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:

> CORRECTION>>>   Should have  said  there are  some  days  I wish I
> could  cut  out HALF the nerve  fibers in my  hands to destroy them

Sorry about that.

However, there is a chance you (or your device) has been posessed by
a, uhm, a ghost. Judging by goog search results, AOL has mail related
security problem every even year and it is about time for "problem
2018".

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home **
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... **
** **
** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

Re: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963

[Tomasz Rola via cctalk]

On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 05:06:06PM -0500, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:
> CORRECTION>>>   Should have  said  there are  some  days  I wish I
> could  cut  out HALF the nerve  fibers in my  hands to destroy them

Sorry about that.

However, there is a chance you (or your device) has been posessed by
a, uhm, a ghost. Judging by goog search results, AOL has mail related
security problem every even year and it is about time for "problem
2018".

-- 
Regards,
Tomasz Rola

--
** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature.  **
** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home**
** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened...  **
** **
** Tomasz Rola  mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **

Re: HUNTING EXISTENCE OF NCR 304 COMPUTER PCB BOARD PIX IS THERE ONE OF THESE EVEN LEFT?

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

crickets?   does anyone  know what I am talking about?    Maybe this is  one of 
the great   unseen systems...


In a message dated 12/16/2018 3:10:09 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

 

HUNTING EXISTENCE OF NCR 304 COMPUTER PCB BOARD PIX IS THERE ONE OF THESE EVEN 
LEFT?

was...Re: 8-Update NOW I would like to get one of the little boards with the pdp 8 on a microprocessor that is a little single board computer too... for the museum but also to play

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

I  would  like to  get one of the   little  boards  with the  pdp 8 on a 
microprocessor that is a little  single board  computer  too...  for the museum 
 but  also  to  play  with...


In a message dated 12/16/2018 12:38:35 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

 


On 12/15/18 11:36 PM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote:

> However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an  
> 8/e out of  modern parts.

Redoing the CPU in obtanium TTL would be desirable.
 
 

HUNTING EXISTENCE OF NCR 304 COMPUTER PCB BOARD PIX IS THERE ONE OF THESE EVEN LEFT?

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

HUNTING EXISTENCE OF NCR 304 COMPUTER PCB BOARD PIX IS THERE ONE OF THESE EVEN 
LEFT?

Re: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

CORRECTION>>>   Should have  said 
there are  some  days  I wish I could  cut  out HALF the nerve  fibers in my  
hands to destroy them

 
In a message dated 12/16/2018 2:49:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

 
wdonze...@gmail.com et al
actually there are  some  days  I wish I could  cut  have the nerve  fibers in 
my  hands to destroy them.  Not a   good  time   but  some  days it is  what  
it  is...   beats  having no hands at all I  suppose.   Ed#


 
In a message dated 12/16/2018 2:42:51 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:
 
> Ed's having word salad for lunch. Again.

But the lunch was bad, so he wrote a bad review, but now regrets it.

--
Will

Re: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

wdonze...@gmail.com et al
actually there are  some  days  I wish I could  cut  have the nerve  fibers in 
my  hands to destroy them.  Not a   good  time   but  some  days it is  what  
it  is...   beats  having no hands at all I  suppose.   Ed#


 
In a message dated 12/16/2018 2:42:51 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:
 
> Ed's having word salad for lunch. Again.

But the lunch was bad, so he wrote a bad review, but now regrets it.

--
Will

ok but we did get some cool EAI stuff... sometimes I kist stuff as this in case there is similare interest or needs

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

MATERIAL
INGEST ADAMS ASSOCIATES COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963

HAVE ONE A LITTLE CUTE LOOKS AS NEW POCKET GUIDE I SEE ONE IN
 GOOGLE SCANNED FROM 67 SO DO NOT KNOW THIS NEEDS TO BE OR?

 ALSO A EAI POCKET CALENDAR APPOINTMENT REMINDER BUT AS NEW NO
 FASCINATING NOTES ALAS..

 ALSO A 67 EAI STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA SHEET. PURPLE DITTO REPRODUCED.

Re: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> Ed's having word salad for lunch.  Again.

But the lunch was bad, so he wrote a bad review, but now regrets it.

--
Will

Re: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

disregard  I have no  idea  what happened 
 
 sorry  folks


sometimes  i  go  to  cut and paste and  click and cut  things  wrong on a 
muscle in  fingers  twitches and  hammers  finger  down and ...
 
 
spaces   added   to authenticate     this is  really   me  and  not  a     
software  bot!
 
In a message dated 12/16/2018 1:38:16 PM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:
 
On 12/16/2018 02:05 PM, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 14:00 ED SHARPE via cctalk  wrote:
>
>> How to Remove Bad Yelp Reviews (and Report Fake Yelp Reviews)MATERIAL
>> INGEST ADAMS ASSOCIATES COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963
>>
>> HAVE ONE A LITTLE CUTE LOOKS AS NEW POCKET GUIDE I SEE ONE IN
>> GOOGLE SCANNED FROM 67 SO DO NOT KNOW THIS NEEDS TO BE OR?
>>
>> ALSO A EAI POCKET CALENDAR APPOINTMENT REMINDER BUT AS NEW NO
>> FASCINATING NOTES ALAS..
>>
>> ALSO A 67 STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA SHEET. PURPLE DITTO REPRODUCED.
>>
> What does this even mean!?

That he got hacked? Looks like maybe they took some file 
from his system and mailed it out, with a little of their 
own text mixed into the Subject: line?

Jon

Jon

Re: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963

[geneb via cctalk]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Kyle Owen via cctalk wrote:


On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 14:00 ED SHARPE via cctalk 

How to Remove Bad Yelp Reviews (and Report Fake Yelp Reviews)MATERIAL
INGEST   ADAMS ASSOCIATES   COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963

HAVE ONE  A  LITTLE  CUTE  LOOKS  AS   NEW POCKET  GUIDEI   SEE ONE IN
GOOGLE  SCANNED   FROM  67  SO DO NOT KNOW THIS  NEEDS TO BE  OR?

ALSO  A  EAI  POCKET  CALENDAR  APPOINTMENT  REMINDER  BUTAS  NEW  NO
FASCINATING NOTES  ALAS..

ALSO A  67 STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA  SHEET.  PURPLEDITTO   REPRODUCED.



What does this even mean!?



Ed's having word salad for lunch.  Again.

g.


--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Adrian Stoness via cctalk wrote:

did ed get hacked?


Well, it's definitely his typing.

Ed,
if you are being held hostage, send a post without extra 
spaces/characters.




On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 2:05 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk 
wrote:


On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 14:00 ED SHARPE via cctalk 

How to Remove Bad Yelp Reviews (and Report Fake Yelp Reviews)MATERIAL
INGEST   ADAMS ASSOCIATES   COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963

HAVE ONE  A  LITTLE  CUTE  LOOKS  AS   NEW POCKET  GUIDEI   SEE ONE

IN

GOOGLE  SCANNED   FROM  67  SO DO NOT KNOW THIS  NEEDS TO BE  OR?

ALSO  A  EAI  POCKET  CALENDAR  APPOINTMENT  REMINDER  BUTAS  NEW  NO
FASCINATING NOTES  ALAS..

ALSO A  67 STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA  SHEET.  PURPLEDITTO   REPRODUCED.



What does this even mean!?

Re: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:

How to Remove Bad Yelp Reviews (and Report Fake Yelp Reviews)MATERIAL INGEST?? 
??ADAMS ASSOCIATES?? ??COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963
??
HAVE ONE?? A?? LITTLE?? CUTE?? LOOKS?? AS?? ??NEW POCKET?? GUIDE?? ?? I?? ??SEE 
ONE IN GOOGLE?? SCANNED?? ??FROM?? 67?? SO DO NOT KNOW THIS?? NEEDS TO BE?? OR?
??
ALSO?? A?? EAI?? POCKET?? CALENDAR?? APPOINTMENT?? REMINDER?? BUT?? ?? AS?? 
NEW?? NO?? FASCINATING NOTES?? ALAS..
??
ALSO A?? 67 STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA?? SHEET.?? PURPLE?? ?? DITTO?? ??REPRODUCED.


Could you rephrase your post?
(as a query, or as a statement?)

Do you have bad YELP reviews?
Do you have YELP reviews?

Does YELP review mailing list posts?

Re: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

did ed get hacked?

On Sun, Dec 16, 2018 at 2:05 PM Kyle Owen via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 14:00 ED SHARPE via cctalk  wrote:
>
> >
> > How to Remove Bad Yelp Reviews (and Report Fake Yelp Reviews)MATERIAL
> > INGEST   ADAMS ASSOCIATES   COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963
> >
> > HAVE ONE  A  LITTLE  CUTE  LOOKS  AS   NEW POCKET  GUIDEI   SEE ONE
> IN
> > GOOGLE  SCANNED   FROM  67  SO DO NOT KNOW THIS  NEEDS TO BE  OR?
> >
> > ALSO  A  EAI  POCKET  CALENDAR  APPOINTMENT  REMINDER  BUTAS  NEW  NO
> > FASCINATING NOTES  ALAS..
> >
> > ALSO A  67 STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA  SHEET.  PURPLEDITTO   REPRODUCED.
> >
>
> What does this even mean!?
>
> >
>

Re: remove bad yelpMATERIAL INGEST. adams associates COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963

[Kyle Owen via cctalk]

On Sun, Dec 16, 2018, 14:00 ED SHARPE via cctalk 
> How to Remove Bad Yelp Reviews (and Report Fake Yelp Reviews)MATERIAL
> INGEST   ADAMS ASSOCIATES   COMPUTER CHARACTERISTICS QUARTERLY 1963
>
> HAVE ONE  A  LITTLE  CUTE  LOOKS  AS   NEW POCKET  GUIDEI   SEE ONE IN
> GOOGLE  SCANNED   FROM  67  SO DO NOT KNOW THIS  NEEDS TO BE  OR?
>
> ALSO  A  EAI  POCKET  CALENDAR  APPOINTMENT  REMINDER  BUTAS  NEW  NO
> FASCINATING NOTES  ALAS..
>
> ALSO A  67 STOCK HOLDERS AGENDA  SHEET.  PURPLEDITTO   REPRODUCED.
>

What does this even mean!?

>

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[geneb via cctalk]

On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote:

made, but if they are still being made they might not be too bad.  I'm not 
sure 3D-printed housings would be strong enough for this, but maybe if ABS


PLA is actually a stiffer plastic than ABS.  That being said, PETG might 
be a better choice due to the heat found inside the enclosure.  ABS can be 
pretty difficult to print if you're not working with a heated enclosure.


g.


--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: 8-Update

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 12/15/18 11:36 PM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk wrote:

> However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an  
> 8/e out of  modern parts.

Redoing the CPU in obtanium TTL would be desirable.

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Dec 15, 2018, at 1:55 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 12/15/18 10:01 AM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk wrote:
>> FRAM or MRAM.  I make extensive use of them in my projects.
>> 
>> Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v).  As I recall they run ~$20/ea for 4Mb 
>> (512K x 8 or 256K x 16).
> 
> As neither MRAM nor FRAM requires a write-after-read refresh, I fail to
> see the "realism" in this that couldn't be satisfied with simple
> battery-backed RAM or even flash-backed RAM.
> 
> Yes, MRAM is magnetic, but ti's not the same principle as real core.

The key question is what the level of accuracy of the emulation is.

If you simply want non-volatile memory, the obvious answer is SRAM with battery 
backup and a small FPGA to do the interfacing.

If you need to emulate the destructive read, the same but with a slightly more 
complex FPGA. 

It's hard to see -- other than "because you can" -- why it's useful to emulate 
the destructive read.  Read/modify/write will work without the destructive 
read, so long as a write simply overwrites what was in the word.  The only 
place I can think of where the destructive read propery is useful is in CDC 
6000 series peripheral processor memory, at least when you're debugging PP 
programs that get stuck -- a memory dump taken after a restart will show a zero 
at the point of the hang.

paul

Re: 8-Update

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 12/16/18 1:14 AM, Paul Birkel via cctalk wrote:

I don't have a 3D printer,


I've found that maker spaces and some computer stores (notably 
Microcenter) have 3D printers and seem quite happy to help people use 
them.  (Membership, training, feeds not withstanding.)


I've also heard of some 3D printer owners printing things and mailing 
them to people.  I know a guy who knows people.  If you want help.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 12/15/2018 11:19 PM, Rod G8DGR via cctech wrote:



However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an  8/e 
out of  modern parts.


Finally the big one – Omnibus and the connectors its made from. A 3D printing 
candidate?
I’m going to autopsy a busted connector and see how they are constructed inside.
Yup, this will be a problem.  A couple decades ago, there 
was a very common technology, press-fit backplanes.  You 
made a PC board with all the interconnect on it (power + 
signals) and pressed-in contact fingers.  Then, connector 
housings were pressed onto the contacts. I don't know if 
anybody still makes these contacts.  It would be hugely 
expensive to have custom ones made, but if they are still 
being made they might not be too bad.  I'm not sure 
3D-printed housings would be strong enough for this, but 
maybe if ABS they would.  Of course, there might actually 
still be somebody making clones of the DEC connectors.  They 
used basically the same design for PDP-8, PDP-11, KL10, VAX, 
etc.  Certainly, there were people cloning them back in the 
1980's.  Winchester made the official ones for DEC.

Objectives
The basic board set as original. M8300, M8310, M8320 etc.
Same form factor
Plug compatible – but board contents can differ from original
Well, this could all be done with one FPGA, but if you want 
to do each PC board separately, a modest CPLD or small FPGA 
would certainly do each board's functionality.


Jon

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

Anyone building  8 omnibus  batter  backed up core  replacement  currently  
that  is  available off the  shelf reasonably for   8 m,e and  f? (( Smaller  
size  board  than the   8a   would accept   for memory as I  remember..))


 
Have  a 8 m or  f  in my  den on a  shelf...   as  as I  best  remember  it  20 
 years ago  had  4 k or   flaky  core in it.  might  be  fun  to play  with. 
 
Alas  there  might  me other things  wrong on other boards  by now  too
 
Ed#
 
 
 
In a message dated 12/16/2018 6:44:55 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:

 
On 12/15/2018 01:01 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctech wrote:

> FRAM or MRAM. I make extensive use of them in my projects.
>
> Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v). As I recall they run ~$20/ea for 4Mb 
> (512K x 8 or 256K x 16).
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>> On Dec 15, 2018, at 1:22 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>>
>> I have an idea to produce an MM-8 clone using RAM that acts like core when 
>> turned off.
>> Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this?
>>
>> Rod Smallwood
>>
>>
My call on this is that cmos static ram 4Bit wide does the job well I
have 32K of it in my PDP-8 to
get past possible failure of hard to find and get core.  A Panasonic
BR-1 lithium cell has enough
capacity at the measured drain for about 6-7 years and the Dallas power
management chip
makes it a non hack.  Flash, EEprom and Magnetic FRAM and MRAM) types
have many unacceptable
properties for a random access read write memory.  It makes no
difference to the PDP8(ILEFMA)
that read is not destructive as it will write back as needed anyway.

There is a design on the 'net for using CMOS ram in a straight forward
buildable array for Omnibus
with battery back up that is fine.  Don;t get wraped around the axle
about RMW as any sufficiently
fast ram can do that without wearout.  And compared to core it doesn't
take much speed.

EEprom and Flash work fine for read mostly disks or disk simulators.

Allison

RE: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[Rod G8DGR via cctalk]

Sent from Mail for Windows 10

From: allison via cctech
Sent: 16 December 2018 03:08
To: cct...@classiccmp.org
Subject: Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

On 12/15/2018 01:01 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctech wrote:
> FRAM or MRAM.  I make extensive use of them in my projects.
>
> Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v).  As I recall they run ~$20/ea for 4Mb 
> (512K x 8 or 256K x 16).
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>> On Dec 15, 2018, at 1:22 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>>
>> I have an idea to produce an MM-8  clone using RAM that acts like core when 
>> turned off.
>> Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this?
>>
>> Rod Smallwood
>>
>>
My call on this is that cmos static ram 4Bit wide does the job well I
have 32K of it in my PDP-8 to
get past possible failure of hard to find and get core.  A Panasonic
BR-1 lithium cell has enough
capacity at the measured drain for about 6-7 years and the Dallas power
management chip
makes it a non hack.  Flash, EEprom and Magnetic FRAM and MRAM) types
have many unacceptable
properties for a random access read write memory.  It makes no
difference to the PDP8(ILEFMA)
that read is not destructive as it will write back as needed anyway.

There is a design on the 'net for using CMOS ram in a straight forward
buildable array for Omnibus
with battery back up that is fine.  Don;t get wraped around the axle
about RMW as any sufficiently
fast ram can do that without wearout.  And compared to core it doesn't
take much speed.

EEprom and Flash work fine for read mostly disks or disk simulators.

Allison

Sheesh!! Well what a response. 
This stems from my (so far) successful major over haul of my PDP-8/e.
I found one failed 7474 and one failed 8881 – replaced and now working.
I think I have the rim loader toggled in and will attempt to send a paper tape 
image from Hyperterm
Strangely I do have at least three genuine complete 4k memory sets.

However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an  8/e 
out of  modern parts.
As you all know I make front panels so that’s not a problem. 
I did manage to copy my (distorted) bezel in resin.
A friend has been able to 3D print toggle switch leavers that fit and work.
Vince Sylngstat has done a console board PCB  layout.
Power supply clearly not a problem.
So what’s left? Case?  
Well I have one of those and I suspect a sheet metal shop would not have a 
problem

Finally the big one – Omnibus and the connectors its made from. A 3D printing 
candidate?
I’m going to autopsy a busted connector and see how they are constructed inside.

Objectives
The basic board set as original. M8300, M8310, M8320 etc.
Same form factor
Plug compatible – but board contents can differ from original

The idea is replace one item at time until you no longer have any DEC parts.
Yup a FAKE-8

I may even need a label “No part in this PDP-8/e computer was manufactured by 
digital equipment corporation”

Rod Smallwood

flashx20 - Floppy and screen for the Epson HX-20

[Norbert Kehrer via cctalk]

/On Sat, Dec 15, 2018 at 5:47 PM Norbert Kehrer via cctalk />/
> wrote: />>/With that, you get a big 
screen (the PC monitor) and disk space for />>/programs and data on the PC's hard disk, which can 
then also be used for />>/data and program exchange. /
On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Jason T via cctalk wrote:

/This is great - thank you for writing it! I have at least one HX-20. />/IIRC it 
was used for Motorola radio programming and had custom ROMS. />/Do you know what 
other Epson portables (if any) used the same protocol? /

On Sun, 16 Dec 2018, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

The Epson HC-20 probably did.
It was essentially the same machine, in silver-grey, instead of beige, 
with both English and katakana keyboard and character generator ROMs.


I have not tested it, but I suppose, that also the PX-8 and PX-4 used the 
protocol,
because the protocol specification defines the following device numbers:
- HX-20: 0x20 (probably also used for the HC-20)
- PX-8:  0x22
- PX-4:  0x23

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk]

> On Dec 15, 2018, at 7:09 PM, allison via cctech  wrote:
> 
> On 12/15/2018 01:01 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctech wrote:
>> FRAM or MRAM.  I make extensive use of them in my projects.
>> 
>> Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v).  As I recall they run ~$20/ea for 4Mb 
>> (512K x 8 or 256K x 16).
>> 
>> TTFN - Guy
>> 
>>> On Dec 15, 2018, at 1:22 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have an idea to produce an MM-8  clone using RAM that acts like core when 
>>> turned off.
>>> Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this?
>>> 
>>> Rod Smallwood
>>> 
>>> 
>   Flash, EEprom and Magnetic FRAM and MRAM) types
> have many unacceptable
> properties for a random access read write memory. 

I think you’re mistaken about FRAM and MRAM.  They are byte oriented devices
and are designed to replace SRAM + battery.  Which in my mind makes them
preferable as they reduce parts count.  The current MRAM has unlimited write
endurance (same as SRAM) and depending upon the part is 35-55ns access/cycle
time.  FRAM has a similar access time but requires an internal restore so it’s 
cycle
time is about 2x (one of the reasons I prefer MRAM now).

TTFN - Guy

Re: Core memory emulator using non volatile ram.

[allison via cctalk]

On 12/15/2018 01:01 PM, Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctech wrote:
> FRAM or MRAM.  I make extensive use of them in my projects.
>
> Everspin has a few (all SMT and 3.3v).  As I recall they run ~$20/ea for 4Mb 
> (512K x 8 or 256K x 16).
>
> TTFN - Guy
>
>> On Dec 15, 2018, at 1:22 AM, Rod G8DGR via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>>
>> I have an idea to produce an MM-8  clone using RAM that acts like core when 
>> turned off.
>> Can anybody suggest a chip that will do this?
>>
>> Rod Smallwood
>>
>>
My call on this is that cmos static ram 4Bit wide does the job well I
have 32K of it in my PDP-8 to
get past possible failure of hard to find and get core.  A Panasonic
BR-1 lithium cell has enough
capacity at the measured drain for about 6-7 years and the Dallas power
management chip
makes it a non hack.  Flash, EEprom and Magnetic FRAM and MRAM) types
have many unacceptable
properties for a random access read write memory.  It makes no
difference to the PDP8(ILEFMA)
that read is not destructive as it will write back as needed anyway.

There is a design on the 'net for using CMOS ram in a straight forward
buildable array for Omnibus
with battery back up that is fine.  Don;t get wraped around the axle
about RMW as any sufficiently
fast ram can do that without wearout.  And compared to core it doesn't
take much speed.

EEprom and Flash work fine for read mostly disks or disk simulators.

Allison

RE: 8-Update

[Paul Birkel via cctalk]

>-Original Message-
>-From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Rod G8DGR 
>via cctalk
>-Sent: Sunday, December 16, 2018 2:36 AM
>-To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>-Subject: 8-Update
>
>Sheesh!! 
>Well what a response. 
>This stems from my (so far) successful major over haul of my PDP-8/e.
>I found one failed 7474 and one failed 8881 – replaced and now working.
>I think I have the rim loader toggled in and will attempt to send a paper tape 
>image from Hyperterm
>Strangely I do have at least three genuine complete 4k memory sets.
>
>The eightstoration will continue.
>
>However I began to think would it be possible to create a close copy of an  
>8/e out of  modern parts.
>As you all know I make front panels so that’s not a problem. 
>I did manage to copy my (distorted) bezel in resin.
>A friend has been able to 3D print toggle switch leavers that fit and work.
>...

Could you (or your fried) tell us more about "A friend has been able to 3D 
print toggle switch leavers that fit and work"?
I have need to do the same :-<.  And I don't have a 3D printer, either.

paul