[cctalk] Re: IBM PC-XT
Fond memories too, my second significantly used home computer (mainframes and midrange at work) (first was Trs80 m1, many others that I did almost nothing with) Mine was the first pc/xt clone I found for under $1000. Eventually grew to 3.5" A: disk and two double sided 80 track 5.25 disks for B: and C: (stolen from the trs-80 m1) The a: was operating system and most tools, a few specialized alternates for making greeting cards or something. The b: and c: were my "raid" array...everything I wrote to B was also written to C. still have that in storage, as well as several original pcs when they were tossed out at work. --Carey > On 03/09/2024 8:11 AM CST Murray McCullough via cctalk > wrote: > > > I look back fondly on the IBM PC-XT of 41 years ago. It was very pricy here > in the Great North but it allowed for a much more advanced computing > environment. What one could do with a 10MB hard disk! Granted it was far > more popular in the business world than the consumer one. However, it made > possible much greater developments that hobbyists and experimenters latched > onto. > > Happy computing! > > Murray
[cctalk] Re: IBM PC-XT
On Sat, 9 Mar 2024 at 14:12, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote: > > I look back fondly on the IBM PC-XT of 41 years ago. I think I briefly used one at university. I wrote about it recently. Its startling price put the Apple Lisa, launched the same year, into context: « The Lisa flopped partly because it was $9,995, about $30,000 today. A lot, sure, but for comparison, the first version of the original IBM PC to ship with a hard disk as standard, the IBM PC/XT, also launched in 1983 – and thanks to its 10 MB (no, not gig) hard disk, it cost $7,545. That's about $22,500 now. This is why eight-bit kit like the C64 dominated the 1983 market: 64 kB of RAM, audio cassettes for storage, and an analog TV set for a display was all that most home users could afford. The C64 was $595 at launch in 1981. By 1993, inflation meant that was about $1,000, which by then would get you a 486 PC. » https://www.theregister.com/2023/12/19/windows_nt_30_years_on/ -- Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam
And 1 of the floppies (it may habe 3) was full height. So maybe someone was trying to pawn it off as a real xt, piling everything they could into the box to make it convincing as possible.
[cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam
On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 12:56 PM Fred Cisin via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Why not gold-plate? Gold was under $200 an ounce fora while, and the > thickness was thin. > Price is not a very good indicator for gold, especially nowadays as it's so heavily manipulated/controlled by the banksters. Looking at this chart showing historical gold production going back to 1960, one can observe that gold supplies decreased sharply during the 1970s, and continued to drop into the 1980s. This seems to coincide with when memory prices were increasing dramatically (as a result of production shortages). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peak_gold#/media/File:Top_5_Gold_Producers.png At the same time, observe that by the mid- to late-1980s gold production in the USA, Australia, and China began ramped up sharply. I believe that also coincides with memory prices coming back down. Whether that correlation is THE reason or the ONLY reason, I can't say without further inquiry, but on the face of it, the supply of gold seems to have been a contributing factor to the price of RAM skyrocketing. Regardless, whether or not gold is "cheap" is not really the issue in my opinion. Gold is an expensive material to use relative to most others that go into making a computer no matter what it costs, and no (sensible) company is going to use more than it really needs. Thinly-plated gold on one RAM chip is not that much, but multiply that by a million and now we're talking a treasure chest. The first Pentium processor contained about half a gram of gold in it, which is considerable. There are 31.1g in a troy ounce, and a troy ounce of gold is currently shooting back towards $2,000 (and likely well beyond at this point). If you can get your hands on 16 original Pentium processors, you've got yourself some nice vacation money (ignoring extraction and refining costs). Compare that to processors today, which have virtually no gold in the CPU, and only a thin plating on the pins. And then there's a company several years ago that created a silver alloy that does not tarnish, obviating the need for gold plating except for in the most critical electronics applications. There's (usually) a good reason companies manufacture their products the way they do, and it's not to make them look blingy (well, some do). If it's not absolutely required, they're not going to use it. As soon as it was feasible to do away with using gold, it was phased out. Sellam
[cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam
I obviously am into pain. But not so much that I want to wrestle with a mfm/rll/esdi drive. I didn't say I was going to use it for much. The black p/s may not even work. It didn't have a white switch don't think. The point is if I got it all working it would be aomething of an 80s retro type of sleeper pc. No name case, buy all True Blue inside. And weirdly vintage even for it's time (on account of the black and gold).
[cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam
> On 01/21/2023 2:55 PM CST Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: > The first 5150 was available with one row of 16K RAM, you could plug > whatever you had (such as from Godbout) into the other 3 rows, and almost > anything was cheaper than IBM's prices. > > > I think that the early 5160 also used 16K RAM, but I don't know if you > could buy one without all 4 rows populated. > > Then 5160 was available that could use 64K RAM chips, and/or, with a > trivial mod could use two rows of 256K chips, plus two rows of 64K chips. > > Anybody remember the full details? > That all sounds correct. In addition, I seem to recall there were some even later 5160s that came from the factory with the 640K "mod." I just opened the 5160 I have to look at it. It's crammed full of boards that I didn't want to pull, but I could see it has four rows of what look like 64K chips. The board is marked "64 / 256K " and it has some RAM on at least one of the plug-in boards. I really should sell this monster before I get too old to lift it. Will
[cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam
On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: In all honesty I hadn't allowed for non gold plated lids. Didn't know they were a thing. I certainly have no problem with gilded ram. I found the thing at a vcf swap meet. No one else wanted it (?) so I snagged it. Along with a no unnamed 5160 clone that to my amazement had a black IBM p\s inside. Maybe I'll pull that mobo and insert Goldilocks. Some eaarly 5150's had a black power supply, sometimes with a white switch. My first 5150 (directly from IBM) had a black supply. But, that was a 65W power supply, and for a 5160, especially if you put in a hard disk, you want the 135W supply. The stock (made by Xebec) 5160 hard drive controller supported two drives of 5MB, 10MB (default), 16MB, and 26MB drives with unmarked jumper pad. Any of those full height hard drives would be more than appropriate power draw for the 65W power supply.
[cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam
On Saturday, January 21, 2023, 03:56:06 PM EST, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote: Why not gold-plate? Gold was under $200 an ounce fora while, and the thickness was thin. In all honesty I hadn't allowed for non gold plated lids. Didn't know they were a thing. I certainly have no problem with gilded ram. I found the thing at a vcf swap meet. No one else wanted it (?) so I snagged it. Along with a no unnamed 5160 clone that to my amazement had a black IBM p\s inside. Maybe I'll pull that mobo and insert Goldilocks.
[cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam
On 2023-Jan-21, at 10:14 AM, Chris via cctalk wrote: > And if your lids aren't gold plated, is the lid aluminum or some related > alloy? Tin-plate on copper would be likely, easy to solder-seal on. Al would not solder on easily. Tin does make a nice plating. Even HP made some lab/computing equipment in the 60/70s with tin-plate (not solder 'tinned') PCBs including the edge-connector fingers, even though that is the era they were known for full-gold-plate PCBs.
[cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam
On Sat, 21 Jan 2023, Chris via cctalk wrote: I have an xt mobo and some portion is populated w/NEC 4116 or 4164 chips (but 4116s were specific to the 5150, no? It's not in front of me). There are a bunch on the board, not sure if it's all the ram. Was this typical (I'm sure that wasn't the case). Is this an example of an early 5160? Why did they goldnplate the covers? The first 5150 was available with one row of 16K RAM, you could plug whatever you had (such as from Godbout) into the other 3 rows, and almost anything was cheaper than IBM's prices. I think that the early 5160 also used 16K RAM, but I don't know if you could buy one without all 4 rows populated. Then 5160 was available that could use 64K RAM chips, and/or, with a trivial mod could use two rows of 256K chips, plus two rows of 64K chips. Anybody remember the full details? Why not gold-plate? Gold was under $200 an ounce fora while, and the thickness was thin.
[cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam
Speaking of gold-plated chips, I'm finally scrapping the last remnants of a Redactron mag card word processor; the main board has some house numbered white ceramic chips with the usual gold pins and lids (24, 40, 16 pins). Any interest for decoration/jewelry/exploration/whatever? Also some Burroughs boards with their odd square package. Finally, some Burroughs memory boards containing what I think are 2102s, but I'd have to investigate. m On Sat, Jan 21, 2023 at 1:43 PM John Herron via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Earlier chips would have gold and later ceramic or black to save money. > With RAM being expensive it was common to take whatever you had and toss it > in your next system or an expansion card so that may be what you're seeing > from a previous owner. > > On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 12:14 PM Chris via cctalk > wrote: > > > Well the latgest question I have is whether early NEC chips with any > lida > > were commonly used to populate tne 5162. And if your lids aren't gold > > plated, is the lid aluminum or some related alloy? >
[cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam
On 1/21/23 10:14, Chris via cctalk wrote: > Well the latgest question I have is whether early NEC chips with any lida > were commonly used to populate tne 5162. And if your lids aren't gold plated, > is the lid aluminum or some related alloy? I'm just guessing, but probably NP copper.
[cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam
Earlier chips would have gold and later ceramic or black to save money. With RAM being expensive it was common to take whatever you had and toss it in your next system or an expansion card so that may be what you're seeing from a previous owner. On Sat, Jan 21, 2023, 12:14 PM Chris via cctalk wrote: > Well the latgest question I have is whether early NEC chips with any lida > were commonly used to populate tne 5162. And if your lids aren't gold > plated, is the lid aluminum or some related alloy?
[cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam
Well the latgest question I have is whether early NEC chips with any lida were commonly used to populate tne 5162. And if your lids aren't gold plated, is the lid aluminum or some related alloy?
[cctalk] Re: IBM PC/XT and NEC "gold" tam
On 1/21/23 09:21, Chris via cctalk wrote: > I have an xt mobo and some portion is populated w/NEC 4116 or 4164 chips (but > 4116s were specific to the 5150, no? It's not in front of me). There are a > bunch on the board, not sure if it's all the ram. Was this typical (I'm sure > that wasn't the case). Is this an example of an early 5160? Why did they > goldnplate the covers? Common practice back in the day, when the price of gold plating wasn't a cost issue, compared to the cost of the chip itself. That being said, I think that I have some NEC uPD416 (4116 equivalent) where the lids are not gold-plated. But even Intel gold plated the lids on their 2117 DRAM ceramic packages. --Chuck
