Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400
On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 09:14:16 PM PDT, Zane Healy wrote: [[ reference to service manual for converting BA400 to BA400X ]] >Do you happen to know what Manual this is? I’ve spent a lot of the last >couple days reading up on the BA430/B400X, and the :KA640/KA660. I looked for it before posting, and again today. I can't find it. If I do, I'll certainly let you know.
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
On 5/27/21 4:17 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > > I modified a PC parallel port, and played around with it. My goal, > XenoComm Parallel, was NOT to use it with software on both machines. I > had run into a few machines that had a Centonics port, but not RS232, > and disk formats that the PC FDC couldn't handle. (such as TRS80 mdel 1, > Sirius 9000, Vector Graphics, etc.), I wanted to connect their parallel > printer port to a PC, tell the alien machine to PRINT its word processor > files, and have the PC emulate a printer to the alien machine, but > capture and save what the alien machine "printed". >From about 1988 to 2000 I marketed a very successful product to the law enforcement community. One of the facets of it was the ability to transfer data from a subject machine via serial or parallel connection. We could do either nibble-or-8 bit transfers, but nibble turned out to be the most used. Lots of error checking and waiting for lines to settle, but, like laplink and interserver, it could be done quite well and it was faster than serial. I seem to recall that the Victor 9000 had a bidirectional parallel interface that could also double as a GPIB interface. Sometime around 1987, I wrote a parallel port TSR that could drive slow-speed GPIB devices. I wrote it out of necessity--I needed to make a presentation that involved color charts and the only plotter I could borrow was the HP 6-pen plotter with GPIB interface. At the time, I was using SuperCalc, which supported the parallel version of the plotter, so I wrote a TSR to hook the INT 17H BIOS interrupt and directed the messages through a printer port connected as a GPIB interface. That one worked with the legacy PC printer port. Later, I modified the port to be bidirectional and used it with an HP GPIB voltmeter. I know the thing was discussed briefly in Nuts'n'Volts; it may still be in the SIMTEL20 archive. Years ago and far away... --Chuck
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
On Thu, 27 May 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: I'd been cutting floppy controller code since about 1975; the weirdness of the IBM PC design really made for some head-scratching. I did some FORTRAN since 1967, but until the TRS80, I couldn't own a computer, and hardly ever got a chance to touch them, and was strictly limited on what I was even allowed to do. So, I never talked to the FDC until about 1980. (when I found Bill Barden's paper about talking to the TRS80 FDC) Sometime in the 5150/5160 days, I published instructions on how to modify a PC floppy controller that used the 765 with a WD926 data separator. It was quite simple--for some unknown reason, both of the clock rate select lines were hard-wired. Getting FM support was mostly a matter of lifting one of those lines and running a jumper to the MFM/FM output on the 765. But then IBM and clones did the same sort of thing with the parallel port adapter. Changing one to bidirectional (and curiously PS/2-compatible) was mostly a matter of lifting the output enable line on an IC and tying it an unused bit in the control port. Sometimes I wonder if IBM did this sort of stuff intentionally. I suspect that it was intentional, but through ignorance. "Should we have FM?" "Should we make the printer port bi-directional?" To which some IBM manager with little or no technical expertise asked, "Do we NEED to?" and, assuming that it would cost, rejected the "UNNECESSARY expenditures" for the extra capabilities. I modified a PC parallel port, and played around with it. My goal, XenoComm Parallel, was NOT to use it with software on both machines. I had run into a few machines that had a Centonics port, but not RS232, and disk formats that the PC FDC couldn't handle. (such as TRS80 mdel 1, Sirius 9000, Vector Graphics, etc.), I wanted to connect their parallel printer port to a PC, tell the alien machine to PRINT its word processor files, and have the PC emulate a printer to the alien machine, but capture and save what the alien machine "printed". Unfortunately, I found that many of them had a very narrow, below spec strobe. I wasn't able to make a tight enough loop on minimal PCs, so I had to add hardware to extend the pulse. I had hoped that eventually, people would have the bi-directional ports, and that all that I would have to supply was software and a simple dumb cable, with appropriate pin swapping FROM Centronics female to DB25 male, that as a dongle on the PC would let any Centronics capable computer plug to the PC instead of a printer. And, at Comdex, I found it extremely difficult to explain the concept to people who either had NO need for data from such machines, or refused to understand that existing PC TO PC parallel port transfer programs used special software, not just a printer driver, on the sending machine. Since Laplink, etc. PUT their own software onto the other PC, why couldn't they use Laplink to PUT the special software onto the Vector Graphic? So, I concluded that I did not have a market for making the PC emulate a printer for getting alien machines to PRINT to the PC, for disk formats that the PC could not handle. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 2:35 PM Zane Healy wrote: > > Except for the DSSI cable strangeness, it’s a really nice chassis. Though > after a LOT of reading in the last 24 hours, may are right on it being a > mongrel. It also explains my confusion as to what it is. :-) > > https://www.zanesphotography.com/Private/MicroVAX/n-96z8NZ/MicroVAX > > This is probably the best of the photo’s of the cabling. > > https://www.zanesphotography.com/Private/MicroVAX/n-96z8NZ/MicroVAX/i-vFkfBQ2/A The 50-pin round cable that plugs into the M7624 KA640 CPU on one end and into the flat 50-pin ribbon cable on the other end, and the 50-pin ribbon cable with the two IDC connectors in the middle and the DSSI bulkhead connector on the other end might be the internal DSSI cabling removed from a BA215 enclosure. Maybe what happened is that someone scraped a MicroVAX 3300 and pulled the M7624 KA640 CPU and internal DSSI cabling out of the BA215 enclosure, and transplanted those into the B400X enclosure, plus added the external DSSI cable to connect the transplanted BA215 enclosure DSSI cabling up to the B400X M9715 DSSI bulkhead connector. Maybe someone here has a spare M7626 KA660 CPU that they could give you a good deal on to replace your possibly dead M7624 KA640 CPU, which would clean up the DSSI cabling at the same time. I don't think I have more M7626 KA660 CPUs on hand myself than BA215/BA430 enclosures to use with them.
Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400
On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 3:38 PM Jonathan Stone wrote: > > two points: > > 1. MS650-AA 8mb modules from a KA650 will work in a KA640. They won't work > with a KA655 or a kA660 (or a KN210_. Those need the MS650-BA, or the 16MB > MS650-BB, or the third-party 32MB modules. So if your KA640 is dead and you > want to upgrade, you will likely need new memory, too. (You likely know this > already.) > I've been wrong about that for several years. I have always assumed that an M7621 MS650-AA 8MB memory board was compatible with all of the M7620 KA650, M7624 KA640, M7625 KA655, and M7626 KA660 CPUs. I didn't realize until now that an M7621 MS650-AA 8MB memory board is only compatible with the M7620 KA650 and M7624 KA640 CPUs, and the M7625 KA655 and M7626 KA660 CPUs are only compatible with the M7622 MS650-BA 16MB memory board (or the less common MS650-BB 8MB version of the M7622). Unless I am also wrong about this, the M7622 MS650-B memory boards are compatible with all of the M7620 KA650, M7624 KA640, M7625 KA655, and M7626 KA660 CPUs. KA655 CPU System Maintenance, Order Number EK-306AA-MG-001 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/655/EK-306A-MG-001_655Mnt_Mar89.pdf Page 1-4 (Page 15 of the PDF) "NOTE: The KA655 CPU supports only the MS650-BA (16 Mbyte) memory module. The MS650-AA (8 Mbyte) is not supported because of its slower access speed." KA660 CPU System Maintenance, Order Number EK-398AA-MM-001 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/4000/EK-398AA-MM-001_KA660_CPU_System_Maintenance_Dec90.pdf Page 1-10 (Page 20 of the PDF) "1.4 MS650-Bn Memory Modules The MS650-BA and MS650-BB memory modules are quad-height, Q22-bus modules. Timing of the MS650-BA (16 MBytes) and MS650-BB (8 MBytes) modules is dependent upon the KA660 clock speed and CMCTL. The MS650-AA memory module may not be used with the KA660 system CPU."
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
On 5/27/21 12:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > In 1981, when the Osborne 1 came out, I got some sample disks from it. > So, other than TRS80s, which I had, those were also the first samples > that I worked with. I manually, a sector at a time, copied some files > from those Osborne 1 disks using Superzap on TRS80. THAT was the > preliminary success that convinced me that it could be done, and gave > the the impetus and confidence to write XenoCopy, in the next few years, > after the 5150 came out. (5150 came out August 11, 1981, but it took me > 5 months to get one) BUT, the 5150 couldn't do FM Single Density, so > the PC-DOS version of XenoCopy didn't get an Osborne format until the > MFM Double Density upgrade for the Osborne 1 came out. I'd been cutting floppy controller code since about 1975; the weirdness of the IBM PC design really made for some head-scratching. Sometime in the 5150/5160 days, I published instructions on how to modify a PC floppy controller that used the 765 with a WD926 data separator. It was quite simple--for some unknown reason, both of the clock rate select lines were hard-wired. Getting FM support was mostly a matter of lifting one of those lines and running a jumper to the MFM/FM output on the 765. But then IBM and clones did the same sort of thing with the parallel port adapter. Changing one to bidirectional (and curiously PS/2-compatible) was mostly a matter of lifting the output enable line on an IC and tying it an unused bit in the control port. Sometimes I wonder if IBM did this sort of stuff intentionally. --Chuck
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
On Thu, 27 May 2021, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: Viruses? On CP/M-80 disks? When Don and I were exchanging samples, I was unaware of such stuff. Someone want to enlighten me on Z80/8080 viruses on CP/M floppies? (FWIW, I do differentiate "virus" from "malware") There were also some MS-DOS disks, and MS-DSOS files. There could even have been some viral MS-DOS boot sector images that wrote to first sector of some non-MS-DOS disks. And, there were probably also some false hits. Since I'm in Oregon, I'd be happy to extract the files from your images, if you can get them to image form. And, now you have a perfect solution! Chuck can do it, better than anybody else. As I said, Teledisk and Imagedisk won't do the file transfers, but CAN be an intermediate step, in this case making it possible to get images of the disks to Chuck for him to do the transfers. My recollection was that back in 1986, when I wrote 22Disk, O1 floppies were among the first samples I received (after A1 format, anyway. In 1981, when the Osborne 1 came out, I got some sample disks from it. So, other than TRS80s, which I had, those were also the first samples that I worked with. I manually, a sector at a time, copied some files from those Osborne 1 disks using Superzap on TRS80. THAT was the preliminary success that convinced me that it could be done, and gave the the impetus and confidence to write XenoCopy, in the next few years, after the 5150 came out. (5150 came out August 11, 1981, but it took me 5 months to get one) BUT, the 5150 couldn't do FM Single Density, so the PC-DOS version of XenoCopy didn't get an Osborne format until the MFM Double Density upgrade for the Osborne 1 came out. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
On Thu, May 27, 2021 at 1:40 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/27/21 9:51 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > > On 5/27/21 8:20 AM, John Herron wrote: > >> We're the viruses identified and cleaned from the archive? > > > > no > > Viruses? On CP/M-80 disks? When Don and I were exchanging samples, I > was unaware of such stuff. > > Someone want to enlighten me on Z80/8080 viruses on CP/M floppies? > > (FWIW, I do differentiate "virus" from "malware") > IIRC there were IBM PC format files in there too, and some of them had viruses. I scanned the "aadrvark tape backups" archive in 2014 and found a few. The files were from a C and a D drive created in 1995, 96, 97. I thought the archive was no longer "lost" BIll
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
On 5/27/21 9:51 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: > On 5/27/21 8:20 AM, John Herron wrote: >> We're the viruses identified and cleaned from the archive? > > no Viruses? On CP/M-80 disks? When Don and I were exchanging samples, I was unaware of such stuff. Someone want to enlighten me on Z80/8080 viruses on CP/M floppies? (FWIW, I do differentiate "virus" from "malware") Since I'm in Oregon, I'd be happy to extract the files from your images, if you can get them to image form. My recollection was that back in 1986, when I wrote 22Disk, O1 floppies were among the first samples I received (after A1 format, anyway. --Chuck
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
On 5/27/21 8:20 AM, John Herron wrote: We're the viruses identified and cleaned from the archive? no
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
We're the viruses identified and cleaned from the archive? I recall a few disks were infected. On Thu, May 27, 2021, 9:57 AM Zane Healy via cctalk wrote: > On May 27, 2021, at 2:31 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > > > On 5/26/21 11:22 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > > > >> I thought Don’s archive had been lost, when was it recovered? > > Don's daughter donated some of the contents of his storage locker in > 2013 to CHM > > I read several hundred of his floppies, and his pc hard disk. > > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903 > > > >
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
On May 27, 2021, at 2:31 AM, Al Kossow wrote: > > On 5/26/21 11:22 PM, Zane Healy wrote: > >> I thought Don’s archive had been lost, when was it recovered? > Don's daughter donated some of the contents of his storage locker in 2013 to > CHM > I read several hundred of his floppies, and his pc hard disk. > https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903 That’s awesome! The last I heard, it looked like this would likely end up in the trash. The timing explains why I wasn’t aware of this, as that is about the time that work took over my life, to the point that even my photography has suffered. For me, Covid-19 has enabled me to do long overdue maintenance on some of my Classic Computer collection. Zane
Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 80, Issue 24
On Wed, 2021-05-26 at 12:00 -0500, cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org wrote: > If you were to find an M7626 KA660 CPU you could do away with all of > the DSSI cabling between the CPU and the M9715 (in addition to having > a CPU that is around twice as fast). KA660/BA430 makes for a nice MicroVAX, had one for a while. You can even route the SCSI on the backplane as well, and the sleds pick up whichever you need. Too bad DSSI stuff either isn't more common or DEC found a way to route full cluster over SCSI, that was neat too (and faster than LAVAC for KA660). I seem to recall a highly opinionated VAX/BSD partisan also bestowed on it the rare (in his system) title of "real VAX" In the completely unrelated category my state has signs out asking us to "VAX up" which has me itching to get my VAXes out again. Sadly HP shut down the hobbyist license issuing before they got to my request :(.
Re: How to read Osborne 1 Floppies?
On 5/26/21 11:22 PM, Zane Healy wrote: I thought Don’s archive had been lost, when was it recovered? Don's daughter donated some of the contents of his storage locker in 2013 to CHM I read several hundred of his floppies, and his pc hard disk. https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102703903
