Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 8:33 PM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > I just pulled out my blue box of fiche (VAX MDS), and verified I have the > B400X manual, which isn’t online. I’ll see about borrowing a fiche reader > tomorrow. I’ve never bothered to get one, I just borrow my Mom’s portable > reader, when I need it. > If you don't already have a copy of this one, it might be helpful: 400 Series Enclosures Illustrated Parts Breakdown, BA440, BA430, R400X, B400X https://vaxhaven.com/images/9/9d/EK-440AB-IP-002.pdf
Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400
On May 25, 2021, at 3:09 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk wrote: > > SII is the built-in DSSI interface. Is it terminated properly? As best as I can tell, especially after taking it partially apart this afternoon, it is. The terminator glows green. > SSC is (iirc) the System Support Chip ... that may be more serious. At this point, I suspect I have a CPU board that is partially dead. > FWIW I think the distinction between the 3300/3400 is the size of the box: > the innards are the same. (So same as the 3500/3600 and 3800/3900 and the > uV3100-30/40 etc.). I knew that was the case with the 3300/3400, 3500/3600, and 3800/3900. I feel a bit foolish to finally realize this is the case with the MicroVAX 3100-30/40, and others. > Both the uV3300 and the uV3400 use the KA640 board. As Glen points out, there is something strange about this one, as the chassis is even larger than a 3400. > If you plug KA640 into manx you'll find two useful manuals online. Thanks, I’m not sure I’ve ever used the site, though I’ve heard about it for years. I’d found the “KA640 CPU System Maintenance” manual, I hadn’t found the “KA640 CPU Module Technical Manual”. Hopefully it has some of the information I’m now searching for. I just pulled out my blue box of fiche (VAX MDS), and verified I have the B400X manual, which isn’t online. I’ll see about borrowing a fiche reader tomorrow. I’ve never bothered to get one, I just borrow my Mom’s portable reader, when I need it. Zane
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
That should presumably do just fine. It is PROBABLY the MFM Double Density format for the Osborne 1. But, more likely than not, that is probably what they have. The early FM Single Density wasn't around for long. 'course next step is for him to find a working machine with a 5.25" drive! (preferably "360K") On Wed, 26 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote: Sorry - I misread the post thinking Zane wanted to get raw disk images. For the actual CP/M contents you can use cpmtools: http://www.moria.de/~michael/cpmtools/ Cpmtools has disk definitions for the Osborne 1 and Osborne Nuevo/Vixen/4 so it is rather painless. Best regards Tom Hunter On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 12:38 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: Imagedisk is great for making images. BUT, the original request is not for images, it is for the previous owned wanting access to be able to use the content of the FILES that are in those images. On Tue, 25 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote: Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs with a decent floppy controller. As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is usable for imaging. Best regards Tom Hunter On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M. IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track, with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle it. Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track, with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives) WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your Catweasel, could do it. On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these? The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. I do have 5.25??? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I think mine went to Jim Willing). Zane
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
Sorry - I misread the post thinking Zane wanted to get raw disk images. For the actual CP/M contents you can use cpmtools: http://www.moria.de/~michael/cpmtools/ Cpmtools has disk definitions for the Osborne 1 and Osborne Nuevo/Vixen/4 so it is rather painless. Best regards Tom Hunter On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 12:38 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Imagedisk is great for making images. > > BUT, the original request is not for images, it is for the previous > owned wanting access to be able to use the content of the FILES that are > in those images. > > > On Tue, 25 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote: > > > Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs > with > > a decent floppy controller. > > As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is > > usable for imaging. > > > > Best regards > > Tom Hunter > > > > On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M. > >> > >> IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per > track, > >> with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will > >> require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave > >> Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can > handle > >> it. > >> > >> Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track, > >> with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh > >> will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives) > >> > >> > >> WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your > >> Catweasel, could do it. > >> > >> > >> > >> On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > >> > >>> A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading > >> Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these? > >>> > >>> The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. > >> I do have 5.25” floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I > >> think mine went to Jim Willing). > >>> > >>> Zane >
Re: IBM PC Network
Jim, Dave, Thank you for your very interesting emails. On 5/23/21 3:49 AM, Dave Wade G4UGM via cctalk wrote: I would say they are all old enough and obsolete enough to be considered "in scope" on here. I'm glad to know that. That means that some more of my hobbies are in scope to discuss on cctalk. :-) -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: VAXstation 4000 Mice?
On 20/05/2021 18:22, Jonathan Stone via cctalk wrote: It does indeed need a VSXXX-AA mouse (the round puck) or a I have a VSXXX-AA mouse from an old VAXStation that we added a cable extension to. Does anybody need one? Thanks, Jon
Re: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent
On 5/23/21 4:27 PM, Richard Pope via cctalk wrote: Grant and et al, There are probably a dozen MBs from 386 to P-4 with some AMD Opetrons. There are ISA cards, EISA cards, PCI cards, PCI -E cards, and AGP cards. Serial cards, SCSI cards, Ethernet cards, Arcnet cards, video cards and video with TV cards, Parallel Cards, IDE cards, Multi-function with Serial, Parallel, IDE, and Floppy cards, unknown quantity at this point on the expansion cards. Dozens of SIMMS, DIMMS, 8 bit and 9 bit. All kinds of speeds. Parallel cables, serial cables, at least a hundred power cables, Arcnet cables, video cables, Ethernet cables, telephone cables, audio cables, internal and external, ide cables, SCSI cables internal and external, Ethernet hubs and switches, unknown quantity, PATA HD Drives, SCSI HDDs, Tape drives both SCSI and PATA, CD-Rom drives PATA and maybe SCSI, Floppy Drives, hundreds of different types of blanks that go on the back of computer cases, MB adapter plates, an External SCSI Drive case, Power supplies a Complete Opetron based computer, monitors, printers, apple computers, a Sony true multisync monitor, UPS', speakers, internal and external, lots of books, software. It is 30 years of collecting and repairing computers. That sounds like a very interesting collection. I am definitely interested in /parts/ of it. But, unfortunately I'm not in a position to take on such a purchase ($500+$750) myself at this time. Especially after unexpectedly spending nearly that much on the HVAC this week. :-( The gold alone is worth more than what I am asking for everything! rich! I'll take your word for that. My uninformed opinion is that the amount of gold in most electronics is not worth the effort. I'm sure that used to be different than it is now. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 1:32 PM Zane Healy wrote: > > > It turns out that the oddness was the CPU Board, and a 16MB Clearpoint RAM > board. What I thought was the CPU, is really the header panel over the RAM > and TK70 controller. There is also a M9715 between the CPU and the > powersupply that I’d missed seeing. The cables to get to the DSSI connector > by the Powersupply are hanging out the front. Basically it’s a cable going > from the KA640 to a ribbon cable to a cab kit, then DSSI cable from that to > the connector next to the power supply. > Sounds like somewhat of a mongrel system. An M7624 KA640 CPU would typically be found in a 12-slot BA213 as a MicroVAX 3400, or in a smaller 6-slot BA215 as a MicroVAX 3300. As far as I can tell a 12-slot B400X is essentially exactly the same thing as a BA430, where it is a BA430 when used as a VAX 4000-200 with an M7626 KA660 CPU, and a B400X when used as a Q-bus and storage expander. An interesting thing about the BA430 backplane is that in addition to the M7626 KA660 CPU DSSI bus being present on the 50-pin connector, it is also present on the C/D connectors, and the BA430 backplane routes the DSSI bus on slot 1 C/D connectors to the DSSI storage device bays without the need for a DSSI cable. If I remember correctly the DSSI bus is only present on the 50-pin connector of the M7624 KA640 CPU, not on the C/D connectors, so a DSSI cable is needed with that CPU. The hidden M9715 board in slot 0 between the CPU slot 1 and the power supply provides termination power to the internal DSSI and SCSI buses of the BA430 / B400X backplane. It also has a connector which routes to the DSSI bus on the C/D connectors. In the BA430 nothing connects to the M9715 connector as the DSSI bus should be coming from the M7626 KA660 CPU C/D connectors. In the B400X there should be an external bulkhead DSSI connector with a ribbon cable to the M9715 connector. In both the BA430 / B400X there should be another external DSSI connector to the left of slot 12, which is the other end of the DSSI bus. So it sounds like you have a B400X with the M9715 internally cabled to the external bulkhead DSSI connector as usual, and the M7624 KA640 CPU internally cabled to an external bulkhead DSSI connector, and then an external DSSI cable between those two bulkhead connectors. If that is basically how the DSSI things were cabled up, did you also have a DSSI terminator on the bulkhead connector to the left of slot 12? Without checking this myself with a M7624 KA640 CPU you probably get some sort of errors somewhere if the end of the DSSI bus is not terminated. If you were to find an M7626 KA660 CPU you could do away with all of the DSSI cabling between the CPU and the M9715 (in addition to having a CPU that is around twice as fast).
Re: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent
On Sun, 2021-05-23 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org wrote: > To: Grant Taylor , > gene...@ezwind.net, discuss...@ezwind.net:On-Topic and Off- > Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent > Message-ID: <60a9dfde.9080...@charter.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed > > Grant and et al, > I have several hundred MB and expansion cards from 30 years ago > up > to about 5 years ago. I would like to sell all of my computer > equipment. > Boards, cards, cables, covers, printers, monitors, computers. The > whole > works. > I probably have cancer and if I do I am dead. i have been > selling > off everything that I own and I have been using the funds to drive > all > around the country full filling my bucket list. Please help me by > taking > everything off my hands? I still have two Simpson 260 VOMs that I > want > to see go to a good home instead of hitting the trash. > Grant, Randy has not responded to me. Yes, I have Arcnet and > Ethernet ISA cards. What info do you need? > GOD Bless and Thanks, > rich! Man, that bites. Seen too many people I know die of cancer. Simpson meters are nice, and having an analog around is good, hope someone snags them. Too rich for my blood. Reminds me have a old NRI VTVM I need to get working, think I'm gonna try to wire in a 50B5 instead of the dead 50C5. FETVOMs interest me but don't see many of those around.
Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 80, Issue 22
On Mon, 2021-05-24 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org wrote: > Message: 25 > Date: Mon, 24 May 2021 09:24:22 -0700 > From: Jason Howe > To: Chris Zach , "General Discussion: On- > Topic > and Off-Topic Posts" > Subject: Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago > Message-ID: > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > > On Sun, 2021-05-23 at 21:34 -0400, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: > > Anyone know if the LCM will be open > > > Considering there is no staff as they were all laid off and have now > all found other jobs, I'd guess that's a hard no. They'd basically > need to spin up from 0 again -- considering Vulcan shut down LCM, > Cinerama and the Flying Heritage Museum as soon as they could after > Paul's death -- I put my money on asset dispersal, rather than > reopening. > > I say with a pit in my stomach as a former member and regular > visitor. > > EMP (or whatever the hell they're called now) survived because they > had > been spun off as a separate legal entity from Paul's Vulcan empire. > > > --Jason I fear so as well, but one of the other MS teachers in my district has done some remote training recently through them, so there might still be hope.
Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400
On 25/05/2021 18:53, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: I’m still not 100% sure if this is a 3300 or a 3400. It’s in a BA400X chassis, and after looking at the manuals last night, it seems like it’s closer to the 3400. My familarity with Q-Bus MicroVAXen is limited to MicroVAX/VAXstation II’s, and a MicroVAX 3. After getting a power cable (the only one at PCH Cables was a 3’ one, and I didn’t want to wait for more to come in), it powered right up, but is failing 4 tests. I quickly learned last night that “TEST 9E” prints all the tests out to screen. This effort is making me wish I had a DEC LA50 plugged into the terminal. :-) It starts counting down diagnostics at “41”. 27.. ?57 2 17 FF 00 22.. ?C2 2 01 FF 00 0001 07.. ?5C 2 01 FF 00 0002 06.. ?5D 2 0B FF 00 0003 57 = SI_memory incr test_matter * C2 = SSC RAM ALL* 5C = SII_initiator ** 5D = SII target *** I think this is indicating issues with the DSSI interface. The system has two RF73 DSSI drives, which sound like they spin up. It also has a TK70 tape drive. It says it has 4MB and 16MB RAM, all good. One odd thing is that the KA640-A seems to plug into another board, before the DSSI drives. I’m getting ready to dig into that, and find out what that board is. Zane SII is the built-in DSSI interface. Is it terminated properly? SSC is (iirc) the System Support Chip ... that may be more serious. FWIW I think the distinction between the 3300/3400 is the size of the box: the innards are the same. (So same as the 3500/3600 and 3800/3900 and the uV3100-30/40 etc.). Both the uV3300 and the uV3400 use the KA640 board. If you plug KA640 into manx you'll find two useful manuals online. Antonio -- Antonio Carlini anto...@acarlini.com
Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400
On May 25, 2021, at 11:54 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk wrote: > > On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 10:54 AM Zane Healy via cctalk > wrote: >> >> One odd thing is that the KA640-A seems to plug into another board, before >> the DSSI drives. I’m getting ready to dig into that, and find out what that >> board is. >> > > Is that an M9715 board plugged into the backplane between the CPU > board slot and the power supply, or something else? > > Or is there a cable plugged into the DSSI connector on the M7624 KA640 > adjacent to the memory bus connector that plugs into a some board and > stops there, and then another cable from that board to the DSSI > drives? Do the DSSI drives plug into the backplane, or do they have > cables connecting to them? It turns out that the oddness was the CPU Board, and a 16MB Clearpoint RAM board. What I thought was the CPU, is really the header panel over the RAM and TK70 controller. There is also a M9715 between the CPU and the powersupply that I’d missed seeing. The cables to get to the DSSI connector by the Powersupply are hanging out the front. Basically it’s a cable going from the KA640 to a ribbon cable to a cab kit, then DSSI cable from that to the connector next to the power supply. I disconnected the DSSI cable from the KA640 (M7624), and got the same errors. The more I play with this, the more I like the chassis, and the more I want to get it going. This chassis is definitely better than the 3rd party rack-mount chassis that my MicroVAX 3 lives in. If it was working, it would simply need my RLV12 moved to it to be perfect. At this point, I’m suspecting an issue with the KA640 board. Zane
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
On Tue, 25 May 2021, Peter Coghlan via cctalk wrote: Early on, floppy disks on the BBC Micro were 5.25in FM with 10 sectors per track and 256 bytes per sector. However, BBC Micros are probably not common where you are and some programming in 6502 assembly or BBC Basic and a knowledge of the Osbourne filesystem would be required. I might be persuaded to offer the use of a BBC Micro and to do the programming if it is feasable to send me the disks and details of the filesystem involved, assuming a more convenient solution doesn't come up. That should be very suitable for the FM SIngle Density ones, as that is the same physical format. Osborne was an ordinary CP/M, which is fairly well documented. I don't have convenient access right now to the parameters. Basically, there is a boot sector and system track(s) (How many "reserved"/system tracks varies). Then there are sectors with the directory (how many sectors varies) In the Directory, each file entry is 32 bytes, with the file name and a list of blocks that the file occupies on the disk. If there are more blocks than will fit in the list in the directory entry, there is a second entry for the file. Each block is 8 or 16 128 byte records (which are often called "sectors" to confuse you. On old versions of CP/M, if the machine is available, STAT DSK: will tell you most of the parameters. What it doesn't tell you is the physical sector size (how many LOGICAL "sectors" are in each physical sector), interleave, and, on double sided disks, whether the second side acts as continuation of the first side tracks, or whether the second side tracks come after the first side tracks starting at the inner OR outer tracks. And, there can be numerous other oddities, . . .
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
On Tue, 25 May 2021, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote: I think there were some bootable Osborne floppies which still retained a single density boot track even when the rest of the media was formatted as double density. Regular data disks are probably consistent throughout, but it's just something else to consider depending on the nature of the media that's being accessed. Thankfully there seem to be far more PC controllers out there that will at least read FM data than there are ones that can also write it. For copying FILES, that shouldn't be a problem. For making IMAGES of the disks that would be. For copying FILES, you would only be accessing the DIRectory sectors, and the tracks following them, with no need to even look at boot sector or system track(s). But, that's still a useful warning, to NOT try to tell whether the disk is FM or MFM based on track 0! -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
On 5/24/21 1:26 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M. IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track, with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle it. Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track, with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh will work with appropriate software. I think there were some bootable Osborne floppies which still retained a single density boot track even when the rest of the media was formatted as double density. Regular data disks are probably consistent throughout, but it's just something else to consider depending on the nature of the media that's being accessed. Thankfully there seem to be far more PC controllers out there that will at least read FM data than there are ones that can also write it. Jules
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
On Tue, 25 May 2021, Zane Healy wrote: Yes, we need to be able to access the files. I’m going to see if my old 486 will still boot up, I know I used to use it with imaging RX50 floppies. I’m not an x86 collector, so have a pretty limited selection of PC Hardware. I’m on my Sabbatical right now, so this request came in at a good time. Though first I have to finish up on some VAX and Alpha systems I’m working on, so as to free up space. That or finish a cleaning project in my office. :-) The cleaning project is needed to finish the VAX/Alpha projects… Is there any chances of reading these with Commodore 128 running CP/M, or a Kaypro 2? The Kaypro is definitely on my “project list”, it worked last time I played with it. I *might* have a DEC Rainbow, or I might have given it away. If I do, I have no idea of its condition. An Apple //e would be another old system with 5.25” drives, but seems more unlikely. I might still have an old Kaypro PC, though it hasn’t been used since ’94 (and there is a good chance it went to LCM). My focus is DEC and Commodore, though I do have a lot of Apple // gear. Zane For a while, Uniform was bundled with some Kaypro models. The Kaypro HARDWARE can certainly do the MFM double density ones (~200K) with Uniform, but I don't know ehther it can do the FM single density (~100K) ones. The Commodore 128 with CP/M should be hardware capable, but I don't know of any software for it. Did they bundle any disk format conversion software with it? DEC Rainbow would be hardware capable, but I don't know what software there is. There was a program 35 years ago, . . . Apple2 can NOT do it. Well, unless you have one of the aftermarket IBM/WD/MFM supporting disk controller boards, such as the Sorrento Valley Associates. PC can normally do it. 360K drive preferred. Almost anything from 5150 up can do the MFM dounle density. Dave Dunfield's TESTFDC can tell you whether the hardware can do the FM Single Density. XenoCopy used to support the MFM double density Osborne format, but NOT the FM Single Density. Chuck implied that 22Disk could do BOTH. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 10:54 AM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > One odd thing is that the KA640-A seems to plug into another board, before > the DSSI drives. I’m getting ready to dig into that, and find out what that > board is. > Is that an M9715 board plugged into the backplane between the CPU board slot and the power supply, or something else? Or is there a cable plugged into the DSSI connector on the M7624 KA640 adjacent to the memory bus connector that plugs into a some board and stops there, and then another cable from that board to the DSSI drives? Do the DSSI drives plug into the backplane, or do they have cables connecting to them?
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
Early on, floppy disks on the BBC Micro were 5.25in FM with 10 sectors per track and 256 bytes per sector. However, BBC Micros are probably not common where you are and some programming in 6502 assembly or BBC Basic and a knowledge of the Osbourne filesystem would be required. I might be persuaded to offer the use of a BBC Micro and to do the programming if it is feasable to send me the disks and details of the filesystem involved, assuming a more convenient solution doesn't come up. Regards, Peter Coghlan. Zane Healy wrote: > Yes, we need to be able to access the files. > > I’m going to see if my old 486 will still boot up, I know I used to > use it with imaging RX50 floppies. I’m not an x86 collector, so > have a pretty limited selection of PC Hardware. I’m on my Sabbatical > right now, so this request came in at a good time. Though first I have > to finish up on some VAX and Alpha systems I’m working on, so as to > free up space. That or finish a cleaning project in my office. :-) > The cleaning project is needed to finish the VAX/Alpha projects… > > Is there any chances of reading these with Commodore 128 running CP/M, or > a Kaypro 2? The Kaypro is definitely on my “project list”, it > worked last time I played with it. I *might* have a DEC Rainbow, or > I might have given it away. If I do, I have no idea of its condition. > An Apple //e would be another old system with 5.25” drives, but seems > more unlikely. I might still have an old Kaypro PC, though it hasn’t > been used since ’94 (and there is a good chance it went to LCM). > > My focus is DEC and Commodore, though I do have a lot of Apple // gear. > > Zane > > > > >> On May 25, 2021, at 9:38 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> Imagedisk is great for making images. >> >> BUT, the original request is not for images, it is for the previous owned >> wanting access to be able to use the content of the FILES that are in those >> images. >> >> >> On Tue, 25 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote: >> >>> Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs with >>> a decent floppy controller. >>> As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is >>> usable for imaging. >>> >>> Best regards >>> Tom Hunter >>> >>> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk >>> >>> wrote: >>> There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M. IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track, with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle it. Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track, with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives) WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your Catweasel, could do it. On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these? > > The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. I do have 5.25” floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I think mine went to Jim Willing). > > Zane >
Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....
the stuff is in horrible condition, same as the machines Josh referred to from Pittsburg Better than digging it out of a dumpster. Yep, an oil burner basement is not the best place to put things, but then again we don't get to choose when we drop dead. (sigh). I appreciate the work you're doing with others to get the data read: I've been reading out the DEC floppies and most of them seem to be readable at this point into disk images (up on www.crystel.com) On a side note, the Megaframe computer (Convergent systems) was picked up last week along with one of the two AT&T 7300's. I've decided to hang on to the other as a memory of Bob kind of thing. CZ
MicroVAX 3300/3400
I’m still not 100% sure if this is a 3300 or a 3400. It’s in a BA400X chassis, and after looking at the manuals last night, it seems like it’s closer to the 3400. My familarity with Q-Bus MicroVAXen is limited to MicroVAX/VAXstation II’s, and a MicroVAX 3. After getting a power cable (the only one at PCH Cables was a 3’ one, and I didn’t want to wait for more to come in), it powered right up, but is failing 4 tests. I quickly learned last night that “TEST 9E” prints all the tests out to screen. This effort is making me wish I had a DEC LA50 plugged into the terminal. :-) It starts counting down diagnostics at “41”. 27.. ?57 2 17 FF 00 22.. ?C2 2 01 FF 00 0001 07.. ?5C 2 01 FF 00 0002 06.. ?5D 2 0B FF 00 0003 57 = SI_memory incr test_matter * C2 = SSC RAM ALL* 5C = SII_initiator ** 5D = SII target *** I think this is indicating issues with the DSSI interface. The system has two RF73 DSSI drives, which sound like they spin up. It also has a TK70 tape drive. It says it has 4MB and 16MB RAM, all good. One odd thing is that the KA640-A seems to plug into another board, before the DSSI drives. I’m getting ready to dig into that, and find out what that board is. Zane
Re: COMPAQ ISA PC to ethernent
On 5/24/21 11:47 PM, Richard Pope wrote: Grant, Hi Rich, Did you receive my last email? Yes, I did receive it. I've not had an opportunity to reply to it. -- Grant. . . . unix || die
Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....
> On May 25, 2021, at 1:09 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk > wrote: > > On 5/25/21 8:58 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: >>> I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after >>> valuable items much better than most museums can. >> As one who does estate cleanups professionally, I have a wildly >> different opinion... > > And as someone who has had CHM paying my bills for 15 years and letting > me put out what I have on bitsavers, I do as well. You aren't going to > have people working full time on old computer preservation with proper > preservation facilities that will outlive their founders without funding > behind it. LOTS of funding. That was the reason the original Computer > Museum failed. No endowment. "Endowment" is key here. The personal wealth of a single person is not a safe substitute, as the LCM story has demonstrated. paul
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
Yes, we need to be able to access the files. I’m going to see if my old 486 will still boot up, I know I used to use it with imaging RX50 floppies. I’m not an x86 collector, so have a pretty limited selection of PC Hardware. I’m on my Sabbatical right now, so this request came in at a good time. Though first I have to finish up on some VAX and Alpha systems I’m working on, so as to free up space. That or finish a cleaning project in my office. :-) The cleaning project is needed to finish the VAX/Alpha projects… Is there any chances of reading these with Commodore 128 running CP/M, or a Kaypro 2? The Kaypro is definitely on my “project list”, it worked last time I played with it. I *might* have a DEC Rainbow, or I might have given it away. If I do, I have no idea of its condition. An Apple //e would be another old system with 5.25” drives, but seems more unlikely. I might still have an old Kaypro PC, though it hasn’t been used since ’94 (and there is a good chance it went to LCM). My focus is DEC and Commodore, though I do have a lot of Apple // gear. Zane > On May 25, 2021, at 9:38 AM, Fred Cisin via cctalk > wrote: > > Imagedisk is great for making images. > > BUT, the original request is not for images, it is for the previous owned > wanting access to be able to use the content of the FILES that are in those > images. > > > On Tue, 25 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote: > >> Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs with >> a decent floppy controller. >> As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is >> usable for imaging. >> >> Best regards >> Tom Hunter >> >> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk >> wrote: >> >>> There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M. >>> >>> IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track, >>> with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will >>> require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave >>> Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle >>> it. >>> >>> Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track, >>> with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh >>> will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives) >>> >>> >>> WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your >>> Catweasel, could do it. >>> >>> >>> >>> On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: >>> A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading >>> Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these? The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. >>> I do have 5.25” floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I >>> think mine went to Jim Willing). Zane
Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....
On 5/25/21 9:57 AM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Bob's basement has been like a little time machine for the Perq lovers the stuff is in horrible condition, same as the machines Josh referred to from Pittsburg
Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....
On 5/25/21 8:58 AM, William Donzelli via cctalk wrote: I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after valuable items much better than most museums can. As one who does estate cleanups professionally, I have a wildly different opinion... And as someone who has had CHM paying my bills for 15 years and letting me put out what I have on bitsavers, I do as well. You aren't going to have people working full time on old computer preservation with proper preservation facilities that will outlive their founders without funding behind it. LOTS of funding. That was the reason the original Computer Museum failed. No endowment. It was also why CHAC failed and its collection ended up at History San Jose, with most of it being ecycled when they got it. CHAC's collection was especially sad since before it went to HSJ it sat on the ground in storage containers and was a mushroom farm.
Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....
Based on the number of items I've rescued from rotting garages, basements, and warehouses owned (or formerly owned) by enthusiastic and competent individuals with the best of intentions -- both as part of my former job and my ongoing hobby over the past 20+ years -- I can say with confidence that this, uh, may not be strictly true. There is that, however I will say that Bob's basement has been like a little time machine for the Perq lovers: 17 years ago that stuff was common and everyone got rid of it. Now it's back and being preserved. Still, I'm not donating either of the Perq1's, the 2 or the 2+ to a museum any time soon. It's a problem. Compounded by the fact that we need to get a new young (like 20's age) generation interested in this stuff. Otherwise it will be like pocket watches which fell out of fashion, were all trashed, and only now are the few survivors considered "heirlooms". C
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
Imagedisk is great for making images. BUT, the original request is not for images, it is for the previous owned wanting access to be able to use the content of the FILES that are in those images. On Tue, 25 May 2021, Tom Hunter wrote: Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs with a decent floppy controller. As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is usable for imaging. Best regards Tom Hunter On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M. IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track, with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle it. Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track, with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives) WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your Catweasel, could do it. On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these? The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. I do have 5.25??? floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I think mine went to Jim Willing). Zane
Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....
> I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after > valuable items much better than most museums can. As one who does estate cleanups professionally, I have a wildly different opinion... -- Will
Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 6:35 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > I have learned not to trust any computer museum to properly look after any > artefacts in the long run. I have seen the following: > >- they lose funding and shut down; >- the building they had for free is sold or demolished and the >collection no longer has a home; >- museum management changes and they decide to no longer display certain >objects; >- they replace real objects with fancy multimedia presentations; >- they suck in anything and everything and send unwanted items or >duplicates to the dumpster rather than trying to find a new home for > stuff >they don't want or need; > > Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item. > They almost never will no matter how secure you think your agreement with > them is. > > I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after > valuable items much better than most museums can. > Based on the number of items I've rescued from rotting garages, basements, and warehouses owned (or formerly owned) by enthusiastic and competent individuals with the best of intentions -- both as part of my former job and my ongoing hobby over the past 20+ years -- I can say with confidence that this, uh, may not be strictly true. Pay your rent. Keep the roof on your garage in good condition, and keep the rodents out. Know when to stop collecting. *** Make a will, and have a succession plan that's more than "my significant other will know what to do" *** - Josh > > Best regards > Tom Hunter > > > > > >
Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....
On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:35 PM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > I have learned not to trust any computer museum to properly look after any > artefacts in the long run. I have seen the following: > >- they lose funding and shut down; >- the building they had for free is sold or demolished and the >collection no longer has a home; >- museum management changes and they decide to no longer display certain >objects; >- they replace real objects with fancy multimedia presentations; >- they suck in anything and everything and send unwanted items or >duplicates to the dumpster rather than trying to find a new home for stuff >they don't want or need; I made similar comments about museums [1] here about 30 years ago and was flamed spectacularly for it. Ho-hum... [1] And also about the cluelessness of their restorations and who they get to do said restorations. It is a very different job to keep a machine running when it is still supported by the manufacturer and where official spare FRUs are available as against restoring a machine that nobody has seen running for 10 years and for which if there are any official spares they are in unknown condition. I know of at least one exception to some of the above in the UK, but it's a vintage rado museum, not a computer museum. In particular their demostration are the real things, not mockups or multi-media presentations (I am not sure there's even a computer on the site!). You might end up looking at a live-chassis television set with a metal-cone CRT running with the cabinet off. Meaning the metal chassis is connected directly to the mains, and the metal cone of the CRT is at about 15kV wrt earth. You know not to touch it,right... Also if they are given a duplicate item, or something that doesn't really fit into the museum collection, they sell tt (in the former case they keep the 'better' one for the museum and sell the other) to an enthusiast at IMHO a good price. > > Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item. > They almost never will no matter how secure you think your agreement with > them is. > > I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after > valuable items much better than most museums can. But has been said before, MAKE A WILL A proper legal document explaining what you want to happen to your collection if you pass away. In the UK, not abiding by the terms of somebody's will is quite a serious offence. Another thing I was flamed for 30 years ago was saying that just because somebody is rich, it doesn't mean they will take more care of a classic computer than the rest of us. Looks like I might be right there too. In particular, for most us our computer collection is the second most valuable thing we own (after the house). Which means it is likely to be 'taken seriously' if mentioned in a will or whatever. If the computer collections is 'lost in the noise' as it might be for a rich person with antiques, business interests, etc then it is much more likely not to be preserved. -tony
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
Dunfield's ImageDisk reads and writes them just fine on most older PCs with a decent floppy controller. As Chuck G writes "TestFDC" will tell you if the floppy controller is usable for imaging. Best regards Tom Hunter On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 2:26 AM Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > There were two Osborne floppy formats. Both CP/M. > > IIRC, the original format was "Single Density" (FM), 10 sectors per track, > with 256 bytes per sector (similar to the TRS80-Model-1. That will > require FM/SD capability. Most NEC FDCs did not support that. Dave > Dunfield has a test program that will tell you whether your FDC can handle > it. > > Then, they switched to "Double Density" (MFM) IIRC: 5 sectors per track, > with 1024 bytes per sector. Any PC FDC with access to INT13h and INT1Eh > will work with appropriate software. (NOT external USB drives) > > > WITH appropriate software, a flux transition device, such as your > Catweasel, could do it. > > > > On Mon, 24 May 2021, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > > > A photographer I know contacted me last night asking about reading > Osborne 1 floppies. What does it take to read these? > > > > The only Catweasel board I have is the old Zorro 2 board for the Amiga. > I do have 5.25” floppy drives. Neither of us have an Osborne anymore (I > think mine went to Jim Willing). > > > > Zane >
Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....
> On May 25, 2021, at 9:35 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk > wrote: > > ... > Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item. At least in the USA, that's true for all museums, and for some insane reason the courts permit them to do this. There are infamous court cases involving museums acting in direct opposition to the terms of a trust that created them or gave them their collections, and somehow the judges involved managed to come up with a "reasoning" why they should get away with that. paul
Re: Writings on AI from 17 years ago....
I have learned not to trust any computer museum to properly look after any artefacts in the long run. I have seen the following: - they lose funding and shut down; - the building they had for free is sold or demolished and the collection no longer has a home; - museum management changes and they decide to no longer display certain objects; - they replace real objects with fancy multimedia presentations; - they suck in anything and everything and send unwanted items or duplicates to the dumpster rather than trying to find a new home for stuff they don't want or need; Don't trust that museums will abide by your wishes when you donate an item. They almost never will no matter how secure you think your agreement with them is. I believe that enthusiastic and competent individuals will look after valuable items much better than most museums can. Best regards Tom Hunter > >
