[cctalk] Re: 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, geneb via cctalk wrote: Yep. At least nowdays you can publically embarass companies that pull crap like that - assuming they care of course. :) I don't know the details; didn't Apple push through an "update" that would "brick" phones with third party replacement screens? Did somebody kick their ass? I think that was related to the fingerprint sensor. I didn't pay close attention as I avoid that ecosystem whenever possible. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
[cctalk] Re: 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, geneb via cctalk wrote: Yep. At least nowdays you can publically embarass companies that pull crap like that - assuming they care of course. :) I don't know the details; didn't Apple push through an "update" that would "brick" phones with third party replacement screens? Did somebody kick their ass?
[cctalk] Re: 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: In the EARLY years of the TRS80, Tandy actually believed that they could void the warranty if you opened the case. Eventually, their lawyers explained to them about Magnuson-Moss. Sometimes, it is GREAT to have your adversary lawyer-up, since they will listen to their lawyer, even if they won't believe you. YES, you would be legally correct, but trying to get that through to the droids in the store could be difficult. And, the state attorney general didn't always consider such to be a high priority. So, it was easier just to reseal the case. Yep. At least nowdays you can publically embarass companies that pull crap like that - assuming they care of course. :) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
[cctalk] Re: 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
It's a lot less effort to tell them the sticker was illegal to begin with. ;) . . . and have him have to escalate it to somebody authorized to make exceptions, or argue with tandy lawyers? On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, geneb via cctalk wrote: Nope. You point out that the state attorney(sp) general would love to watch Tandy flail against the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act. ;) I encountered a lot of entities who would not willingly comply with Manuson-Moss. (I was doing auto repair in the 1970s) Although it was enacted in 1975, it took a long time for word to get around. And many companies openly failed to comply, not just coming up with bizarre scenarios to claim that the modification in some extremely roundabout way caused the problem. For example, they could legally get away with claiming that adding a trailer hitch to your car meant that you were towing, and stressing the engine more than intended. Even if you CLAIMED that the hitch was for a bike rack, or a flag for the local sports team. In theory, burden of proof that a modification caused the problem would be on the dealer; but in actuality, . . . And, of course, they would extrapolate that to anything of the running gear of the car. But, when they deny warranty coverage of the windshield wiper motor, then they were flagrantly violating the act. In the EARLY years of the TRS80, Tandy actually believed that they could void the warranty if you opened the case. Eventually, their lawyers explained to them about Magnuson-Moss. Sometimes, it is GREAT to have your adversary lawyer-up, since they will listen to their lawyer, even if they won't believe you. YES, you would be legally correct, but trying to get that through to the droids in the store could be difficult. And, the state attorney general didn't always consider such to be a high priority. So, it was easier just to reseal the case. -- Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
[cctalk] Re: 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: 1) A piece of tamper-proof tape, labeled "breaking this seal voids warranty". If you do major modifications to something, such as a TRS80 model 1, always put a fresh tamper-evident seal on it afterwards, to re-enable the warranty. On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, geneb wrote: It's a lot less effort to tell them the sticker was illegal to begin with. ;) . . . and have him have to escalate it to somebody authorized to make exceptions, or argue with tandy lawyers? Nope. You point out that the state attorney(sp) general would love to watch Tandy flail against the Magnusson-Moss Warranty Act. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
[cctalk] Re: 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
1) A piece of tamper-proof tape, labeled "breaking this seal voids warranty". If you do major modifications to something, such as a TRS80 model 1, always put a fresh tamper-evident seal on it afterwards, to re-enable the warranty. On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, geneb wrote: It's a lot less effort to tell them the sticker was illegal to begin with. ;) . . . and have him have to escalate it to somebody authorized to make exceptions, or argue with tandy lawyers? Nah, it's more FUN to excuse the piggy-backed chips and extra circuitry added in with, "well, it's like building a boat in a bottle, and if the seal isn't broken, then the warraanty is still valid, even with modifications" Although, for a while, we had a tech at the local Radio Shack "Computer Center", who would gladly ignore any modifications for which we gave him circuit diagrams. (lower case, extra keys, memory remapping, RCA jack for composite video out, reverse video, etc.)
[cctalk] Re: 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: 1) A piece of tamper-proof tape, labeled "breaking this seal voids warranty". If you do major modifications to something, such as a TRS80 model 1, always put a fresh tamper-evident seal on it afterwards, to re-enable the warranty. It's a lot less effort to tell them the sticker was illegal to begin with. ;) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
[cctalk] Re: 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
Here's a photo of a "combo" Wright Line rack. Note how the upper row of tapes are hung from a rail. https://photovault.com/data/resize/800x550/TEC/TECV01P01_19.jpg?a21a7d6f2c85140ab281fe847fc313ac --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
1) A piece of tamper-proof tape, labeled "breaking this seal voids warranty". If you do major modifications to something, such as a TRS80 model 1, always put a fresh tamper-evident seal on it afterwards, to re-enable the warranty. 2) Also called a "tape hanger", a piece of plastic that wraps around the circumference of a reel of tape to keep it from unrolling all over the floor, and has a hook for hanging the tape in a rack. Now known to have a limited lifespan. 3) "tape, seal" 3M Temflex type 21557, used to attach a VHF transmitter to pinnipeds, such as northern elephant seals, for tracking On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: Point of order for the dummies: what is a tape seal? Sellam On 11/14/22 04:25, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: I've been reporting on 9-track tape seal failures over at least the past 2 decades here.
[cctalk] Re: 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
On 11/14/22 10:56, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > Point of order for the dummies: what is a tape seal? > > Sellam The type under discussion is this: https://forum.vcfed.org/index.php?attachments/1667864510113-png.1248420/ The "band" that goes around a reel of 1/2" tape and allows it to be hung in a rack. Wright-Line was big in this type. https://www.govdeals.com/photos/767/767_18381_19.jpg IBM used a different seal with their autoloading drives and storage racks for those worked a bit differently. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
> On Nov 14, 2022, at 1:56 PM, Sellam Abraham via cctalk > wrote: > > Point of order for the dummies: what is a tape seal? A wrapper around the rim of a 1/2 inch tape reel, to protect it and allow for storage. It's more compact than the alternative, a canister to hold the tape, though both were used. Tape seals come in two flavors. One is just a seal -- it protects the tape and has a hook to hang it in a storage rack. To use the tape, you remove the seal and load the tape reel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Tapeprotection.jpg -- the white rim around the reel, with the black hook at the top of the photo. The other is a seal but also can be opened by the drive mechanism to allow the tape end to escape through a slot in the seal. These were used for auto-loading tape drives. You'd mount the reel, seal and all, hit "load" and the drive would make the tape end come out of the seal slot, thread it through the tape drive path and onto the take up reel, and get it ready for use. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Magnetic-tape_hg.jpg The ones that fail are the first type, made of soft plastic that's either deficient in strenght or in longevity, or perhaps both. paul
[cctalk] Re: 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
Point of order for the dummies: what is a tape seal? Sellam On Mon, Nov 14, 2022 at 8:36 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 11/14/22 04:25, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > > I've been reporting on 9-track tape seal failures over at least the past > 2 decades here. > > > > I first noticed the problem in the very early 2000's, and thought it was > just random onesy-twosy failures, possibly contributed to by ozone in LA > region, but over the past 20 years the failures have progressed. > > > > Sometime in the past couple weeks the last of my "soft" 9-track tape > seals failed, because there is nothing but broken tape seals left hanging > in the Wright-Line rack that had all my "new" aka 3M Blackwatch 703 tapes. > > > > Very very few of the older (I think of them as IBM or 70's/80's style) > "hard plastic" tape seals failed. > > > > I wrote about this problem here at least 2 or 3 years ago, Although > there must have been millions of these soft seals manufactured (that's > not an exaggeration; the US government, for example, used hundreds of > thousands of them). And yes, the IBM autoloader tape seal(for 3400 > series drives) is very durable--I haven't seen many of these fail. > > But what I call the "Wright Line" PVC tape seal will age out and > eventually crack and break. Usually this occurs where the "hook" is > attached, due to the attachment being a hole punched in the PVC belt. > On a couple of occasions, I've had the seals split longitudinally. This > is almost epidemic on 1960s and 70s 7 track tapes, due to their age. > > Locating replacements has proven to be an exercise in futility, > particularly when one realizes that even relatively new ones are doomed > to fail. > > What I've done for customers is return their 10.5" reels in 16mm > plastic tape "cans" in the 800' size. The fit is perfect and I've > received no complaints. Film "cans" for smaller reels are also > available. My source for these is Urbanski Film, although there are > other vendors--and the "cans" are still being manufactured. > > --Chuck > > > > >
[cctalk] Re: 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
On 11/14/22 04:25, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: > I've been reporting on 9-track tape seal failures over at least the past 2 > decades here. > > I first noticed the problem in the very early 2000's, and thought it was just > random onesy-twosy failures, possibly contributed to by ozone in LA region, > but over the past 20 years the failures have progressed. > > Sometime in the past couple weeks the last of my "soft" 9-track tape seals > failed, because there is nothing but broken tape seals left hanging in the > Wright-Line rack that had all my "new" aka 3M Blackwatch 703 tapes. > > Very very few of the older (I think of them as IBM or 70's/80's style) "hard > plastic" tape seals failed. > I wrote about this problem here at least 2 or 3 years ago, Although there must have been millions of these soft seals manufactured (that's not an exaggeration; the US government, for example, used hundreds of thousands of them). And yes, the IBM autoloader tape seal(for 3400 series drives) is very durable--I haven't seen many of these fail. But what I call the "Wright Line" PVC tape seal will age out and eventually crack and break. Usually this occurs where the "hook" is attached, due to the attachment being a hole punched in the PVC belt. On a couple of occasions, I've had the seals split longitudinally. This is almost epidemic on 1960s and 70s 7 track tapes, due to their age. Locating replacements has proven to be an exercise in futility, particularly when one realizes that even relatively new ones are doomed to fail. What I've done for customers is return their 10.5" reels in 16mm plastic tape "cans" in the 800' size. The fit is perfect and I've received no complaints. Film "cans" for smaller reels are also available. My source for these is Urbanski Film, although there are other vendors--and the "cans" are still being manufactured. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
On 11/14/22 09:19, Jon Elson via cctalk wrote: On 11/14/22 06:25, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: I've been reporting on 9-track tape seal failures over at least the past 2 decades here. Very very few of the older (I think of them as IBM or 70's/80's style) "hard plastic" tape seals failed. Yup, these seals were under tension. I think the failure mechanism is the square holes in the seal band develop cracks at the outer corners, and the tension continues to expand the crack. The soft seals were Polyethelene, I think, the "hard" seals for use on drives with auto-loaders were Cyclolac, AKA ABS, and were not in much tension when closed. Jon
[cctalk] Re: 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
On 11/14/22 06:25, Shoppa, Tim via cctalk wrote: I've been reporting on 9-track tape seal failures over at least the past 2 decades here. I first noticed the problem in the very early 2000's, and thought it was just random onesy-twosy failures, possibly contributed to by ozone in LA region, but over the past 20 years the failures have progressed. Sometime in the past couple weeks the last of my "soft" 9-track tape seals failed, because there is nothing but broken tape seals left hanging in the Wright-Line rack that had all my "new" aka 3M Blackwatch 703 tapes. Very very few of the older (I think of them as IBM or 70's/80's style) "hard plastic" tape seals failed. Yup, these seals were under tension. I think the failure mechanism is the square holes in the seal band develop cracks at the outer corners, and the tension continues to expand the crack. Jon
[cctalk] 100% Tape Seal (soft kind) failure
I've been reporting on 9-track tape seal failures over at least the past 2 decades here. I first noticed the problem in the very early 2000's, and thought it was just random onesy-twosy failures, possibly contributed to by ozone in LA region, but over the past 20 years the failures have progressed. Sometime in the past couple weeks the last of my "soft" 9-track tape seals failed, because there is nothing but broken tape seals left hanging in the Wright-Line rack that had all my "new" aka 3M Blackwatch 703 tapes. Very very few of the older (I think of them as IBM or 70's/80's style) "hard plastic" tape seals failed. Tim N3QE
[cctalk] Re: Any working Datapoint 2200 systems?
On Mon, 14 Nov 2022, jos wrote: if anyone wants to go ahead I will gladly share my Kicad project ! Mind you, the diddlescan is a problem as that requires a CRT yoke with 3 windings Reminds me of the Cogar C4/ICL 1500 system that has a rotated deflection also with diddlescan ;-) But I think it uses only two windings and overlays the character deflection with the vertical deflection (it's desribed in the service manuals). Christian
[cctalk] Re: Any working Datapoint 2200 systems?
On 13.11.22 21:14, Steve Lewis via cctalk wrote: Thanks Jos, I hadn't realized how similar the DP1100 is. This brochure has a great image of the font right on the front page (80x12 text): http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/1100/Dataform_1100_Brochure_1974.pdf Maybe something similar can be done for the old DP's? I understand for authentic/historical perspective all original components is prefered, but using a substitute PSU is reasonable for checking out the rest of the system. The DP2200 needs secondaries of 450V, 120V,40V, 25V, -25V, 12V, -12V 5V and -5V. Yep, can be done, but. What an amazing system those Datapoints were, for their time. The chicken-farm story in the DP2200 book is really fun - these farmers being savvy enough to code up what they needed, and the systems compact enough to fit in the farms and using modems even to sync up data (pre-1975). They were, and are, indeed nice little systems...really need to get mine up again, also because I have a Diablo disk system for it. Must be extremely rare.. But, in extracting the data on those TTLs, it seems like a modern replica of a DP2200 would be possible. Sure, I even have the complete DP2200 MB in Kicad, see http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/datapoint/2200/jdreesen_shematics/DP2200_mb.pdf if anyone wants to go ahead I will gladly share my Kicad project ! Mind you, the diddlescan is a problem as that requires a CRT yoke with 3 windings Jos
