Re: Cross-tools

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Jun 28, 2022, at 8:43 PM, Warner Losh  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 6:08 PM Paul Koning  > wrote:
> 
> 
> > On Jun 28, 2022, at 5:25 PM, Warner Losh  > > wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 3:03 PM Paul Koning via cctalk 
> > mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org>> wrote:
> > I'm looking for cross tools for PDP11.  I know of macro11, and have been 
> > feeding Olaf assorted fixes.
> > 
> > I built my own LIBR (in Python, that was easy enough).
> > 
> > So now I'm looking for LINK and TKB.  I found this: 
> > https://github.com/nzeemin/pclink11  
> > but it says no overlay support and may never happen.  Are there others, and 
> > is there any overlay support?
> > ...
> There is a macro assembler and linker that run on V7 and later, but I don't 
> think that will help you all that much (though it appears to have some 
> vestiges of OBJ support, I've never tried to enable it).

The key part I need is overlay support, since a number of the components are 
overlaid programs.

paul

Re: Cross-tools

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 6:08 PM Paul Koning  wrote:

>
>
> > On Jun 28, 2022, at 5:25 PM, Warner Losh  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 3:03 PM Paul Koning via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> > I'm looking for cross tools for PDP11.  I know of macro11, and have been
> feeding Olaf assorted fixes.
> >
> > I built my own LIBR (in Python, that was easy enough).
> >
> > So now I'm looking for LINK and TKB.  I found this:
> https://github.com/nzeemin/pclink11 but it says no overlay support and
> may never happen.  Are there others, and is there any overlay support?
> >
> > What about a cross-TKB?
> >
> > My hope is to be able to cross-build all of RSTS that is in assembly
> language.
> >
> > When I did the 2.11BSD restoration project, I used the apout emulator to
> run assemblers, linkers, etc.
> >
> > Are there any user-mode emulators that support RSTS/E system calls?
>
> Not that I know of, and most of the RSTS utilities are in PDP-11 assembly
> language.  So I can run things on SIMH, of course, but cross-builds are
> much faster.  Running the RSTS kernel and loader through the cross macro11
> takes only about 8 seconds of CPU time.
>

Yea, apout ran things in << 1s, so it flies by and is no where near the
long pole in the scripts I wrote to reconstruct patches...

There is a macro assembler and linker that run on V7 and later, but I don't
think that will help you all that much (though it appears to have some
vestiges of OBJ support, I've never tried to enable it).

Warner

Warner

Re: Cross-tools

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Jun 28, 2022, at 5:25 PM, Warner Losh  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 3:03 PM Paul Koning via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> I'm looking for cross tools for PDP11.  I know of macro11, and have been 
> feeding Olaf assorted fixes.
> 
> I built my own LIBR (in Python, that was easy enough).
> 
> So now I'm looking for LINK and TKB.  I found this: 
> https://github.com/nzeemin/pclink11 but it says no overlay support and may 
> never happen.  Are there others, and is there any overlay support?
> 
> What about a cross-TKB?
> 
> My hope is to be able to cross-build all of RSTS that is in assembly language.
> 
> When I did the 2.11BSD restoration project, I used the apout emulator to run 
> assemblers, linkers, etc.
> 
> Are there any user-mode emulators that support RSTS/E system calls?

Not that I know of, and most of the RSTS utilities are in PDP-11 assembly 
language.  So I can run things on SIMH, of course, but cross-builds are much 
faster.  Running the RSTS kernel and loader through the cross macro11 takes 
only about 8 seconds of CPU time.

paul

Re: Cross-tools

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2022 at 3:03 PM Paul Koning via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> I'm looking for cross tools for PDP11.  I know of macro11, and have been
> feeding Olaf assorted fixes.
>
> I built my own LIBR (in Python, that was easy enough).
>
> So now I'm looking for LINK and TKB.  I found this:
> https://github.com/nzeemin/pclink11 but it says no overlay support and
> may never happen.  Are there others, and is there any overlay support?
>
> What about a cross-TKB?
>
> My hope is to be able to cross-build all of RSTS that is in assembly
> language.
>

When I did the 2.11BSD restoration project, I used the apout emulator to
run assemblers, linkers, etc.

Are there any user-mode emulators that support RSTS/E system calls?

Warner

Cross-tools

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

I'm looking for cross tools for PDP11.  I know of macro11, and have been 
feeding Olaf assorted fixes.

I built my own LIBR (in Python, that was easy enough).

So now I'm looking for LINK and TKB.  I found this: 
https://github.com/nzeemin/pclink11 but it says no overlay support and may 
never happen.  Are there others, and is there any overlay support?

What about a cross-TKB?

My hope is to be able to cross-build all of RSTS that is in assembly language.

paul

Re: Viking SCSI controller RS232 adapter

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Tue, Jun 28, 2022, 1:21 PM Zane Healy via cctalk 
wrote:

> On Jun 28, 2022, at 12:10 PM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > For the UDT at least the RS232 lines are regular RS232 and the plug I
> made for communicating with it was just an old PC serial pigtail bodged
> onto a short SCSI ribbon cable.
> >
> > I would expect CON to be CONfiguration port; No idea what FP is for.
>
> That’s good to know.  If you have the actual adapter, it will work for
> both the Unibus and QBus boards.  So what worked for use for a UDT, should
> work on a QBus board
>

You may need to hook a scope to TX lines to know the right levels...

Warner

>

Re: Viking SCSI controller RS232 adapter

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jun 28, 2022, at 12:10 PM, Daniel Seagraves via cctalk 
 wrote:
> 
> For the UDT at least the RS232 lines are regular RS232 and the plug I made 
> for communicating with it was just an old PC serial pigtail bodged onto a 
> short SCSI ribbon cable.
> 
> I would expect CON to be CONfiguration port; No idea what FP is for.

That’s good to know.  If you have the actual adapter, it will work for both the 
Unibus and QBus boards.  So what worked for use for a UDT, should work on a 
QBus board.

Zane

Re: Viking SCSI controller RS232 adapter

[Daniel Seagraves via cctalk]

> On Jun 28, 2022, at 1:29 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> On 6/28/2022 12:58 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
>> I have a couple of these boards but have never got into the on-board monitor 
>> which requires an adapter board that allows a terminal to talk to the 
>> controller board and do various things.
>> 
>> Looking at the manual on bitsavers there is almost enough info to construct 
>> my own adapter board.  Has anyone ever built there own adapter to the 
>> controller?
>> 
>> Doug
>> 
> I wasn't clear about this.  The Viking board I have is a dual width q-bus 
> board that connects SCSI  disk or tape devices VAXes or PDP11s using MSCP 
> protocol.   In the bitsavers manual on figure 8 is a drawing of the 'Serial 
> Port Cable Adapter'.  Table 2 lists the pin-out of the 50 pin IDC connector 
> and which lines are used for what signal.  In that list are these RS232 
> connections:
> 
> IDC pin 20 -> CON TX (RS232)
> 
> IDC pin 22 -> CON Rx (RS232)
> 
> IDC pin 28 -> FP TX (RS232)
> 
> IDC pin 30 -> FP TX (RS232)
> 
> I was able to trace these IDC connections back to an ICL232 chip on the 
> Viking board which is an RS232 driver chip.
> 
> My question is which of these RS232 lines are brought out to the 'Serial Port 
> Cable Adapter'?  Which ground do I use?  What do CON and FP stand for?
> 
> I am trying to de-bug one of the boards and would like to get into the 
> on-board monitor and see what it tells me about the board configuration.

For the UDT at least the RS232 lines are regular RS232 and the plug I made for 
communicating with it was just an old PC serial pigtail bodged onto a short 
SCSI ribbon cable.

I would expect CON to be CONfiguration port; No idea what FP is for.

Re: Viking SCSI controller RS232 adapter

[Douglas Taylor via cctalk]

On 6/28/2022 12:58 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
I have a couple of these boards but have never got into the on-board 
monitor which requires an adapter board that allows a terminal to talk 
to the controller board and do various things.


Looking at the manual on bitsavers there is almost enough info to 
construct my own adapter board.  Has anyone ever built there own 
adapter to the controller?


Doug

I wasn't clear about this.  The Viking board I have is a dual width 
q-bus board that connects SCSI  disk or tape devices VAXes or PDP11s 
using MSCP protocol.   In the bitsavers manual on figure 8 is a drawing 
of the 'Serial Port Cable Adapter'.  Table 2 lists the pin-out of the 50 
pin IDC connector and which lines are used for what signal.  In that 
list are these RS232 connections:


IDC pin 20 -> CON TX (RS232)

IDC pin 22 -> CON Rx (RS232)

IDC pin 28 -> FP TX (RS232)

IDC pin 30 -> FP TX (RS232)

I was able to trace these IDC connections back to an ICL232 chip on the 
Viking board which is an RS232 driver chip.


My question is which of these RS232 lines are brought out to the 'Serial 
Port Cable Adapter'?  Which ground do I use?  What do CON and FP stand for?


I am trying to de-bug one of the boards and would like to get into the 
on-board monitor and see what it tells me about the board configuration.


Doug

Re: Viking SCSI controller RS232 adapter

[Bill Gunshannon via cctalk]

On 6/28/22 13:33, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:

On Jun 28, 2022, at 9:58 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk  
wrote:


I have a couple of these boards but have never got into the on-board monitor 
which requires an adapter board that allows a terminal to talk to the 
controller board and do various things.

Looking at the manual on bitsavers there is almost enough info to construct my 
own adapter board.  Has anyone ever built there own adapter to the controller?

Doug



I seem to recall that it’s more than just a cable, I want to say there is some 
circuitry in there.  Unfortunately I’m not sure where my adapter is at the 
moment.

Zane




I haven't had a Viking board in decades but I thought it was the
same connection as the DLV11-J.

bill

Re: Viking SCSI controller RS232 adapter

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Jun 28, 2022, at 9:58 AM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> I have a couple of these boards but have never got into the on-board monitor 
> which requires an adapter board that allows a terminal to talk to the 
> controller board and do various things.
> 
> Looking at the manual on bitsavers there is almost enough info to construct 
> my own adapter board.  Has anyone ever built there own adapter to the 
> controller?
> 
> Doug


I seem to recall that it’s more than just a cable, I want to say there is some 
circuitry in there.  Unfortunately I’m not sure where my adapter is at the 
moment.

Zane

Re: Viking SCSI controller RS232 adapter

[Chris Zach via cctalk]

Hm, is it just a 5 to 12 volt adapter? You can do that with a max232 
chip or just buy one.


On 6/28/2022 12:58 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctalk wrote:
I have a couple of these boards but have never got into the on-board 
monitor which requires an adapter board that allows a terminal to talk 
to the controller board and do various things.


Looking at the manual on bitsavers there is almost enough info to 
construct my own adapter board.  Has anyone ever built there own adapter 
to the controller?


Doug

Viking SCSI controller RS232 adapter

[Douglas Taylor via cctalk]

I have a couple of these boards but have never got into the on-board 
monitor which requires an adapter board that allows a terminal to talk 
to the controller board and do various things.


Looking at the manual on bitsavers there is almost enough info to 
construct my own adapter board.  Has anyone ever built there own adapter 
to the controller?


Doug

Re: Free stuff in Somerset, England

[Joshua Rice via cctalk]

Times like this make me wish i could drive... I'm not even that far 
away, just down from Bournemouth.
I'd be very interested in the 11/10 and the VT100 though, if only i 
could figure out a way to collect them.
Good luck to all anyway. And if anyone is going past Bournemouth on the 
way here, give me a shout :)


-- Original Message --
From: "Philip Belben via cctalk" 
To: cct...@classiccmp.org; declut...@axeside.co.uk
Sent: Monday, 27 Jun, 2022 At 19:06
Subject: Free stuff in Somerset, England
Dear all,
The cost of living crisis means that I can no longer afford to rent the 
space to store all my collection.  I have therefore decided to give some 
stuff away to anyone who will come and collect it.
Some stuff is in a storage container in Wells; the rest is in my 
basement between Shepton Mallet and Radstock.  (I will give you the 
actual address and instructions to find the place when we've agreed an 
appointment for you to visit.)  As noted above, these addresses are in 
Somerset, England.
The following stuff is definitely available.  Visitors will also be 
welcome to look around my basement and ask for stuff.  I don't guarantee 
to let it go, but I want to (a) empty the storage container and (b) make 
enough space in the basement that I can get at anything I want to work 
on, and work on it.

DEC PDP11 stuff:
A complete 11/10 system - processor box (in a 3U rack mount box - this 
is, I am told, unusual, but it is original), one expansion box, RKO5. 
All mounted in a later (1980s era) half height rack.  (I gave the 
original full-height rack to Toby)
An 11/34 processor box.  Don't know whether I have all the innards.  (No 
idea where it came from!)
The remains of my 11/44 system.  I bought the complete system - 
processor, expansion box, two RL02 drives, RX02 drive, RA80.  I started 
buying stuff to add to it - tape drive, a couple of CDC multi-platter 
hard drives.  I then sold a basic system - processor, one RL02 drive, 
RX02 drive, all in one rack - but have all the rest (except the RA80, 
which I gave to Tony Duell).  So there's a lot of stuff, but probably 
not all the boards (no RL11, for example).  But if anyone wants to build 
an 11/34 system from the bits, they're welcome to try!
A number of DEC hex-height boards and other Unibus stuff.  Probably some 
spare boards for the 11/10.  And a couple of racks from the 11/44 
system.

Other stuff:
A DEC VT100 with no keyboard
a motherboard from an Alphastation (Rod Smallwood has first call on this 
- it was supposed to be in one of the alphastations I gave him years 
ago.)

A Teletype 43
A Perq 2T2 in bits.  It has no working monitor, but I think I can find 
all the other bots.
A Silicon Graphics Personal Iris, also with no monitor, but I have found 
its keyboard and mouse, and some additional boards that may belong to 
it.
an IBM "portable" PC, i.e. an XT with built-in monitor in a luggable 
case.

Lots of DEC manuals - I've not sorted this box.
A Calcomp 1039 plotter.
Five HP Series 80 machines (85, 86, 87) and a box of manuals and 
accessories.  (You are not allowed to take any accessories unless you 
take at least one system unit!)
The other stuff in my basement was mostly acquired from car boot sales 
and clearouts at work in the 1990s and early 2000s, so there's a lot of 
1980s micros there.  I have several Commodore PETs of various flavours; 
I'm probably going to keep my first ever 2001, and an 8296, but most of 
the stuff in between can go.
Please let me know if you are interested, and I can post photos and/or 
more detailed descriptions.  If I don't get any interest, the CDC drives 
and probably the Calcomp plotter, will have to go to the tip.
Everything is offered as seen.  Most of it doesn't work.  You have been 
warned.
Finally, I have set up an e-mail address for you to reply to if you are 
interested: declut...@axeside.co.uk.  I hope to spot replies to the list 
too, but it will help if you copy them to that address as well.

Many thanks,
Philip.