Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Stefan Skoglund via cctalk]

ons 2019-10-30 klockan 13:17 -0400 skrev Paul Koning via cctalk:
> > 
> In some countries, at least in the early 1980s (Sweden?) the law said
> that private organizations could run communication wires on a floor
> of a building, but to wire from one floor to another was the monopoly
> of the government PTT.  So DEC Ethernet bridges had PTT approval
> stickers on them from those countries, indicating those PTTs would be
> willing to build you a bridged Ethernet from floor 1 to floor 2.
> 

I remember stickers on modems and telephones (ie not televerket
provided equipment) which said that this equipment is certified
to be directly connected to televerket's telephone lines.

But computer network equipment owned by the organization and used
on the organization's premises ?? That i don't remember.

PS
Televerket : Sweden's state owned telephone monopoly, today
known by the public as Telia company. Ellemtel the development
organization was co-owned by Ericsson/LME/Three-bars and Televerket.
DS

PPS
LME still exist in name basically as a holding company for Ericsson.
DSS

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Antonio Carlini via cctalk]

On 30/10/2019 02:34, allison via cctalk wrote:


Funny thing was DECnet was in 1983 the largest world wide network
period.  By then is was well over 300 nodes and climbing fast.
And none of it used IP or NCP though it did transport P packets
encapsulated using DECnet.


When I hear NCP I still think of DECnet's Network Control Program first, 
so I *do* think that DECnet used NCP :-)



Antonio


--
Antonio Carlini
anto...@acarlini.com

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Oct 30, 2019, at 11:20 AM, allison via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> ...
>> But it's not germane. We're not talking about corporate proprietary
>> stuff, or we shouldn't be.
> 
> We should as they were existent and ideas grew from them and for periods
> even depended on them.  As a result a more open set of specifications
> emerged.  That was a contrast to the Telcos(PTT) and private companies.

Note that there's closed, open, and standard.  Closed as in "one company, 
others can't do this", open as in "defined by a company but anyone can 
implement this" (DECnet is an example) and standard (TCP/IP, OSI, Ethernet -- 
things agreed to by groups of separate and possibly competing organizations).

About PTT/Telcos, two historic tidbits.  In the 1980s DEC paid a contractor to 
string up private fiber between DEC buildings in New England, for use by its 
internal DECnet network (originally "the Engineering net").  It also built a 
number of satellite ground stations, for example in Littleton and Nashua.  
Unfortunately, I wasn't alert enough to ask if I could have one of those dishes 
when they were dismantled.

In some countries, at least in the early 1980s (Sweden?) the law said that 
private organizations could run communication wires on a floor of a building, 
but to wire from one floor to another was the monopoly of the government PTT.  
So DEC Ethernet bridges had PTT approval stickers on them from those countries, 
indicating those PTTs would be willing to build you a bridged Ethernet from 
floor 1 to floor 2.

> To think, it all grew from people on hills with flags, mirrors, or
> fires trying to send messages faster and further than physical means
> like runners and horses.
> 
> Allison

One might dust off Samuel Morse's comment: "What hath God wrought".

paul

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[allison via cctalk]

On 10/30/19 10:18 AM, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:
> On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 at 03:34, allison via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>>
>> The whole story of what was going on was far more complex and interesting.
> 
> Conceded.
> 
>> Funny thing was DECnet was in 1983 the largest world wide network
>> period.  By then is was well over 300 nodes and climbing fast.
>> And none of it used IP or NCP
> 
> That's the _point_ here though, isn't it?

I may be a but US centric but hey I lived her all my life...
its what I know.  Clearly if it was happening here it was
world wide.

I was fortunate to be an early Compuserve user and BBS user
and I also remember packet radio (amateur).

That that network was interconnected to Arpanet at that time (81 as I
remember and likely earlier) is significant.  I really liked that I
could email to Valbone or Galway plants or just as easily the east coast
and Japan facilities.  And still be present on the bitnet, news, and
other services and places as well.

It was one of the few large backbone networks that had mixed traffic.
at that time the interconnect and transport was mostly private but
included portals.

> Yes, old hands like list members here know that there were
> inter-computer networks before the ARPAnet.
> 
> Yes, there were big WANs of DEC kit and IBM kit using DEC proprietary
> protocols and IBM proprietary protocols. There were also long-distance
> dial-up connections of all sorts but just carrying terminal traffic.
> They weren't network connections, computer-to-computer. They were
> terminal connections. All they carried was a single datastream.
> 
> That is not the significance being discussed here, even if it's being
> discussed with the wrong terms.

Not so, the whole of Arpanet was my computer calls your computer a few
times a day and exchanges info/news/email as The "NETWORK" if any was
telco or lease lines.

That was [all of the above and more] before there was and significant
backbone to "hook up to".  The backbone is the internet as we know it.

> 
> And yes, granted:
> 
>> The network wars were warming up about then (1982ish) and it
>> would take till the late 80s early 90s for IP to win that war.
>> The big explosion was WWW.
> 
> But the core point here is that the WWW does not equal the Internet,
> and the Internet does not equal the WWW.

True but the point was WWW made the need for the network connectivity
"The Internet" became a commodity thing not unlike the interstate highways.

> The WWW is a 1990s thing, mid-1990s for most people outside academia,
> post-turn-of-the-century for public broadband.
> 
> And to 99% of the world, even where I work in a technical company, the
> WWW *is the Internet*. My colleagues are all in their 20s and 30s and
> they do not distinguish the 2. The thought that there is a distinction
> is quite confusing to them.

WWW is not the internet it is a good reason for one and maybe the
worst utilization for one (opine).   However it forced more
connectivity which is what the internet is.

Hence my usage... it can be found ON the internet, not in.

> So they honestly believe that the Internet did not exist until the
> mid-1990s and it's about 25 years old. Their age.

It was  around far longer before that as my first contact was in the
late 70s.

> But the real Internet is twice as old as that, and it dates to the end
> of the 1960s. The internet is roughly contemporaneous with people
> walking on the Moon.

It is but access for the nonacademic or small company was much later
in the 80s.  Back then I investigate getting connected and was basically
you needed to know someone at a Uni and get UUCP going.  It was around
then the SOURCE and Compuserve became visible and BBS started to be
interconnected likely by dialup.

> Bickering about there being WANs before that, or larger proprietary
> networks, or how to define "the Internet" is counter-productive.

True as the first WAN was telco!  Much of what came later either relied
on telco tech (ESS and T1 lines any one remember them?) or built on it.
 For many here in the use the Carterphone decision made interconnecting
easier and competitive for products and other services.

Back before the 80s I used to provide UHF repeater service and
I remember using leased lines ("copper pairs" without equalization)
for interconnect (analog) and the cost was not trivial and the available
interconnect length was limited (miles).Those Arpanet and the like
users had the finances to have leased lines or even privately installed
lines to connect points in their reach.  it was a driver to have a
common network for traffic and of course rules for how the traffic was
formed and routed.

> It's not about networks. It's about one particular network, the first
> one that wasn't a proprietary single-vendor effort.
> 
>> Other names or routable networks, Banyan vines, and IPX come
>> to mind besides DECNET Phase III and IV.
> 
> Absolutely yes. I deployed or worked with all of these and I prefer at
> least 1 of 

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Wed, 30 Oct 2019 at 03:34, allison via cctalk  wrote:

>
> The whole story of what was going on was far more complex and interesting.

Conceded.

> Funny thing was DECnet was in 1983 the largest world wide network
> period.  By then is was well over 300 nodes and climbing fast.
> And none of it used IP or NCP

That's the _point_ here though, isn't it?

Yes, old hands like list members here know that there were
inter-computer networks before the ARPAnet.

Yes, there were big WANs of DEC kit and IBM kit using DEC proprietary
protocols and IBM proprietary protocols. There were also long-distance
dial-up connections of all sorts but just carrying terminal traffic.
They weren't network connections, computer-to-computer. They were
terminal connections. All they carried was a single datastream.

That is not the significance being discussed here, even if it's being
discussed with the wrong terms.

And yes, granted:

> The network wars were warming up about then (1982ish) and it
> would take till the late 80s early 90s for IP to win that war.
> The big explosion was WWW.

But the core point here is that the WWW does not equal the Internet,
and the Internet does not equal the WWW.

The WWW is a 1990s thing, mid-1990s for most people outside academia,
post-turn-of-the-century for public broadband.

And to 99% of the world, even where I work in a technical company, the
WWW *is the Internet*. My colleagues are all in their 20s and 30s and
they do not distinguish the 2. The thought that there is a distinction
is quite confusing to them.

So they honestly believe that the Internet did not exist until the
mid-1990s and it's about 25 years old. Their age.

But the real Internet is twice as old as that, and it dates to the end
of the 1960s. The internet is roughly contemporaneous with people
walking on the Moon.

Bickering about there being WANs before that, or larger proprietary
networks, or how to define "the Internet" is counter-productive.

It's not about networks. It's about one particular network, the first
one that wasn't a proprietary single-vendor effort.

> Other names or routable networks, Banyan vines, and IPX come
> to mind besides DECNET Phase III and IV.

Absolutely yes. I deployed or worked with all of these and I prefer at
least 1 of them to TCP/IP even now, working for a company that until
very recently owned one of the 3 technologies in that list and owned
my employers too.

But it's not germane. We're not talking about corporate proprietary
stuff, or we shouldn't be.


-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Oct 29, 2019, at 10:34 PM, allison via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 10/29/19 8:50 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote:
>> We celebrated the 40th anniversary of the Internet less than 2 years
>> ago:
>> 
>>> https://computerhistory.org/blog/born-in-a-van-happy-40th-birthday-to-the-internet/
>> 
>> The ARPAnet was a WAN (wide area network) and not an Internet, but it
>> was one of the three networks involved in that first test on November
>> 22, 1977 (after a two network test the previous year). The option to use
>> TCP/IP in addition to the native NCP became popular on the ARPAnet to
>> the point that NCP was turned off in 1983. It was hardly the only
>> network to get assimilated into the Internet, but it was the one with
>> the most impact. That makes the 50th anniversary of the first ARPAnet
>> packet an important milestone in Internet pre-history.
>> 
>> -- Jecel
>> 
> 
> The whole story of what was going on was far more complex and interesting.
> 
> Funny thing was DECnet was in 1983 the largest world wide network
> period.  By then is was well over 300 nodes and climbing fast.
> And none of it used IP or NCP though it did transport P packets
> encapsulated using DECnet.  A lot of DEC hardware was involved
> in the DARPA/Arpanet.
> 
> The network wars were warming up about then (1982ish) and it
> would take till the late 80s early 90s for IP to win that war.
> The big explosion was WWW.
> 
> Other names or routable networks, Banyan vines, and IPX come
> to mind besides DECNET Phase III and IV.

And before DECnet learned to route (which came in Phase III) there was routing 
in Typeset-11 clusters.  Those used the distance vector routing algorithm too, 
but it had nothing in common with DECnet other than the fact it used DMC-11s to 
communicate.  As far as I know none of this has been preserved, unfortunately.

paul

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> comma, ignoring IBM.

(correction)

--
Will

RE: 50 yrs. ago today

[Dave Wade via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk  On Behalf Of William Donzelli
> via cctalk
> Sent: 30 October 2019 10:49
> To: allison via cctalk 
> Subject: Re: 50 yrs. ago today
> 
> > Funny thing was DECnet was in 1983 the largest world wide network
> > period.
> 
> comma, ignoring SNA.

I am not so sure. Initially IBM's internal VNET network (and BITENT) didn't use 
SNA they used bisync RSCS (for mail and files) and bisync 3270 lines handled by 
PVM  (Passthrough Virtual machine) 
Native SNA didn't come to VM until very late in the day

> 
> --
> Will


Dave

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> Funny thing was DECnet was in 1983 the largest world wide network
> period.

comma, ignoring SNA.

--
Will

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019, 4:38 PM Rich Alderson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> From: Liam Proven
> Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 10:01 AM
>
> > On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at 17:32, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
> >  wrote:
>
> >> 50 years ago, inter-computer communication was common enough that it was
> >> a standard option in most vendors' catalogs.
>
> >> Maybe you've got a digit wrong?
>
> > Tim Berners-Lee says it's the 50th anniversary of the first internet
> > packets. I believe him more than pretty much anyone.
>
> > It's also in multiple computer news stories today.
>
> > The historic event was comms between heterogenous computers over a
> > standardised protocol (IP, I think).
>
> Internet Protocol (IP) was developed in the very late 1970s, with the
> cutover
> of the ARPANET taking place 1/1/83.
>
> Prior to that, the underlying protocol was the one developed by Kleinrock
> et al.
> for the BBN IMP hardware.
>

NCP was the immediate predecessor of TCP/IP. Was that the datagram format,
more or less, 50 years ago?

Warner


> Quit splitting hairs, folks.
>
> New to this list, are you?
>
> Rich
>

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[allison via cctalk]

On 10/29/19 8:50 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote:
> We celebrated the 40th anniversary of the Internet less than 2 years
> ago:
> 
>> https://computerhistory.org/blog/born-in-a-van-happy-40th-birthday-to-the-internet/
> 
> The ARPAnet was a WAN (wide area network) and not an Internet, but it
> was one of the three networks involved in that first test on November
> 22, 1977 (after a two network test the previous year). The option to use
> TCP/IP in addition to the native NCP became popular on the ARPAnet to
> the point that NCP was turned off in 1983. It was hardly the only
> network to get assimilated into the Internet, but it was the one with
> the most impact. That makes the 50th anniversary of the first ARPAnet
> packet an important milestone in Internet pre-history.
> 
> -- Jecel
> 

The whole story of what was going on was far more complex and interesting.

Funny thing was DECnet was in 1983 the largest world wide network
period.  By then is was well over 300 nodes and climbing fast.
And none of it used IP or NCP though it did transport P packets
encapsulated using DECnet.  A lot of DEC hardware was involved
in the DARPA/Arpanet.

The network wars were warming up about then (1982ish) and it
would take till the late 80s early 90s for IP to win that war.
The big explosion was WWW.

Other names or routable networks, Banyan vines, and IPX come
to mind besides DECNET Phase III and IV.

Allison

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

On 10/29/19 5:50 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote:

The ARPAnet was a WAN (wide area network) and not an Internet, but it
was one of the three networks involved in that first test on November
22, 1977 (after a two network test the previous year). The option to use
TCP/IP in addition to the native NCP became popular on the ARPAnet to
the point that NCP was turned off in 1983. It was hardly the only
network to get assimilated into the Internet, but it was the one with
the most impact. That makes the 50th anniversary of the first ARPAnet
packet an important milestone in Internet pre-history.



On Tue, 29 Oct 2019, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

Doesn't AUTODIN precede ARPAnet by a few years?


How did Licklider's "Intergalactic Network" fit in?


And, was that a factor in Gary Kildall's choosing the name "Intergalactic 
Digital Research"?



Or, was everything beyond what was current called "intergalactic"?

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[allison via cctalk]

On 10/29/19 8:21 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:
>>> The first "internet" packet was certainly a significant event.
> 
> On Tue, 29 Oct 2019, Paul Koning wrote:
>> Indeed.  So "remote communication between heterogeneous computers"
>> would probably be a good description.
> 
> not so sure, . . . I think that there had been others.  BUT, first with
> the IP protocol, . . .

Maybe so, likely UUCP first.  IP networks were a thing that sorta grew
as standard developed.  Either way it was well before the late 70s.

Also Aloha-net was when?  I thought that was the first wide area network
that also used radios for links.

Generally "first" works if your specific enough.  But in the old
Arpanet days if you said that on a list and were incomplete or wrong
you got your head handed to you upside down.  Sometimes gently, maybe.
;-)

Allison

> 
>> I'm not sure it's "bogus" but you have to understand the qualifiers.
>> Columbus is a good example, because it's well known that other
>> Europeans traveled to America quite some time before he did.  However,
>> those earlier visits made no lasting impression on history, while the
>> one Columbus made did.
> 
> so, . . .
> "first" means earliest that WE are aware of, . . . "first" means the one
> that our schoolbooks talk about, . . . Being in the history books may
> mean "most important", but not "first"; the textbooks in the schools are
> astonishingly inaccurate.  And, yes, some of them are going to say that
> Steve Jobs invented computers.
> 
>> But it was first in the same sense that the Vikings were first to
>> America.
> 
> There were some Asians? quite a bit earlier.  The residents did not
> evolve here.

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/29/19 5:50 PM, Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk wrote:

> The ARPAnet was a WAN (wide area network) and not an Internet, but it
> was one of the three networks involved in that first test on November
> 22, 1977 (after a two network test the previous year). The option to use
> TCP/IP in addition to the native NCP became popular on the ARPAnet to
> the point that NCP was turned off in 1983. It was hardly the only
> network to get assimilated into the Internet, but it was the one with
> the most impact. That makes the 50th anniversary of the first ARPAnet
> packet an important milestone in Internet pre-history.

Doesn't AUTODIN precede ARPAnet by a few years?

--Chuck

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Jecel Assumpcao Jr. via cctalk]

We celebrated the 40th anniversary of the Internet less than 2 years
ago:

> https://computerhistory.org/blog/born-in-a-van-happy-40th-birthday-to-the-internet/

The ARPAnet was a WAN (wide area network) and not an Internet, but it
was one of the three networks involved in that first test on November
22, 1977 (after a two network test the previous year). The option to use
TCP/IP in addition to the native NCP became popular on the ARPAnet to
the point that NCP was turned off in 1983. It was hardly the only
network to get assimilated into the Internet, but it was the one with
the most impact. That makes the 50th anniversary of the first ARPAnet
packet an important milestone in Internet pre-history.

-- Jecel

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

The first "internet" packet was certainly a significant event.


On Tue, 29 Oct 2019, Paul Koning wrote:
Indeed.  So "remote communication between heterogeneous computers" would 
probably be a good description.


not so sure, . . . I think that there had been others.  BUT, first with 
the IP protocol, . . .


I'm not sure it's "bogus" but you have to understand the qualifiers. 
Columbus is a good example, because it's well known that other Europeans 
traveled to America quite some time before he did.  However, those 
earlier visits made no lasting impression on history, while the one 
Columbus made did.


so, . . .
"first" means earliest that WE are aware of, . . . 
"first" means the one that our schoolbooks talk about, . . . 
Being in the history books may mean "most important", but not "first"; the 
textbooks in the schools are astonishingly inaccurate.  And, yes, some of 
them are going to say that Steve Jobs invented computers.


But it was first in the same sense that the Vikings were first to 
America.


There were some Asians? quite a bit earlier.  The residents did not evolve 
here.

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Oct 29, 2019, at 3:40 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> ...
> 
> The first "internet" packet was certainly a significant event.

Indeed.  So "remote communication between heterogeneous computers" would 
probably be a good description. 

> But, calling it "The first inter-computer communication" is comparable to 
> saying that Columbus was the first to think that the world was round and 
> discovered America, or that Ford invented the automobile, or that Bill Gates 
> invented software or at least operating systems, or that Steve Jobs invented 
> computers.

Certainly multiple computers were interconnected quite some time before, at 
least within a room.  Multi-mainframe computers such as CDC 6000 series, not to 
mention CPU to PPU in those same machines.  Large computers with smaller ones 
as communication front ends going back at least to the mid 1960s (EL-X8 with 
PDP-8 front end, "Wammes" timesharing system).  And so on.

> ...
> "First"s are usually expanded into things that they aren't, and almost always 
> fail to acknowledge those less "famous" who were already doing it.
> 
> OK, I claim to be the first to say "first" is a bogus way to describe any 
> historical event.  It is how non-historians fail to comprehend historians.

I'm not sure it's "bogus" but you have to understand the qualifiers.  Columbus 
is a good example, because it's well known that other Europeans traveled to 
America quite some time before he did.  However, those earlier visits made no 
lasting impression on history, while the one Columbus made did.

There are other examples.  I'm playing with one right now, the invention of FM. 
 Usually attributed to Edwin Armstrong, who indeed was first in the way 
Columbus was.  But a different system for sending FM was invented in 1919 in 
Holland and used for 5 years for a commercial broadcasting station.  That 
particular system then disappeared and was never used again.  But it was first 
in the same sense that the Vikings were first to America.

paul

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/29/19 4:19 PM, Fred Cisin via cctalk wrote:

> None of the objections to "first inter computer communication" should
> diminish the importance of the "first packet of the internet".  It was
> surely a moment of rejoicing when it finally worked.

I suspect that the first inter-computer communication occurred during
the 1930s or thereabouts when one Langley employee asked another if
she'd like to have lunch.

--Chuck

RE: 50 yrs. ago today

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

Maybe you've got a digit wrong?


On Tue, 29 Oct 2019, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote:

500 years ago?  A pair of abaci (or abacuses?) linked with strings?


It has been said that when more digits were needed, that two abaci were 
put together, . . .


"a digit wrong" could also mean 60 or 70 instead of 50

There is nothing to indicate that the Antikythera had any communications 
capabilities.


The first known documented use of "computer" in English is 400 years ago.
In those days, it was somebody who computes.  Now, it is something that 
computes.


BUT, if we drop the English ethnocentricity, Pliny the elder said,
"latitudo sane computetur", referring to computing the size of Asia.
And from there, quite likely some unrecorded references to the "computers" 
doing the computing.


Among people who compute[d], there was certainly communication.
There must have been inter-computer communication, or where would little 
computers come from?


The "first" commercial modem is stated as being 1962.  But, there were 
plenty of computers directly connected to each other before that.



None of the objections to "first inter computer communication" should 
diminish the importance of the "first packet of the internet".  It was 
surely a moment of rejoicing when it finally worked.



--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Fred Cisin via cctalk]

The first inter-computer  communication happened 50 years ago today. L.
Kleinrock part of that historic moment, said, and I paraphrase here,
ARPANET was the instrument that was to enable computers to talk to each
other remotely. He sent ~@~\LO~@~] because the system crashed(how

surprising was
that!) This was the precursor to the inter-net, moving from the 

intra-net.

On Tue, 29 Oct 2019, Liam Proven via cctalk wrote:

Tim Berners-Lee says it's the 50th anniversary of the first internet
packets. I believe him more than pretty much anyone.
It's also in multiple computer news stories today.
The historic event was comms between heterogenous computers over a
standardised protocol (IP, I think).
Quit splitting hairs, folks.


The first "internet" packet was certainly a significant event.

But, calling it "The first inter-computer communication" is comparable to 
saying that Columbus was the first to think that the world was round and 
discovered America, or that Ford invented the automobile, or that Bill 
Gates invented software or at least operating systems, or that Steve Jobs 
invented computers.


Some may beg to differ, or point out that those are not accurate 
descriptions of the events.


"First"s are usually expanded into things that they aren't, and almost 
always fail to acknowledge those less "famous" who were already doing it.



OK, I claim to be the first to say "first" is a bogus way to describe any 
historical event.  It is how non-historians fail to comprehend historians.


--
Grumpy Ol' Fred ci...@xenosoft.com

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/29/19 12:11 PM, ED SHARPE via cctalk wrote:

> The historic event was comms between heterogenous computers over a
> standardised protocol (IP, I think

So, more properly--50 years of IP?

--Chuck

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[dwight via cctalk]

Until recently, a computer was a person that did calculations. I suspect that 
if they we smart enough to do the calculations they were smart enough to talk 
to each other.
Dwight


From: cctalk  on behalf of ED SHARPE via cctalk 

Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 12:11 PM
To: cctalk@classiccmp.org 
Subject: Re: 50 yrs. ago today

I will have to see if our  old next  boots!  -Ed#

In a message dated 10/29/2019 10:01:21 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:
Tim Berners-Lee says it's the 50th anniversary of the first internet
packets. I believe him more than pretty much anyone.

It's also in multiple computer news stories today.

The historic event was comms between heterogenous computers over a
standardised protocol (IP, I think

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/29/19 11:39 AM, Rich Alderson via cctalk wrote:

> 
> New to this list, are you?
> 


EVERYONE knows that Steve Jobs invented the microcomputer and Nikola
Tesla invented alternating current.

--Chuck

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/29/19 11:53 AM, William Sudbrink via cctalk wrote:
> Chuck Guzis wrote
>> 50 years ago, inter-computer communication was common enough that it was
>> a standard option in most vendors' catalogs.
>>
>> Maybe you've got a digit wrong?
> 
> 500 years ago?  A pair of abaci (or abacuses?) linked with strings?

I wonder if computer-to-computer connection dates back 70 years. (5->7)
Same number digits, just one of them changed.

--Chuck

RE: 50 yrs. ago today

[Rich Alderson via cctalk]

From: Liam Proven
Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2019 10:01 AM

> On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at 17:32, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
>  wrote:

>> 50 years ago, inter-computer communication was common enough that it was
>> a standard option in most vendors' catalogs.

>> Maybe you've got a digit wrong?

> Tim Berners-Lee says it's the 50th anniversary of the first internet
> packets. I believe him more than pretty much anyone.

> It's also in multiple computer news stories today.

> The historic event was comms between heterogenous computers over a
> standardised protocol (IP, I think).

Internet Protocol (IP) was developed in the very late 1970s, with the cutover
of the ARPANET taking place 1/1/83.

Prior to that, the underlying protocol was the one developed by Kleinrock et al.
for the BBN IMP hardware.

> Quit splitting hairs, folks.

New to this list, are you?

Rich

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[ED SHARPE via cctalk]

I will have to see if our  old next  boots!  -Ed#

In a message dated 10/29/2019 10:01:21 AM US Mountain Standard Time, 
cctalk@classiccmp.org writes:
Tim Berners-Lee says it's the 50th anniversary of the first internet
packets. I believe him more than pretty much anyone.

It's also in multiple computer news stories today.

The historic event was comms between heterogenous computers over a
standardised protocol (IP, I think

RE: 50 yrs. ago today

[William Sudbrink via cctalk]

Chuck Guzis wrote
> 50 years ago, inter-computer communication was common enough that it was
> a standard option in most vendors' catalogs.
> 
> Maybe you've got a digit wrong?

500 years ago?  A pair of abaci (or abacuses?) linked with strings?


-- 
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Nemo via cctalk]

On 29/10/2019, Murray McCullough via cctalk 
wrote (in part):
> The first inter-computer  communication happened 50 years ago today. L.
> Kleinrock part of that historic moment, said, and I paraphrase here,
> ARPANET was the instrument that was to enable computers to talk to each
> other remotely. He sent “LO” because the system crashed(how surprising was
> that!)

According to "Where Wizards stay up late", the FEP crashed because of
an "optimization" that stuffed "gin" into the buffer faster than the
FEP could handle it.

N.

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Liam Proven via cctalk]

On Tue, 29 Oct 2019 at 17:32, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> 50 years ago, inter-computer communication was common enough that it was
> a standard option in most vendors' catalogs.
>
> Maybe you've got a digit wrong?

Tim Berners-Lee says it's the 50th anniversary of the first internet
packets. I believe him more than pretty much anyone.

It's also in multiple computer news stories today.

The historic event was comms between heterogenous computers over a
standardised protocol (IP, I think).

Quit splitting hairs, folks.

-- 
Liam Proven - Profile: https://about.me/liamproven
Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk - Google Mail/Hangouts/Plus: lpro...@gmail.com
Twitter/Facebook/Flickr: lproven - Skype/LinkedIn: liamproven
UK: +44 7939-087884 - ČR (+ WhatsApp/Telegram/Signal): +420 702 829 053

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 10/29/19 6:15 AM, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:
> The first inter-computer  communication happened 50 years ago today. L.
> Kleinrock part of that historic moment, said, and I paraphrase here,
> ARPANET was the instrument that was to enable computers to talk to each
> other remotely. He sent “LO” because the system crashed(how surprising was
> that!) This was the precursor to the inter-net, moving from the intra-net.

50 years ago, inter-computer communication was common enough that it was
a standard option in most vendors' catalogs.

Maybe you've got a digit wrong?

--Chuck

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

On Tue, Oct 29, 2019 at 10:21 AM William Donzelli via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> > You may want to reword that statement ("first inter-computer
> > communication"). The SAGE Direction Center computers were talking to each
> > other (cross-tell) in 1958, via Bell 101 modems.
>
> "First" is a dangerous word, isn't it?
>
> --
> Will
>

I wonder who said that first.

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[William Donzelli via cctalk]

> You may want to reword that statement ("first inter-computer
> communication"). The SAGE Direction Center computers were talking to each
> other (cross-tell) in 1958, via Bell 101 modems.

"First" is a dangerous word, isn't it?

--
Will

Re: 50 yrs. ago today

[Mike Loewen via cctalk]

On Tue, 29 Oct 2019, Murray McCullough via cctalk wrote:


The first inter-computer  communication happened 50 years ago today. L.
Kleinrock part of that historic moment, said, and I paraphrase here,
ARPANET was the instrument that was to enable computers to talk to each
other remotely. He sent ?LO? because the system crashed(how surprising was
that!) This was the precursor to the inter-net, moving from the intra-net.

Happy computing all!


   You may want to reword that statement ("first inter-computer 
communication"). The SAGE Direction Center computers were talking to each 
other (cross-tell) in 1958, via Bell 101 modems.



Mike Loewen mloe...@cpumagic.scol.pa.us
Old Technology  http://q7.neurotica.com/Oldtech/

50 yrs. ago today

[Murray McCullough via cctalk]

The first inter-computer  communication happened 50 years ago today. L.
Kleinrock part of that historic moment, said, and I paraphrase here,
ARPANET was the instrument that was to enable computers to talk to each
other remotely. He sent “LO” because the system crashed(how surprising was
that!) This was the precursor to the inter-net, moving from the intra-net.

 Happy computing all!

Murray  ☺


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