[cctalk] Re: flipchip cleaning and pin corrosion inhibition

[Christopher Zach via cctalk]

People who used to do watches. Similar size issues.

On April 25, 2023 3:38:16 PM GMT+02:00, Paul Koning via cctalk 
 wrote:
>
>
>> On Apr 25, 2023, at 9:25 AM, KenUnix via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Rod,
>> 
>> Never heard the singing. Switch room's were too noisy.
>> 
>> It always amazed me that those core planes were hand wired. I guess by
>> little people. Or, big people with little hands.
>
>People (often women I think) with steady hands.  I think the setup used a work 
>surface with notches in it corresponding to the positions of each core.  They 
>would pour a cup full of cores onto that and use gentle shaking and vibrating 
>to get all those notches filled, then pour off the excess.  Next, threading 
>the cores much like you thread a needle -- except that the wire is stiffer 
>than thread and thus easier to make it go straight through.
>
>One wonders if this could have been done by machine.  Probably yes, but given 
>the volumes involved I suppose the capital investment wasn't justified.
>
>The more amazing kind of hand-wired core is core ROM, where the wires weave in 
>and out of various cores according to the required bit pattern.  Getting that 
>right seems like a far more complicated craft.
>
>   paul
>
>

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Christopher Zach via cctalk]

Well there is an agreement that if paul ever got tired of ai, lost interest, 
and wanted to get rid of it then I would show up with a U-Haul to pick it up 
off the dock.

All this has happened before, all this will happen again.

Digex, sandstorm, ftp, etc. Funny I thought it would end with Paul.

CZ

(My burden, I'm stuck with it)

On April 25, 2023 3:50:33 PM GMT+02:00, Paul Koning via cctalk 
 wrote:
>
>
>> On Apr 25, 2023, at 9:43 AM, geneb via cctalk  wrote:
>> 
>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>>> Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
>>> firesale of the assets.
>> AFAIK, it's a 503(c), and I suspect if they started to "fire sale" assets, 
>> lawsuits from folks that made significant donations would be inbound.
>
>Maybe, but what grounds would there be for a suit?  If you donate to the 
>museum, the thing becomes their property, to dispose of as they see fit.  That 
>is, unless you have a contract that says otherwise -- and even so, you'd have 
>to hope that a court would enforce a contract.  There is ample precedent of 
>courts disregarding the plain English text of contracts or trusts to permit 
>museums to do things prohibited by the terms of agreements with donors.  A 
>recent one (name forgotten) in Pennsylvania comes to mind.
>
>   paul
>
>

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Christopher Zach via cctalk]

Let's see where this goes. I might need to do a forensic dump, fire up my NeXT 
and find the letters and documents around ai.ai.mit.edu

Figured this would happen.

On April 25, 2023 3:03:02 PM GMT+02:00, Paul Koning via cctalk 
 wrote:
>
>
>> On Apr 25, 2023, at 2:16 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
>> firesale of the assets.
>> Otherwise a lot of donors and contributors would be rightfully upset - me
>> included.
>
>I know of at least one donor who realized his mistake years ago, and wishes he 
>had lent his collection to the museum rather than donating it.  That's not 
>foolproof (a museum may not exercise due care) but at least you don't have to 
>worry about the museum, or some heir, deciding to trash the stuff.
>
>   paul
>
>

[cctalk] Re: websites as subdomains under classiccmp.org

[Tarek Hoteit via cctalk]

Interesting.
So what comes up using The Doctor's URL are:

- CPM Archives http://cpmarchives.classiccmp.org
- Altair 32 http://altair32.classiccmp.org
- url with broken links http://joe.classiccmp.org
- Joe's Computer Mania  http://joe.classiccmp.org/joespage.htm 
- some 6800 material http://sjsclassicdocs.classiccmp.org
- Transputer page http://transputer.classiccmp.org
- Rich's classic computing pages http://cini.classiccmp.org
- Daves Old Computers http://dunfield.classiccmp.org

The CP/M one is awesome!

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 04:13:01PM +, The Doctor via cctalk wrote:
> 
> --- Original Message ---
> On Monday, April 24th, 2023 at 22:48, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> > I learned today about Dave’s Old Computer website 
> > http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/ which is
> > listed as a subdomain under classiccmp.org. I wasn’t aware of subdomain 
> > sites. Can any one
> > list any other ones or is a list of sites available ?
> 
> From a quick search:
> 
> https://online.seranking.com/research.competitor.html/organic/subdomains?input=classiccmp.org=base_domain
> 
> The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510]
> WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/
> Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean.
> 

-- 
Regards,
Tarek Hoteit

[cctalk] Re: flipchip cleaning and pin corrosion inhibition

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/25/23 10:46, Paul Berger via cctalk wrote:
> IBM did develop a machine to thread the wires through cores.  The cores
> where held in place in a tray by vacuum and wires threaded through by
> hollow needles to quote the book IBM's Early Computers, "When introduced
> in 1959, this core threading machine reduced the time to thread X and Y
> wires in a 64x64 plane from 25 hours to 12 minutes"  From that quote I
> am guessing that the sense and inhibit lines where still wired by hand.

An alternative was to use a simplified threading scheme.   I'm still
amazed to this day that CDC ECS worked reliably:

https://ed-thelen.org/comp-hist/images/50690729-CDC-ExtendedCoreStorage.pdf

--Chuck

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 4/25/23 01:16, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote:

Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
firesale of the assets.
Otherwise a lot of donors and contributors would be rightfully upset - me
included.
I am disappointed that Bill Gates hasn't bought it already to continue
Paul's vision.


I guess Bill doesn't like old computers.  Constant turnover 
of newer machines sells a LOT of MS products.


Jon

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote:

Little old Billy G?
lol, like he gives a shit. He's too busy selling his snake oil and figuring
out ways to turn bugs and chemicals into your next meal.
I literally should have strangled him to death when I had the opportunity.


Naah.
Turn him into a millionaire!
Imagine what it would do to him to have his net worth become $1,000,000.
Although why would anybody need more than 640K?

[cctalk] Re: flipchip cleaning and pin corrosion inhibition

[Paul Berger via cctalk]

IBM did develop a machine to thread the wires through cores.  The cores 
where held in place in a tray by vacuum and wires threaded through by 
hollow needles to quote the book IBM's Early Computers, "When introduced 
in 1959, this core threading machine reduced the time to thread X and Y 
wires in a 64x64 plane from 25 hours to 12 minutes"  From that quote I 
am guessing that the sense and inhibit lines where still wired by hand.


Paul.


On 2023-04-25 10:38 a.m., Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:



On Apr 25, 2023, at 9:25 AM, KenUnix via cctalk  wrote:

Rod,

Never heard the singing. Switch room's were too noisy.

It always amazed me that those core planes were hand wired. I guess by
little people. Or, big people with little hands.

People (often women I think) with steady hands.  I think the setup used a work 
surface with notches in it corresponding to the positions of each core.  They 
would pour a cup full of cores onto that and use gentle shaking and vibrating 
to get all those notches filled, then pour off the excess.  Next, threading the 
cores much like you thread a needle -- except that the wire is stiffer than 
thread and thus easier to make it go straight through.

One wonders if this could have been done by machine.  Probably yes, but given 
the volumes involved I suppose the capital investment wasn't justified.

The more amazing kind of hand-wired core is core ROM, where the wires weave in 
and out of various cores according to the required bit pattern.  Getting that 
right seems like a far more complicated craft.

paul

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

I’m not sure what you’re referring to.  Prior to Paul Allen’s death, I was 
mostly happy with LCM.  There is one box that I *REALLY* wish I hadn’t donated 
to LCM.

Zane



> On Apr 25, 2023, at 8:17 AM, ED SHARPE  wrote:
> 
> But Zane you seemed disenchanted with museums even before LCM closed...  
> apparently you wee not happy with LCM?  Fill us in?
> 
> Sent from AOL on Android 
> 
> On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 8:11 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk
>  wrote:
> On Apr 24, 2023, at 11:16 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk  > wrote:
> > 
> > Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
> > firesale of the assets.
> > Otherwise a lot of donors and contributors would be rightfully upset - me
> > included.
> 
> I’m already unhappy, and wishing I’d not donated to the museum.
> 
> 
> Zane

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Apr 25, 2023, at 11:55 AM, Alan Perry  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 25, 2023, at 06:03, Paul Koning via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Apr 25, 2023, at 2:16 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
>>> firesale of the assets.
>>> Otherwise a lot of donors and contributors would be rightfully upset - me
>>> included.
>> 
>> I know of at least one donor who realized his mistake years ago, and wishes 
>> he had lent his collection to the museum rather than donating it.  That's 
>> not foolproof (a museum may not exercise due care) but at least you don't 
>> have to worry about the museum, or some heir, deciding to trash the stuff.
> 
> Was lending ever an option with LCM? I loaned documents to an individual 
> there but when I was donating items to the museum itself I was told that they 
> didn’t do loaning of items.

Maybe, maybe not.  But, given my own experience, I would have a "take it or 
leave it" attitude with any museum.  If you want it, you can have it as a long 
term loan, but I don't care about your policies; you can't have it as a 
donation.

paul

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Apr 25, 2023, at 11:27 AM, Ethan O'Toole  wrote:
> 
>> One oddity about LCM was that they seemed to be into non-disclosure 
>> agreements.  It's rather bizarre for a museum to recruit people for a 
>> technical advisory group to help them with understanding old hardware, and 
>> then require them to sign an NDA for the privilege of helping them.
>>  paul
> 
> I assume with the immense wealth PA had that anyone and everyone connected to 
> him were sought out by people looking to try to pitch ideas, get grants, try 
> to sell thing things, etc. Maybe NDA helped reduce that noise to the org.
> 
>   - Ethan

But an NDA wouldn't do any of that.  And conversely, asking people who are 
volunteering their expert historic knowledge to sign an NDA is rather 
insulting.  Not to mention legally questionable, because if applied strictly it 
would block those people from conveying the knowledge they have to LCM!

paul

[cctalk] Re: websites as subdomains under classiccmp.org

[The Doctor via cctalk]

--- Original Message ---
On Monday, April 24th, 2023 at 22:48, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk 
 wrote:


> I learned today about Dave’s Old Computer website 
> http://dunfield.classiccmp.org/ which is
> listed as a subdomain under classiccmp.org. I wasn’t aware of subdomain 
> sites. Can any one
> list any other ones or is a list of sites available ?

>From a quick search:

https://online.seranking.com/research.competitor.html/organic/subdomains?input=classiccmp.org=base_domain

The Doctor [412/724/301/703/415/510]
WWW: https://drwho.virtadpt.net/
Don't be mean. You don't have to be mean.

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Alan Perry via cctalk]

> On Apr 25, 2023, at 06:03, Paul Koning via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 25, 2023, at 2:16 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
>> firesale of the assets.
>> Otherwise a lot of donors and contributors would be rightfully upset - me
>> included.
> 
> I know of at least one donor who realized his mistake years ago, and wishes 
> he had lent his collection to the museum rather than donating it.  That's not 
> foolproof (a museum may not exercise due care) but at least you don't have to 
> worry about the museum, or some heir, deciding to trash the stuff.

Was lending ever an option with LCM? I loaned documents to an individual there 
but when I was donating items to the museum itself I was told that they didn’t 
do loaning of items.

alan

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Ethan O'Toole via cctalk]

One oddity about LCM was that they seemed to be into non-disclosure 
agreements.  It's rather bizarre for a museum to recruit people for a 
technical advisory group to help them with understanding old hardware, 
and then require them to sign an NDA for the privilege of helping them.

paul


I assume with the immense wealth PA had that anyone and everyone connected 
to him were sought out by people looking to try to pitch ideas, get 
grants, try to sell thing things, etc. Maybe NDA helped reduce that noise 
to the org.


- Ethan

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Tarek Hoteit via cctalk]

p.s. #2. Don’t use Windows either. 

Regards,
Tarek Hoteit

> On Apr 25, 2023, at 8:21 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 4/25/23 06:54, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote:
>> Wasn’t his sister busy buying or selling a sports team and showed no 
>> interests in the museum? Same for Gates. Busy explaining how ChatGPT is the 
>> best thing ever while all the money spent for “saving the world” seems to 
>> have led to nothing. 
>> 
> Well, there's the Gates Archive--a real 501(c)3 organization dedicated
> to preserving BillG's history.
> Based on my contacts with them, they appear to be very top-heavy,
> bean-counterish.  I gave up trying to do business with them after yet
> another layer of paperwork was required.
> 
> --Chuck
> 
> P.S. I don't use Windows.
> 

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Apr 25, 2023, at 11:17 AM, ED SHARPE via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> But Zane you seemed disenchanted with museums even before LCM closed...  
> apparently you wee not happy with LCM?  Fill us in?

One oddity about LCM was that they seemed to be into non-disclosure agreements. 
 It's rather bizarre for a museum to recruit people for a technical advisory 
group to help them with understanding old hardware, and then require them to 
sign an NDA for the privilege of helping them.

paul

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 4/25/23 06:54, Tarek Hoteit via cctalk wrote:
> Wasn’t his sister busy buying or selling a sports team and showed no 
> interests in the museum? Same for Gates. Busy explaining how ChatGPT is the 
> best thing ever while all the money spent for “saving the world” seems to 
> have led to nothing. 
> 
Well, there's the Gates Archive--a real 501(c)3 organization dedicated
to preserving BillG's history.
Based on my contacts with them, they appear to be very top-heavy,
bean-counterish.  I gave up trying to do business with them after yet
another layer of paperwork was required.

--Chuck

P.S. I don't use Windows.

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

But Zane you seemed disenchanted with museums even before LCM closed...  
apparently you wee not happy with LCM?  Fill us in?

Sent from AOL on Android 
 
  On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 8:11 AM, Zane Healy via cctalk 
wrote:   On Apr 24, 2023, at 11:16 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk 
 wrote:
> 
> Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
> firesale of the assets.
> Otherwise a lot of donors and contributors would be rightfully upset - me
> included.

I’m already unhappy, and wishing I’d not donated to the museum.

Zane  

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On Apr 24, 2023, at 11:16 PM, Tom Hunter via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
> firesale of the assets.
> Otherwise a lot of donors and contributors would be rightfully upset - me
> included.

I’m already unhappy, and wishing I’d not donated to the museum.

Zane

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Adrian Godwin via cctalk]

I think museums these days are careful to make sure donations really are
that. Not, probably, because they see a sale in their future but because in
the event of commercial failure they don't want to have to execute
thousands of different disposal requirements.

On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 2:55 PM Tarek Hoteit via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Wasn’t his sister busy buying or selling a sports team and showed no
> interests in the museum? Same for Gates. Busy explaining how ChatGPT is the
> best thing ever while all the money spent for “saving the world” seems to
> have led to nothing.
>
> Regards,
> Tarek Hoteit
>
> > On Apr 25, 2023, at 6:50 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > 
> >
> >> On Apr 25, 2023, at 9:43 AM, geneb via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote:
> >>>
> >>> Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
> >>> firesale of the assets.
> >> AFAIK, it's a 503(c), and I suspect if they started to "fire sale"
> assets, lawsuits from folks that made significant donations would be
> inbound.
> >
> > Maybe, but what grounds would there be for a suit?  If you donate to the
> museum, the thing becomes their property, to dispose of as they see fit.
> That is, unless you have a contract that says otherwise -- and even so,
> you'd have to hope that a court would enforce a contract.  There is ample
> precedent of courts disregarding the plain English text of contracts or
> trusts to permit museums to do things prohibited by the terms of agreements
> with donors.  A recent one (name forgotten) in Pennsylvania comes to mind.
> >
> >paul
> >
> >
>

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Tarek Hoteit via cctalk]

Wasn’t his sister busy buying or selling a sports team and showed no interests 
in the museum? Same for Gates. Busy explaining how ChatGPT is the best thing 
ever while all the money spent for “saving the world” seems to have led to 
nothing. 

Regards,
Tarek Hoteit

> On Apr 25, 2023, at 6:50 AM, Paul Koning via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> On Apr 25, 2023, at 9:43 AM, geneb via cctalk  wrote:
>> 
>>> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
>>> firesale of the assets.
>> AFAIK, it's a 503(c), and I suspect if they started to "fire sale" assets, 
>> lawsuits from folks that made significant donations would be inbound.
> 
> Maybe, but what grounds would there be for a suit?  If you donate to the 
> museum, the thing becomes their property, to dispose of as they see fit.  
> That is, unless you have a contract that says otherwise -- and even so, you'd 
> have to hope that a court would enforce a contract.  There is ample precedent 
> of courts disregarding the plain English text of contracts or trusts to 
> permit museums to do things prohibited by the terms of agreements with 
> donors.  A recent one (name forgotten) in Pennsylvania comes to mind.
> 
>paul
> 
> 

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Apr 25, 2023, at 9:43 AM, geneb via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
>> firesale of the assets.
> AFAIK, it's a 503(c), and I suspect if they started to "fire sale" assets, 
> lawsuits from folks that made significant donations would be inbound.

Maybe, but what grounds would there be for a suit?  If you donate to the 
museum, the thing becomes their property, to dispose of as they see fit.  That 
is, unless you have a contract that says otherwise -- and even so, you'd have 
to hope that a court would enforce a contract.  There is ample precedent of 
courts disregarding the plain English text of contracts or trusts to permit 
museums to do things prohibited by the terms of agreements with donors.  A 
recent one (name forgotten) in Pennsylvania comes to mind.

paul

[cctalk] Re: flipchip cleaning and pin corrosion inhibition

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Apr 25, 2023, at 9:37 AM, Rod Bartlett via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Ken,
> 
> Core places being hand wired amazed me as well.  The maintenance panels on 
> the Honeywell mainframes were hand wired as well.  They were works of art 
> with lots of toggle switches and lights (the later models switched to LEDs).  
> I could see most of the internal registers using a fancy scroll wheel to 
> select what register the lights should show.  I could also enter small 
> diagnostic programs and single step through them using the panel.
> 
> Most of our core memories were 256K of 36 bit words (with a few spares for 
> each location).  They took up lots of floor space.  I suspect the fact that 
> the power supplies had to drive that much equipment was what made them sing.

The biggest core memories I remember are the ones in CDC mainframes "extended 
core storage" -- at U of Illinois we had a 2 MW config, 60 bit words plus 
parity.  Actually, ECS was organized as 488 bit words, with 6 µs access time, 8 
way interleaved, for a transfer rate of 10 MW per second (matching central 
memory).  Nice.

That was an odd structure, it was described as "linear select" which I think 
means an address line per word rather than the usual X/Y concident current 
selection scheme.  Pictures show a rectangular memory array; perhaps it was 488 
bits high by some number (512?) wide but I haven't been able to find the 
details.

paul

[cctalk] Re: flipchip cleaning and pin corrosion inhibition

[KenUnix via cctalk]

Yep. Back then it was a form of non-volatile memory. Maintained what was on
it after power off.

Ken


On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 9:38 AM Paul Koning  wrote:

>
>
> > On Apr 25, 2023, at 9:25 AM, KenUnix via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >
> > Rod,
> >
> > Never heard the singing. Switch room's were too noisy.
> >
> > It always amazed me that those core planes were hand wired. I guess by
> > little people. Or, big people with little hands.
>
> People (often women I think) with steady hands.  I think the setup used a
> work surface with notches in it corresponding to the positions of each
> core.  They would pour a cup full of cores onto that and use gentle shaking
> and vibrating to get all those notches filled, then pour off the excess.
> Next, threading the cores much like you thread a needle -- except that the
> wire is stiffer than thread and thus easier to make it go straight through.
>
> One wonders if this could have been done by machine.  Probably yes, but
> given the volumes involved I suppose the capital investment wasn't
> justified.
>
> The more amazing kind of hand-wired core is core ROM, where the wires
> weave in and out of various cores according to the required bit pattern.
> Getting that right seems like a far more complicated craft.
>
> paul
>
>
>

-- 
End of line
JOB TERMINATED Okey Dokey

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[geneb via cctalk]

On Tue, 25 Apr 2023, Tom Hunter via cctalk wrote:


Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
firesale of the assets.
AFAIK, it's a 503(c), and I suspect if they started to "fire sale" assets, 
lawsuits from folks that made significant donations would be inbound.


I say we sell his sister for science experiments and use the proceeds to 
re-open the museum.


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

[cctalk] Re: flipchip cleaning and pin corrosion inhibition

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Apr 25, 2023, at 9:25 AM, KenUnix via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> Rod,
> 
> Never heard the singing. Switch room's were too noisy.
> 
> It always amazed me that those core planes were hand wired. I guess by
> little people. Or, big people with little hands.

People (often women I think) with steady hands.  I think the setup used a work 
surface with notches in it corresponding to the positions of each core.  They 
would pour a cup full of cores onto that and use gentle shaking and vibrating 
to get all those notches filled, then pour off the excess.  Next, threading the 
cores much like you thread a needle -- except that the wire is stiffer than 
thread and thus easier to make it go straight through.

One wonders if this could have been done by machine.  Probably yes, but given 
the volumes involved I suppose the capital investment wasn't justified.

The more amazing kind of hand-wired core is core ROM, where the wires weave in 
and out of various cores according to the required bit pattern.  Getting that 
right seems like a far more complicated craft.

paul

[cctalk] Re: flipchip cleaning and pin corrosion inhibition

[Rod Bartlett via cctalk]

Ken,

Core places being hand wired amazed me as well.  The maintenance panels on the 
Honeywell mainframes were hand wired as well.  They were works of art with lots 
of toggle switches and lights (the later models switched to LEDs).  I could see 
most of the internal registers using a fancy scroll wheel to select what 
register the lights should show.  I could also enter small diagnostic programs 
and single step through them using the panel.

Most of our core memories were 256K of 36 bit words (with a few spares for each 
location).  They took up lots of floor space.  I suspect the fact that the 
power supplies had to drive that much equipment was what made them sing.

 - Rod

> On Apr 25, 2023, at 9:25 AM, KenUnix via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> Rod,
> 
> Never heard the singing. Switch room's were too noisy.
> 
> It always amazed me that those core planes were hand wired. I guess by
> little people. Or, big people with little hands.
> 
> On the PDP 8/I they were 4K plug in affairs.
> 
> Ken
> 
> 
> On Tue, Apr 25, 2023, 9:14 AM Rod Bartlett via cctalk 
> wrote:
> 
>> Ken,
>> 
>> This discussion does my geezer's heart good.
>> 
>> I used to maintain Honeywell mainframes in the late 1970s, some of which
>> had core memories.  Tapping them on the floor wasn't an option since they
>> were such huge beasties but they did have space for spare bits.  I've
>> swapped to the spare bits or replaced sense amps to fix many a core
>> problem.  Something I'll never forget is the way the power supplies "sang"
>> when running memory diagnostics on the core units.  I could always tell the
>> diagnostic was done when the singing stopped.
>> 
>> - Rod
>> 
>>> On Apr 24, 2023, at 2:11 PM, KenUnix via cctalk 
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> David,
>>> 
>>> I could tell you I had an experience where I had a stuck bit in core
>> memory.
>>> 
>>> It was in a trunk frame in a #2ESS AIS.
>>> 
>>> I removed the core package and tapped it on the floor, reinserted it and
>>> the trouble cleared.
>>> 
>>> Sticky bit! Ha
>>> 
>>> I only knew that because it happened to me on my old PDP-8/I..
>>> 
>>> Ken
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 1:50 PM David Gesswein via cctalk <
>>> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>>> 
 On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 11:11:35AM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> On 23/04/2023 22:52, KenUnix via cctalk wrote:
>> Pete,
>> 
>> Did the 8E have core or solid state memory?
> 
> It had both, but I didn't put the core boards in the dishwasher.  I
 figured
> they might be too delicate for that, so I rinsed them by hand in the
 kitchen
> sink.
> 
> I should have said that in my original post.
> 
 
 I assume your referring to the core electronics boards and didn't wash
>> the
 core plane.
 
 I've never used the dishwasher. I've hand washed R, W, G and M type
>> boards
 in
 sink with dish soap and soft bristle brush, rinsed, then blew off with
 air compressor, then finish dry with fan. For pots and other
 components that I wasn't sure how well they were sealed I used damp
>> brush
 or
 cloth around them. Rest got dunked. No obvious issues from washing.
 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> End of line
>>> JOB TERMINATED Okey Dokey
>> 
>> 

[cctalk] Re: flipchip cleaning and pin corrosion inhibition

[KenUnix via cctalk]

Rod,

Never heard the singing. Switch room's were too noisy.

It always amazed me that those core planes were hand wired. I guess by
little people. Or, big people with little hands.

On the PDP 8/I they were 4K plug in affairs.

Ken


On Tue, Apr 25, 2023, 9:14 AM Rod Bartlett via cctalk 
wrote:

> Ken,
>
> This discussion does my geezer's heart good.
>
> I used to maintain Honeywell mainframes in the late 1970s, some of which
> had core memories.  Tapping them on the floor wasn't an option since they
> were such huge beasties but they did have space for spare bits.  I've
> swapped to the spare bits or replaced sense amps to fix many a core
> problem.  Something I'll never forget is the way the power supplies "sang"
> when running memory diagnostics on the core units.  I could always tell the
> diagnostic was done when the singing stopped.
>
> - Rod
>
> > On Apr 24, 2023, at 2:11 PM, KenUnix via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >
> > David,
> >
> > I could tell you I had an experience where I had a stuck bit in core
> memory.
> >
> > It was in a trunk frame in a #2ESS AIS.
> >
> > I removed the core package and tapped it on the floor, reinserted it and
> > the trouble cleared.
> >
> > Sticky bit! Ha
> >
> > I only knew that because it happened to me on my old PDP-8/I..
> >
> > Ken
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 1:50 PM David Gesswein via cctalk <
> > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 11:11:35AM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote:
> >>> On 23/04/2023 22:52, KenUnix via cctalk wrote:
>  Pete,
> 
>  Did the 8E have core or solid state memory?
> >>>
> >>> It had both, but I didn't put the core boards in the dishwasher.  I
> >> figured
> >>> they might be too delicate for that, so I rinsed them by hand in the
> >> kitchen
> >>> sink.
> >>>
> >>> I should have said that in my original post.
> >>>
> >>
> >> I assume your referring to the core electronics boards and didn't wash
> the
> >> core plane.
> >>
> >> I've never used the dishwasher. I've hand washed R, W, G and M type
> boards
> >> in
> >> sink with dish soap and soft bristle brush, rinsed, then blew off with
> >> air compressor, then finish dry with fan. For pots and other
> >> components that I wasn't sure how well they were sealed I used damp
> brush
> >> or
> >> cloth around them. Rest got dunked. No obvious issues from washing.
> >>
> >
> >
> > --
> > End of line
> > JOB TERMINATED Okey Dokey
>
>

[cctalk] Re: flipchip cleaning and pin corrosion inhibition

[Rod Bartlett via cctalk]

Ken,

This discussion does my geezer's heart good.

I used to maintain Honeywell mainframes in the late 1970s, some of which had 
core memories.  Tapping them on the floor wasn't an option since they were such 
huge beasties but they did have space for spare bits.  I've swapped to the 
spare bits or replaced sense amps to fix many a core problem.  Something I'll 
never forget is the way the power supplies "sang" when running memory 
diagnostics on the core units.  I could always tell the diagnostic was done 
when the singing stopped.

- Rod

> On Apr 24, 2023, at 2:11 PM, KenUnix via cctalk  wrote:
> 
> David,
> 
> I could tell you I had an experience where I had a stuck bit in core memory.
> 
> It was in a trunk frame in a #2ESS AIS.
> 
> I removed the core package and tapped it on the floor, reinserted it and
> the trouble cleared.
> 
> Sticky bit! Ha
> 
> I only knew that because it happened to me on my old PDP-8/I..
> 
> Ken
> 
> 
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 1:50 PM David Gesswein via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 11:11:35AM +0100, Pete Turnbull wrote:
>>> On 23/04/2023 22:52, KenUnix via cctalk wrote:
 Pete,
 
 Did the 8E have core or solid state memory?
>>> 
>>> It had both, but I didn't put the core boards in the dishwasher.  I
>> figured
>>> they might be too delicate for that, so I rinsed them by hand in the
>> kitchen
>>> sink.
>>> 
>>> I should have said that in my original post.
>>> 
>> 
>> I assume your referring to the core electronics boards and didn't wash the
>> core plane.
>> 
>> I've never used the dishwasher. I've hand washed R, W, G and M type boards
>> in
>> sink with dish soap and soft bristle brush, rinsed, then blew off with
>> air compressor, then finish dry with fan. For pots and other
>> components that I wasn't sure how well they were sealed I used damp brush
>> or
>> cloth around them. Rest got dunked. No obvious issues from washing.
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> End of line
> JOB TERMINATED Okey Dokey

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Apr 25, 2023, at 2:16 AM, Tom Hunter via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
> firesale of the assets.
> Otherwise a lot of donors and contributors would be rightfully upset - me
> included.

I know of at least one donor who realized his mistake years ago, and wishes he 
had lent his collection to the museum rather than donating it.  That's not 
foolproof (a museum may not exercise due care) but at least you don't have to 
worry about the museum, or some heir, deciding to trash the stuff.

paul

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

...had the opportunity?Tell us more!

Sent from AOL on Android 
 
  On Tue, Apr 25, 2023 at 12:39 AM, Sellam Abraham via 
cctalk wrote:   Little old Billy G?

lol, like he gives a shit. He's too busy selling his snake oil and figuring
out ways to turn bugs and chemicals into your next meal.

I literally should have strangled him to death when I had the opportunity.

Sellam

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 11:17 PM Tom Hunter via cctalk 
wrote:

> Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
> firesale of the assets.
> Otherwise a lot of donors and contributors would be rightfully upset - me
> included.
> I am disappointed that Bill Gates hasn't bought it already to continue
> Paul's vision.
> Tom
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 11:30 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > On 4/24/23 03:18, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
> > > On 24/04/2023 06:45, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:
> > >> Bad link  Zane I get a weird  screen from the timeEd#
> > >
> > > Delete the strange character after the last "/" and it will work:
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/after-3-years-flying-heritage-museum-to-reopen-in-everett/
> >
> > As I understand the situation, Jody, Paul's sister, is the named
> > executor for Paul's assets.  I've read that his instructions were to
> > sell off most of the assets and donate the proceeds to charity.  In
> > other words, the LCM will be sold; whether or not it remains intact is a
> > decision made by the purchaser.
> >
> >
> > --Chuck
> >
> >
> >
>
  

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Sellam Abraham via cctalk]

Little old Billy G?

lol, like he gives a shit. He's too busy selling his snake oil and figuring
out ways to turn bugs and chemicals into your next meal.

I literally should have strangled him to death when I had the opportunity.

Sellam

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023, 11:17 PM Tom Hunter via cctalk 
wrote:

> Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
> firesale of the assets.
> Otherwise a lot of donors and contributors would be rightfully upset - me
> included.
> I am disappointed that Bill Gates hasn't bought it already to continue
> Paul's vision.
> Tom
>
> On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 11:30 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> > On 4/24/23 03:18, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
> > > On 24/04/2023 06:45, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:
> > >> Bad link  Zane I get a weird  screen from the timeEd#
> > >
> > > Delete the strange character after the last "/" and it will work:
> > >
> > >
> >
> https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/after-3-years-flying-heritage-museum-to-reopen-in-everett/
> >
> > As I understand the situation, Jody, Paul's sister, is the named
> > executor for Paul's assets.  I've read that his instructions were to
> > sell off most of the assets and donate the proceeds to charity.  In
> > other words, the LCM will be sold; whether or not it remains intact is a
> > decision made by the purchaser.
> >
> >
> > --Chuck
> >
> >
> >
>

[cctalk] Re: One of Paul Allen's Museums

[Tom Hunter via cctalk]

Hopefully the LCM will be sold as a going concern rather than just a
firesale of the assets.
Otherwise a lot of donors and contributors would be rightfully upset - me
included.
I am disappointed that Bill Gates hasn't bought it already to continue
Paul's vision.
Tom

On Mon, Apr 24, 2023 at 11:30 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 4/24/23 03:18, Pete Turnbull via cctalk wrote:
> > On 24/04/2023 06:45, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:
> >> Bad link  Zane I get a weird  screen from the timeEd#
> >
> > Delete the strange character after the last "/" and it will work:
> >
> >
> https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/after-3-years-flying-heritage-museum-to-reopen-in-everett/
>
> As I understand the situation, Jody, Paul's sister, is the named
> executor for Paul's assets.  I've read that his instructions were to
> sell off most of the assets and donate the proceeds to charity.  In
> other words, the LCM will be sold; whether or not it remains intact is a
> decision made by the purchaser.
>
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>