[cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc
I think I have TSX/RX02 versions of Saturn stuff out there already. Where is it Ah here: https://www.crystel.com/pdp/ Wow, I have a dsm11 disk image there too? Weird. And the XT Tool kit guide (prior to when it was called the Pro/350). Let me know if those contain anything interesting. Chris On 12/30/2022 9:03 PM, Kenneth Gober via cctalk wrote: On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 7:23 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. Is it possible the images are 'physical' disk images rather than 'logical' disk images and have sector interleaving applied? That can cause things to appear in odd places. -ken
[cctalk] Re: SGI vs. Mac
I went to Onyx2/Origin 2000 training in Mountain View in the building that is now the Computer History Museum and I met a lot of Gov folks but I also met a lot of oil people who used SGIs to crunch data. At the time no one could touch them but that too changed As for workstations the one I remember being a real competitor was Intergraph. They had dual pentium pro boxes with proprietary cards that ran NT and Softimage. Microsoft bought Softimage to compete with SGI and SGI bought Alias Wavefront On Sat, Dec 24, 2022, 4:15 PM Ethan O'Toole via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > Really without the US government as a customer I wonder how many of these > companies could have made it on industry alone. > > - Ethan >
[cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes
On 12/30/22 17:37, Bill Degnan via cctalk wrote: > THere were certain tape manufacturers and plastic/metal clip marks and wear > patters that were typical of certain types of drives reading certain types > of tapes. Maybe high resolution photos of a few used tapes will reveal > clues. A tape ejected 30 times will have certain patterns of wear in > certain places. I have lots of different types of tapes, I am happy to > compare your used tape photos with anything I might have that would be > similar. > Not a guaranteed solution, but it might help narrow down candidate systems. > Bill > Heck, I'd just unspool a bit of the stuff, drop some Kyread on it and have a gander with the old microscope. That can at least tell me how many tracks are involved. But being a quarter-inch cartridge leaves a lot of ground open. For instance, what if these tapes are Iotaamat-formatted? A regular QIC drive will have nothing to do with them. There were other manufacturers (Cipher 525) comes to mind that do not use standard formatting techniques. On some of the later 8mm Travan carts, the tape is will-o'-the-wisp thin. FWIW, Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc
On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 7:23 AM Nigel Johnson Ham via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks > appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. > Is it possible the images are 'physical' disk images rather than 'logical' disk images and have sector interleaving applied? That can cause things to appear in odd places. -ken
[cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes
On 12/30/22 15:17, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > This may be a larger conversation than I intend but how would you all > generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and > read/restore? > > Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the > structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used, > would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? Then > see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards? It is unlikely that the tapes are in tar format, so tar on Linux won't help. The chance that they are in tar format is much higher if they're from Amix (Amiga Unix) instead of AmigaOS. There is a better possibility that the tapes were created by BRU since AmigaOS 2.x (and maybe later) included a version of that. BRU is now Argest Backup, if you need to go down that road. It is also possible that the tapes were created with any of the many third-party backup applications that existed for AmigaOS. In any case, using dd (not tar) on Linux to copy the tapes to disk to "interpret" and "sort out files afterwards" is at least a starting point. Other list members are better qualified to comment on the physical aspects of doing that without destroying the fragile old tapes.
[cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes
THere were certain tape manufacturers and plastic/metal clip marks and wear patters that were typical of certain types of drives reading certain types of tapes. Maybe high resolution photos of a few used tapes will reveal clues. A tape ejected 30 times will have certain patterns of wear in certain places. I have lots of different types of tapes, I am happy to compare your used tape photos with anything I might have that would be similar. Not a guaranteed solution, but it might help narrow down candidate systems. Bill On Fri, Dec 30, 2022 at 8:01 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > On 12/30/22 12:17, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > > This may be a larger conversation than I intend but how would you all > > generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and > > read/restore? > > > > Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the > > structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used, > > would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? > Then > > see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards? > > > > I might see if a local group wants to help play with this effort since I > > think I only have 1 drive in unknown condition. > The tape substrate itself, being mylar, is very durable, but it's toast > if stretched. Most likely, the internal tension band has either gone > slack or has broken and should be replaced, or else tape tangles can > result. Most importantly, details are necessary (what kind of carts, > what drive manufacturer and model, etc.) There are lots of potential > variations. To be frank, I hate the damned stuff. > > --Chuck > > > -- > --Chuck > > Sent from my digital computer >
[cctalk] Re: Restoring unknown format backup tapes
On 12/30/22 12:17, John Herron via cctalk wrote: > This may be a larger conversation than I intend but how would you all > generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and > read/restore? > > Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the > structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used, > would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? Then > see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards? > > I might see if a local group wants to help play with this effort since I > think I only have 1 drive in unknown condition. The tape substrate itself, being mylar, is very durable, but it's toast if stretched. Most likely, the internal tension band has either gone slack or has broken and should be replaced, or else tape tangles can result. Most importantly, details are necessary (what kind of carts, what drive manufacturer and model, etc.) There are lots of potential variations. To be frank, I hate the damned stuff. --Chuck -- --Chuck Sent from my digital computer
[cctalk] Re: cctalk Digest, Vol 147, Issue 1
>Message: 4 >Date: Fri, 30 Dec 2022 07:23:28 -0500 >From: Nigel Johnson Ham >Subject: [cctalk] Saturn-Calc >To: cctalk >Message-ID: <4c5f94c9-7406-f409-cbee-0fb629961...@gmail.com> >Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed > >Hi all, > >My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from >RT11 backups, and I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would like to see again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone! > >I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. > >Does anybody know of a source? > >cheers, > >Nigel Hi Nigel, I have what appears to be a complete set of RX50 disks for CAL, WPS and GRF. Images are here -> http://avitech.com.au/?page_id=2570 I haven't tried them. Regards, Malcolm
[cctalk] Restoring unknown format backup tapes
This may be a larger conversation than I intend but how would you all generally start if you ha backup tapes that you wanted to try and read/restore? Supposedly they're Amiga qic tapes. I'm a little worried about the structural integrity of the tapes. Not knowing what software was used, would this be a literal job for something like tar via a Linux system? Then see if I can interpret the dump and sort out files afterwards? I might see if a local group wants to help play with this effort since I think I only have 1 drive in unknown condition.
[cctalk] Re: Saturn-Calc
> On Dec 30, 2022, at 12:00 PM, cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org wrote: > > Hi all, > > My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from RT11 > backups, and I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would like to see > again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone! > > I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks appear to > be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. > > Does anybody know of a source? > > cheers, > > Nigel Nigel, I’ve been trying to find a working distribution for PDP-11 Saturn-Calc and Graph for some years now. I had a licensed copy many years ago for RSX11M but it no longer works. I do have a working copy of Saturn-Calc and Graph (but not WP) for VMS on my MV3100-80 but not the VMS distribution. I have managed to contact the lead programmer that developed Saturn’s software through a former president of the company. The programmer believes he has a copy of the source code for PDP-11 and VAX on a CDROM that is in a storage unit. He has retired overseas and come back home where the storage unit is a couple times a year and I’m hoping he can find the CDROM on his next trip back. I can keep you posted on our progress in trying to recover this software. It helps that the programmer is interested in making the Saturn products available as it may need to be recompiled or at least relinked to be compatible with the newest versions of PDP-11 operating systems with Y2K etc. We thought we had it recovered a couple years ago when nine RX50 floppies were found in Australia that were from a distributor that could be used to generate new customer distributions, but there was no documentation and some info was missing. Also, manuals for the Saturn products have not been scanned so we are looking for them as well. If you had some specific Saturn Calc spreadsheets that you wanted data extracted from, I might be able to help you with my working VMS version of Calc. Saturn Calc was a great product that we used a great deal back in the day. The Saturn Graph product supported VT340s with the mouse and could generate plots a wide variety of HP and other plotters, printers, etc. Best Regards, Mark
[cctalk] Saturn-Calc
Hi all, My 11/73 restoration has got to the point that I am loading stuff from RT11 backups, and I have a lot of Saturn-calc and wp data that I would like to see again. My licensed copy and the manual are long gone! I downloaded some RX02 images posted by Mark Matlock, but the disks appear to be all zeroes where I expect the directory to be. Does anybody know of a source? cheers, Nigel -- Nigel Johnson, MSc., MIEEE, MCSE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! Skype: TILBURY2591
