Re: Plessy core memory
Sigh, shouldn't try to type when I'm this tired. Female 9-pin (to plug into the BA11-D) to male 15-pin (for the DD11-C/D to plug into). *nod* I'll put the system aside again for awhile. But if I come across a DD11-C or D I'll go back to work on it. In the "Go to Unibus hell" category I DO have a DA11-F Unibus window. It has the 9 pin power plug and could go in this box. More horrifying, it can map a portion of one Unibus onto another so in theory I could plug it in, wire into my pdp11/24's Unibus, and map the memory from there onto the 11/05, then boot RT11. Hm. I wonder if I could then map over the I/O page and access the RL11 on the 24. And for real fun what would happen if I enabled the KT24 Unibus memory map. C
Re: Plessy core memory
> an adapter cable to go from a 9-pin male (shell; female pins) to a > 15-pin female (shell; male pins) Sigh, shouldn't try to type when I'm this tired. Female 9-pin (to plug into the BA11-D) to male 15-pin (for the DD11-C/D to plug into). Noel
Re: Plessy core memory
> From: Chris Zach > the DD11-B is a MUD backplane No, it's SPC; other sources, e.g. http://www.chdickman.com/pdp11/Notes/DD11.shtml agree. So if you have a DD11-B, you must have a BA11-D, with the 9-pin power plugs. The best thing to do is get a DD11-C or -D, and build an adapter cable to go from a 9-pin male (shell; female pins) to a 15-pin female (shell; male pins), so you don't have to mess with the harness. Part numbers here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/DEC_power_distribution_connectors Then you can plug in any memory you've got the right voltages for; the MS11-E takes + and -15V (in addition to +5V, of course). Noel
Re: Plessy core memory
On 1/9/22 4:04 PM, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: I'm working on my pdp11/10 getting it back together. One problem I think I have is that the secondary memory (a Plessy 700101-100) may be shorting the -15 line for some reason. Working on it, but does anyone have a manual or anything like that for this kind of memory board? Check for Tantalum capacitors on the -15V. These often fail after a period of not being powered and then having power applied suddenly. Jon
Re: Plessy core memory
Hm. So the DD11-B backplane does not appear to be SPC/MUD. Instead it seems to handle 4 SPC devices along with a DF11 "communication line adapter" in the middle AB slots. Oi. That brings up an interesting question: How did this system ever work in the first place? I know I ran it with two of these Plessy cards and a RX01 controller but now that I look at it that would be impossible as both were hex cards and both could never fit in a 4 slot backplane with enough space for a quad spc Maybe it did only run with 16kw of memory. Or maybe I had a 9 slot backplane in there, but I don't remember getting rid of one. Hm.
Re: Plessy core memory
If you have a 10-1/2" box, you can mount a MUD backplane - but you might still have an issue because the older BA11-D boxes use the old 9-pin power connectors, and the MUD backplanes (DD11-C, -D, etc) all use the newer 15-pin ones. There we go. I have an 11/05 in a BA11-D box with a DD11-B expansion backplane with a 9 pin power plug sourcing +15, -15, +5. So is the DD11-B a MUD backplane? If not, what is it? The later /05's, /40's and /45's were the first ones to provide +20V, for the then-new MM11-U. On machines which took H744 'brick's, the _later_ harnesses could take a H754 +20V, -5V regulator 'brick'. Alternatively, _some_ BA11-L's (used for the /04 and /34) had the right version of H777: Hm. So I could get the power for the +20/-5 by replacing the 744 with a 754 and wiring up my own harness. However that would have two problems: 1) I'd be low on +5 for things like an RL11 controller. 2) I don't know if the DD11-B uses the 20 volt and -5 volt lines for something else. This is so much fun! C
Re: Plessy core memory
> From: Chris Zach > the secondary memory (a Plessy 700101-100) may be shorting the -15 line > for some reason. Working on it, but does anyone have a manual or > anything like that for this kind of memory board? I've got a Plessey core memory manual somewhere, but I can't find it, so I don't know if it's the one you are looking for. I got it from Paul Birkel; it was a duplicate, and he scanned his and sent the scan off, but I don't think it made it online. > Alternately, what kind of Unibus 16k memory board exists to get a 11/10 > from 16kw to 32kw of memory? It all depends on what kind of -11/10 you have. If yours is in a 5-1/4" box, you can't plug a DEC memory card into the SPC slots that some of the CPU-holding backplane versions have because DEC memories (other than the ones like the MM11-L and -U, which are multi-board core systems that require custom backplanes) all require MUD slots, not SPC. All of the CPU backplanes on that machine are for a _specific_ kind of core memory (MM11-L or MM11-U), see here: https://gunkies.org/wiki/PDP-11/05 There are I think some third-party memories which can be used (Dataram, maybe?) but I don't have time to go into them. If you have a 10-1/2" box, you can mount a MUD backplane - but you might still have an issue because the older BA11-D boxes use the old 9-pin power connectors, and the MUD backplanes (DD11-C, -D, etc) all use the newer 15-pin ones. (Again, there are some oddball ones, and again, I don't have time to go into them.) If you're lucky enough to have one of the ones that will take a MUD backplane, an MS11-E/F/H/J: https://gunkies.org/wiki/MS11_32KB_MOS_memory would be an option. > On a related note, where did +20 come from for Unibus and which systems > even supported it? Was it an 11/45,11/70 thing? The later /05's, /40's and /45's were the first ones to provide +20V, for the then-new MM11-U. On machines which took H744 'brick's, the _later_ harnesses could take a H754 +20V, -5V regulator 'brick'. Alternatively, _some_ BA11-L's (used for the /04 and /34) had the right version of H777: https://gunkies.org/wiki/H777_Power_Supply to provide +20V. Noel
Re: Plessy core memory
Worst case I guess I could put a broken MS11-PL board in and set it for 16k start. It's got bad memory chips on it but I think the first 16k were good. And as a bonus it can work in both a +15 *AND* a +12 volt Unibus (yeah, the 11/24 used +12 on the +15 lines. No idea what was wrong with DEC) Oh yeah, the first 4 slots in an 11/24 had A/B as NOT MUD but were EUB (extended Unibus with 22 bit addressing for the KT24 MMU). The CDEF slots were SPC, so you had to have a 7273 in each of them or a special memory card. Don't know what would happen if you plugged a RL11 or other hex height card into one of those slots, probably blow everything up. I think I prefer Q Bus. Although they managed to make that a mess with the Q/CD slots as well C On 1/9/2022 8:00 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: I'm sorry, on the memories, I went to look at my old notebook form that era, but it seems some pages have fallen out over time :-) I think a friend has an 11/05 or 10, I will ask him for its configuration and see if that will help. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: tilbury2591nw.john...@ieee.org On 2022-01-09 19:57, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Probably. It's a 1973 version, the DD11-B is a MUD backplane, but it seems to only have power plugs for +5,+15,-15. Looking at the MUD specs I see there are backplane pins assigned for +20 and -5 so I might be able to cobble something together. That's one of the fun things about Unibus: There were so many different types that there was no guarantee that anything would work in anything. I know this one worked with an RX11 because that's what I used 30 years ago. Would it work with an RX21? Maybe. Maybe not. Note: I did check the DD11 and sure enough all of the DMA grant wires are factory jumpered. I did remove the wire from one of them so I can use either a RL11 or an RX21 but in the meantime I have a G7273 in there along with the knucklebusters in the other slots) Getting this MM11-DP to work might take a fair bit of thought. I'm guessing that the DD11-F is significantly different from the DD11-B? And the big question: What memories (if any) will work in a DD11-B equipped pdp11/10? C On 1/9/2022 5:48 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: I would assume that your 11/10 has the suffix -NC. There were two versions, the -NC used -15V four wire memory, and the later -SC used +20V three-wire memory. The +20V was provided by a MUD slot (Modified Unibus Device) and there was usually a big red sticker in it warning to not plug a module in that was not wired for it. I believe it was standard in all models after the second version of the 11/05 -/10 I once tried to fix an 11/34 off-contract that somebody had done exactly that to- I gave up when I found that the +20V had been routed to some unobtainable ROMs on the CPU board. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: tilbury2591nw.john...@ieee.org On 2022-01-09 17:04, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: I'm working on my pdp11/10 getting it back together. One problem I think I have is that the secondary memory (a Plessy 700101-100) may be shorting the -15 line for some reason. Working on it, but does anyone have a manual or anything like that for this kind of memory board? Alternately, what kind of Unibus 16k memory board exists to get a 11/10 from 16kw to 32kw of memory? Apparently I can't use a MM11-B as it requires +20 and -5, both of which are not provided by the power supply or sourced on a DD11-B backplane module. The 11/10 has +15, -15, and +5. On a related note, where did +20 come from for Unibus and which systems even supported it? Was it an 11/45,11/70 thing? Thoughts? C (Yes, I could build a regulator to take the 30 volts between +15 and -15 and create an independent 20 volts. Maybe. Likewise I could generate -5 from the -15 and a 7815 regulator. Maybe.)
Re: Plessy core memory
I'm sorry, on the memories, I went to look at my old notebook form that era, but it seems some pages have fallen out over time :-) I think a friend has an 11/05 or 10, I will ask him for its configuration and see if that will help. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: tilbury2591nw.john...@ieee.org On 2022-01-09 19:57, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: Probably. It's a 1973 version, the DD11-B is a MUD backplane, but it seems to only have power plugs for +5,+15,-15. Looking at the MUD specs I see there are backplane pins assigned for +20 and -5 so I might be able to cobble something together. That's one of the fun things about Unibus: There were so many different types that there was no guarantee that anything would work in anything. I know this one worked with an RX11 because that's what I used 30 years ago. Would it work with an RX21? Maybe. Maybe not. Note: I did check the DD11 and sure enough all of the DMA grant wires are factory jumpered. I did remove the wire from one of them so I can use either a RL11 or an RX21 but in the meantime I have a G7273 in there along with the knucklebusters in the other slots) Getting this MM11-DP to work might take a fair bit of thought. I'm guessing that the DD11-F is significantly different from the DD11-B? And the big question: What memories (if any) will work in a DD11-B equipped pdp11/10? C On 1/9/2022 5:48 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: I would assume that your 11/10 has the suffix -NC. There were two versions, the -NC used -15V four wire memory, and the later -SC used +20V three-wire memory. The +20V was provided by a MUD slot (Modified Unibus Device) and there was usually a big red sticker in it warning to not plug a module in that was not wired for it. I believe it was standard in all models after the second version of the 11/05 -/10 I once tried to fix an 11/34 off-contract that somebody had done exactly that to- I gave up when I found that the +20V had been routed to some unobtainable ROMs on the CPU board. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: tilbury2591nw.john...@ieee.org On 2022-01-09 17:04, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: I'm working on my pdp11/10 getting it back together. One problem I think I have is that the secondary memory (a Plessy 700101-100) may be shorting the -15 line for some reason. Working on it, but does anyone have a manual or anything like that for this kind of memory board? Alternately, what kind of Unibus 16k memory board exists to get a 11/10 from 16kw to 32kw of memory? Apparently I can't use a MM11-B as it requires +20 and -5, both of which are not provided by the power supply or sourced on a DD11-B backplane module. The 11/10 has +15, -15, and +5. On a related note, where did +20 come from for Unibus and which systems even supported it? Was it an 11/45,11/70 thing? Thoughts? C (Yes, I could build a regulator to take the 30 volts between +15 and -15 and create an independent 20 volts. Maybe. Likewise I could generate -5 from the -15 and a 7815 regulator. Maybe.)
Re: Plessy core memory
Probably. It's a 1973 version, the DD11-B is a MUD backplane, but it seems to only have power plugs for +5,+15,-15. Looking at the MUD specs I see there are backplane pins assigned for +20 and -5 so I might be able to cobble something together. That's one of the fun things about Unibus: There were so many different types that there was no guarantee that anything would work in anything. I know this one worked with an RX11 because that's what I used 30 years ago. Would it work with an RX21? Maybe. Maybe not. Note: I did check the DD11 and sure enough all of the DMA grant wires are factory jumpered. I did remove the wire from one of them so I can use either a RL11 or an RX21 but in the meantime I have a G7273 in there along with the knucklebusters in the other slots) Getting this MM11-DP to work might take a fair bit of thought. I'm guessing that the DD11-F is significantly different from the DD11-B? And the big question: What memories (if any) will work in a DD11-B equipped pdp11/10? C On 1/9/2022 5:48 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk wrote: I would assume that your 11/10 has the suffix -NC. There were two versions, the -NC used -15V four wire memory, and the later -SC used +20V three-wire memory. The +20V was provided by a MUD slot (Modified Unibus Device) and there was usually a big red sticker in it warning to not plug a module in that was not wired for it. I believe it was standard in all models after the second version of the 11/05 -/10 I once tried to fix an 11/34 off-contract that somebody had done exactly that to- I gave up when I found that the +20V had been routed to some unobtainable ROMs on the CPU board. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: tilbury2591nw.john...@ieee.org On 2022-01-09 17:04, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: I'm working on my pdp11/10 getting it back together. One problem I think I have is that the secondary memory (a Plessy 700101-100) may be shorting the -15 line for some reason. Working on it, but does anyone have a manual or anything like that for this kind of memory board? Alternately, what kind of Unibus 16k memory board exists to get a 11/10 from 16kw to 32kw of memory? Apparently I can't use a MM11-B as it requires +20 and -5, both of which are not provided by the power supply or sourced on a DD11-B backplane module. The 11/10 has +15, -15, and +5. On a related note, where did +20 come from for Unibus and which systems even supported it? Was it an 11/45,11/70 thing? Thoughts? C (Yes, I could build a regulator to take the 30 volts between +15 and -15 and create an independent 20 volts. Maybe. Likewise I could generate -5 from the -15 and a 7815 regulator. Maybe.)
Re: Plessy core memory
I would assume that your 11/10 has the suffix -NC. There were two versions, the -NC used -15V four wire memory, and the later -SC used +20V three-wire memory. The +20V was provided by a MUD slot (Modified Unibus Device) and there was usually a big red sticker in it warning to not plug a module in that was not wired for it. I believe it was standard in all models after the second version of the 11/05 -/10 I once tried to fix an 11/34 off-contract that somebody had done exactly that to- I gave up when I found that the +20V had been routed to some unobtainable ROMs on the CPU board. cheers, Nigel Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: tilbury2591nw.john...@ieee.org On 2022-01-09 17:04, Chris Zach via cctalk wrote: I'm working on my pdp11/10 getting it back together. One problem I think I have is that the secondary memory (a Plessy 700101-100) may be shorting the -15 line for some reason. Working on it, but does anyone have a manual or anything like that for this kind of memory board? Alternately, what kind of Unibus 16k memory board exists to get a 11/10 from 16kw to 32kw of memory? Apparently I can't use a MM11-B as it requires +20 and -5, both of which are not provided by the power supply or sourced on a DD11-B backplane module. The 11/10 has +15, -15, and +5. On a related note, where did +20 come from for Unibus and which systems even supported it? Was it an 11/45,11/70 thing? Thoughts? C (Yes, I could build a regulator to take the 30 volts between +15 and -15 and create an independent 20 volts. Maybe. Likewise I could generate -5 from the -15 and a 7815 regulator. Maybe.)
Plessy core memory
I'm working on my pdp11/10 getting it back together. One problem I think I have is that the secondary memory (a Plessy 700101-100) may be shorting the -15 line for some reason. Working on it, but does anyone have a manual or anything like that for this kind of memory board? Alternately, what kind of Unibus 16k memory board exists to get a 11/10 from 16kw to 32kw of memory? Apparently I can't use a MM11-B as it requires +20 and -5, both of which are not provided by the power supply or sourced on a DD11-B backplane module. The 11/10 has +15, -15, and +5. On a related note, where did +20 come from for Unibus and which systems even supported it? Was it an 11/45,11/70 thing? Thoughts? C (Yes, I could build a regulator to take the 30 volts between +15 and -15 and create an independent 20 volts. Maybe. Likewise I could generate -5 from the -15 and a 7815 regulator. Maybe.)
Re: VAX 780 on eBay
On Sun, Jan 9, 2022 at 2:56 AM Noel Chiappa via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > This: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/275084268137 > > ... > > Anyway I fully expect it to go ... for a _lot_ more than the opening > price. > > Much to my surprise, it didn't sell at all (although a number of other > lots, > likely from this machine, did.) > > I'm rather puzzled that an -11/70 will sell for north of $10K, while a /780 > can't fetch $5K. I can only guess that PDP-11'S are seen as more important > in > the collector world (even though the BSD work, which had such a huge > impact on > UNIX, which has now - in the form of Linux - taken over the world, was > centered on the VAX). > As others have mentioned, power is one concern, but my guess is this: No blinkenlights. It's not exciting looking. This tracks for PDP-11s (and 8's!) as well. No one pays big money for 11/04, 11/34, 11/44 or LSI-11 systems (though prices are creeping up like everything else) but 11/05, 11/40, 11/70, etc. sell for huge amounts every time. There's an 11/70 front panel at over $500 on eBay right now with two days left, it'll probably sell for $2500. - Josh > > Noel > >
Re: VAX 780 on eBay
On 1/9/22 8:17 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote: I'm rather puzzled that an -11/70 will sell for north of $10K, while a /780 can't fetch $5K. I can only guess that PDP-11'S are seen as more important in the collector world (even though the BSD work, which had such a huge impact on UNIX, which has now - in the form of Linux - taken over the world, was centered on the VAX). Noel, maybethis is also related to the bare size of an 11/780 (any peripherals excluded) Right, you can run an 11/70 from a regular wall socket, but the /780 needs 3-phase, and consumes a LOT more power. I think you could squeeze a usable 11/70 into a single rack with modern peripherals, but No WAY for a /780. But, yes, I'm also surprised it didn't sell. Jon
Re: The Portable C Compiler (pcc)
> From: Tom Hunter > The original "Portable C Compiler" by S. C. Johnson (also known as > "pcc") had functional support for the Data General Nova. Could somebody > please point me to this original implementation? > ... > I am looking for the original implementation - not any recent work. Of PCC, or the Nova version? The _oriinal_ PCC, released to the world in V7, is there: https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7/usr/src/cmd/mip https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7/usr/src/cmd/pcc https://minnie.tuhs.org/cgi-bin/utree.pl?file=V7/usr/doc/porttour That one is dated 1979. I have a slightly later version, from 1982 or so, which is the 68K one done at MIT. Not sure if either of those is any use to you, though. Noel
Re: The Portable C Compiler (pcc)
> On 01/09/2022 9:10 AM Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote: > > > The original "Portable C Compiler" by S. C. Johnson (also known as "pcc") > had functional support for the Data General Nova. Could somebody please > point me to this original implementation? > > There is a modern C99 version of this compiler maintained by Anders > Magnusson at: http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/ > > Unfortunately in this version the Nova architecture is no longer supported > and won't build correctly although associated files are still in the source > hierarchy. > > I am looking for the original implementation - not any recent work. > > Thanks > Tom Have you contacted the author and asked him? I suspect he has the original that he worked from. Will
The Portable C Compiler (pcc)
The original "Portable C Compiler" by S. C. Johnson (also known as "pcc") had functional support for the Data General Nova. Could somebody please point me to this original implementation? There is a modern C99 version of this compiler maintained by Anders Magnusson at: http://pcc.ludd.ltu.se/ Unfortunately in this version the Nova architecture is no longer supported and won't build correctly although associated files are still in the source hierarchy. I am looking for the original implementation - not any recent work. Thanks Tom
Re: VAX 780 on eBay
>I'm rather puzzled that an -11/70 will sell for north of $10K, while a /780 >can't fetch $5K. I can only guess that PDP-11'S are seen as more important in >the collector world (even though the BSD work, which had such a huge impact on >UNIX, which has now - in the form of Linux - taken over the world, was >centered on the VAX). Noel, maybethis is also related to the bare size of an 11/780 (any peripherals excluded) compared to a 11/70 which can be handled a bit easier when it comes to moving and storing it somewhere. And then we had these recent discussions about powering an 11/780 for those who would actually like to do something with it rather than just storing it. I think that an 11/70 is more convenient in practical terms for a lot of enthousiasts out there. Cheers, Piere
Re: VAX 780 on eBay
> This: > https://www.ebay.com/itm/275084268137 > ... > Anyway I fully expect it to go ... for a _lot_ more than the opening price. Much to my surprise, it didn't sell at all (although a number of other lots, likely from this machine, did.) I'm rather puzzled that an -11/70 will sell for north of $10K, while a /780 can't fetch $5K. I can only guess that PDP-11'S are seen as more important in the collector world (even though the BSD work, which had such a huge impact on UNIX, which has now - in the form of Linux - taken over the world, was centered on the VAX). Noel
