Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
On 7/6/2019 7:59 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: Not many collectors back when the Apple1 came out! While the CHEAP 6502 is remembered with the Apple we must not forget that the 16 pin 4K dram really made that computer work. Regardless of the architecture, 32 KB is needed to do any useful computing work, and 1975 was the start of affordable memory. PS: Ben's 18 bit computer is BETTER than a PDP 11, faster, simpler and with *2 MORE Blinking lights and Switches*. 1.25 us Core (2.5 us instruction time) vs the orginal PDP 11. did I say more blinking lights. :)
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
Not many collectors back when the Apple1 came out! Not sure either if many understood what that single board computer would birth in the way of a line of follow ons. Sometimes the future is not known! Ed# In a message dated 7/6/2019 6:51:40 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cctalk@classiccmp.org writes: It ((If)) the Apple I was so great, why did the COLLECTORS not buy them then?
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
On 7/6/2019 1:12 AM, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: At 08:21 PM 5/07/2019 -0400, you wrote: You could be sitting on $400K-$1,000,000. That's the current range of decent-condition Apple 1 boards. I just _love_ being reminded of the circumstances of my NOT buying an Apple I, and what that mistake cost me. http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm Guy Just like the stock market, Next week it could be vintage WWI army boots worn my Mother Inlaws. It the Apple I was so great, why did the COLLECTORS not buy them then? Now a 6501 CPU would be worth a pretty penny. I wonder what has more sales Saturday July 6 2019, A PDP/8 in some form, A PI computer, or a 6502 Home brew computer? Ben. Ps: I have a one of kind 18 bit computer lurking in a DE1 FPGA card, and I am not getting any offers for its sale. Replace your PDP-8 with something bigger. :) 1.5 uS core memory cycle. PPS: A Deluxe 20 bit computer coming REAL SOON.
Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
On Sun, 7 Jul 2019 at 00:23, Mattis Lind via cctalk wrote: > > When I visited Bletchley park and TNMOC I went by train from London. Euston > I believe. From Gatwick there are trains to Victoria which are quite quick. Me too. But then, I lived in London. Still took nearly 2 hours. But I think you and Peter have missed or not registered Bill's arrival time. To get to Bletchley from Gatwick by train would definitely be my preferred way, but I doubt it's possible starting at 11PM, and to be back again within 17h... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
On Sat, 6 Jul 2019 at 09:12, Guy Dunphy via cctalk wrote: > > I just _love_ being reminded of the circumstances of my NOT buying an Apple > I, and what that mistake cost me. > > http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm Sad reading... -- Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053
Re: Question about Apple ///
In a message dated 7/5/2019 11:51:16 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cct...@classiccmp.org writes: Bad video memory? Our Lisa does that too... I just leave it shit off (grin!) On Sat, 6 Jul 2019, ED SHATNER via cctalk wrote: Oppsthat was supposed to say shut off! Why? "shut off" doesn't convey the mood of a bad video display.
Re: Email delivery protocols / methods.
Those who quibble about the ftp being a separate entity from mail protocol would do well to look at RFC 524 from 1973. There, the MAIL command is implemented within the ftp structure (that is, it is an ftp command). I've found it interesting that 524 never addresses the matter of data representation: (7 bit ASCII PDP-10), (8-bit IBM EBCDIC), (6-bit Univac Fieldata), (9-bit MULTICS), etc. This makes sense when viewed in the light of RFC 354 (ftp), as 354 makes provision for non-7-bit ASCII codes. --Chuck
Re: Email delivery protocols / methods.
> On Jul 5, 2019, at 5:05 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk > wrote: > > Here's pot stirrer for a holiday Friday afternoon: > > How many different protocols / methods can we collectively come up with for > how email can be transferred? > > I'm primarily thinking about between servers (MTA-to-MTA). But I'm also > willing to accept servers and clients (MTA-to-MUA). Where you can / could > run at least one server yourself. There's the MAIL-11 protocol (end to end, no MTAs) and the DECmail protocol which may be some OSI-like thing, I'm not sure anymore. For real strangeness there is the PLATO mail protocol, which involves writing the mail into files, which are then extracted from PLATO into the OS file system by a periodic batch job, then sent to another system via file transfer (FTP or a predecessor), then pushed into the PLATO file system, then picked up by a mail agent at that end. Ugh. paul
Re: Email delivery protocols / methods.
Obviously that message wasn't supposed to go to the list. I forget how the list re-writes the message headers like that. Sorry about that. Dave
Re: Email delivery protocols / methods.
On 7/6/19 8:46 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > So here's one I'm not sure anyone else will catch: TFTP has an email mode! I knew about that one. :-) Did anyone other than CSR ever use it? Not much airplane news. I've spent some time chasing down wheels and brakes for the Galaxie. The designer is planning to use hubs and brakes designed for trailers and farm implement tires on his. I was preferring more aircraft parts so I went off to find what I could in that direction. It was more difficult than expected but, in the end, I have a plan that I think will work well. The final part is axles and the designer says that with the specs I've found, he can machine up what I need. Been hearing more interest in running a KiCAD class at the MakerSpace so the past few days I've been putting together a more detailed outline of what I want to do there. One of the things I came across is "back annotation" which is something I've wanted a few times. This is where I do design-work on the circuit board and push that back to the schematic. Where I've wanted it in the past is in wiring up connectors or the LEDs on the indicator panel boards. In many cases I don't particularly care which goes to where as far as the electronics go but I want to make my life easier with the board layout. On the QSIC I've had that with wiring which bus drivers go to which bus signals and I will have it big time with wiring between the FPGA and the bus. Except for a couple signals that need to go to clock inputs on the FPGA, the rest all just go to any old I/O pin. Need to go learn this back annotation thing before starting that. I have tinkered with the QSIC circuit board design some more and have the bus drivers all routed. I didn't know about back annotation so I just did that by hand. That is, I look at the circuit board to see what signals are crossed and flip back to the schematic to swap signals around and then back to the circuit board until everything routed easily as possible. It was a pain but it's done and seems like a good job. I've also taken a stab at routing the signals from the FPGA to the memory chip. That's a new and interesting challenge. I've almost been able to do it with a 4-layer board. That plastic supply place that I'd talked about? Turns out I had a brain fart reading their webpage and it's not in New London like I was thinking but Londonderry. That means an hour and a half drive rather than a half hour drive. Sigh. At least it's still in the state. I heard a bit more from Greg up in Kantishna. He had an AVM and a small brain bleed but says it's all fixed up now. Still, he's grounded for at least a year and was asking about fill-in pilots. I thought about it some and decided that I could go up later in the summer say August sometime, and then finish out the season. He'd put the work out to a bunch of people and, last news I had, he was covered for now. And, holy crap, there was another accident in Ketchikan. No fatalities on this one, fortunately, but it was the company that shares the dock with us so I almost certainly know the pilot. Damn. They'd just rebuilt that plane last winter too. I hope your summer is going well and you got lots of wood out of that tree that almost crushed your house. Dave
Re: Question about Apple ///
Oppsthat was supposed to say shut off! In a message dated 7/5/2019 11:51:16 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cct...@classiccmp.org writes: Bad video memory? Our Lisa does that too... I just leave it shit off (grin!)
Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
lördag 6 juli 2019 skrev Bill Degnan via cctech : > Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I have a > 17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at > bletchley park about an hour north. I see I can rent a car from the > airport and drive to a hotel near the museum. There are a few hotels with > 24/7 desks. Concerns? Total time in England is 17 hours, 8 of which > needed for sleep, plus travel to and from the airport and museum. Not sure > how efficient the car rental return process is, etc. Need some buffer for > unknowns > Thanks in advance When I visited Bletchley park and TNMOC I went by train from London. Euston I believe. From Gatwick there are trains to Victoria which are quite quick. I have never driven myself in London, but has been going with taxi a number of times from the airports in the London area. The traffic can be quite bad. Gatwick is south of London and Bletchley is north of London so expect some queues depending on time. /Mattis > Bill >
Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I have a 17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at bletchley park about an hour north. I see I can rent a car from the airport and drive to a hotel near the museum. There are a few hotels with 24/7 desks. Concerns? Total time in England is 17 hours, 8 of which needed for sleep, plus travel to and from the airport and museum. Not sure how efficient the car rental return process is, etc. Need some buffer for unknowns Thanks in advance Bill
Re: Wtd: advice upcoming visit to Bletchley Park / comp museum
On Sat, Jul 06, 2019 at 12:54:28PM +0300, Bill Degnan via cctech wrote: > Hi...I am arriving at Gatwick Airport this weds evening1045pm and I have a > 17 hour layover. I'd like to visit the national computer museum at > bletchley park about an hour north. [...] It's actually *two* hours north; three if you want to add a safety margin. Remember the old saying: 200 years is a long time in the USA, and 200 miles is a long way in the UK. I advise against driving, especially if you're unfamiliar with British roads. It will be both slower and more expensive than the train for this particular route because London is in the way. Petrol works out at over $7/gal, and you get to navigate the infamous M25 motorway-cum-car-park. It's debatable whether it will be more convenient. There are railway stations at both Gatwick and Bletchley. Bletchley Park is a 3 minute walk from the station. If you do the standard tourist thing at the ticket office/machine, they'll screw you to the tune of £42.10 for an "any permitted" return ticket, which sends you on the Gatwick Express to the wrong side of London, the Tube back across London, and then another train to Bletchley. More changes between more modes of transport mean more risk of things going wrong. A "via Ken[sington] Olympia" ticket is £28.80, which would be my preferred route anyway. Gatwick to Clapham Junction, a quick change to the next platform, then onward to Bletchley. You do not need to stop at or change at Olympia. Both train routes take about two hours; the Olympia one is less frequent and slower by a few minutes according to the optimistic routing models which think the Tube pays any sort of attention to the timetable, but tends to be faster in practice. You might consider buying the more expensive "any permitted" ticket anyway as insurance to give you more flexibility if things go wrong. Have a play with https://traintimes.org.uk/GTW/BLY, but if you don't change the date, it won't show you Olympia routes because they've closed the West London Line this weekend, ostensibly for maintenance, but possibly just spite. This won't be the case on Thursday when you're travelling.
Re: Email delivery protocols / methods.
> From: Grant Taylor > How many different protocols / methods can we collectively come up with > for how email can be transferred?' Hey, this is the classic computers list, so you should only list early stuff, (say pre-1990), and leave out all the modern crap (but I repeat myself). So here's one I'm not sure anyone else will catch: TFTP has an email mode! Why? Well, FTP is gargantuan (compared to TFTP) and needs a working TCP to boot, so if all you have is a working TFTP, and no email... Noel
Re: Question about Apple ///
> > > > > > > Looks like this: > > https://share.icloud.com/photos/0NHNkEG9ssPsi65ojivBteKaQ > > > > Does this failure mode ring any bells? Obviously the video signal is > being > > generated well enough to sync a composite output. Any idea whether I > > should start by replacing the CPU or the ROMs? > > > > The Apple /// is infamous for having chips work their way out of their > sockets due to heat, so you might start off checking for that. > > -- Jecel > Aside from the chips/sockets fix, verify that the keyboard light comes on. If the bulb is dead the system will not boot (someone can "2nd" this). Verify that the keyboard reset key is not stuck. Overall I'd find a working system and compare/contrast voltages at key obvious points. Verify your boot media and disk drive are OK by comparing with a known-working system. Where are you located? Maybe someone near you can offer to assist. Bill
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
At 08:21 PM 5/07/2019 -0400, you wrote: >You could be sitting on $400K-$1,000,000. That's the current range of >decent-condition Apple 1 boards. I just _love_ being reminded of the circumstances of my NOT buying an Apple I, and what that mistake cost me. http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm Guy
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
What are the replicas gong for Evan? A perfect reproduction -- for example a Mimeo will entirely date-code-correct components -- can go for four figures. Most repros/replicas aren't at that level.
Re: Question about Apple ///
Bad video memory? Our Lisa does that too... I just leave it shit off (grin!) Ed#In a message dated 7/5/2019 2:28:31 PM US Mountain Standard Time, cct...@classiccmp.org writes: Adam Thornton wrote on Fri, 5 Jul 2019 11:38:56 -0700 > I have an Apple /// that I've had for many years; it's never worked. > > When you power it up, you get a checkerboard screen, where half the squares > are solid white, and the other half have a little mosaic pattern in them. > > Looks like this: > https://share.icloud.com/photos/0NHNkEG9ssPsi65ojivBteKaQ > > Does this failure mode ring any bells? Obviously the video signal is being > generated well enough to sync a composite output. Any idea whether I > should start by replacing the CPU or the ROMs? You have 40 by 24 very crisp characters there, so I would guess everything about the video is ok. DRAMs are supposed to have random data in them when power is first applied but that is not normally the case. Instead half of the bits tend to always come up as 0 and the other half as 1. These are normally in alternating rows inside the DRAM (all 1s in one row and all 0s in the next row) which often leads to a checkerboard pattern when used as a frame buffer. Normally the various DRAMs in a byte don't have the exact same pattern so you might get different colors or characters than 00h and FFh. This indicates that the processor never wrote anything to the framebuffer, so a bad CPU or ROM is likely though other chips could also cause the software to not execute properly. Given the Apple /// design it is very likely that all the clocks are good. Another defect that leads to a similar visual effect is if the character ROM is bad, but then you tend to have a uniform screen and not the checkerboard. The Apple /// is infamous for having chips work their way out of their sockets due to heat, so you might start off checking for that. -- Jecel
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
real or replica? Real! That's the whole point. we might like a replica for display..oddly though with the thousands of piles of boards heck we may even have a real one... never bothered to look for one in the STUFF! My classic mode is if I do not know what it is put it in a box and look at later...and that stuff goes back to 1979 Ed# You could be sitting on $400K-$1,000,000. That's the current range of decent-condition Apple 1 boards.
Re: Question about Apple ///
The first 15,000, or so, Apple ///s had a problem where the very large, dense, poorly mechanically-supported motherboard would warp as it heated up after power-on. That resulted in ICs popping up in sockets enough to break contact, as well as micro-cracks in printed circuit board traces. The warping would occur after about 10 - 15 minutes badly enough to cause the problems. Apple quietly replaced those systems when people brought them in, including mine. If any of the ICs on your board have popped up enough to cause problems, reinserting them may not be enough to fix the problem. High humidity and fine dust can cause socket contacts to become corroded or dirty, making operation of the computer flaky. Micro-cracks occur as the board warps while heating up and stretches the traces on the expanding side of the board. They open when expansion is sufficient and close when the board cools down enough, generally causing operation to cease and resume after a fairly constant amount of of time being powered on and powered off, dependent on the ambient temperature. The warmer it is, the shorter the time, and vice versa when it’s cooler. One potential solution, if the warping is occurring, is to remove the board and drill the mounting holes out to slightly enlarge them. Then, when remounting the board, don’t fully tighten the screws, allowing the board to “float” and expand without pushing against the screws and warping. It’s possible that at least one hole is being used as a connection to the metal base as a frame ground, which helps reduce RF emissions that might interfere with very sensitive devices, especially nearby and/or on the same AC power circuit. Not tightening associated screws might prevent that interference-reduction from occurring, but, that’s secondary to solving the failure to boot. ICs can be swapped out one at a time with those in a known working board, if one IC has failed. However, extreme care in not bending any pins when reinserting them must be performed. If more than one has failed, the combinatorics of the number of swaps needed increase exponentially with the number of failed components. Use of an o scope, logic analyzer, etc., along with extensive digital signal troubleshooting knowledge (especially without documentation, including schematics and timing diagrams) may be the only recourse. Should you or any of the IM Force be caught or killed, The Secretary will disavow any knowledge of your actions. This device will self-destruct in five seconds. Good luck, Mr. Phelps. FFSHSHSHSHKIKIKIKIK!!! On Fri, Jul 5, 2019 at 12:39 PM Adam Thornton via cctech < cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote: > I have an Apple /// that I've had for many years; it's never worked. > > When you power it up, you get a checkerboard screen, where half the squares > are solid white, and the other half have a little mosaic pattern in them. > > Looks like this: > https://share.icloud.com/photos/0NHNkEG9ssPsi65ojivBteKaQ > > Does this failure mode ring any bells? Obviously the video signal is being > generated well enough to sync a composite output. Any idea whether I > should start by replacing the CPU or the ROMs? > > Adam >
Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
When do you ever get a photo op with a bunch of apple 1 systems (which I hope is a thing). Definitely! I thought the subject was a typo until I saw the sender lol :)
