[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On 5/22/23 15:13, Tom Ivar Helbekkmo via cctalk wrote: > Fred Cisin via cctalk writes: > >> Unfortunately, the ability to handle single-density (FM) reading and >> writing correctly IS one that some machines can; some can't. > > For what it's worth, the Adaptec AHA-1542B SCSI controller contains a > fully capable floppy interface as per the original IBM specification. That's a real NSC DP8473 or a clone of it. You can often find the same chip on Future Domain cwell-ontrollers as well as DTC ones as well some Ultrastor ones What's not known, is that with a simple jumper, a 2-drive controller can be changed to a 3 drive one (on the same cable). Both Ultrastor and DTC documented the 3-drive cable, but Adaptec and Future Domain never did. FWOW the 8473 in it's PLCC incarnation is fully capable of directly driving four floppies. Bitsavers even has a datasheet on the 4-drive capability in a PC-AT: http://www.bitsavers.org/components/national/_dataSheets/DP8473/AN-631_Design_Guide_for_DP8473_in_a_PC-AT_Dec89.pdf Another tidbit is the Micro Solutions Backpack floppy with parallel port interface uses the 8473 and even has a configuration EEPROM to track 4 drives. The interface supports low-level hardware control. Some years ago, I even published the source to a driver for the thing on VCFed. I'm sure that it's been lost in the mists of time, however; VCF has lost a lot of content over the years. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
Fred Cisin via cctalk writes: > Unfortunately, the ability to handle single-density (FM) reading and > writing correctly IS one that some machines can; some can't. For what it's worth, the Adaptec AHA-1542B SCSI controller contains a fully capable floppy interface as per the original IBM specification. -tih -- Most people who graduate with CS degrees don't understand the significance of Lisp. Lisp is the most important idea in computer science. --Alan Kay
[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On 5/22/23 13:49, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > Unfortunately, the ability to handle single-density (FM) reading and > writing correctly IS one that some machines can; some can't. > > Although the 765 would have been capable of it, the 5150 FDC disabled > that capability. It is available on only SOME implementations. Another can/can't is formatting and writing disks with 128 byte MFM sectoring. The National Semi DP8473 is one that can do both (FM and 128 byte MFM). Curiously, it's late P3 and P4 motherboard systems that have the best track record for this. However, Intel was not a leader in this department. The original 82077 FDC could handle FM just fine, but the later 82077AA-1 could not. When I brought this issue up to Intel applications engineering, the response was "So--who needs FM in this day and age?" Fortunately, the pin-compatible NSC PC8477 retained the FM capability. I recall when Micro Solutions recalled a run of their CompatiCard IV controllers with the 82077AA-1 controllers and replaced the chips wit the National ones. SMSC SuperIO chips have a pretty good record in this matter. --Chuck
[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 10:40, Tony Duell wrote: I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons. And of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to be able to test it before I buy it On Mon, 22 May 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: This is a normal ability for a machine of the 486 era, I think. Unfortunately, the ability to handle single-density (FM) reading and writing correctly IS one that some machines can; some can't. Although the 765 would have been capable of it, the 5150 FDC disabled that capability. It is available on only SOME implementations. Dave Dunfield wrote a small test program tocheck for FM/SD compatability.
[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On 5/22/2023 11:25 AM, js--- via cctalk wrote: Hehe, I chuckled. I have such a machine (triple boot, DOS, Windows, Linux) PII sitting here that used to be my primary machine (hand built from cheap parts at the old Omaha, NE monthly computer show), no eBay needed. Machine does not get a lot of use anymore, but it fires right up when needed. Jim -- Jim Brain br...@jbrain.com www.jbrain.com
[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
Thia is a good place to start
http://vintagecomputer.net/disk_images/index.cfm. from here there are two
complete how-to docs, software and images.
Bill
On Mon, May 22, 2023, 12:30 PM js--- via cctalk
wrote:
> On 5/22/2023 5:38 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
> >>> I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2
> desktop
> >>> with floppies and USB", and replace my suggestion with:
> >>> "a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use.
> >> Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from
> >> the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and
> >> dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like
> >> Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases.
> > I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons.
>
>
> It is, however, a viable suggestion, and that is better than none :)
>
>
> > The first problem is finding such a machine in known-working
> > condition. Second-hand computer shops are few and far between and
> > generally don't trade in machines that old. Similarly pawnbrokers
> > ('Cash Converters' and the like) don't deal in them.
>
>
> Don't they have eBay where you live?
>
>
> > ...
> > And of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I
> > certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and
> > writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to
> > be able to test it before I buy it.
>
> I wouldn't worry about the built in disk controller. You can add the
> functionality you need with an Adaptec SCSI controller w/ floppy.
>
>
> > Next there's the problem of me getting it home. I don't drive. I'll go
> > on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually
> > want. An PC is not in that category. Not to mention the fact that I
> > doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go.
> > Having it sent to me is inconvenient and I am not sure the machine
> > would survive. Not to mention it would cost more than the machine is
> > worth.
>
>
> Why do you need a monitor and keyboard?And since you don't drive,
> again, have you heard of eBay?
>
>
>
> > Then there's the problem of keeping it going.
>
>
> Why do I not have this problem?Keeping *anything* going, even our
> own bodies, is always a "problem."
>
>
> > I realise that spare ICs always were unobtainium. But replacement
> > modules -- disk drives, motherboards, etc are no longer made or easily
> > available. I have no PCI cards in my collection at all. No ATX power
> > supplies. I might be able to find a VGA monitor but that's pushing it.
>
>
> Then why even get up in the morning, if you're resigned to doom before
> even trying? All of these things can be obtained.. EASILY. A VGA
> monitor is NOT a challenge.
>
> > And drives. It was suggested that I get a double 5.25"/3.5" drive.
> > Err, no. The 5.25" is going to be 80 cylinder (to handle 1.2M disks)
> > which means writing to 40 cylinder disks is a bad idea.
>
>
> I use a 5.25" HD drive for 80 cylinder use, and simply plug in a 360k
> drive when needed.
>
>
> > And I am not sure the software exists to do what I want on such a
> > machine. I don't want to have to write it myself!
>
> Such software probably does exist. If someone has had the same need,
> then it's been done.
>
>
>
>
>
[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On 5/22/2023 5:38 AM, Tony Duell via cctalk wrote:
I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 desktop
with floppies and USB", and replace my suggestion with:
"a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use.
Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from
the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and
dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like
Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases.
I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons.
It is, however, a viable suggestion, and that is better than none :)
The first problem is finding such a machine in known-working
condition. Second-hand computer shops are few and far between and
generally don't trade in machines that old. Similarly pawnbrokers
('Cash Converters' and the like) don't deal in them.
Don't they have eBay where you live?
...
And of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I
certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and
writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to
be able to test it before I buy it.
I wouldn't worry about the built in disk controller. You can add the
functionality you need with an Adaptec SCSI controller w/ floppy.
Next there's the problem of me getting it home. I don't drive. I'll go
on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually
want. An PC is not in that category. Not to mention the fact that I
doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go.
Having it sent to me is inconvenient and I am not sure the machine
would survive. Not to mention it would cost more than the machine is
worth.
Why do you need a monitor and keyboard? And since you don't drive,
again, have you heard of eBay?
Then there's the problem of keeping it going.
Why do I not have this problem? Keeping *anything* going, even our
own bodies, is always a "problem."
I realise that spare ICs always were unobtainium. But replacement
modules -- disk drives, motherboards, etc are no longer made or easily
available. I have no PCI cards in my collection at all. No ATX power
supplies. I might be able to find a VGA monitor but that's pushing it.
Then why even get up in the morning, if you're resigned to doom before
even trying? All of these things can be obtained.. EASILY. A VGA
monitor is NOT a challenge.
And drives. It was suggested that I get a double 5.25"/3.5" drive.
Err, no. The 5.25" is going to be 80 cylinder (to handle 1.2M disks)
which means writing to 40 cylinder disks is a bad idea.
I use a 5.25" HD drive for 80 cylinder use, and simply plug in a 360k
drive when needed.
And I am not sure the software exists to do what I want on such a
machine. I don't want to have to write it myself!
Such software probably does exist. If someone has had the same need,
then it's been done.
[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
I learned a long time ago that it's a waste of time to trying to help someone who, instead of focusing on solutions, just comes up with endless reasons why your suggestions won't work. Sellam On Mon, May 22, 2023, 6:14 AM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 10:40, Tony Duell wrote: > > > > I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons. > > I forgot whom I was dealing with. > > > > I am not sure I > > would want to trust something from an unknown seller on the web. > > That is unreasonable, IMHO, but it is on-brand. > > > And > > of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I > > certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and > > writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to > > be able to test it before I buy it > > This is a normal ability for a machine of the 486 era, I think. > > > Next there's the problem of me getting it home. I don't drive. > > Neither did I when I lived in the UK. > > I picked up PCs from various points in South London by simply > bungeeing them onto the luggage rack of my bicycle. > > Monitors, I carried on public transport a few times. Easy now that > flatscreens are the rule. The last one I bought, in September, I > carried across Prague for over 1h on bus, metro and tram, in a > backpack, while also pushing my then 3YO daughter in a pram... and > that is a big 27" screen, too. > > > I'll go > > on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually > > want. An PC is not in that category. > > I am sorry but that is simply rude, and in context, it is adding an > insult to the prior insult. If you want the ability, get off your > backside. If you don't, then suffer in silence. Don't call people > stupid and then add "that is stupid because I can't be bothered." > > > > Not to mention the fact that I > > doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go. > > Why would you have to? Who said you did? Nobody. You made this up, > then called me stupid for words you put in my mouth. > > > Having it sent to me is inconvenient > > Nonsense. The bulk of commerce these days is mail order because it is > *more* convenient. > > > Then there's the problem of keeping it going. > > Who said you had to? Nobody. > > But you said it was not of interest. If it fails, replace it. Problem > solved. > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 >
[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On Mon, 22 May 2023 at 10:40, Tony Duell wrote: > > I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons. I forgot whom I was dealing with. > > I am not sure I > would want to trust something from an unknown seller on the web. That is unreasonable, IMHO, but it is on-brand. > And > of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I > certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and > writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to > be able to test it before I buy it This is a normal ability for a machine of the 486 era, I think. > Next there's the problem of me getting it home. I don't drive. Neither did I when I lived in the UK. I picked up PCs from various points in South London by simply bungeeing them onto the luggage rack of my bicycle. Monitors, I carried on public transport a few times. Easy now that flatscreens are the rule. The last one I bought, in September, I carried across Prague for over 1h on bus, metro and tram, in a backpack, while also pushing my then 3YO daughter in a pram... and that is a big 27" screen, too. > I'll go > on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually > want. An PC is not in that category. I am sorry but that is simply rude, and in context, it is adding an insult to the prior insult. If you want the ability, get off your backside. If you don't, then suffer in silence. Don't call people stupid and then add "that is stupid because I can't be bothered." > Not to mention the fact that I > doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go. Why would you have to? Who said you did? Nobody. You made this up, then called me stupid for words you put in my mouth. > Having it sent to me is inconvenient Nonsense. The bulk of commerce these days is mail order because it is *more* convenient. > Then there's the problem of keeping it going. Who said you had to? Nobody. But you said it was not of interest. If it fails, replace it. Problem solved. -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: Getting floppy images to/from real floppy disks.
On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 12:22 PM Liam Proven via cctalk
wrote:
>
> On Fri, 19 May 2023 at 23:40, Fred Cisin via cctalk
> wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, 19 May 2023, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> > > I do remember that, because I carried around a USB key with an
> >
> > Thanks, everybody for the reminders of the Windoze history.
>
> ;-)
> >
> > I hereby formally retract my erroneous suggestion of a "386 98,SP2 desktop
> > with floppies and USB",
> > and replace my suggestion with:
> > "a PC with USB and floppies", and let Tony decide what vintage to use.
>
> Fully concur. If it were me, I'd probably suggest some box with from
> the end of the era which came with an onboard floppy controller, and
> dual-boot 98SE and some old Linux that can handle such a thing, like
> Slackware or Debian. That would cover the most bases.
>
I am sorry, but I think this is a stupid suggestion for many reasons.
The first problem is finding such a machine in known-working
condition. Second-hand computer shops are few and far between and
generally don't trade in machines that old. Similarly pawnbrokers
('Cash Converters' and the like) don't deal in them. I am not sure I
would want to trust something from an unknown seller on the web. And
of course it has to have the right type of disk controller, I
certainly need to be able to handle single-density (FM) reading and
writing correctly. Some machines can, some can't. I am hardly going to
be able to test it before I buy it
Next there's the problem of me getting it home. I don't drive. I'll go
on public transport for things that interest me and which I actually
want. An PC is not in that category. Not to mention the fact that I
doubt I could carry the system box, monitor and keyboard in one go.
Having it sent to me is inconvenient and I am not sure the machine
would survive. Not to mention it would cost more than the machine is
worth.
Then there's the problem of keeping it going. It's not a PERQ :-) I
realise that spare ICs always were unobtainium. But replacement
modules -- disk drives, motherboards, etc are no longer made or easily
available. I have no PCI cards in my collection at all. No ATX power
supplies. I might be able to find a VGA monitor but that's pushing it.
And of course no documentation. At least the Greaseweazle is
open-source which is better than nothing.
And drives. It was suggested that I get a double 5.25"/3.5" drive.
Err, no. The 5.25" is going to be 80 cylinder (to handle 1.2M disks)
which means writing to 40 cylinder disks is a bad idea.
And I am not sure the software exists to do what I want on such a
machine. I don't want to have to write it myself!
-tony
