[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
Both ALGOL60 and ALGOL68 are also available on the CDC Cyber 865 and CDC Cyber 175 at the Nostalgic Computing Center (http://www.nostalgiccomputing.org), and both are also available in the NOS 2.8.7 distribution with DtCyber in the GitHub repo at https://github.com/kej715/DtCyber. Pascal is available at those locations too. It’s not the original version written fir CDC Maxine’s by Wirth, but probably a direct descendant of it. > On Jan 5, 2024, at 4:02 PM, Gary Grebus via cctalk > wrote: > > On 1/4/24 19:34, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: >> I think the CDC 6000 Algol 68 is still around somewhere. That one was >> created in Holland. > There is NOS/BE install for DtCyber available from retro1.org. It includes > binaries of both Algol 60 and Algol 68 compilers. > >Gary > >
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
On 1/4/24 19:34, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: I think the CDC 6000 Algol 68 is still around somewhere. That one was created in Holland. There is NOS/BE install for DtCyber available from retro1.org. It includes binaries of both Algol 60 and Algol 68 compilers. Gary
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
In further honor of Niklaus Wirth and Pascal: In a Poly-88 system I acquired last year, it had a printing of the Tiny Pascal Compiler article in a 1978 BYTE publication. That has BASIC source code for the initial interpreter of a Pascal compiler. We ported that over to the Commodore BASIC V2, as used on the Commander X16 system. As-is it only supported the INTEGER type (and arrays thereof). It compiles to a "p-code" where then an interpreter executes those results.The thing about the X16 system is we have BASLOAD that adds a few features to BASIC: long variable names, and symbolic GOTO/GOSUB so that line numbers aren't needed (effectively a kind of QuickBASIC front end to the native BASIC of the host system). It works splendidly at making it far easier to write up more complex BASIC programs. With the original TinyPascal baseline all working, now Martin Schmalenbach is taking the initiative of expanding the type support (including pointer support) and has a working "Version 1" that handles some simple input and output. We realize use of BASIC and p-code was never the most efficient approach to building a robust compiler and development environment. But we still consider it fun to use modern tools and perspective and pulling further on the threads of that 1978 article and see where it goes. It may be a helpful tutorial on the process of using one language to create another, then using that result to develop the language you really wanted (e.g. using tinyPascal to later write an on-system C compiler). Or it may be an example of a "super sized" BASIC program doing an interesting application (and exercising the multiple banks of the X16 system). Original discussion thread: https://cx16forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6833 V1 introductory thread: https://cx16forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6947 -Steve On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 10:08 PM Paul Berger via cctalk < cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > Pascal did not have strings originally, but it is a common > "enhancement". I recall 40 years ago setting out to write a program to > create a data file using the S/370 ANSI Pascal compiler and it did not > have strings. > > Paul. > > On 2024-01-04 8:51 p.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: > > Pascal has strings. > > > > Sellam > > > > On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 4:19 PM Warner Losh via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > > wrote: > > > >> My first two pascal programs of any size were an Alarm Clock for my DEC > >> Rainbow and a PDP-11 simulator, also for my DEC Rainbow (I did a science > >> fair project comparing stack machines to traditional ones, but invented > my > >> own stack machine and was too young to know the right way to > >> compare/contrast the two different machines, so I scraped by with a > better > >> than average rating... mostly because nobody knew how to evaluate it, > but > >> that was to my advantage thinking back on it...). Ah, fond memories of > >> Turbo Pascal. > >> > >> Lack of strings, and lack of a good way to do portable I/O doomed the > >> language. > >> > >> Warner > >> >
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
> On Jan 4, 2024, at 11:08 PM, Paul Berger via cctalk > wrote: > > Pascal did not have strings originally, but it is a common "enhancement". I > recall 40 years ago setting out to write a program to create a data file > using the S/370 ANSI Pascal compiler and it did not have strings. Sounds like ALGOL 60, which suffered from similar problems. (Also no standardized I/O.) That was one issue ALGOL 68 corrected. paul
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
Paul Koning wrote: > Pascal is still around; the GCC compiler suite has it, and Modula-2 as > well. Speaking of which, GCC (or its first attempt) came from a Pascal compiler called Pastel.
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
> -Original Message- > From: Paul Koning > Sent: 05 January 2024 00:34 > To: r...@jarratt.me.uk; cctalk@classiccmp.org > Cc: Robert Jarratt > Subject: Re: [cctalk] RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus > Wirth > > > > > On Jan 4, 2024, at 5:38 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > > > Sad news but a great article Liam, thanks for the interesting history. > > > > The second language I taught myself was Algol 68 (!), on a DECSYSTEM20. I > learned Pascal at University, when I did my M.Sc I used VAX Pascal on a VAX > 11/780 and went on to use it as my first professional language. I loved VAX > Pascal, I could do just about anything I wanted with it. Of course, it wasn't > very "pure" Pascal. > > > > Incidentally, I have asked a couple of times before, but if anyone knows of > any media with Algol68C for PDP10 I would love to get hold of it. > > That would be neat, indeed. Where did that one come from? I remember a > well regarded Algol68 subset compiler from the Royal Radar Establishment in > the UK. Don't remember what machine(s) it targeted. Algol68C came from the University of Cambridge. It was written on IBM hardware as a portable compiler and it was ported to PDP10 at the University of Essex. > > There's an Algol68g (GPL-licensed open source implementation). I haven't > tried it yet. > > I think the CDC 6000 Algol 68 is still around somewhere. That one was > created in Holland. > > paul
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
I worked on the UCSD Pascal project which started from the P2 compiler that Wirth created for the CDC computer. I loved working on the project and even more learning so much about compilers, linkers, OS design and how to make it all work really well and pretty darn fast for a PDP-11/02 with 64K of RAM and a floppy disk. He will truly be missed. David > On Jan 4, 2024, at 2:38 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > Sad news but a great article Liam, thanks for the interesting history. > > The second language I taught myself was Algol 68 (!), on a DECSYSTEM20. I > learned Pascal at University, when I did my M.Sc I used VAX Pascal on a VAX > 11/780 and went on to use it as my first professional language. I loved VAX > Pascal, I could do just about anything I wanted with it. Of course, it wasn't > very "pure" Pascal. > > Incidentally, I have asked a couple of times before, but if anyone knows of > any media with Algol68C for PDP10 I would love to get hold of it. > > Regards > > Rob > >> -Original Message- >> From: Liam Proven via cctalk >> Sent: 04 January 2024 21:32 >> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts >> Cc: Liam Proven >> Subject: [cctalk] RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus >> Wirth >> >> Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and an >> OS was 89 >> >> https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/ >> >> The great man has left us. I wrote an obituary. >> >> -- >> Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven >> Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com >> Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven >> IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ >> WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > There are two ways to write error-free programs; only the third works. --Alan J. Perlis David Barto ba...@kdbarto.org
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
Pascal did not have strings originally, but it is a common "enhancement". I recall 40 years ago setting out to write a program to create a data file using the S/370 ANSI Pascal compiler and it did not have strings. Paul. On 2024-01-04 8:51 p.m., Sellam Abraham via cctalk wrote: Pascal has strings. Sellam On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 4:19 PM Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: My first two pascal programs of any size were an Alarm Clock for my DEC Rainbow and a PDP-11 simulator, also for my DEC Rainbow (I did a science fair project comparing stack machines to traditional ones, but invented my own stack machine and was too young to know the right way to compare/contrast the two different machines, so I scraped by with a better than average rating... mostly because nobody knew how to evaluate it, but that was to my advantage thinking back on it...). Ah, fond memories of Turbo Pascal. Lack of strings, and lack of a good way to do portable I/O doomed the language. Warner
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
On 1/4/24 15:49, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Jan 4, 2024, at 4:32 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and an OS was 89 https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/ The great man has left us. Great man, indeed. I still have a soft spot for Pascal; it's one of only two languages where I was able to go from zero knowledge to having a fully functional significant program in one week. (The other is Python.) Pascal is still around; the GCC compiler suite has it, and Modula-2 as well. Yes, I discovered the FPC (Free Pascal Compiler) in Linux that is designed to support the Borland and DEC extensions. I used it to resurrect a significant program from long ago. My experience with Pascal was that once I got rid of the syntax errors and undeclared variables, most programs ran as designed FIRST TIME! It made me construct the program logically. Sorry to hear of Mr. Wirth's passing! Jon
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
Pascal has strings. Sellam On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 4:19 PM Warner Losh via cctalk wrote: > My first two pascal programs of any size were an Alarm Clock for my DEC > Rainbow and a PDP-11 simulator, also for my DEC Rainbow (I did a science > fair project comparing stack machines to traditional ones, but invented my > own stack machine and was too young to know the right way to > compare/contrast the two different machines, so I scraped by with a better > than average rating... mostly because nobody knew how to evaluate it, but > that was to my advantage thinking back on it...). Ah, fond memories of > Turbo Pascal. > > Lack of strings, and lack of a good way to do portable I/O doomed the > language. > > Warner >
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
Many thanks Liam. N. Wirth, the man and his creation(s), has a special place in my understanding of computers and how programming works - the way it should. Great men do change things and in N. Wirth's case much for the better in the computing world and dare I say beyond. Murray On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 5:38 PM Rob Jarratt via cctalk wrote: > Sad news but a great article Liam, thanks for the interesting history. > > The second language I taught myself was Algol 68 (!), on a DECSYSTEM20. I > learned Pascal at University, when I did my M.Sc I used VAX Pascal on a VAX > 11/780 and went on to use it as my first professional language. I loved VAX > Pascal, I could do just about anything I wanted with it. Of course, it > wasn't very "pure" Pascal. > > Incidentally, I have asked a couple of times before, but if anyone knows > of any media with Algol68C for PDP10 I would love to get hold of it. > > Regards > > Rob > > > -Original Message- > > From: Liam Proven via cctalk > > Sent: 04 January 2024 21:32 > > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> > > Cc: Liam Proven > > Subject: [cctalk] RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator > Niklaus Wirth > > > > Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and an > > OS was 89 > > > > https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/ > > > > The great man has left us. I wrote an obituary. > > > > -- > > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com > > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ > > WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 > >
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
> On Jan 4, 2024, at 5:38 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk > wrote: > > Sad news but a great article Liam, thanks for the interesting history. > > The second language I taught myself was Algol 68 (!), on a DECSYSTEM20. I > learned Pascal at University, when I did my M.Sc I used VAX Pascal on a VAX > 11/780 and went on to use it as my first professional language. I loved VAX > Pascal, I could do just about anything I wanted with it. Of course, it wasn't > very "pure" Pascal. > > Incidentally, I have asked a couple of times before, but if anyone knows of > any media with Algol68C for PDP10 I would love to get hold of it. That would be neat, indeed. Where did that one come from? I remember a well regarded Algol68 subset compiler from the Royal Radar Establishment in the UK. Don't remember what machine(s) it targeted. There's an Algol68g (GPL-licensed open source implementation). I haven't tried it yet. I think the CDC 6000 Algol 68 is still around somewhere. That one was created in Holland. paul
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
My first two pascal programs of any size were an Alarm Clock for my DEC Rainbow and a PDP-11 simulator, also for my DEC Rainbow (I did a science fair project comparing stack machines to traditional ones, but invented my own stack machine and was too young to know the right way to compare/contrast the two different machines, so I scraped by with a better than average rating... mostly because nobody knew how to evaluate it, but that was to my advantage thinking back on it...). Ah, fond memories of Turbo Pascal. Lack of strings, and lack of a good way to do portable I/O doomed the language. Warner
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
Nice obituary. I'll have to admit I learned a lot about the man reading it. Sellam On Thu, Jan 4, 2024 at 1:32 PM Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: > Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and > an OS was 89 > > https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/ > > The great man has left us. I wrote an obituary. > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 > Czech [+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053 >
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
On Thu, 4 Jan 2024, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote: On Jan 4, 2024, at 4:32 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote: Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and an OS was 89 https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/ The great man has left us. Great man, indeed. I still have a soft spot for Pascal; it's one of only two languages where I was able to go from zero knowledge to having a fully functional significant program in one week. (The other is Python.) Pascal is still around; the GCC compiler suite has it, and Modula-2 as well. Paul, take a look at Lazarus some time. It's pretty awesome. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
Sad news but a great article Liam, thanks for the interesting history. The second language I taught myself was Algol 68 (!), on a DECSYSTEM20. I learned Pascal at University, when I did my M.Sc I used VAX Pascal on a VAX 11/780 and went on to use it as my first professional language. I loved VAX Pascal, I could do just about anything I wanted with it. Of course, it wasn't very "pure" Pascal. Incidentally, I have asked a couple of times before, but if anyone knows of any media with Algol68C for PDP10 I would love to get hold of it. Regards Rob > -Original Message- > From: Liam Proven via cctalk > Sent: 04 January 2024 21:32 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > Cc: Liam Proven > Subject: [cctalk] RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus > Wirth > > Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and an > OS was 89 > > https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/ > > The great man has left us. I wrote an obituary. > > -- > Liam Proven ~ Profile: https://about.me/liamproven > Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk ~ gMail/gTalk/FB: lpro...@gmail.com > Twitter/LinkedIn: lproven ~ Skype: liamproven > IoM: (+44) 7624 277612: UK: (+44) 7939-087884 Czech [+ > WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal]: (+420) 702-829-053
[cctalk] Re: RIP: Software design pioneer and Pascal creator Niklaus Wirth
> On Jan 4, 2024, at 4:32 PM, Liam Proven via cctalk > wrote: > > Evangelist of lean software and devisor of 9 programming languages and > an OS was 89 > > https://www.theregister.com/2024/01/04/niklaus_wirth_obituary/ > > The great man has left us. Great man, indeed. I still have a soft spot for Pascal; it's one of only two languages where I was able to go from zero knowledge to having a fully functional significant program in one week. (The other is Python.) Pascal is still around; the GCC compiler suite has it, and Modula-2 as well. paul
