Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 2:35 PM Zane Healy  wrote:
>
> One question, do I need to worry about the batteries on the H3602-SA panel?  
> I can’t imagine that this would be causing any issue.
>

Yes, you do need to worry about the Ni-Cad battery pack on the
H3602-SA panel. Remove it and throw it away. If it hasn't started
leaking and causing corrosion yet it is only a matter of time before
it does. I have removed all of the Ni-Cad battery packs from all of
the VAX systems I have.

> An interesting thing about the BA430 backplane is that in addition to
> the M7626 KA660 CPU DSSI bus being present on the 50-pin connector, it
> is also present on the C/D connectors, and the BA430 backplane routes
> the DSSI bus on slot 1 C/D connectors to the DSSI storage device bays
> without the need for a DSSI cable.
>
> I finally found that, in the “KA660 CPU System Maintenance” manual.  What’s 
> interesting is that there is also a 50-pin header on the KA660, and I’m not 
> yet clear on why. :-)
>

The M7626 KA660 VAX 4000-200 was available in BA430 and BA215 enclosures.

VAX 4000 Model 200 (BA215) Installation, Order Number EK-432AB-IN-002
https://manx-docs.org/collections/antonio/dec/MDS-2000-01/cd1/VAX/432ABIN2.PDF

In the BA430 enclosure the KA660 DSSI bus is connected to the DSSI bus
on the backplane through the KA660 C/D connectors, and nothing is
connected to the 50-pin DSSI connector on the front of the KA660
module.

In the BA215 enclosure the DSSI bus is cable based and connects to the
50-pin DSSI connector on the front of the KA660 module.

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On May 26, 2021, at 3:38 PM, Jonathan Stone  wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 02:35:32 PM PDT, Zane Healy via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> []
> 
> two points: 
> 
> 1. MS650-AA 8mb modules from a KA650 will work in a KA640. They won't work 
> with a KA655 or a kA660 (or a KN210_. Those need the MS650-BA, or the 16MB 
> MS650-BB, or the third-party 32MB modules. So if your KA640 is dead and you 
> want to upgrade, you will likely need new memory, too. (You likely know this 
> already.)

THANK YOU!  I didn’t realize this.  I’m not sure what the modules are in the 
MicroVAX 3, or how big they are.  They’re in a computer rack that requires some 
effort to access, so I haven’t gotten to them yet.  It sounds like I’d best 
have a look at RAM...

> 2. A few times over the last year, I've read an online service manual 
> detailing how to turn a BA430 into a BA400X.
> That manual describes pulling the CPU and inserting the DSSI"paddle board" in 
> the first slot. That manual should be. useful in understanding your 
> nonstandard chassis. However, if I recall correctly, I think you need to 
> remove the "paddle board" and put the CPU into the first slot, for 
> bus-termination reasons. The memory modules need to move one slot over to 
> match. I don't know if that will help with your diag failures, but it seems 
> worth trying.

Do you happen to know what Manual this is?  I’ve spent a lot of the last couple 
days reading up on the BA430/B400X, and the KA640/KA660.

Zane

Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 5/26/21 8:12 PM, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote:


I don't remember the limitations of the unregistered Teledisk program, but something in the back of my mind says Dave Dunfields IMD (?) will 
translate Teledisk programs.


Something I've found very useful over the years is the Don Maslin archive (I think also posted on bitsavers.) A quick check shows (at least 
the ones I looked at) the Osborne protgrams available in Teledisk format as:


Don's files are here in a better organized form
http://www.retroarchive.org/maslin/index.html

Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?

[Marvin Johnston via cctalk]

I don't remember the limitations of the unregistered Teledisk program, 
but something in the back of my mind says Dave Dunfields IMD (?) will 
translate Teledisk programs.


Something I've found very useful over the years is the Don Maslin 
archive (I think also posted on bitsavers.) A quick check shows (at 
least the ones I looked at) the Osborne protgrams available in Teledisk 
format as:


NameFormat  Description
OS1BASICSSSDOsborne 1 Basic disk
OS1DBASESSSDdBase II program disk
OS1DIAS SSSDOsborne 1 diagnostics disk
OS1MCAL SSSDOsborne 1 communications disk
OS1MDM7 SSSDOsborne 1 Modem 740
OS1SYSS SSSDOsborne 1 system disk
OS1UTLS SSSDOsborne 1 utilities disk
OS1WRDSTSSSDOsborne 1 Wordstar disk
OS1XUTLSSSSDOsborne 1 extended utilities

OS1NUEVOSSDDOsborne 1 with DD and 80 col mods
OS1SYSD SSDDOsborne 1 system disk (SSDD upgrade)

OSE-CPMASSDDOsborne Executive CP/M 3.0 system disk #1
OSE-CPMBSSDDOsborne Executive CP/M 3.0 system disk #2
OSE-CPMCSSDDOsborne Executive CP/M 3.0 system disk #3
OSE-PSYSSSDDUCSD p-System disk for Osborne Executive

OSV-SYS DSDDOsborne Vixen CP/M 2.2 w/ MBasic & Media Master
OSV-WS  DSDDOsborne Vixen bootable Wordstar & Supercalc 2
OSV-SC2 DSDDOsborne Vixen bootable w/ Supercalc templates

OS1DBASEZIP dBase II v2.3 for Osborne 1




On 5/26/2021 7:01 PM, Zane Healy wrote:
On May 26, 2021, at 11:12 AM, Marvin Johnston > wrote:
Depending on when you need them, VCFMW is coming up in a few months. I 
have a number of Osborne 1's as well as a couple of 386 machines set 
up with Teledisk (I bought it *years* ago when it became available to 
listmembers), imagedisk, and *maybe* Dave Dunfields IMD(?). As VCFMW 
gets closer and you still need these floppies read, let me know and 
I'll put the machines in with the stash of "junque" to unload :).


I *think* you are on the East coast, and it would surprise me if the 
RICM doesn't have working Osbornes.


Marvin


Both the person with the floppies, and I are in Oregon.

I remember that Teledisk buy, thanks, you pointed me in the right 
direction, and I found backups of my DOS C:\ Drive on my Mac with 
Teledisk and 22Disk, it looks like they’re both unlicensed copies 
though.  That group purchase was way in March ’99, I managed to find the 
email from Bruce Lane, that was the HARD part, then I had to find the 
email attachment.  That was easy.  If Mail.app would do a better job of 
searching my email archives, it would have been easy to find the email 
itself.


Zane

Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On May 26, 2021, at 11:12 AM, Marvin Johnston  wrote:
> Depending on when you need them, VCFMW is coming up in a few months. I have a 
> number of Osborne 1's as well as a couple of 386 machines set up with 
> Teledisk (I bought it *years* ago when it became available to listmembers), 
> imagedisk, and *maybe* Dave Dunfields IMD(?). As VCFMW gets closer and you 
> still need these floppies read, let me know and I'll put the machines in with 
> the stash of "junque" to unload :).
> 
> I *think* you are on the East coast, and it would surprise me if the RICM 
> doesn't have working Osbornes.
> 
> Marvin

Both the person with the floppies, and I are in Oregon.

I remember that Teledisk buy, thanks, you pointed me in the right direction, 
and I found backups of my DOS C:\ Drive on my Mac with Teledisk and 22Disk, it 
looks like they’re both unlicensed copies though.  That group purchase was way 
in March ’99, I managed to find the email from Bruce Lane, that was the HARD 
part, then I had to find the email attachment.  That was easy.  If Mail.app 
would do a better job of searching my email archives, it would have been easy 
to find the email itself. 

Zane

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Jonathan Stone via cctalk]

 

On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 03:38:43 PM PDT, Jonathan Stone via cctalk 
 wrote:

Please ignore point 2. Even the KN220 uses an M9715 in the slot between its 
CVAX I/O board and the power supply.
  

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Jonathan Stone via cctalk]

 

On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 02:35:32 PM PDT, Zane Healy via cctalk 
 wrote:


[]

two points: 

1. MS650-AA 8mb modules from a KA650 will work in a KA640. They won't work with 
a KA655 or a kA660 (or a KN210_. Those need the MS650-BA, or the 16MB MS650-BB, 
or the third-party 32MB modules. So if your KA640 is dead and you want to 
upgrade, you will likely need new memory, too. (You likely know this already.)

2. A few times over the last year, I've read an online service manual detailing 
how to turn a BA430 into a BA400X.
That manual describes pulling the CPU and inserting the DSSI"paddle board" in 
the first slot. That manual should be. useful in understanding your nonstandard 
chassis. However, if I recall correctly, I think you need to remove the "paddle 
board" and put the CPU into the first slot, for bus-termination reasons. The 
memory modules need to move one slot over to match. I don't know if that will 
help with your diag failures, but it seems worth trying.

  

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On May 25, 2021, at 3:50 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 1:32 PM Zane Healy  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> It turns out that the oddness was the CPU Board, and a 16MB Clearpoint RAM 
>> board.   What I thought was the CPU, is really the header panel over the RAM 
>> and TK70 controller.  There is also a M9715 between the CPU and the 
>> powersupply that I’d missed seeing.  The cables to get to the DSSI connector 
>> by the Powersupply are hanging out the front.  Basically it’s a cable going 
>> from the KA640 to a ribbon cable to a cab kit, then DSSI cable from that to 
>> the connector next to the power supply.
>> 
> 
> Sounds like somewhat of a mongrel system. An M7624 KA640 CPU would
> typically be found in a 12-slot BA213 as a MicroVAX 3400, or in a
> smaller 6-slot BA215 as a MicroVAX 3300.

Except for the DSSI cable strangeness, it’s a really nice chassis.  Though 
after a LOT of reading in the last 24 hours, may are right on it being a 
mongrel.  It also explains my confusion as to what it is. :-)

https://www.zanesphotography.com/Private/MicroVAX/n-96z8NZ/MicroVAX 


This is probably the best of the photo’s of the cabling.

https://www.zanesphotography.com/Private/MicroVAX/n-96z8NZ/MicroVAX/i-vFkfBQ2/A

> As far as I can tell a 12-slot B400X is essentially exactly the same
> thing as a BA430, where it is a BA430 when used as a VAX 4000-200 with
> an M7626 KA660 CPU, and a B400X when used as a Q-bus and storage
> expander.

Based on the BA430/BA440 manual, it looks like the main thing it’s missing from 
a BA430 is the SCP with the “Halt” and “Restart” buttons (it has the temp and 
DC indicators), along with the M7638-YA I/O Module.  I’m trying to find a 
description of what the M7638-YA module does.  The only place where I seem to 
find mention of it is in the BA430/BA440 manual.

From the manual:
Slot 0 - M9715-AA Interface Module
Slot 1 - M7638-YA I/O Module
Slot 2 - CPU Module
Slots 3 - 6 - Memory Modules

My system:
Slot 0 - M9715-AA Interface Module
Slot 1 - KA640
Slot 2 - MS650 (16MB Clearpoint)
Slot 3 - M7559
Slot 4 - M9047
Slot 5 - M9047
Slot 6 - 12 - Empty

This might be a bit odd, but I don’t think this is a problem, I did try pulling 
the M7559.  Really the diagnostics seem to be indicating to me that I have a 
bad KA640 board (specifically faults on at least a couple areas.

One question, do I need to worry about the batteries on the H3602-SA panel?  I 
can’t imagine that this would be causing any issue.

> An interesting thing about the BA430 backplane is that in addition to
> the M7626 KA660 CPU DSSI bus being present on the 50-pin connector, it
> is also present on the C/D connectors, and the BA430 backplane routes
> the DSSI bus on slot 1 C/D connectors to the DSSI storage device bays
> without the need for a DSSI cable.

I finally found that, in the “KA660 CPU System Maintenance” manual.  What’s 
interesting is that there is also a 50-pin header on the KA660, and I’m not yet 
clear on why. :-)

> If I remember correctly the DSSI bus is only present on the 50-pin
> connector of the M7624 KA640 CPU, not on the C/D connectors, so a DSSI
> cable is needed with that CPU.

As near as I can tell this is correct.  It also explains the strange cabling.

> The hidden M9715 board in slot 0 between the CPU slot 1 and the power
> supply provides termination power to the internal DSSI and SCSI buses
> of the BA430 / B400X backplane. It also has a connector which routes
> to the DSSI bus on the C/D connectors. In the BA430 nothing connects
> to the M9715 connector as the DSSI bus should be coming from the M7626
> KA660 CPU C/D connectors. In the B400X there should be an external
> bulkhead DSSI connector with a ribbon cable to the M9715 connector. In
> both the BA430 / B400X there should be another external DSSI connector
> to the left of slot 12, which is the other end of the DSSI bus.

The DSSI bus goes into a cable on the upper left, that then goes to a connector 
on the lower left, with the terminator.  I’ve photo’s of both.  I was 
interested to learn that there is also SCSI cabling in there.

> So it sounds like you have a B400X with the M9715 internally cabled to
> the external bulkhead DSSI connector as usual, and the M7624 KA640 CPU
> internally cabled to an external bulkhead DSSI connector, and then an
> external DSSI cable between those two bulkhead connectors. If that is
> basically how the DSSI things were cabled up, did you also have a DSSI
> terminator on the bulkhead connector to the left of slot 12? Without
> checking this myself with a M7624 KA640 CPU you probably get some sort
> of errors somewhere if the end of the DSSI bus is not terminated.

As near as I can tell, I have the B400X config for the M9715, and the 
terminator is in place.

> If you were to find an M7626 KA660 CPU you could do away with all of
> the DSSI cabling between the CPU and the M9715 (in addition to having
> a 

Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Wed, 26 May 2021, Marvin Johnston via cctalk wrote:
Depending on when you need them, VCFMW is coming up in a few months. I have a 
number of Osborne 1's as well as a couple of 386 machines set up with 
Teledisk (I bought it *years* ago when it became available to listmembers), 
imagedisk, and *maybe* Dave Dunfields IMD(?). As VCFMW gets closer and you 
still need these floppies read, let me know and I'll put the machines in with 
the stash of "junque" to unload :).


I *think* you are on the East coast, and it would surprise me if the RICM 
doesn't have working Osbornes.


Yes, a working Osborne, with a serial port, XMODEM or equivalent, a null 
modem cable, and a working "current" computer with serial port and XMODEM 
equivalent should do just fine.


Since the task is to copy the FILES, (NOT image the disks), then Teledisk, 
Imagedisk, etc. might be useful as an intermediate step, but will not do 
what is needed.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?

[Marvin Johnston via cctalk]

Depending on when you need them, VCFMW is coming up in a few months. I 
have a number of Osborne 1's as well as a couple of 386 machines set up 
with Teledisk (I bought it *years* ago when it became available to 
listmembers), imagedisk, and *maybe* Dave Dunfields IMD(?). As VCFMW 
gets closer and you still need these floppies read, let me know and I'll 
put the machines in with the stash of "junque" to unload :).


I *think* you are on the East coast, and it would surprise me if the 
RICM doesn't have working Osbornes.


Marvin



Message: 3
Date: Tue, 25 May 2021 10:37:03 -0700
From: Zane Healy 
To: Fred Cisin , "General Discussion: On-Topic and
Off-Topic Posts" 
Subject: Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
Message-ID: <13b8e14a-bcad-4a5b-b81a-7e6e6f373...@avanthar.com>
Content-Type: text/plain;   charset=utf-8

Yes, we need to be able to access the files.

I?m going to see if my old 486 will still boot up, I know I used to use it with 
imaging RX50 floppies.  I?m not an x86 collector, so have a pretty limited 
selection of PC Hardware.  I?m on my Sabbatical right now, so this request came 
in at a good time.  Though first I have to finish up on some VAX and Alpha 
systems I?m working on, so as to free up space.  That or finish a cleaning 
project in my office. :-) The cleaning project is needed to finish the 
VAX/Alpha projects?

Is there any chances of reading these with Commodore 128 running CP/M, or a 
Kaypro 2?  The Kaypro is definitely on my ?project list?, it worked last time I 
played with it.  I *might* have a DEC Rainbow, or I might have given it away.  
If I do, I have no idea of its condition.  An Apple //e would be another old 
system with 5.25? drives, but seems more unlikely.  I might still have an old 
Kaypro PC, though it hasn?t been used since ?94 (and there is a good chance it 
went to LCM).

My focus is DEC and Commodore, though I do have a lot of Apple // gear.

Zane