Updates to the Dick Smith System 80 site

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Apologies for cross-posting. I've added a few new bits and pieces to the
Dick Smith System 80 site.  If anyone is interested, take a look at the
first three entries under this link.

https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/whats_new.htm

Incidentally, this month is somewhat of a milestone. It's 20 years since
the site went live!

Terry Stewart (Tez)

Re: The Retro Search is back up

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>>On Apr 1, 2019, at 7:11 PM, Kevin Parker via cctalk 
wrote:
>>
>>This will mostly interest TRS-80 enthusiasts on this list.
>>
>> Check it out at theretrosearch.com
>>

>Thank you for this, Kevin!

This is awesome Kevin!

Terry

More recovered Exidy Sorcerer software

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Hi,

Merry Xmas and Happy New Year (or Happy Holidays if that is your flavour),

Just to note to those interested in the Exidy Sorcerer.  I've added 18 more
programs to the Sorcerer archive at
https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-01-23-software-for-real-sorcerers.htm
.  To see what they are, check out the updates section at the bottom of the
page.

Most of the originals were provided by Al Kossow.  Paul van der Spek
provided Military Encounter, Munch! and Sorcerer Invaders (thanks guys!)

Enjoy

Tez

A New Zealand-based early '80s microcomputer retailer talks about his experience

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

This won't be of interest to everyone, but if you want to hear what it was
like to open and run a microcomputer store in New Zealand back in the early
1980s, it's captured here.
https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-08-23-viscount-electronics.htm

Terry (Tez)

Re: 8 inch floppies, decaying

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Just my experience,  I once did a trial where I took two identical 5,25
inch disks of the same batch from the same manufacturer.  These were clean
disks which both formatted and verified just fine, but I wanted to see if
IPA did indeed damage the disk.

One I swabbed one with 75% IPA, the other with warm water with a touch of
dishwashing liquid.

On checking the IPA swabbed disk now showed a few damaged sectors.  The
water/detergent one did not.

It's not scientific (just one rep) and I was quite aggressive with the
wiping.  However, it made me steer away from IPA.  Immersing the platters
in warm water with a touch of detergent, and gently wiping (then air
drying) works well for me when cleaning "dirty disks".

Terry (Tez)

On Wed, Jul 11, 2018 at 8:17 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Fred asked
> > What concentration of IPA were you using?
>
> 99% Laboratory grade. Not very pleasant to have on the skin, it dries it
> out shockingly.
>
> > There might be a difference in results between 70% and 91%
> >
> > There might also even be a difference in the oxide formulation between
> > brands.  (If Chuck was trying to clean a Wabash, then it might dissolve
> > right through the plastic.)
>
> I've had Computer Resources, Wabash and other cheap diskettes long ago,
> they were
> none too good. Verbatim and Dysan always seemed pretty reliable for me.
>
>

An NTSC Atari looks good on a PAL TV. How come?

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Hi,

The PAL vrs NTSC TV standard complicated things when collecting home
computers from other countries.

In New Zealand we are on PAL.  PAL Atari 800s are rarer in the world that
NTSC ones.  That being the case I recently settled on an NTSC one for my
collection.  Hooking it up to a couple of my PAL TVs (via composite video)
I was surprised to see a reasonable colour image.  I then dropped in a UAV
video enhancement board and was surprised to see a very good colour image!

I'm assuming it's because composite input into "relatively" modern can
handle NTSC and PAL?  Is this a reasonable thought?  The UAV is not an NTSC
converter, and even the inventor was surprised this worked.

Those interested can read about the adventure here:
https://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-03-06-Converting%20-NTSC-Atari-800-for-PAL-using-UAV.htm

Terry (Tez)

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

 >Sure. Neither would I. But how is this relevant to the CHWiki question?

>> If I had to go to that extent of writing it as a robust, referenced,
>> refereed, definitive technical article, I probably wouldn't bother.

If I was writing an article as a contributor for a reference wiki, I
wouldn't want to contribute anything less than that kind of article.
If the reference wiki is happy to accept blog postings then I'd prefer to
write for my own site, for the reason's outlined.

Terry (Tez)

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Given that my article started this discussion, I should add my 2 cents
worth.


I’ll continue to do what I’m doing rather than putting this stuff on CHWiki.
Grant’s motivations and explanations for posting on his site are pretty
much the same as mine.  I document these things largely for myself as an
“activity record”, but I hope others also find them useful and can learn
from what I have done.  A personal style is used,..usually narrative… and
articles usually contain reflections etc.   Where some advice is given, it
is something that has worked for me, and the text does not always cover all
options (or their pros and cons), or contain references.



I tend to share the link around the groups I belong to once the article is
complete in case it's relevant to someone.  Not everyone will read it of
course but I figure that if there is a glaring omission, or something that
is just plain wrong, someone will comment and I'll amend the text.  All the
articles allow comments, so people can add their own
thoughts/corrections/extensions if they want to.



If I had to go to that extent of writing it as a robust, referenced,
refereed, definitive technical article, I probably wouldn’t bother.  I am
not at all diminishing the usefulness of such a document on some aspect of
vintage computing…that stuff is often gold and I applaud people for doing
it.  It’s just I don’t have the time, motivation (or often the deep
expertise in the subject matter) to do it.   For me, vintage computing is a
hobby, and these articles are a creative outlet.  I do enough technical
writing in my real job as an academic in the agricultural sciences.  Maybe
when I'm retired



 >Maybe it's silly, but I view my site as somewhat of it's own brand
>(as minimal ~> non-existent as it may be) and I use it as my own reference.



It is not silly…and actually, that is quite an honest reflection.  I like
to add articles to “Tezza’s blog” when I complete an activity.  It keeps
these articles together, people can see what I do, and the kind of things I
am interested it.


Google captures the pages, although it can take a few weeks for them to
appear in searches. I am confident most people could find them with
well-thought out search terms.  The pages are easily linked and shared with
Facebook etc.  Personally I never use wikis etc, when looking for
information.  I always use a search engine.  I usually find what I want.  I
suspect 99% of people do this.  Sometimes the search engine points me to a
wiki of course.



Posting under my own domain does allow a great deal of control, as opposed
to contributing to another site.  It means you can change the style if you
want, add advertisements (I don’t intend to) and add bits and pieces which
may facilitate social media and sharing.  A couple of years ago I revamped
the whole site so it would be mobile friendly.



Like Grant, I have no objection to anyone linking to the site or
amending/adding what I’ve done (with appropriate citation).  We all stand
on the shoulders of others.



Terry (Tez)

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

 >That link mentions ExittoDOS.pif, and searches for it turn up related
information about dosstart.bat.
>I'd suggest digging around for them and some web searches.

Hmm..interesting.

>From a brief search and a test it seems using these files (or at least ones
similar to those described) may have allowed use of the MS-DOS drivers in
MS-DOS 7.1 but only AFTER a reboot from the GUI.  According to this..

http://madsenworld.dk/con_auto/index-uk.htm#dosstart

..dosstart.bat seems to be used when you EXIT from Windows and reboot to
DOS, rather than the start of a boot.  .

As to ExittoDOS.pif, this doesn't seem to exist on a Windows 98SE install.
What does exist are three PIF files called Dosprmpt, MSDOS mode for games
and MSDOS modes for games with EMS and XMS support.  I found you can edit a
config.sys and autoexec.bat box as part of the program's properties.
HOWEVER, these configs only seem to take effect with exiting Windows from
"Shut Down" --> "Restart in MSDOS mode".  I can't see anywhere how you can
use these BEFORE the GUI is loaded.  Certainly going straight to the
command line doesn't load them. What IS loaded when you do that is what's
ever in the existing config.sys and autoexec.bat.

As I don't want to waste time loading the GUI first, I'll stick with what
I've done.  It works and is quite efficient...but it does seem strange
there is no built-in facility to select an alternative Config.sys and
autoexec.bat if the user is going straight for the built in CLI on boot?
You would think that would be an obvious need.  It's always possible I
might have overlooked something, although I did spend a fair amount of time
in the search, and testing various permutations.

Terry (Tez)







On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 5:58 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/07/2018 09:53 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk wrote:
>
>> According to the following link from IBM, the process we are both
>> thinking of is valid, just using different files.
>>
>> http://ps-2.kev009.com/pcpartnerinfo/ctstips/c546.htm
>>
>
> That link mentions ExittoDOS.pif, and searches for it turn up related
> information about dosstart.bat.
>
> I'd suggest digging around for them and some web searches.
>
> I don't currently have a 9x (V)M to test things on.
>
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>I recall using these drivers several years ago.

>As I recall, the problem is that they're not amenable to hot-swapping.
>That is, is you're using a USB flash drive with them, there was no code
>that allowed you to remove the drive and substitute another without
>rebooting.

>Has this situation changed?

Good question Chuck.  Certainly the Windows 98SE one allows hot swapping if
you "stop" the drive but I haven't tried swapping with the MS-DOS ones.  I
would doubt it as there is no facility in MS-DOS I know to "unmount" one
and recognise another separately from driver load on boot.

Fortunately this functionality isn't important to me as I ever only use the
USB sticks to file transfer so one per sitting is all I need.

Terry (Tez)

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

 >I thought there were alternate config.sys and autoexec.bat files that
were used if you chose to reboot to MS-DOS mode, and possibly if you hit F8
and chose command line during boot.

Yes, the files you speak of are config.dos and autoexec.dos.  These
confused me at first because I thought just as you did. I put the driver
files in there. However, those files seem to be associated with the
PREVIOUS MS-DOS version (if one exists) prior to installation of Windows
98, NOT the CLI of Windows 98 (MS-DOS 7.1).  There is an option when
starting Windows 98 to boot to an earlier version of MS-DOS.  If this
earlier version is selected, then config.dos and autoexec.dos are read and
processed as config.sys and autoexec.bat for the DOS boot.  Otherwise, if
booting the Windows 98 (MS-DOS 7.1) CLI, these files are ignored and only
autoexec.bat and config.sys (if they exist) are processed.

Initially, I thought booting to the previous DOS install (in my case MS-DOS
6.2) would solve the USB problem, and I simply called up the older DOS
(MS-DOS 6.2) with the drivers using those *.dos files.  However, I was then
crippled by only being able to use a USB drive with FAT16 and a small
capacity.  I needed an MS-DOS 7.1 environment to give me FAT 32 hence the
config.sys "menu" system.

Terry (Tez)









On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 4:20 PM, Grant Taylor via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 02/06/2018 12:58 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
>
>> The title might suggest to topic is not vintage, but the reason I did
>> this myself was to facilitate classic computer disk imaging.
>>
>
> I'd think that something from ~20 years ago is indeed vintage.  (It's
> closer to the 25 year old requirement for cards to be vintage, than not.)
> Just not quite as vintage as some of the other topics on cctalk.
>
> I’ve recently given USB drive capability to the MS-DOS 7.1 environment in
>> a Windows 98SE computer I use for the purpose above. It was a bit of work
>> configuring the machine to ensure both the MS-DOS drivers and the Windows
>> 98SE drivers co-existed peacefully.
>>
>
> Intriguing.
>
> I figured that such was possible, but I've never tried.
>
> I'm no  Windows 98 guru (or MS-DOS guru for that matter) so it may not be
>> the most efficient or elegant of solutions.   However, it worked for me.
>> That being the case I thought I’d document what I did.
>>
>
> I thought there were alternate config.sys and autoexec.bat files that were
> used if you chose to reboot to MS-DOS mode, and possibly if you hit F8 and
> chose command line during boot.
>
> Quick Google searches make me think that the MS-DOS mode files are named
> config.dos and autoexec.dos.  Then Windows will rename them when you select
> reboot into MS-DOS mode.
>
> Hopefully the article will be useful to others who might want to do this.
>>
>> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-02-05-USB-in-M
>> S-DOS-and-Win98.htm
>>
>
> Thank you for sharing.
>
> I'm filing that away for future use.
>
>
>
> --
> Grant. . . .
> unix || die
>

Re: How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 9:28 AM, Curious Marc  wrote:

> Thanks Terry, I need to get my DOS7.1/Win98 Dolch to speak USB, that will
> be helpful, particularly the DOS portion. I got my Win98 networked to Win7,
> it's not that hard *once you know* and works really well. You have to
> change one entry in the Win7 registry and add one package from the
> unofficial Win98 service pack. If I find my notes I'll post them here.
> Marc
>

 Thanks Marc,

I probably won't attempt networking again (I did once), as I don't have a
crossover cable and it's very convenient just to use the flash drive.  It
would be good to know how to do it though and I'm sure other would
appreciate that info.

Cheers

Terry

>
>

How to enable USB drives in both Windows 98SE AND MS-DOS 7.1.

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

The title might suggest to topic is not vintage, but the reason I did this
myself was to facilitate classic computer disk imaging.

I’ve recently given USB drive capability to the MS-DOS 7.1 environment in a
Windows 98SE computer I use for the purpose above. It was a bit of work
configuring the machine to ensure both the MS-DOS drivers and the Windows
98SE drivers co-existed peacefully.

I'm no  Windows 98 guru (or MS-DOS guru for that matter) so it may not be
the most efficient or elegant of solutions.   However, it worked for me. That
being the case I thought I’d document what I did.

Hopefully the article will be useful to others who might want to do this.

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-02-05-USB-in-MS-DOS-and-Win98.htm

Terry (Tez)

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>
>
> But, you have to tread very carefully.  Because SOMETIMES [now rarely],
> they could mean the PRE-5150 definition where "IBM compatible" meant
> 3740/SSSD 8" with 128 byte sectors.
> 5150 really was a danger to itself and/or others; it totally destroyed the
> meaning ot "IBM compatible" disks.
>

Indeed!   But in this case he did mean MS-DOS compatible.  I asked him if
by IBM compatible he meant MS-DOS compatible and indeed that's what he
meant.

Terry (Tez)

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>but dbit.com offers an adapter called an
>FDADAP that
>lets you connect a 50 pin 8" disk to the PC controller.  I have a couple
>and they work great.

I second that.  I've got one and works just as it should.

Terry (Tez)

Re: IBM 9331-011 8" External Floppy Drive - eBay 183038271095

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>
>
> DOS/Windoze will have absolutely no idea how to understand what is on the
> disk.
>
> Makes me thinks of the time a few months ago when a lab on our campus
wanted me to read some 8 inch disks in the archives for them.  The IT
manager said "I think they are IBM-compatible" (and by that he meant IBM-PC
compatible i.e MS-DOS).   I thought "yea, right."

They weren't of course.

Terry (Tez)

Even old accounting software needs love and rescuing from oblivion

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Hi folks,

On the weekend I rescued some old software.  It gave me an excuse to get my
first micro out of its box and stretch its legs.

Accounting packages hardly set the world alight but being a Dick Smith
release for the System 80, it does have its place in Australasian computer
history.  Anyway, if anyone is interested, here is the URL.

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2018-01-12-rescuing-more-dick-smith-software.htm

Terry (Tez)

DP 1000 and filing off IC identifiers? Why?

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Hi,


My apologies for cross-posting.  I’m putting this on a few of the forums


I have a third party TRS-80 Model 1 expansion unit that I used with my
System 80 when I first got disk drives.  I’ve decided I should add some
pics and info to the System 80 website as I know they were used here in New
Zealand with System 80’s and, also in the U.K. for the Video Genie.  A
modified expansion cable was needed to convert from the System 80 expansion
bus to the TRS-80 Model 1 bus on the unit but that was straightforward.



The interface is called a DP 1000 by General Northern Microcomputers Ltd.
It has no RAM, but contains a disk controller and printer port.  It was
designed for ‘80s Model 1s and compatibles that had 48K of RAM under the
keyboard, rather than requiring it in the expansion unit, as was the
standard configuration.  Many System 80s had their memory expanded under
the keyboard so it was ideal for these.  Mine was like this, and I found my
DP 1000 worked very well with it.



Before I put some info up, I’m wondering if anyone knows any more about
General Northern Microcomputers Ltd, the company that made the DP 1000?
I’m pretty sure it’s a U.K. company.


Also, most of the chips have their ID’s shaved off (see the circuit board
image)??  Why would they do this?  I can only assume it was to stop reverse
engineering?



Here are some pics:



http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/hardware_DP-1000-front-800.jpg

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/hardware_DP-1000-back-800.jpg

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/system-80/hardware_DP-1000-circuit-board-top-hi-res.jpg



Cheers



Terry

Re: Does anyone recognise this please

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

It looks very much like the Vic-20 one I have.

Terry (Tez)

Re: Service manual for IBM PS/2 Monochrome Display?

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>
> >IBM service manuals (certainly for PCs, PS/2s etc) did not normally
> contain
> >schematics. They were for repairs at the FRU (Field Replaceable Unit)
> level,
> >which is probably the complete monitor!.
>

I think you are right.  Thanks Tony.  It might have to remain an ornament.

Terry

Service manual for IBM PS/2 Monochrome Display?

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

(Note: Also posted to VCF)

Hi Guys,

It's a long shot but I’m searching for a manual, which hopefully someone
has scanned somewhere.

In my latest “check-my-gear-works” audit, an IBM PS/2 monitor failed. It
worked initially although brightness and contrast needed to be almost fully
up to see anything. Then the raster suddenly went. I have a power light but
no raster and no sign of life (i.e. no glow) in the elements in the neck.

The monitor is a Personal System/2 Monochrome display. Model 8503. It’s VGA
but mono.

I found one manual on the web. It’s the “IBM Personal System/2 Display
Hardware Maintenance Manual - Vol. 1” January 1993. Document Number
SA38-0053-00. Part Number 68G2616. Unfortunately (1) It doesn’t cover the
8503 model and (2) there are no pictures (I need pictures!).

Does anyone have, or knows of a link to, a service manual (PDF) for the
8503 model? This monitor is in good condition externally. It would be a
shame to throw it away but I really need to know what I’m doing before
poking around with the innards, to ascertain if it’s salvageable.!

I see someone on VCF had a whole pallet of these NIB for sale for $50 bucks
each about a year and a half ago.  220V versions even!  I haven't asked
them if there is still one available as (even if they could be bothered)
shipping to New Zealand would be an eye-watering $200 or so I imagine!

Terry (Tez)

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

?Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single Density.
> It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It can't see
any data.
>Could be an RX02 disk as people say

Oh, and sector size is 128 bytes.


On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 9:58 AM, Terry Stewart 
wrote:

> >In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this
>
> Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
> owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
> disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
> certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
> inclined.
>
> >I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
> >printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing
>
> Here it is:
>
> http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-
> vax-disk-cover.jpg
>
> Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
> Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
> can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...
>
> Terry (Tez)
>
>
> On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk 
> wrote:
>
>> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>> >> > Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
>> >
>> > On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
>> >> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
>> >
>> > I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
>> >
>> >
>> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>>
>> Allison
>>
>
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>In case not everyone noticed, but Terry's already given up on this

Lol, true. The disks will be given back on Monday.  It's no big deal.  The
owners can decided what they want to do.  Even if I can't read it the
disks, however, pondering just what the format might be is fun. I'm
certainly learning something. Feel free to keep speculating if you are so
inclined.

>I still think the best suggestion was the one about posting what's on the
>printed sheet that appears to be a directory listing

Here it is:

http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/images/2017-04-15-vax-disk-cover.jpg

Some more info.  Anadisk tells me the disks are Single Sided, Single
Density.  It can see ID marks as it tracks a disk but that is all.  It
can't see any data.  Could be an RX02 disk as people say...

Terry (Tez)


On Sat, May 6, 2017 at 8:50 AM, allison via cctalk 
wrote:

> On 05/05/2017 03:39 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
> >> > Terry is doing it for fun; we can't expect the others to.
> >
> > On Fri, 5 May 2017, Bill Gunshannon via cctalk wrote:
> >> I would.  :-)  Or maybe for beer.
> >
> > I doubt that Allison will want to underbid THAT!
> >
> >
> Free beer?!?  No, no,no...
>
> Allison
>

Re: Re: Extracting files off unknown 8 inch disks. Any thoughts

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2
>aka RX02.
>(..an in-depth explanation)
>How do I know.  I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
>uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
>I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
>and a CP/M utility that
>knew RT11 format.  IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
>RX01 media using FIT or other
>tools.

Thanks for that explanation Allison.  I see there are all sorts of complex
systems and formats.

Based on what I've read, I'll call it quits with this project.  The guys in
the lab in the next building can take it further if they want to.  They
didn't want anything specific off the floppies.  It was a case of "we want
to toss these disks.  but perhaps we should copy the stuff off these
disks...just in case".

Thanks for taking the time to respond.  It's been an interesting learning
exercise.

Terry



On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 1:27 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  wrote:

> Thank you!
>
> Now, the question will be whether Allison has some free time to check them
> out for Terry.
>
>
> Experience always beats speculation:
>
> On Thu, 4 May 2017, allison wrote:
>
>> First if they are DEC its one of two formats either FM aka RX01 or FM2
>> aka RX02.
>>
>> RX01 base format is 128byte sectors and 26 per track  PC can read them.
>>
>> RX02 base format is 256 bytes per sector byte the timing encoding is
>> totally
>> unreadable with any LSI controller.  It uses FM headers to confuse the
>> act.
>> To read that you need:
>> - RX02 and a compatible system.
>> -  one of the many DEC clones (DSD, and many others usually using 8X300
>> family chips)  in a DEC box (and cpu).
>> -Catswesel or one of the other flux readers in a PC.
>>
>> Note the RX02 drive is dual format, it can read/write rx01 media ( 8"
>> SSSD).  It can also read and write
>> RX02 format or "init" RX01 media to RX02 format and back to RX01.   RX02
>> format was unique to DEC
>> and the only other that could read or write it were DEC hardware
>> compatible controllers.
>>
>> First you have to satisfy the first (able to read sectors) to do the
>> second.
>>
>> Then the possible 8" ODS formats are
>>
>> DEC format (RX01 or 2) include PDP-8 family mostly OS8 (odd 12bit
>> formatting).
>>
>> The  PDP-11 group  RSX, RSTS, RT11, unix, are most common.  Note PDT150
>> is also PDP-11 RX01.
>> This was the most likely and populous hardware group using RX01/2 disks.
>> The Qbus PDP-11 systems could also support RQDX controller for 5.25 and
>> 3.5 inch floppies. That made later systems with RX01/02 less common over
>> time.
>>
>> VAX, 11/78x uses a PDP11 (LSI11) to load microcode.  It is PDP11 and
>> RX01 media.
>> Most of the later systems *if* they have 8" RX drives are likely any
>> format compatible with
>> the PDP-11 group as that's the likely exchange partner/target.
>>
>> I've not seen VAX format on RX01/2 media, its not impossible except for
>> the VAX78x family
>> as the PDP11(lsi-11) physically own the drive.   To do that it had to
>> have a unibus  RX controller
>> and a RX01/2 drive and then the file format can be anything as VMS had
>> utilities for most all the
>> PDP11 formats.
>>
>> Latter vaxen used RL02 or TU58 or other media to load microcode.
>> Microvax and later machine
>> did not load microcode save for exception code during the normal boot
>> sequence.   In those
>> cases a RX01/2 was unusual to the extreme save for maybe a Qbus microvax
>> (not a supported config)
>> assembled as a hack.  Most of the Qbus VAX systems with floppy used
>> RX33(5.25" RX50) or RX23(3.5")
>> as the RQDX1/2 controllers supported 5.25" floppies initially and later
>> firmware supported 5.25" Teac
>> and 3.5" Sony drives as well.  RQDX3 5.25" Teac and RX50  and 3.5" Sony
>> drives.  Because of this
>> and far more space per drive RX01/2 was rarely used.  The RQDX
>> controllers could do the stated
>> floppies even is MFM  disks were not connected.
>>
>> Also the VAXes may have run unix and that was likely user save media.
>>
>> in short if RX01 anything that can read SSSD 8" is good enough.  IF RX02
>> a pdp11 and RX02(or third party
>> equivalent) makes it easy.To do RX02 on PC you must have a flux
>> reader, 765 and later clones cannot.
>>
>> How do I know.  I have PDP-8, PDP11 (with RX02) and VAX (qbus uVAX,
>> uVAX2000, and 3100 family).
>> I used to and still do exchange between RT-11 and CP/M using RX01 mode
>> and a CP/M utility that
>> knew RT11 format.  IF it was RX02 media, I'd rewrite on the PDP11 to
>> RX01 media using FIT or other
>> tools.
>>
>>
>> Allison
>>
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>The 'RX02' format used by PUTR is actually IBM System 34 format,
>since DEC's 8" DD disks use a strange combination of SD headers
>with non-standard ID marks, and DD data fields, that can't be
>accessed with a standard PC FDC regardless of the software used."

Right.  It's definitely a possibility then.

Thanks

Terry

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>If it's an RX02 operating in double-density mode, you're not going to
>read the disks with any commodity floppy controller.  You will, however,
>get the sector ID headers.

>DEC used a rather peculiar scheme where headers were recording in
>single-density (FM), but the body of the sector (the data) is recorded
>in a "peculiar" MFM, that employs some pattern substitutions to avoid
>conflict with similar patterns in the headers.

Thanks Chuck

Hmm...I'll do some more checking with IMD and Anadisk tonight.  I haven't
looked at this disks in Anadisk yet.  IMD did recognise some things...maybe
it was the Sector ID headers.

Even if I can't get anything off, I'm now very curious as to exactly what
I'm dealing with.

Terry



On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 11:50 AM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 05/04/2017 04:30 PM, js--- via cctalk wrote:
>
> > On 5/4/2017 6:16 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
> >>> If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a
> >>> 11/780?
> >> There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.
> >
> > And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't
> > believe you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely
> > with a VAX.
>
> If it's an RX02 operating in double-density mode, you're not going to
> read the disks with any commodity floppy controller.  You will, however,
> get the sector ID headers.
>
> DEC used a rather peculiar scheme where headers were recording in
> single-density (FM), but the body of the sector (the data) is recorded
> in a "peculiar" MFM, that employs some pattern substitutions to avoid
> conflict with similar patterns in the headers.
>
> A catweasel will work just fine--and there's code out there to handle it.
>
> --Chuck
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>And yet, if there were an RX02 somewhere on this VAX, I don't believe
you'd be able to read them at all... RX02 seeming more likely with a VAX.

Interestingly PUTR, does seem to accommodate this, and the kind of system I
have set up (i.e. 1.2 MB 5.25 inch in CMOS even though it's an 8 inch
drive).  From the readme file...

"SET x: type


Sets the drive type for one of the four possible PC floppy
drives A:-D: (note that actual PCs rarely have more than one or
two floppy drives).  The type must be RX01, RX02, RX03, RX50,
RX33, RX24, RX23, or RX26.  The default value for each drive is
whatever was stored in CMOS memory by the ROM BIOS setup
utility.

This command may be useful when the drive types stored in CMOS
RAM are incorrect for some reason.  It's also helpful when an 8"
drive, or a real DEC RX50 drive, has been attached to the PC
using a D Bit "FDADAP" adapter, or something equivalent.  There
is no standard for representing these drive types in CMOS RAM.
Using real RX50 drives (or other 300 RPM quad-density drives
such as the Tandon TM100-3 and TM100-4) is different from RX33s
(which is what PUTR calls regular PC 1.2 MB drives) because the
motor speed is slower, so the FDC chip must be programmed for a
lower data rate to match."

 I didn't spend too much time on PUTR as it seemed to be more for the older
DEC OSs rather than Vax VMS.  VMS wasn't mentioned as an option in PUTR
which is why I spent more time experimenting with ODS2, which was VAX
specific.  And...as I said, PUTR tries to figure out what DEC OS (if any)
is on the disk and failed to find one.

Maybe I should play around with the switches in PUTR more before I give up
though

Terry

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780?
There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.
>Or they could just be disks used for data exchange.  They would be in
another DEC OS file format, rather than ODS2.

Thanks Jerry,

No one actually knows.  Attached to the front of the disks cover (on
printout paper) is a listing of the directory showing files. Some commands
to get that directory are also shown.

I also tried to examine this disks in pure MSDOS using PUTR V2.01, a DEC
File Transfer Program by John Wilson.  It interrogated the drive for a
recognisable DEC OS, but couldn't find one.

Interestingly, I was able to format/initialise a blank 8 inch disk in the
DEC format I tried (I think it was OS/8) using this program, then mount it
successfully.  This is why I think at least the hardware is working ok.

Cheers

Terry


On Fri, May 5, 2017 at 11:02 AM, Jerry Weiss <j...@ieee.org> wrote:

> If these are from a VAX, could they be microcode disks for a 11/780?
> There was a RX01 attached via a LSI-11 as console.
>
> Or they could just be disks used for data exchange.  They would be in
> another DEC OS file format, rather than ODS2.
>
> Jerry Weiss
> j...@ieee.org
>
>
> > On May 4, 2017, at 4:41 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
> >
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
> > thread I said...
> >
> >> Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8
> > inch floppy disks.
> >> They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive them.
> >> They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the
> software
> > was used to write the files.
> >> They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely.
> >
> > Now that I've got the 8 inch disk drive up and running and have some
> > experience with it, I thought I've give these disks a go.
> >
> > It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS,
> I
> > scoured the Internet for something that might read them.
> >
> > …...
> > Any comments most welcome.
> >
> > Thanks!
> >
> > Terry
>
>
>
>
>
>

Re: Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>Is your 8 inch setup capable of FM/single density?
>I think that Dave has a utility to test that.

Yes, quite capable.  It passes Dave's test and I have read/written in
single density when archiving other stuff.  Archiving my FM/single density
POLY and Panasonic stuff was no problem.
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15-adventures-with-an-8-inch-disk-drive-part3.htm

>It is more likely to be successful in 98 ("real mode")

No, this (at least the executable) was definitely designed to be run in
Windows.  It tells me  so if I try to start it under pure MS-DOS.

>Do you have access to any sort of "flux-transition" device (Central point
option board, cat-weasel, kryoflux, etc.)?

No. That option is out for me.

Terry

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>Does your system handle single density?  (some FDCs do; some don't)

Oh, yes it does.

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>Using IMD, or other tools, can you determine the density, bytes per
sector, and sectors per track of the disks (try at least 2)
>Also, is the data recorded single sided, or both sides?

>If you can read it with IMD, then you can start wading through content
within sectors to get more clues about what's there.

Thanks Fred,

Yes, reading them with IMD was one of the first things I tried.  Couldn't
do it at all.  Tons of errors, no tracks could be read.  IMD didn't
recognise the layout at all.

All the disks I tried were like this.

Terry

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Hi guys,

Just tying up some unfinished business.  Right at the beginning of this
thread I said...

>Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8
inch floppy disks.
>They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive them.
>They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the software
was used to write the files.
>They may be CP/M, or some other format entirely.

Now that I've got the 8 inch disk drive up and running and have some
experience with it, I thought I've give these disks a go.

It turns out these disks are from a VAX machine. Assuming the OS is VMS, I
scoured the Internet for something that might read them.

Eventually I found Hunter Goatley's v 1.3 of Paul Nankervis's ODS2 at
http://vms.process.com/scripts/fileserv/fileserv.com?ODS2 .  This program
reads VMS disks from PCs.  The zip had a Win32 executable included.
The executable seems to run ok in the DOS window of the Win98 machine I've
attached the drive too, in that the Command Line Interface seems fine and I
can type and issue commands.  However, I've had no luck with mounting the
disk in ODS2.  The error I get (consistent over all disks) is:

"Sector 1 read failed 87
PHYIO Error 500 Block 1 Length 512 (ASPI: 0 0 0)
Mount failed with 500"

I may have reached the limit of my skill envelope.  Before I abandon the
task and suggest to these researchers to consider sending these disks to
Chuck C., does anyone know...

1. What that error means?
2. If it would make a difference that I'm running the Win32 exe in Windows
98, rather than NT, 2000, XP etc.?   The documentation doesn't mention
Windows 98, however the program does start to a CLI without a problem.
3. I'm not sure ODS2 was built with 8 inch disks in mind?  Would it make a
difference?  CP/M disks in the 8 inch drive can be accessed and
read/written to under MS-DOS by the machine  I have the drive hooked up to,
so I don't think it's a hardware issue.
4. How likely is it that disks from a 1985 VAX is in some weird proprietary
format OTHER than VMS?

Any comments most welcome.

Thanks!

Terry

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>If you can find an old registered copy of FORMATQM, it allowed very
>flexible formatting.   So, you could format a DMF floppy by defining a
>format in the FORMATS.CFG file thus:

Reminds me of NEWDOS/80 V2 on the TRS-80 Mod 1/III.  The PDRIVE command let
you define your very own disk format!

No one else but you could read it of course (:

Yes, so it's as I thought re: formatting the 8 inch drive. MS-DOS felt it
knew better than I did.

>If you are using an 8" drive, it should also have accepted 77.

Yes, the point is Fred, it didn't. So, if /N is 15, then it must ONLY
accept T:40 or 80, yea?

Terry (Tez)

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>>It may also be that is just doesn't support 77 and can only do 80 tracks.

>I don't think it is this.  I can format it fine with 77 tracks using 22DSK
and IMD.  It has no problem reading or >writing to 77 track formatted disks.

Oh sorry Dwight, I thought you meant the drive here.  You mean MS-DOS 6.22
I guess.

Terry (Tez)

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>It may also be that is just doesn't support 77 and can only do 80 tracks.

I don't think it is this.  I can format it fine with 77 tracks using 22DSK
and IMD.  It has no problem reading or writing to 77 track formatted disks.

Terry

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>Here's a writeup for those interested:
>http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15-
adventures-with-an-8-inch-disk-drive-part1.htm

One thing in this project puzzled me.   Initially when I was testing the
drive I tried to format it for 77-tracks. I used the command FORMAT B: /u
/T:77 /N:15  .   It wouldn't let me.  MS-DOS said "
"Formatting 1.15M
parameters not supported by the drive"

After trying a few other things (unsuccessfully)  I just tried a straight
FORMAT B: /u
It then formatted it without complaint?

Listening to the head moving, I counted 77 tracks. The last three tracks
the clicking stopped.  I'm assuming the head just wrote over that final
track 3 times.  MS-DOS told me I'd formatted for 1.2MB.

I'm puzzled why I couldn't format the disk using the /t:77 and /n:15
switches.  Did MS-DOS just go by what was in the CMOS.  If that's the case,
why have those switches at all?   Are they just legacy switches for
pre-CMOS machines?

Anyone know the answer to this?

Terry (Tez)

>
>

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Hi,

Just an update on this.  I still haven't got those 8' floppies of unknown
origin to play with but I HAVE made a lot of progress with my own disks.
Thanks to everyone who gave me help with this.

Here's a writeup for those interested:
http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-04-15-adventures-with-an-8-inch-disk-drive-part1.htm

Terry (Tez)

Re: New addition to the collection

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Re NEC 8201a...

This is a machine I have  a lot if fondness for.   Wrote many article
drafts and crunched a lot of numbers on that little unit.

Terry (Tez)

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>I'll add one more note that an 8" drive supports 77 tracks/cylinders,
>where a 5.25" high-density drive supports 80.   So be careful.

Noted.  Everything is now ready waiting for those bits and pieces to arrive
from the U.S.

Last night I spent some time going deeper into IMD118, 22DISK and ANADISK.
I read the documentation properly and carefully.  I also played around with
the programs on the 486 using some known floppies and formats. I tried
different options and checked the images in a binary editor relating what I
saw with what the docs said should be there.   I now have a better
understanding of how these programs work and what they can tell/do for the
user.

Dave D and Herb Johnston have some good info on 8 inch drives both in the
docs and the web.  The docs in 22DISK (Chuck's?) give some good info on
CP/M format configurations and how to determine unknown ones.

The MS-DOS 6.2 486 DX worked perfectly!

I'm looking forward to this project.  Even if I don't get anything off
those unknown 8 inch floppies I should be able to image my Panasonic
JD-850M CP/M ones.  That will be reward enough as they contain locally
written software and I'd like to archive it.

What might throw a spanner in the works is that the drive may be broken.
It looks fine but it is untested.  Guess I'll just have to wait and see.

Terry (Tez)

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>For what it's worth, unless you're intent on *writing* 8" single-density
>floppies on the PC, the interconnect between the 8" drive 50-conductor
>cable and the PC 34-conductor one is pretty straightforward.  You don't
>need a FDADAP board for that, although it's very convenient.

Yes, and I'm all for convenience given that reading these things will be a
challenge enough.

I've ordered an FDADAP board and also an FDDC power converter.
http://www.dbit.com/fddc.html
http://www.dbit.com/fdadap.html

Now I just has to wait a week or two for them to arrive!

Terry (Tez)

Re: RE: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>Let's start with determining the hardware aspects to see whether Terry's
machines are capable of reading the disks.

Yes, this is the first step for me.  Last night I pulled out an MS-DOS 486
that seems capable. It can read/write single density according to TESTFDC.
This is the machine I'll use.

There will be a hiatus in the project while I get the connecting hardware
organised. Then we will see what we will see.  Hopefully the drive itself
works.  I don't know that for sure yet.

Thanks for all comments and advice.

Terry

Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

>Tez,

>Here's what I would do in your situation.

Excellent, thanks.

Terry (Tez)

On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 8:17 PM, Jay Jaeger via cctech <
cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
> > On Mar 22, 2017, at 23:08, Chuck Guzis via cctech <cct...@classiccmp.org>
> wrote:
> >
> >> On 03/22/2017 08:39 PM, Terry Stewart via cctalk wrote:
> >>
> >> Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common
> >> CP/M or DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these
> >> guys your email (-:
> >
> > Tez,
> >
> > Here's what I would do in your situation.
> >
> > If the disks are hard-sectored, forget it, unless you have the system
> > that wrote them.
> >
>
> Not necessarily.  For example, I have used a Catweasel board to recover
> hard sectored Data General floppies.  But it is certainly much harder,
> particularly if the format is not known in advance.
>
>
> > If they're soft-sectored, dig through your pile of PC "tweeners" using
> > Dave Dunfield's "TestFDC" and see if you can find one that does
> > single-density.
> >
> > Then hook your 8" drive to the PC and use his ImageDisk to grab a copy.
> >
> > That way, you can tinker with the image to figure out what's going on.
> > Failing that, you can pass the image to the list here and see if it
> > rings any bells.
> >
> > http://www.classiccmp.org/dunfield/img/index.htm
> >
> > --Chuck
> >
> >
>
>

Re: Re: Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Thanks Guys,

Now I'm intimidated (-:

Just kiddingthat's useful stuff Fred.  Thanks for taking the time to
type all that out.

I'll give it a go...and see what I can see.  If anything it's a good excuse
for me to wire the drive up.  I'd like to image those Panasonic disks one
day for posterity and at least I should be able to do that.

Chuck, in the highly likely event of the formats NOT being common CP/M or
DOS ones (i.e. ones I could probably manage), I'll give these guys your
email (-:

Cheers

Terry (Tez)



On Thu, Mar 23, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Once you've got sectors, speak up, and we'll give you more things to
>>> look at.
>>>
>>
> On Wed, 22 Mar 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>
>> Fred, how about the image of a Compugraphic typesetter floppy I have?
>> It uses Hebrew for its code set.
>> Feel up to it?
>>
>
> Nope.
> You're much better at it than I am.
> I was just trying to be encouraging, and suggesting some preliminary
> things that he could start with.
>
>
> Some disks were easy.
> And there were plenty that I never could figure out.
>
> --
> Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com
>

Extracting files off “unknown” 8 inch disks. Any thoughts…

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

Hi,



I’ve posted this to the VCF too…apologies for cross-posting.


I’d be grateful for any guidance or comments anyone could give me on this
problem.


Guys in the building next door to me (a Science lab) have found some 8 inch
floppy disks.  They want to see what’s on them, or at least to archive
them.  They have no idea what machine these disks were used with, or the
software was used to write the files.  They may be CP/M, or some other
format entirely.


I’ve got little experience with 8 inch drives or disk formats.  However I
have got a bare 8 inch floppy drive (a Mitsubishi M2896-63 Half Height
8inch DSDD), and also a CP/M computer with 8 inch drives (A Panasonic
JD-850M).  I’m thinking it might be an interesting challenge/project to see
if I can read these disks and get files off.


However, I imagine given all the unknowns it won’t be easy…perhaps even
impossible


I see two possible approaches.  One is to wire up the 8 inch drive to an
MS-DOS machine.  I’ll have to build/get a PSU for the drive so it can
supply the necessary 24 Volts required.  I’ll also have to make up a
special drive cable.   That info is available.  In fact, Chuck gave me some
tips a year or so ago.   However, once I’ve got the drive successfully
wired up, I then need to somehow analysis the disks to see what format they
are in.  Does anyone know of any software that will do this?  I’m aware of
disk22, for reading KNOWN CP/M formats but is there anything out there that
will analyse a disk from scratch?  Search the web has thrown up a few
possibilies (MMCPC, Cpmtools) but I haven’t explored them at all.


The second approach is to use the Panasonic JD-850M, and find a CP/M
program that will analyse an “unknown” 8 inch disk and read files from said
disks into the CP/M environment.  I’d somehow get the program into one of
my Panasonic 8 inch disks (just how, I’ll need to figure out).  I’d also
need to figure out how to get the files out of that environment also.


Anyway, has anyone else faced this kind of challenge and what are your
thoughts?  I don’t want to start unless I at least have some chance of
success.  I’m not hopeful.  The more I read the more you seem to need real
forensic skills and something like Kyroflux that works at low-level.


Thanks


Terry (Tez)

User group magazine scans for an orphan computer model

[Terry Stewart via cctalk]

I've been scanning some user group newsletters. Reading them today reveals
just how important they were for orphan machines home computers like the
EACA Colour Genie. Even if you're not interested in that model, they are
worth a look as they do reflect the "user club" scene of the day. I'm
assuming New Zealand was much the same as anywhere else in this regard.

Somewhat quaint, they reflect a bygone era.


http://www.classic-computers.org.nz/blog/2017-03-18-eaca-colour-genie-auckland-user-group-newsletters.htm

Terry (Tez)