Re: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card

[Sean Ellis via cctalk]

Well, thanks for all the help guys - Finally narrowed it down to a
JE1078 on Stason:
https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/io-cards/I-L/JAMECO-ELECTRONIC-COMPONENTS-Multi-I-O-card-JE1078.html

I can believe this thing was made in Taiwan - I had to repair probably
1/4 of all the joints on the card because they all had gone dry or had
holes in the joints. Have you ever seen solder bubble like boiling
water? That's how bad the original solder on this card was. It also
absolutely stank the whole way through...

On 10/16/20, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  wrote:
> On 10/16/20 4:23 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
>> On Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 3:41 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk
>> 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Is "QC OK" the brand name?   :-)
>>>
>>
>> Clearly we need a QC OK stickers reproduced onto a T Shirt for the next
>> time we can get together...
>
> Rivaled only by "Inspected by No. 8" and "FCC ID"
>
> --Chuck
>
>

Re: DEC ADV11-D Analog to Digital converter with DMA

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

On 10/16/20 5:34 PM, Mark Matlock via cctech wrote:

I recently acquired an ADV11-D Qbus A/D board and having been working on a 
RSX11M+ driver for it. It is similar enough to the ADV11-C that the driver I 
wrote for the -C works ok, but the -D is DMA capable.

 It seems to have two extra CSR registers in addition to the CSR, and read 
buffer. Does anyone have documentation for this board? It is mentioned in the 
Oct. 88 Microsystems Option Guide and both RSX and VMS supported it. It was 
also mentioned in the Dec 92 Real Time Products Technical manual.

   It has a 40 pin IDC connector that appears to have some amount of 
differences from the ADV11-C and no where have I seen any info on the DMA 
capability.

Does anyone have a ADV11-D user manual or XXDP source code for testing it?

Thanks,
Mark


I just picked a AAV11-D D/A Board for which documentation is also 
scarce. The general design may be similar.  I should be able to reverse 
engineer the analog/digital output section for pin-outs. Lacking 
manuals/source code, if someone has an existing driver or software in 
binary, I would be willing to disassemble that for its secrets.  Perhaps 
these boards mimic the methods used by ADAC or Data Translation used for 
their Qbus products.  Their documentation may also give some insight on 
how to setup these CSR's.


Regards,
Jerry

Re: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/16/20 4:23 PM, Warner Losh via cctalk wrote:
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 3:41 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
> wrote:
> 
>> Is "QC OK" the brand name?   :-)
>>
> 
> Clearly we need a QC OK stickers reproduced onto a T Shirt for the next
> time we can get together...

Rivaled only by "Inspected by No. 8" and "FCC ID"

--Chuck

Re: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967?

[Steve Malikoff via cctalk]

> That is way smaller than the AGS.
> Dwight
>
> 
> From: cctalk  on behalf of Gavin Scott via 
> cctalk 
> Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:04 AM
> To: rice43 ; General Discussion: On-Topic and 
> Off-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967?
>
> Or was it really just a calculator? The mode list in the ad kinda
> suggests it wasn't programmable so the human operator may have been
> required to be the program and the rest of the "system".
>
> On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 4:23 AM rice43 via cctalk  
> wrote:
>>
>>
>> -- Original Message --
>> From: "Steve Malikoff via cctalk" 
>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
>> Sent: Friday, 16 Oct, 2020 At 08:02
>> Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967?
>> I was idly browsing early editions of Computer World journal on Google
>> newspapers and found an announcement
>> and picture of the '449', an experimental aerospace computer built by
>> Control Data in 1967 and touted as
>> "the world's smallest computer" at 4" x 4" x 9", of which the logic part
>> is a 4" cube and the rest is the battery.
>> It's on page 3 of Computer World Sep 20 1967:
>> https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=v_xunPV0uK0C=19670920=frontpage=en
>> 
>> It seems to me it may have been an analogous machine to the Apollo AGS
>> perhaps and would like to know a bit more
>> about it, but I've only been able to find a brief mention of the '449-2
>> Special Miniature Computer' and
>> that's it. Archive.org hasn't turned up anything. I'm just curious about
>> the tech used, no doubt it used DIPs
>> or flatpack micrologic and a tiny core plane?
>> Steve.
>> The only source i can see shows that prototypes were shipped to the US
>> Military. I imagine, from the pretty limited instruction set shown on
>> the article you linked, that  it was primarily used for ballistics
>> calculations for, say, missiles or mortars. Being what i assume was a
>> military contract, i don't imagine many of these prototypes were made,
>> and details would be classified.
>> With the technology of the time, I can't imagine it had much memory even
>> compared to other small machines like the PDP-8 and AGC. The limited
>> instruction set would help keep the physical size down, but also limit
>> it's usefulness in general applications.
>> I'd suspect it was TTL based, like other (very) late 60's machines, with
>> a very limited amount of core memory.
>> https://insight.ieeeusa.org/articles/your-engineering-heritage-what-is-a-minicomputer/


Thanks for the comments everyone. That article, it's a good take on the origins 
of the minicomputer term.
I could well imagine the editors of Datamation, upon hearing CD's term 
'miniature computer' shortening it to
'mini-computer' for a snappier title for their 449 article.

Also you're probably right about the intended use as a missile controller, the 
limited instruction set shown
would have been adequate for that purpose at the time. I suppose I saw 
'aerospace' and thought such a complex
(for its physical size) machine would have been the preserve of spaceflight 
applications.

Now this has just got me perusing old issues of Datamation  ...some amazing 
forgotten pieces of technology to
be found in there, like the Magnyx 4' x 3' flat panel magnetic non-volatile 
display from 1969. Wow!

Re: Firing up the pdt11

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Assuming people are still interested I'm working on other, lesser issues 
now that the little thing works.


First thought: The interconnections between the CPU board and the IO 
board/memory boards are weird. Basically it's a plate, insulator, board, 
very odd spacer that provides interconnection, bottom board, insulator, 
plate, and the bottom hinge that holds the cpu board above the floppy 
controller board.


These interconnections are very sensitive to torque. Make sure all 
screws are snugged down and all the bolts on the bottom (6) secure the 
screws to the bottom hinges. Otherwise torque will cause the 
interconnection to be intermittent and you'll go crazy trying to 
troubleshoot.


Another odd issue: When I have the top CPU board vertical everything 
works fine. When I lower it, at about a 20 degree angle all hell breaks 
loose. The floppies no longer work, and the system drops into ODT. At 
first I thought it was the ribbon cable but that looks fine. Then I 
thought it was the sockets having poor solder connections so I reflowed 
them on the CPU board and the disk board. Still no. At this point I'm 
thinking it is noise from the CPU board affecting the disk controller board.


There is a short of shield made of a layer of plastic paper, then a 
layer of foil, then another layer of plastic paper that goes between the 
boards. However it's not grounded, and I think that's part of the 
problem. Any idea why there would be so much noise, and how to reduce 
it? All of the ground wires are installed and there are a lot of them in 
this thing.


C

Re: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Fri, Oct 16, 2020, 3:41 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

> Is "QC OK" the brand name?   :-)
>

Clearly we need a QC OK stickers reproduced onto a T Shirt for the next
time we can get together...

Warner

They made a lot of stuff.
> Some of their premium stuff was designed by Pat Pending.
>
>
> > On 10/16/20 11:15 AM, Gregory Beat via cctalk wrote:
> >> This is a “Taiwanese generic 6-Pak” Add-In (8-bit ISA) expansion card.
> >> RAM 384 kB; Serial port, Parallel port, Game port, AND Real Time Clock !
>
> On Fri, 16 Oct 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> > Exactly.   The generic "QC OK" oval sticker is the tipoff that this is
> > generic Taiwanese.  I've got other generic "Computer Faire" cards with
> > the same sticker.   I think that Quadram may have used the same NS RTC
> > chip on their early Quadboards, but I'd have to go digging through my
> > hellbox to make certain.
> > Nothing wrong with the generic ERSO-inspired designs, either.
>

DEC ADV11-D Analog to Digital converter with DMA

[Mark Matlock via cctalk]

   I recently acquired an ADV11-D Qbus A/D board and having been working on a 
RSX11M+ driver for it. It is similar enough to the ADV11-C that the driver I 
wrote for the -C works ok, but the -D is DMA capable.

It seems to have two extra CSR registers in addition to the CSR, and read 
buffer. Does anyone have documentation for this board? It is mentioned in the 
Oct. 88 Microsystems Option Guide and both RSX and VMS supported it. It was 
also mentioned in the Dec 92 Real Time Products Technical manual.

  It has a 40 pin IDC connector that appears to have some amount of differences 
from the ADV11-C and no where have I seen any info on the DMA capability. 

   Does anyone have a ADV11-D user manual or XXDP source code for testing it?

Thanks,
Mark

Re: AOL CD and other old PC software...

[Peter Van Peborgh via cctalk]

I have a collection of British magazine CDs and DVDs from the mid-1995ish to
2013ish. They contain tools, programs, etc. I tried 5 and they mounted under
Win10 so they should work on old win releases: XP,7,8?

Would anyone be interested in acquiring these? Talk to me and we can work
out how.

peter


|| |  |   || |  |   ||
Peter Van Peborgh
62 St Mary's Rise
Writhlington  Radstock
SomersetBA3 3PD
UK
01761 439 234

"Our times are in God's wise and loving hands"

|| |  |   || |  |   ||

Re: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Is "QC OK" the brand name?   :-)
They made a lot of stuff.
Some of their premium stuff was designed by Pat Pending.



On 10/16/20 11:15 AM, Gregory Beat via cctalk wrote:

This is a “Taiwanese generic 6-Pak” Add-In (8-bit ISA) expansion card.
RAM 384 kB; Serial port, Parallel port, Game port, AND Real Time Clock !


On Fri, 16 Oct 2020, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Exactly.   The generic "QC OK" oval sticker is the tipoff that this is
generic Taiwanese.  I've got other generic "Computer Faire" cards with
the same sticker.   I think that Quadram may have used the same NS RTC
chip on their early Quadboards, but I'd have to go digging through my
hellbox to make certain.
Nothing wrong with the generic ERSO-inspired designs, either.

Re: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/16/20 11:15 AM, Gregory Beat via cctalk wrote:
> Sean, Fred, and Glen —

> This is a “Taiwanese generic 6-Pak” Add-In (8-bit ISA) expansion card.
> RAM 384 kB; Serial port, Parallel port, Game port, AND Real Time Clock !

Exactly.   The generic "QC OK" oval sticker is the tipoff that this is
generic Taiwanese.  I've got other generic "Computer Faire" cards with
the same sticker.   I think that Quadram may have used the same NS RTC
chip on their early Quadboards, but I'd have to go digging through my
hellbox to make certain.

Nothing wrong with the generic ERSO-inspired designs, either.

FWIW,
Chuck

Re: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card

[Gregory Beat via cctalk]

BTW -
IF you look at advertisements in the 1985-86 PC magazines, this was typical:
PC Network (Mail-Order/Telephone reseller).

PC NETWORK SIX-PACK“ CLONE with 0K  $89.00* 
Full Six-Pack“ Features —Game Port Standard. Direct Import from Taiwan at a 
Fabulous Price! 
==
The “unknown” is whether the AST software utilities, ASTCLOCK and SETCLOCK 
will work with National/TI clock chip in your Taiwanese multi-function card.
Some worked with it, others did NOT.
==
Jumpers behind the DB-25M serial port will be for 
Serial Port configuration (IRQ, memory address).
Parallel Port will have jumpers for LPT1 or LPT2 (Monographic card installed, 
add 1).
==
The 6-switch (DIP) will be “binary” for RAM installed & starting RAM address 
(256k?).

greg

> On Oct 16, 2020, at 1:15 PM, Greg Beat  wrote:
> 
> Sean, Fred, and Glen —
> 
> Sorry, late to this ISA card thread.
> I worked in Tech Support for an Apple/IBM/HP/Novell retail computer dealer,
> during summers in early 1980s, when in Graduate school. 
> So I saw the “wide selection” of add-in cards for IBM PC/XT and compatibles.
> ==
> This is a “Taiwanese generic 6-Pak” Add-In (8-bit ISA) expansion card.
> RAM 384 kB; Serial port, Parallel port, Game port, AND Real Time Clock !
> 
> Glen is CORRECT, the National Semiconductor MM58167 is the RTC IC.
> Texas Instruments bought out National in 2011, data-sheet still available.
> The “solder-in” B1 battery has been cutout (open space below/left of MM58167).
> 
> Replacement battery (likely ~ 3 to 3.6 Volt) can be acquired from Digi-Key. 
> Take measurements and closeup photo of “B1” Area, to CONFIRM Model and Size.
> —
> My Quick Guess ?
> Tadiran TL series 1/2 AA with Axial pins, 3.6V High Capacity Cylindrical 
> battery
> http://www.tadiranbat.com/assets/tll-5902.pdf
> Tadiran TL-5902/P  $6.65 
> https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/tadiran-batteries/TL-5902-P/512507
> 
> greg, w9gb
> chicago
> ===
> Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 17:34:58 -0700
> From: Glen Slick 
> To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
>
> Subject: Re: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card
> 
> On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 5:24 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
> wrote:
> 
 On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, Sean Ellis via cctalk wrote:
>>> I got this (currently exploded) mystery RAM, RTC, and I/O board out of
>>> a dead Sanyo luggable the other night, and once I replace the burned
>>> up tantalums I'd like to put it in my 5150 so I can get a full 640k of
>>> RAM.
>>> Question is, does anyone know what this board is? It's a completely
>>> anonymous board with not even an FCC ID to go off of. I'm assuming the
>>> RAM is at least strapped right; all the banks are full which should be
>>> 384k, and the Sanyo was a 256k machine = 640k.
>>> Here's a couple pictures; one's an actual picture of the card and the
>>> other is a simplified TULARC/TH99-esque vector of what's on the board.
>>> https://i.imgur.com/WhO4cco.jpg
>>> https://i.imgur.com/uBCkv5G.png
>> 
>> It resembles, although doesn't match, the AST Six-Pack.
>> But the AST Six-pack had a clock circuit.
> 
> Isn't the 24-pin DIP part number MM58167 ,shown in the images referenced 
> above,
> an RTC chip?

Re: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card

[Gregory Beat via cctalk]

Sean, Fred, and Glen —

Sorry, late to this ISA card thread.
I worked in Tech Support for an Apple/IBM/HP/Novell retail computer dealer,
during summers in early 1980s, when in Graduate school. 
So I saw the “wide selection” of add-in cards for IBM PC/XT and compatibles.
==
This is a “Taiwanese generic 6-Pak” Add-In (8-bit ISA) expansion card.
RAM 384 kB; Serial port, Parallel port, Game port, AND Real Time Clock !

Glen is CORRECT, the National Semiconductor MM58167 is the RTC IC.
Texas Instruments bought out National in 2011, data-sheet still available.
The “solder-in” B1 battery has been cutout (open space below/left of MM58167).

Replacement battery (likely ~ 3 to 3.6 Volt) can be acquired from Digi-Key. 
Take measurements and closeup photo of “B1” Area, to CONFIRM Model and Size.
—
My Quick Guess ?
Tadiran TL series 1/2 AA with Axial pins, 3.6V High Capacity Cylindrical battery
http://www.tadiranbat.com/assets/tll-5902.pdf
Tadiran TL-5902/P  $6.65 
https://www.digikey.com/en/products/detail/tadiran-batteries/TL-5902-P/512507

greg, w9gb
chicago
===
Date: Thu, 15 Oct 2020 17:34:58 -0700
From: Glen Slick 
To: "General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts"
   
Subject: Re: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020, 5:24 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk 
wrote:

>> On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, Sean Ellis via cctalk wrote:
>> I got this (currently exploded) mystery RAM, RTC, and I/O board out of
>> a dead Sanyo luggable the other night, and once I replace the burned
>> up tantalums I'd like to put it in my 5150 so I can get a full 640k of
>> RAM.
>> Question is, does anyone know what this board is? It's a completely
>> anonymous board with not even an FCC ID to go off of. I'm assuming the
>> RAM is at least strapped right; all the banks are full which should be
>> 384k, and the Sanyo was a 256k machine = 640k.
>> Here's a couple pictures; one's an actual picture of the card and the
>> other is a simplified TULARC/TH99-esque vector of what's on the board.
>> https://i.imgur.com/WhO4cco.jpg
>> https://i.imgur.com/uBCkv5G.png
> 
> It resembles, although doesn't match, the AST Six-Pack.
> But the AST Six-pack had a clock circuit.

Isn't the 24-pin DIP part number MM58167 ,shown in the images referenced above,
an RTC chip?

Re: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967?

[dwight via cctalk]

That is way smaller than the AGS.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of Gavin Scott via 
cctalk 
Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:04 AM
To: rice43 ; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic 
Posts 
Subject: Re: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967?

Or was it really just a calculator? The mode list in the ad kinda
suggests it wasn't programmable so the human operator may have been
required to be the program and the rest of the "system".

On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 4:23 AM rice43 via cctalk  wrote:
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Steve Malikoff via cctalk" 
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Sent: Friday, 16 Oct, 2020 At 08:02
> Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967?
> I was idly browsing early editions of Computer World journal on Google
> newspapers and found an announcement
> and picture of the '449', an experimental aerospace computer built by
> Control Data in 1967 and touted as
> "the world's smallest computer" at 4" x 4" x 9", of which the logic part
> is a 4" cube and the rest is the battery.
> It's on page 3 of Computer World Sep 20 1967:
> https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=v_xunPV0uK0C=19670920=frontpage=en
> 
> It seems to me it may have been an analogous machine to the Apollo AGS
> perhaps and would like to know a bit more
> about it, but I've only been able to find a brief mention of the '449-2
> Special Miniature Computer' and
> that's it. Archive.org hasn't turned up anything. I'm just curious about
> the tech used, no doubt it used DIPs
> or flatpack micrologic and a tiny core plane?
> Steve.
> The only source i can see shows that prototypes were shipped to the US
> Military. I imagine, from the pretty limited instruction set shown on
> the article you linked, that  it was primarily used for ballistics
> calculations for, say, missiles or mortars. Being what i assume was a
> military contract, i don't imagine many of these prototypes were made,
> and details would be classified.
> With the technology of the time, I can't imagine it had much memory even
> compared to other small machines like the PDP-8 and AGC. The limited
> instruction set would help keep the physical size down, but also limit
> it's usefulness in general applications.
> I'd suspect it was TTL based, like other (very) late 60's machines, with
> a very limited amount of core memory.
> https://insight.ieeeusa.org/articles/your-engineering-heritage-what-is-a-minicomputer/
>

looking for advice on cleaning old equipment

[Bjoren Davis via cctalk]

Hello Classicquers,

I have some vintage DEC equipment (terminals and small systems) that I 
need to clean up.


I'm looking for advice on how to clean the plastic bits.

Specifically, I want to know if anyone has a good solution to preserve 
labels that are attached to such plastic bits while they're being 
cleaned, especially labels that can't be removed (e.g., paper labels).


In the past I've cut out pieces of Saran wrap just large enough to cover 
the label and then covered that with painter's masking tape.  
Unfortunately it wasn't perfect and some water/soap did get under the 
tape and reached the label (this is especially problematic if the 
plastic surface has some texture).


I'm hoping for something like a wax or some other kind of material that 
is easily removed with heat but at room temperature is impervious to 
water and soap.


Does anyone have any ideas, good or otherwise?

Thanks!

--Bjoren Davis

Re: PDP 8/L & 8/I G228 warning

[Jay Jaeger via cctalk]

On 10/16/2020 1:37 PM, David Gesswein via cctalk wrote:
>Noticed in another thread an 8L is upcoming on the persons restoration
> list. Making separate post so more visible. The G228's have a 20 uF 50V
> electrolytic capacitor on them. I have had two short. When they short its
> a race between the trace on the board burning up or the backplane 30 AWG
> wirewrap wire burning up.  One was on an 8/I I was restoring where the
> backplane wire providing the power burnt up at power on. Wasn't shorted
> before power on. The other was I saw one G228 had a burnt track while I was
> washing the cards in an 8/L. I had not applied power at that point so that
> was old damage. Usage history is unknown.
> 
> As a minimum I would recommend applying current limited 30V to the capacitor
> on each card out of the machine before initial power on. Low enough limit may
> allow the capacitor to reform without shorting. The same part # capacitor is
> still available for protective replacement. The capacitors don't read shorted
> before power is applied. Unknown if they will short if the machine is powered
> on periodically. 
> 
> I've head lots of reports of all the failures in 8/L's. I replaced the
> one G228 and some bulbs but otherwise the machine was fine. It did need a lot
> of cleaning and I did do my normal power supply reform and checkout.
> 

Thanks for that warning - my 8/L and likely the PDP-12 as well
appreciate it.  ;)

Re: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Ethan Dicks

> ODT works from my 11/34 with bad RAM,

?? The -11/34 doesn't have 'real' ODT (like the one in the LSI-11's,
KDF11's, KDJ11's), which is in microcode).

The M9301 and M9312 bootstrap ROM boars contain a console emulator, but it's
in macrocode.

Noel

PDP 8/L & 8/I G228 warning

[David Gesswein via cctalk]

   Noticed in another thread an 8L is upcoming on the persons restoration
list. Making separate post so more visible. The G228's have a 20 uF 50V
electrolytic capacitor on them. I have had two short. When they short its
a race between the trace on the board burning up or the backplane 30 AWG
wirewrap wire burning up.  One was on an 8/I I was restoring where the
backplane wire providing the power burnt up at power on. Wasn't shorted
before power on. The other was I saw one G228 had a burnt track while I was
washing the cards in an 8/L. I had not applied power at that point so that
was old damage. Usage history is unknown.

As a minimum I would recommend applying current limited 30V to the capacitor
on each card out of the machine before initial power on. Low enough limit may
allow the capacitor to reform without shorting. The same part # capacitor is
still available for protective replacement. The capacitors don't read shorted
before power is applied. Unknown if they will short if the machine is powered
on periodically. 

I've head lots of reports of all the failures in 8/L's. I replaced the
one G228 and some bulbs but otherwise the machine was fine. It did need a lot
of cleaning and I did do my normal power supply reform and checkout.

Re: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Chris Zach

> Next up is the 11/24, this is one of the 5.25 inch rack mounts with a
> CPU, KT24, and no memory.
> First question: Will ODT respond at all with no memory on the Unibus?

My _guess_ is probably, since on other KDF11 CPU's, ODT works with no
memory, but I haven't confirmed that.

My PDP-11/24 chassis (a 5-1/4" BA11-L, like yours) I took apart to get the
backplane out, so I could work out how the busses work (see below), and I'd
need to put it back together before I could try my -12/24.to confirm it. If
you could take some pictures of the insides of your BA11-L, that would be
both a help to the re-assemblhy, and ancentive to do so.

> Can a 128kw memory board from an 11/34 work in an 11/24?

Yes and no. See:

  https://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/24

for more. Note "The top 256 Kbytes of the CPU's address space were devoted to
the UNIBUS". So an MS11-L or similar UNIBUS memory can probably be
read/written by the CPU, but it won't appear at 0 in the CPU's address space.

> Or do I need one of the 11/44 boards to make it go?

Whether a KDF11-U will work with no memory at physical 0 is unknown: it would
need at least a special bootstrap (since most assume working memory at 0) and
a special OS load (ditto).

Also, I seem to recall that on the -11/45, with mapping enabled, interrupt
vectors are in Kernel D space, so once running, that machine could operate
with no working memory at physical 0, but I don't know if KDF11 CPU's use
mapped Kernel space for vectors. If you're interested, I can run an
test on a KDF11-A and see.

Noel

Re: AOL CD and other old PC software...

[Grant Taylor via cctalk]

On 10/16/20 7:50 AM, geneb wrote:
Grant, you might search the IA for them.  I know a LOT of the CDs were 
put online there over the past 18 months or so.


Yep.  I've found many.

It's just one of those things like pilfering through the pile of CDs 
(both formats; new digital and old analog) at garage sales / flee 
markets.  You never know what you'll find.




--
Grant. . . .
unix || die

Re: Next project: 11/24. Does it need memory?

[Ethan Dicks via cctalk]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 10:52 PM Chris Zach via cctalk
 wrote:
> Next up is the 11/24,
> this is one of the 5.25 inch rack mounts with a CPU, KT24, and no memory.
>
> First question: Will ODT respond at all with no memory on the Unibus?

I don't recall.  I think so but it's possible it won't.  ODT works
from my 11/34 with bad RAM, but I've never tried any machine with no
RAM.  It doesn't help that different models have different
implementations of ODT.

> Second question: Can a 128kw memory board from an 11/34 work in an
> 11/24? Or do I need one of the 11/44 boards to make it go?

AFAIK, you should be able to use that 128kw memory board just fine,
but I don't recall if they play nice with the KT24 in going over
18-bits.  I have a couple of 1MB boards in my 11/24 (they were not
cheap in the 80s) which I got after I got a KT24 (all so I could run
2BSD).

I'd consult the KT24 technical manual to see how it works, and the
11/24 manual to see what memory cards DEC supported.  I don't remember
having any particular difficulties with configuring my 11/24 but I
wasn't doing any mixing and matching.

-ethan

Re: AOL CD and other old PC software...

[geneb via cctalk]

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:

I'm interested in some of the old OS & Server Apps that were in many of thee 
MSDN CD sets.




Grant, you might search the IA for them.  I know a LOT of the CDs were put 
online there over the past 18 months or so.


g.

--
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http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
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Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967?

[Gavin Scott via cctalk]

Or was it really just a calculator? The mode list in the ad kinda
suggests it wasn't programmable so the human operator may have been
required to be the program and the rest of the "system".

On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 4:23 AM rice43 via cctalk  wrote:
>
>
> -- Original Message --
> From: "Steve Malikoff via cctalk" 
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Sent: Friday, 16 Oct, 2020 At 08:02
> Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967?
> I was idly browsing early editions of Computer World journal on Google
> newspapers and found an announcement
> and picture of the '449', an experimental aerospace computer built by
> Control Data in 1967 and touted as
> "the world's smallest computer" at 4" x 4" x 9", of which the logic part
> is a 4" cube and the rest is the battery.
> It's on page 3 of Computer World Sep 20 1967:
> https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=v_xunPV0uK0C=19670920=frontpage=en
> 
> It seems to me it may have been an analogous machine to the Apollo AGS
> perhaps and would like to know a bit more
> about it, but I've only been able to find a brief mention of the '449-2
> Special Miniature Computer' and
> that's it. Archive.org hasn't turned up anything. I'm just curious about
> the tech used, no doubt it used DIPs
> or flatpack micrologic and a tiny core plane?
> Steve.
> The only source i can see shows that prototypes were shipped to the US
> Military. I imagine, from the pretty limited instruction set shown on
> the article you linked, that  it was primarily used for ballistics
> calculations for, say, missiles or mortars. Being what i assume was a
> military contract, i don't imagine many of these prototypes were made,
> and details would be classified.
> With the technology of the time, I can't imagine it had much memory even
> compared to other small machines like the PDP-8 and AGC. The limited
> instruction set would help keep the physical size down, but also limit
> it's usefulness in general applications.
> I'd suspect it was TTL based, like other (very) late 60's machines, with
> a very limited amount of core memory.
> https://insight.ieeeusa.org/articles/your-engineering-heritage-what-is-a-minicomputer/
>

Re: Identifying a Mystery ISA Card

[Will Cooke via cctalk]

> On 10/15/2020 6:55 PM Richard Cini via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> 
> Well, it looks like one of those memory/multi-IO/clock boards like the AST 
> RAMPACK+. I would take a look at this site (which you might already know):
> 
> https://stason.org/TULARC/pc/memory-cards/index.html
> 
> When I was looking for jumpers, etc., for both the AboveBoard AT and BOCARAM 
> I have, I started here. Maybe if you browse the links, something will pop-up. 
> I know that these boards often have special drivers for expanded memory; 
> extended memory should just "show up". I would hope that the other 
> ports/devices (clock, parallel, serial and game) are at standard PC addresses.
> 
> 
> Rich
> 
> On 10/15/20, 6:59 PM, "cctalk on behalf of Sean Ellis via cctalk" 
>  wrote:
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> I got this (currently exploded) mystery RAM, RTC, and I/O board out of
> a dead Sanyo luggable the other night, and once I replace the burned
> up tantalums I'd like to put it in my 5150 so I can get a full 640k of
> RAM.
> 

In the mid 80s I was the service department of a pretty busy mom and pop 
computer store. I installed a LOT of boards like that as well as many others. 
They were mostly generic and would come with all sorts of brand names. What I 
found was that if two boards from different suppliers and different brand names 
looked identical, they most likely were. I would often see the exact same board 
sold in various ways, from generic no-name to well known brand names with maybe 
3 to 1 price variation, but the boards were exactly the same. So, having said 
that, if you find one that looks identical, it probably is. But as someone 
(Fred?) mentioned, they are pretty generic as far as memory and printer/com 
ports go. Typically the only difference was the clock since that was not 
"standard" on the PC and PC/XT. There were quite a few device drivers for the 
clocks. Sometimes, but not always, a driver for one board that used the same 
chip would work on another if they were located at the same I/O address.
  I would look for any board that looks identical, even "brand names", in 
search of clock info and drivers.

HTH,
Will

Re: FIRE SALE!

[Pontus Pihlgren via cctalk]

On Thu, Oct 15, 2020 at 01:41:11PM -0700, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote:
> with a spare set of 11/70 boards.  What sold me though was that the 11/70
> has a PEP70 + Hypercache board set installed (which would be really cool,
> assuming anything in there can be made to work again).

Lucky bastard :) I hope those boards i salvagable. The PDP-11/70 that we 
run at update (http://magica.update.uu.se/) has seen it's fair share of 
trouble. Most often the PSU fails but after that it is memory and cache 
that has been causing the most issues.


Regards,
Pontus.

Re: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967?

[rice43 via cctalk]

-- Original Message --
From: "Steve Malikoff via cctalk" 
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
Sent: Friday, 16 Oct, 2020 At 08:02
Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967?
I was idly browsing early editions of Computer World journal on Google 
newspapers and found an announcement
and picture of the '449', an experimental aerospace computer built by 
Control Data in 1967 and touted as
"the world's smallest computer" at 4" x 4" x 9", of which the logic part 
is a 4" cube and the rest is the battery.

It's on page 3 of Computer World Sep 20 1967:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=v_xunPV0uK0C=19670920=frontpage=en 

It seems to me it may have been an analogous machine to the Apollo AGS 
perhaps and would like to know a bit more
about it, but I've only been able to find a brief mention of the '449-2 
Special Miniature Computer' and
that's it. Archive.org hasn't turned up anything. I'm just curious about 
the tech used, no doubt it used DIPs

or flatpack micrologic and a tiny core plane?
Steve.
The only source i can see shows that prototypes were shipped to the US 
Military. I imagine, from the pretty limited instruction set shown on 
the article you linked, that  it was primarily used for ballistics 
calculations for, say, missiles or mortars. Being what i assume was a 
military contract, i don't imagine many of these prototypes were made, 
and details would be classified.
With the technology of the time, I can't imagine it had much memory even 
compared to other small machines like the PDP-8 and AGC. The limited 
instruction set would help keep the physical size down, but also limit 
it's usefulness in general applications.
I'd suspect it was TTL based, like other (very) late 60's machines, with 
a very limited amount of core memory.

https://insight.ieeeusa.org/articles/your-engineering-heritage-what-is-a-minicomputer/

Re: Informix for SCO XENIX

[John Many Jars via cctalk]

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020 at 14:26, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> Depends on your definition of experience.  I last used Informix
> on XENIX on the TRS-80 Model 16 in the early 80's.  :-)
> It was quite different from the Univac 1100 running DMS-11 that
> was the main DB there.
>
>
That's more experience than I've got coming in the door... (:

I can kind of do the job in the meantime, after a fashion.  I got out of
programming 20 years ago (as a job) because I'm not so great at it and it's
harder than saying "Did you try turning it off and then on again".
-- 
Yoyodyne Propulsion Systems:  "The Future Begins Tomorrow"
Visit us at: http://www.yoyodyne-propulsion.net


"When a true genius appears in the world, you may know him by this sign,
that the dunces are all in confederacy against him." -- Jonathan Swift

Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967?

[Steve Malikoff via cctalk]

I was idly browsing early editions of Computer World journal on Google 
newspapers and found an announcement
and picture of the '449', an experimental aerospace computer built by Control 
Data in 1967 and touted as
"the world's smallest computer" at 4" x 4" x 9", of which the logic part is a 
4" cube and the rest is the battery.
It's on page 3 of Computer World Sep 20 1967:
https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=v_xunPV0uK0C=19670920=frontpage=en

It seems to me it may have been an analogous machine to the Apollo AGS perhaps 
and would like to know a bit more
about it, but I've only been able to find a brief mention of the '449-2 Special 
Miniature Computer' and
that's it. Archive.org hasn't turned up anything. I'm just curious about the 
tech used, no doubt it used DIPs
or flatpack micrologic and a tiny core plane?

Steve.

Re: Informix for SCO XENIX

[Christian Corti via cctalk]

On Thu, 15 Oct 2020, it was written

Can I get a copy of that? I have a PC-X ;)


It can be found on our FTP server:
ftp://computermuseum.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/siemens/pc-x

Christian