Re: PDP-11/70 debugging advice
> On Jan 31, 2021, at 8:19 PM, Josh Dersch wrote: > Well, what's interesting here is that on my system, switch S4 (MAINT STPR) > steps the processor with switches S1 and S2 set to *any* configuration. Hmm, would expect to see S2:1 S1:0 step by microinstruction, and S2:1 S1:1 step by clock phase. The other two settings should free run the microcode. So yeah, sounds like something fishy there... The TIG card has more than a few analog components, and its not too unusual for these to get hung up on the adjacent card and have a leg pulled or sheared from the board. > Ah, and page II-6-20 (p. 178) indicates that when DCLO is asserted, it > asserts: "UBCE ROM INIT H - forces the ROM to ZAP.00 (200), and stops and > clears the Timing Generator and the Cache timing." Yup, that's one of the signals coming in to RAC E106. Probing there should indicate which of possible sources for ZAP is actually occurring (UBCE ROM INIT H on pins 2 and 3 there). DCLO is a classic... Make sure to 'scope it, because it sometimes has troublesome spikes that don't show on a multimeter. If you have H742s, there are some wet tantalums on the control board that sometimes leak and cause trouble with this. I'm sure you are raring to go -- hope those fans show up for you tomorrow, and will be interested to hear what you find! --FritzM.
Re: DEC backplane power connectors
> I have posted it here: Ooops, moved it; now here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/dec_connectors.jpg Noel
Re: PDP-11/70 debugging advice
On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 7:55 PM Josh Dersch wrote: > On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 7:04 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> > Yeah. I want to get the fans installed and then go triple-check all >> the power signals and get the voltages dialed in nicely. But then things >> come out on extenders :). >> >> Yup -- I'm surprised how picky my '45 is about +5 undervolt; it really >> seems happiest with trimmed up to about 5.1 at the backplane. >> >> Looks like E106 on the RAC (M8123) might be a good place to start >> (drawing RACA, lower left.) >> > > I was just looking in chapter 4 of the processor manual to learn more > about how the processor clocks are generated on the M8139 (TIG) board; on > page II-4-2 (p. 136 in the PDF on Bitsavers) section 4.1.3 it says: > > "The third source of timing [the other two being the crystal clock and a > diagnostic R/C network] is the manually-operated, single-step MAINT STPR > switch S4, located on the maintenance card. This switch is only enabled > when maintenance card switches S2 and S3 are both set to 1." > > Section 4.2.3 confirms this: > > "The maintenance card S2 and S1 switches are both set to 1 to allow single > timing pulses to be generated by MAINT STPR switch S4 Removing the S2 > or S1 input conditions the MS EN flip-flop to be cleared." > > Well, what's interesting here is that on my system, switch S4 (MAINT STPR) > steps the processor with switches S1 and S2 set to *any* configuration. > Tried it with the other KM11 I have, same behavior. This being the case, I > wonder if the logic that selects the clock source is faulty, and is always > selecting the MAINT STPR input. This would definitely explain the behavior > I'm seeing. I hope the fans arrive tomorrow so I can start debugging this > :). > Ah, and page II-6-20 (p. 178) indicates that when DCLO is asserted, it asserts: "UBCE ROM INIT H - forces the ROM to ZAP.00 (200), and stops and clears the Timing Generator and the Cache timing." I suppose that this is the more likely explanation for the behavior here and that the maintenance card behavior is a side-effect of this. Time to actually probe things, rather than speculating... - Josh > > - Josh > > >> >> cheers, >> --FritzM. >> >> >> >>
Re: PDP-11/70 debugging advice
On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 7:04 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Yeah. I want to get the fans installed and then go triple-check all the > power signals and get the voltages dialed in nicely. But then things come > out on extenders :). > > Yup -- I'm surprised how picky my '45 is about +5 undervolt; it really > seems happiest with trimmed up to about 5.1 at the backplane. > > Looks like E106 on the RAC (M8123) might be a good place to start (drawing > RACA, lower left.) > I was just looking in chapter 4 of the processor manual to learn more about how the processor clocks are generated on the M8139 (TIG) board; on page II-4-2 (p. 136 in the PDF on Bitsavers) section 4.1.3 it says: "The third source of timing [the other two being the crystal clock and a diagnostic R/C network] is the manually-operated, single-step MAINT STPR switch S4, located on the maintenance card. This switch is only enabled when maintenance card switches S2 and S3 are both set to 1." Section 4.2.3 confirms this: "The maintenance card S2 and S1 switches are both set to 1 to allow single timing pulses to be generated by MAINT STPR switch S4 Removing the S2 or S1 input conditions the MS EN flip-flop to be cleared." Well, what's interesting here is that on my system, switch S4 (MAINT STPR) steps the processor with switches S1 and S2 set to *any* configuration. Tried it with the other KM11 I have, same behavior. This being the case, I wonder if the logic that selects the clock source is faulty, and is always selecting the MAINT STPR input. This would definitely explain the behavior I'm seeing. I hope the fans arrive tomorrow so I can start debugging this :). - Josh > > cheers, > --FritzM. > > > >
Re: DEC backplane power connectors
> From: Tom Uban > The part numbers are: . A106239-ND, TE Connectivity AMP Connectors 1-171196-0, CONN PLUG 6POS MATE-N-LOK NATRL > A1427-ND, TE Connectivity AMP Connectors 1-480323-0, CONN PLUG 15 POS MATE-N-LOK > See attached picture That didn't come through for people on the list; I have posted it here: http://ana-3.lcs.mit.edu/~jnc/tech/pdp11/jpg/tmp/dec_connectors.jpg so everyone can see his connectors. > Looking at the TE.com catalog, the picture for 1-480273-0 does not match > my DD11-DF connector Actually, the 1-480273-0 is _exactly_ the unit DEC used; I looked at the power distribution panel from a BA11-K, and that's what it uses. (I'm too burned out to look at the engineering drawings and get the part number to confirm; I'll do that 'soon'.) I took a picture of the male shells, and added it to the CHWiki page (I'll add the females tomorrow). The detail of the 6-pin one didn't show up too well, so I took another closeup of just it, here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/File:DECPwrConnMaleSml.jpg Your 15-pin is the same as mine (the part number matches). Your 6-pin has 'wings' on the side (these prevent it pulling through when placed in a hole in sheet metal); the 6-pin DEC used has little right-angle arms, just like the ones on the 15-pin, to brace it in place. They are compatible, though, I think; a female shell that will take one probably will take the other. Noel
Re: PDP-11/70 debugging advice
> Yeah. I want to get the fans installed and then go triple-check all the > power signals and get the voltages dialed in nicely. But then things come > out on extenders :). Yup -- I'm surprised how picky my '45 is about +5 undervolt; it really seems happiest with trimmed up to about 5.1 at the backplane. Looks like E106 on the RAC (M8123) might be a good place to start (drawing RACA, lower left.) cheers, --FritzM.
Re: PDP-11/70 debugging advice
On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 5:05 PM Fritz Mueller via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Hi Josh, > > ZAP is effectively reset for the micro-architecture, forcing the ucode > address to known/initial value. It has multiple sources throughout the > processor, including tendrils into some of trap handling hardware. (Caveat: > my experience is based off extensive work with the '11/45, but the > micro-architecture as I understand it for the '11/70 is quite similar.) > Yeah, ZAP seems to be the entry point at power-up as well as for trap handling. > For the '45, there was a very handy "KB11-A,D Maintenance Manual", which > explained the logic of such internal signals and the board by board > internal operation of the CPU to a very useful level of detail; I'm sure > similar is available for the KB11-B,C? It's worth a read through if you > haven't already, though its quite a bit to take in. > Yes, there's a similar doc. The engineering drawings include the flow diagrams for the microcode, and the Processor Manual ( http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp11/1170/EK-KB11C-TM-001_1170procMan.pdf) goes into details on the rest. I started digesting all of this last night, it's going to take awhile :). > > I would imagine the next step would be to throw the RAC board out on > extenders, verify that ZAP is asserted, and if so pursue the driving source. > Yeah. I want to get the fans installed and then go triple-check all the power signals and get the voltages dialed in nicely. But then things come out on extenders :). > > Do you know if you have a KB11-B or C? > It's a KB11-C. > Happy hunting! > Thanks, it'll be interesting for sure. - Josh >--FritzM. > > >
Re: Serial numbers intelligence
On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 03:59:27PM -0800, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: [...] > I know nothing of any actual details about tanks. > But, "Oddball" (Donald Sutherland) in "Kelly's Heroes" said that the > only way that they could take on a Tiger, "Yeah. Look, a Tiger has > only one weak point. That's its ass. You got to hit it point blank > and you've got to hit it from behind." Heh. I half-liked the movie. Action moments seemed ok to me, but the overall theme of "let's make some money of this", not so much. I do not have extensive knowledge about equipment, but in my younger years I was an avid strategy gamer. Turn-based strategy rather than real-time one. I wanted to make educated choices, so I started to read from various places, watching documentaries etc. So, not an expert, just a somehow educated gamer. So, yes, if the armageddon happens, I might know what to pick from one of those military storages... But I would rather pick an amateur telescope. Comparing tank performance is a broad subject, of course. And off topic. I have learned few shocking things about those beasts. I do not remember all the details I used to, but I was not amazed from what I learned about US and British tanks... Stuff like a round from 88mm German gun could penetrate both side walls of the best opposing tank. With poor fellows sitting inside. As I do not play anymore (lack of time), I still read an article or two on the military history. I came to thinking that war is totally unglorious business, each side makes errors and the winner is, whoever makes smaller number of catastrophic ones. Or can survive on his legs while the opponent cannot, even if he made less errors. Etc. A bit closer to interests of this list, there was a vast field of information services supporting the high command. Punch cards, trucks with sorters and card punches landing on shores of Normandy... Not as a part of assault forces, of course. A subject (almost) completely lost from war movies. I have barely scratched it. -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
Re: Microsoft fortran and c manuals
Hi, No, there is just the HTML pages from the MS CD: https://www.pcjs.org/documents/books/mspl13/c/ and this: http://www.x-hacker.org/ng/msc60/index.html /Tomas On Mon, 01 Feb 2021 02:32:54 +0100, Randy Dawson via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Thomas, > > Did you ever the pdf copies of these? > > I also would like to get a set. > > Thanks, > > Randy >
Microsoft fortran and c manuals
Hi Thomas, Did you ever the pdf copies of these? I also would like to get a set. Thanks, Randy
Re: PDP-11/70 debugging advice
Hi Josh, ZAP is effectively reset for the micro-architecture, forcing the ucode address to known/initial value. It has multiple sources throughout the processor, including tendrils into some of trap handling hardware. (Caveat: my experience is based off extensive work with the '11/45, but the micro-architecture as I understand it for the '11/70 is quite similar.) For the '45, there was a very handy "KB11-A,D Maintenance Manual", which explained the logic of such internal signals and the board by board internal operation of the CPU to a very useful level of detail; I'm sure similar is available for the KB11-B,C? It's worth a read through if you haven't already, though its quite a bit to take in. I would imagine the next step would be to throw the RAC board out on extenders, verify that ZAP is asserted, and if so pursue the driving source. Do you know if you have a KB11-B or C? Happy hunting! --FritzM.
Re: Serial numbers intelligence
On Mon, 1 Feb 2021, Tomasz Rola via cctalk wrote: Nice article, but certain paragraph made me uneasy: "By 1941-42, the allies knew that US and even British tanks had been technically superior to German Panzer tanks in combat, but they were worried about the capabilities of the new marks IV and V. " Oh really. I remember that US combat manual (or whatever they were called) from the era recommended a Tiger should be engaged by at least four Shermans. Assuming Tiger was waiting for them coming by the road, the first one was to be destroyed by the first shot, then the next one or two while they were getting closer to German tank, and finally the fourth had a chance to outmanouver the Tiger (they really sucked in dancing, from what I have read) and pack it a shot in the back from close distance. Sorry for nitpicking. Perhaps my memory comes from alternative reality, but it rhymes with data claiming that number of M4 Shermans produced during 1942-1945 period was almost 5. As of the problem itself, here are some links. It is called "German tanks problem". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20318184 https://www.eadan.net/blog/german-tank-problem/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem Thank you for the references. I know nothing of any actual details about tanks. But, "Oddball" (Donald Sutherland) in "Kelly's Heroes" said that the only way that they could take on a Tiger, "Yeah. Look, a Tiger has only one weak point. That's its ass. You got to hit it point blank and you've got to hit it from behind."
Re: Serial numbers intelligence
On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 05:47:49PM -0500, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: > > I'm curious to what degree people have used serial number > > intelligence gathering and countermeasures in the industry. Like > > were/are there market research firms that would go to Fry's and > > record numbers off of boxes to try to extrapolate sales for things > > like printer consumables, and whether companies like HP ever took > > measures to try to obfuscate the potential information content of > > their product serial numbers. > > http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jul/20/secondworldwar.tvandradio > > De Nice article, but certain paragraph made me uneasy: "By 1941-42, the allies knew that US and even British tanks had been technically superior to German Panzer tanks in combat, but they were worried about the capabilities of the new marks IV and V. " Oh really. I remember that US combat manual (or whatever they were called) from the era recommended a Tiger should be engaged by at least four Shermans. Assuming Tiger was waiting for them coming by the road, the first one was to be destroyed by the first shot, then the next one or two while they were getting closer to German tank, and finally the fourth had a chance to outmanouver the Tiger (they really sucked in dancing, from what I have read) and pack it a shot in the back from close distance. Sorry for nitpicking. Perhaps my memory comes from alternative reality, but it rhymes with data claiming that number of M4 Shermans produced during 1942-1945 period was almost 5. As of the problem itself, here are some links. It is called "German tanks problem". https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20318184 https://www.eadan.net/blog/german-tank-problem/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_tank_problem -- Regards, Tomasz Rola -- ** A C programmer asked whether computer had Buddha's nature. ** ** As the answer, master did "rm -rif" on the programmer's home** ** directory. And then the C programmer became enlightened... ** ** ** ** Tomasz Rola mailto:tomasz_r...@bigfoot.com **
Re: Serial numbers intelligence
> I'm curious to what degree people have used serial number > intelligence gathering and countermeasures in the industry. Like > were/are there market research firms that would go to Fry's and > record numbers off of boxes to try to extrapolate sales for things > like printer consumables, and whether companies like HP ever took > measures to try to obfuscate the potential information content of > their product serial numbers. On Sun, 31 Jan 2021, Dennis Boone via cctalk wrote: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jul/20/secondworldwar.tvandradio A minor glitch, common to MOST studies is the assumption that the sample is representative of the whole. But, consider that the tanks were presumably put into service immediately, as soon as they could leave the factory. Therefore, #20 was in use for a while longer before #92. Unstated was whether they had any idea how long that had been. It is likely that the tanks that were captured were probably captured because they broke down, or were no longer working as well as the fresh ones. That would tend to bias the sample as tending to be the oldest. Therefore, it would be likely (not a certainty) that the newest ones, being in better condition, and POSSIBLY including some improvements were more likely to have been able to get away. That would call for detailed comparison of #20 with #92, looking for any differences, AND looking to see how well they had been maintained. (Loss of efficiency over time can be a function of maintenance) Admittedly,within their tiny sample, the numbers are fairly well distributed, although there is a definite increasing gap between numbers between. The formula assumes that production is at a constant rate, rather than speeding up over time (early production is usually not as fast as later), or slowing down with parts shortages. Their sample was too small to be completely trusted as being representative. Realistically, there were numerous factors that could make such a tiny sample unrepresentative. And therefore, the estimate of 109 should have been plus or minus a LARGE number. It is not clear nor stated how many had been captured by the time that they made the GUESS of 246 for an actual number of 245. Perhaps they had captured hundreds by then, and could more reliably estimate. If they had still captured only a few, then their guess was extraordinarily lucky. The reliability of the calculation increases dramatically as the sample size grows.
Re: PDP-11/70 debugging advice
On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 2:39 PM Guy Sotomayor via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Did you check to make sure that power is wired correctly to the > PEP-70/Hypercache? They are typically installed in "empty" slots and > don't have power (or anything else) routed to them. They require some > additional jumpers to be installed on the backplane so that they get power. > Yes, it's wired up (Don't know who did the installation, but I'm assuming it was operational at some point). There are four large black jumper wires leading from slot 18 to slot 19, matching the instructions in the PEP70 installation manual. Thanks, Josh
Re: Serial numbers intelligence
> I'm curious to what degree people have used serial number > intelligence gathering and countermeasures in the industry. Like > were/are there market research firms that would go to Fry's and > record numbers off of boxes to try to extrapolate sales for things > like printer consumables, and whether companies like HP ever took > measures to try to obfuscate the potential information content of > their product serial numbers. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/jul/20/secondworldwar.tvandradio De
Re: PDP-11/70 debugging advice
Did you check to make sure that power is wired correctly to the PEP-70/Hypercache? They are typically installed in "empty" slots and don't have power (or anything else) routed to them. They require some additional jumpers to be installed on the backplane so that they get power. On 1/31/21 2:31 PM, Josh Dersch via cctalk wrote: Hi all -- Making some progress with the "fire sale" PDP-11/70. Over the past month I've rebuilt the power supplies and burned them in on the bench, and I've gotten things cleaned up and reassembled. I'm still waiting on some new chassis fans but my curiosity overwhelmed my caution and I decided to power it up for a short time (like 30 seconds) just to see what happens. Good news: no smoke or fire. Voltages look good (need a tiny bit of adjustment yet) and AC LO and DC LO looked good everywhere I tested them. Bad news: processor is almost entirely unresponsive; comes up with the RUN and MASTER lights on, toggling Halt, and hitting Start causes the RUN light to go out, but that's the only response I get from the console. I got out the KM11 boardset and with that installed I can step through microinstructions and it's definitely executing them, and seems to be following the flow diagrams in the engineering drawings. Left to its own devices, however, the processor doesn't seem to be executing microinstructions at all, it's stuck at uAddress 200. In the troubleshooting section of the 11/70 service docs (diagram on p. 5-16) it states: IF LOAD ADRS DOES NOT WORK AND: - RUN, MASTER & ALL DATA INDICATORS ARE ON - uADRS = 200 (ZAP) THEN MEMORY HAS LOST POWER Which seems to adequately describe the symptoms I'm seeing, but as far as I can tell the AC and DC LO signals are all fine. (This system has a Setasi PEP70/Hypercache installed, so there's no separate memory chassis to worry about.) I'm going to go back and re-check everything, but I was curious if anyone knows whether loss of AC or DC would prevent the processor from executing microcode -- from everything I understand it should cause a trap, and I don't see anything in the docs about inhibiting microcode execution. But perhaps if this happens at power-up things behave differently? And the fact that the troubleshooting flowchart calls out these exact symptoms would seem to indicate that this is expected. But I'm curious why the KM11 can step the processor, in this case. I'm going to wait until the new fans arrive (hopefully tomorrow or tuesday) before I poke at this again, just looking for advice here on the off chance anyone's seen this behavior before. Thanks as always! - Josh -- TTFN - Guy
PDP-11/70 debugging advice
Hi all -- Making some progress with the "fire sale" PDP-11/70. Over the past month I've rebuilt the power supplies and burned them in on the bench, and I've gotten things cleaned up and reassembled. I'm still waiting on some new chassis fans but my curiosity overwhelmed my caution and I decided to power it up for a short time (like 30 seconds) just to see what happens. Good news: no smoke or fire. Voltages look good (need a tiny bit of adjustment yet) and AC LO and DC LO looked good everywhere I tested them. Bad news: processor is almost entirely unresponsive; comes up with the RUN and MASTER lights on, toggling Halt, and hitting Start causes the RUN light to go out, but that's the only response I get from the console. I got out the KM11 boardset and with that installed I can step through microinstructions and it's definitely executing them, and seems to be following the flow diagrams in the engineering drawings. Left to its own devices, however, the processor doesn't seem to be executing microinstructions at all, it's stuck at uAddress 200. In the troubleshooting section of the 11/70 service docs (diagram on p. 5-16) it states: IF LOAD ADRS DOES NOT WORK AND: - RUN, MASTER & ALL DATA INDICATORS ARE ON - uADRS = 200 (ZAP) THEN MEMORY HAS LOST POWER Which seems to adequately describe the symptoms I'm seeing, but as far as I can tell the AC and DC LO signals are all fine. (This system has a Setasi PEP70/Hypercache installed, so there's no separate memory chassis to worry about.) I'm going to go back and re-check everything, but I was curious if anyone knows whether loss of AC or DC would prevent the processor from executing microcode -- from everything I understand it should cause a trap, and I don't see anything in the docs about inhibiting microcode execution. But perhaps if this happens at power-up things behave differently? And the fact that the troubleshooting flowchart calls out these exact symptoms would seem to indicate that this is expected. But I'm curious why the KM11 can step the processor, in this case. I'm going to wait until the new fans arrive (hopefully tomorrow or tuesday) before I poke at this again, just looking for advice here on the off chance anyone's seen this behavior before. Thanks as always! - Josh
Serial numbers intelligence
Wayne after Ed: > As to the number sold, you should be able to get a sense of it by collecting > serial numbers from those who have them - once you get enough of them (maybe > 20 or so) you should get a sense of about where the numbering started and > where it ended. I'm curious to what degree people have used serial number intelligence gathering and countermeasures in the industry. Like were/are there market research firms that would go to Fry's and record numbers off of boxes to try to extrapolate sales for things like printer consumables, and whether companies like HP ever took measures to try to obfuscate the potential information content of their product serial numbers. I always thought this could be a fun business idea. You could do the same thing with similar data like fast food restaurant receipt numbers etc. It might be a good model for crowd-sourced data collection.
Re: Usenet and Google Groups
On 2021-01-31 3:21 p.m., John Foust via cctalk wrote: At 06:01 PM 1/30/2021, you wrote: Which Henry was that? Henry Spencer perhaps? Yes, Henry Spencer (formerly of zoo.toronto.edu). N. Another blast from the past. I haven't seen anything of or spoken with him in nearly 30 years. A legend, indeed, and one that only makes me upset about Google's Usenet archive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Spencer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Groups Couldn't Google just give someone else a copy of what Spencer (and everyone else) gave them? - John I worked with a gentleman for a while who studied at U of T and now teaches there, who told me about visiting Henry's office. He said all the lights where off save a small desk lamp and there was also a green screen terminal on his desk, a heater under the desk and the walls lined with book cases. This would have probably been in the mid to late 70s. I am surprised to hear it was only in 1981 that utzoo was started. I had my first exposure Usenet about that time too when I discovered that my workplace VM network had a read only service we could subscribe to usenet forums and have the updates delivered as VM notes. Paul.
RE: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for.
On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:01 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral? computers were sold.?? > > We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it > for.?? > > Of course we are looking for any advertising material, posters or anyting > visually related to this computer to make the display "more than just a > computer on the table"? > > Please let us know if you have any material that would fit this need!?? > > Thank you very much in advance > Ed Sharpe - Archivist?? for SMECC There is one up on Ebay where you can read the serial number - which is 2505A01815 (the first 4 digits are the build week/year indicator [maybe 25th week of 1985]; "A" is place of mfg [US]; 01815 is the number).
Re: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for.
Wayne.. yes please send the 2 serial numbers and others are invited to participate also. Probably good idea to send offlist to kerp from clogging lister. Thanks Ed# On Sunday, January 31, 2021 Smith, Wayne via cctalk wrote: On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:01 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral? computers were sold.?? > > We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it > for.?? > > Of course we are looking for any advertising material, posters or anyting > visually related to this computer to make the display "more than just a > computer on the table"? > > Please let us know if you have any material that would fit this need!?? > > Thank you very much in advance > Ed Sharpe - Archivist?? for SMECC As to the number sold, you should be able to get a sense of it by collecting serial numbers from those who have them - once you get enough of them (maybe 20 or so) you should get a sense of about where the numbering started and where it ended. I have two units and if you're interested I can pull the numbers and send them along.
Re: Usenet and Google Groups
On 31-01-2021 20:35, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote: > As my age catches up on me (more lately) I really miss many of > the people I knew in the early USENIX years. Sadly, they seem > to be fading from my memories faster every day now. Hear hear! Julf (formerly seismo!mcvax!penet!julf)
Re: Usenet and Google Groups
On 1/31/21 2:21 PM, John Foust via cctalk wrote: At 06:01 PM 1/30/2021, you wrote: Which Henry was that? Henry Spencer perhaps? Yes, Henry Spencer (formerly of zoo.toronto.edu). N. Another blast from the past. I haven't seen anything of or spoken with him in nearly 30 years. A legend, indeed, and one that only makes me upset about Google's Usenet archive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Spencer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Groups Couldn't Google just give someone else a copy of what Spencer (and everyone else) gave them? As my age catches up on me (more lately) I really miss many of the people I knew in the early USENIX years. Sadly, they seem to be fading from my memories faster every day now. bill
Usenet and Google Groups
At 06:01 PM 1/30/2021, you wrote: >>>Which Henry was that? Henry Spencer perhaps? >>Yes, Henry Spencer (formerly of zoo.toronto.edu). >>N. > >Another blast from the past. I haven't seen anything of or spoken with him in >nearly 30 years. A legend, indeed, and one that only makes me upset about Google's Usenet archive. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_Spencer https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Groups Couldn't Google just give someone else a copy of what Spencer (and everyone else) gave them? - John
Re: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for.
On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 9:01 AM ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral? computers were sold.?? > > We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it > for.?? > > Of course we are looking for any advertising material, posters or anyting > visually related to this computer to make the display "more than just a > computer on the table"? > > Please let us know if you have any material that would fit this need!?? > > Thank you very much in advance > Ed Sharpe - Archivist?? for SMECC As to the number sold, you should be able to get a sense of it by collecting serial numbers from those who have them - once you get enough of them (maybe 20 or so) you should get a sense of about where the numbering started and where it ended. I have two units and if you're interested I can pull the numbers and send them along.
Epson QX-10 hard drive
Greetings I recently purchased a QCS external hard disk on ebay. This was one of the companies that was selling DEC Rainbow hard drives. I had hoped it was an old Rainbow drive with interesting to me bits... Turns out it is an Epson QX-10 hard drive, full of interesting to bits for the QX-10 CP/M enthusiast. I've had trouble finding a suitable community to note this in should there be people around that care... so I thought I'd ask here is people know of good CP/M groups and/or QX-10/16 groups, mailing lists, irc channels, discord servers, etc I could find. Warner
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
I only have the S (well, there is a second one in the basement I need to drag up). I did have one of those little 4 slot dual width boxes that had a power supply but I sold it. Wouldn't help with quad width modules anyway. There's another BA23 down there, I'll probably try to haul it up next trip. Was going to go over today but snow so next week most likely. I need to sell some of this stuff. The HP1000 and the BA11-S will go on Ebay unless someone here wants to make an offer. C On 1/30/2021 5:20 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: Yes the BA11S would be too big. Can't see why not for the 11/03 chassis. I used to make a good living upgrading 1/03 chasses with four extra bits for the 11/23/73 (Hmm, where is my old stock of W933 bus strip!) Always works except in the MINC laboratory system, which used those four pins for module identification. Since all the memory is on-board with the 11/93 I don't think it would make a difference unless DMA used, and I don't plan to go that far! I could always wire-wrap them. Can you ship to Toronto, ON? How much? cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.john...@ieee.org On 2021-01-30 4:14 p.m., Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Hm. I have a 9 slot BA11-S that I have to sell/ebay/something here, but that's probably way too big for you. I wonder though: Would an 11/93 explode if put in a traditional 18 bit 11/03 chassis? The one with the memory refresh lines and power for core memory. Probably. CZ On 1/30/2021 12:30 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: I'm trying to repair an LSI-11/93 that has a bus timeout problem. Unfortunately the BA23 box it normally sits in lives in a cupboard with printers stowed on top of it and due to my domestic situation (small condo) I can't get it out to scope or get a scope anywhere near it to scope the bus. I'm thinking that the solution would be to get a small QBUS backplane that I can put on my desk in the middle of my test equipment. Like a 4-slot ABAB oir even ABCD would do. Does anybody have one they don't want? Power supply not needed. cheers, Nigel
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
Interesting. I have a Contemporary Cybernetics 8505 drive that I think used the Exabyte tape system, will have to dig it out and see what it looks like. Used them at the IEEE Computer Society for years but finally went with IBM LTO tape libraries at Science. The LTOs were more reliable. C On 1/30/2021 9:25 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: On 01/30/2021 07:41 PM, Nigel Johnson via cctalk wrote: btw, I found an Exabyte 8200 in a pile of stuff I bought at VCF East last year (but one :-) ) Does anybody on the list have experience getting this to work on a Dilog SQ703 under NetBSD? Exabytes are pretty classic SCSi tape drives. They come in single-ended and differential configurations, you need to check which you have. The downside is they have a short working life. Back in the day, there were outfits that would rebuild them at an affordable price, I think they cannibalized video drives for parts. I don't know what failed on them, but it seemed that whatever it was would fail even if powered-off and sitting on the shelf. You should have no trouble running them on anything that handles SCSI tape drives. Jon
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
Thanks Noel, Yes, I tried to repair an 11/34 once after somebody plugged a peripheral board into a memory slot - I was doing well after 3 or 4 chip chnages, it started to come to life, until I found the 20V went right into an d=address line of an in-house numbered ROM! Having been warned by angels I will take another route! cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.john...@ieee.org On 2021-01-30 11:51 p.m., Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Glen Slick > > > The KDJ11-E 11/93 has PMI signals on the CD connectors, so you need a > > Q/CD backplane > > I have this bit set that plugging a PMI card into a Q/Q slot will damage it? > (I think the issue is that some PMI pins are 12V on normal QBUS; too tired > to check tonight, I'll get to it tomorrow.) > > Noel
Re: Small DEC QBUS backplane
Not so lucky n Canada! They wanted $28 shipping! So I got a box of 10 for $28 - but delivery end of Feb. Back burner until then! Thanks Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591 nw.john...@ieee.org On 2021-01-31 12:28 a.m., Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > On Sat, Jan 30, 2021 at 6:16 PM Nigel Johnson via cctalk > wrote: >> I can't go very far with the EXB8200 because I don't have a cartridge >> for it. I am now trying the Compaq DLT4000. >> > You can still get boxes of sealed never used EXABYTE 112M 8mm data > tapes cheap. For example a quick search turned up a box of 5 sealed > tapes for $6 including shipping: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/124081752928 > > I didn't try searching for items located in Canada, I suppose that > might make things a bit more expensive.
Re: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for.
Thanks folks for the part number for ink jet cartridges. .. we have differnt interface standards version of Thinkjet plusevthe one in the integral so we can play still! Big thanks for the corisive ink warning. .. I had no idea! Hopefully we can turn up some poster art and other things to add to the display too! -Ed# On Sunday, January 31, 2021 Tony Duell wrote: On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 6:25 AM Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: > > On Jan 30, 2021, at 10:09, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Doug! No, we do not have a copy of this HP JOURNAL. We do not have > > manuals either. We,are lucky to have the unit wonder if you can still > > order ink for the printer. I do have an unopened ink cartrige. You can get scans of the manuals from the Australian HP museum site Do you have any expansion boards in it? Extra memory is very useful (and you can turn any of the boards into a 1MByte one by adding the chips and changing links). As is an RS232 interface (something that IMHO should have been built-in) Do NOT leave the ink cartridge in the machine. The ink is somewhat corrosive and if it leaks onto the flexiprint that connects the cartridge to the logic PCB it will damage it. Due to the layout of the machine the flexiprint is longer than the one in a normal Thinkjet so you can't just raid one of those for spares. Yes there is a way to kludge it with ribbon cable and connectors but it's best not to have the problem in the first place. > > HP 51604A. I was surprised a few months ago to find that Staples claims to > be able to sell new HP cartridges. Looking earlier today, HP can too! > > Seriously, we’re talking about ink cartridges including replacement print > heads for printers manufactured in 1983. I was equally surprised to find that ink ribbons for the Epson HX20 laptop (M160 printer mechanism) along with the ones for the narrower M150 mechanism are still being made. But as I've said before, I'd rather find parts for a machine made 30 years ago than one made 5 years ago. -tony
Re: Just curious how many Hewlett-Packard Integral computers were sold. We have one here at the SMECC Museum that we are building a display around it for.
On Sun, Jan 31, 2021 at 6:25 AM Frank McConnell via cctalk wrote: > > On Jan 30, 2021, at 10:09, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote: > > Hi Doug! No, we do not have a copy of this HP JOURNAL. We do not have > > manuals either. We,are lucky to have the unit wonder if you can still > > order ink for the printer. I do have an unopened ink cartrige. You can get scans of the manuals from the Australian HP museum site Do you have any expansion boards in it? Extra memory is very useful (and you can turn any of the boards into a 1MByte one by adding the chips and changing links). As is an RS232 interface (something that IMHO should have been built-in) Do NOT leave the ink cartridge in the machine. The ink is somewhat corrosive and if it leaks onto the flexiprint that connects the cartridge to the logic PCB it will damage it. Due to the layout of the machine the flexiprint is longer than the one in a normal Thinkjet so you can't just raid one of those for spares. Yes there is a way to kludge it with ribbon cable and connectors but it's best not to have the problem in the first place. > > HP 51604A. I was surprised a few months ago to find that Staples claims to > be able to sell new HP cartridges. Looking earlier today, HP can too! > > Seriously, we’re talking about ink cartridges including replacement print > heads for printers manufactured in 1983. I was equally surprised to find that ink ribbons for the Epson HX20 laptop (M160 printer mechanism) along with the ones for the narrower M150 mechanism are still being made. But as I've said before, I'd rather find parts for a machine made 30 years ago than one made 5 years ago. -tony
