Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Jun 8, 2017, at 8:23 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 06.06.2017 20:56, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:
>> Agreed, and packs from the 2311, RP03, RK05 era are washable.  In fact, I 
>> remember a pack washing machine.
> Hm, hm.
> I successfully cleaned many RK05 packs from gooey foam and other residue, 
> even after a crash. But... I usually use 100% isopropylic alcohol and some 
> cleenex.
> And: The DEC manual says that one should be only carefully blow onto the 
> platters; spitting onto them has to be avoided because the finish is not 
> water proof...!
> Ok, after days being submerged... We will see.

Optimal is Kimwipe or some other lint free cleaning cloth.  Paper tissues are 
likely to shed dust.

For blowing, canned air or dry nitrogen or the like is best.  Breathing is not 
such a good idea.  Air from a compressor may be ok if the compressor is 
oil-less (airbrush type), but workshop piston compressors put oil in the air 
and you definitely don't need that.

paul

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk]

On 06.06.2017 20:56, Paul Koning via cctalk wrote:

Agreed, and packs from the 2311, RP03, RK05 era are washable.  In fact, I 
remember a pack washing machine.

Hm, hm.
I successfully cleaned many RK05 packs from gooey foam and other 
residue, even after a crash. But... I usually use 100% isopropylic 
alcohol and some cleenex.
And: The DEC manual says that one should be only carefully blow onto the 
platters; spitting onto them has to be avoided because the finish is not 
water proof...!

Ok, after days being submerged... We will see.

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk]

On 06.06.2017 20:26, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:

On 6/6/17 6:10 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote:

And I have cables and lots of spare heads: All submerged since Saturday. I most 
probly won't try to recover the packs

If they really are that rare you may want to reconsider.

The cables have been rescued and washed.
The special tools and spares have been washed and cleaned. Looks still 
usable. The spare bearings don't look perfect but might be still usable.
The heads (probably for my very old discretely built CDC drive) have 
been rescued but still sit in their detoriated and soaked foam packages.


I can do only a bit from time to time. Hopefully the heads survive. It 
looks as they don't rust (in contrast to the bearings and some screws 
which instantly became a bit rusty).


So I'm not careless. But I have a job and some other duties, the stuff 
is not directly at home. So it takes a bit.

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 6/6/17 11:56 AM, Paul Koning wrote:
> 
>> On Jun 6, 2017, at 2:26 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk  
>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 6/6/17 6:10 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote:
>>
>>> And I have cables and lots of spare heads: All submerged since Saturday. I 
>>> most probly won't try to recover the packs
>>
>> If they really are that rare you may want to reconsider.
> 
> Agreed, and packs from the 2311, RP03, RK05 era are washable.
The binder/oxide is quite thick on them. The only thing they can't survive is 
surface damage that roughens the surface
to the point where the heads crash. I had a couple I was working on recently 
where the plastic catch broke that held the
spring for the door flap and that gouged up the first 1/2" of the top surface. 
I wasn't very happy, since the rest of
the surface was clean.

I hadn't realized it before, but the 2nd generation (2200bpi vs 1100) doesn't 
have write precompensation, and there are
some real kludges in the read recovery circuit to deal with pulse crowding. 
This appears to be particularly troublesome
on the inner tracks. Tuning this is a real PITA, especially on drives used for 
Altos, which pack extra bits on the
sectors for a tag field.

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

I'm not positive what pack washing machines used.  Distilled water seems 
plausible, perhaps with some sort of mild cleaner.  Keep in mind I'm talking 
about packs, no electronics there.

Then again, many electronics are designed to be washed in water (as part of the 
manufacturing process).

paul

> On Jun 6, 2017, at 3:18 PM, Anders Nelson via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Did people actually wash disk packs with water or some electronics-friendly
> solution?

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Anders Nelson via cctalk]

Did people actually wash disk packs with water or some electronics-friendly
solution?

--
Anders Nelson

+1 (517) 775-6129

www.erogear.com

On Jun 6, 2017 11:56 AM, "Paul Koning via cctalk" 
wrote:


> On Jun 6, 2017, at 2:26 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk 
wrote:
>
>
>
> On 6/6/17 6:10 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote:
>
>> And I have cables and lots of spare heads: All submerged since Saturday.
I most probly won't try to recover the packs
>
> If they really are that rare you may want to reconsider.

Agreed, and packs from the 2311, RP03, RK05 era are washable.  In fact, I
remember a pack washing machine.  And I remember a 1311 pack (from a 1620)
that had hydraulic oil all over it from an actuator leak; it was cleaned
with isopropyl alcohol, as were the heads, and the result was good as new.
All that was needed for repair was a new gasket and a fluid top-off.

paul

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Jun 6, 2017, at 2:26 PM, Al Kossow via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/6/17 6:10 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> And I have cables and lots of spare heads: All submerged since Saturday. I 
>> most probly won't try to recover the packs
> 
> If they really are that rare you may want to reconsider.

Agreed, and packs from the 2311, RP03, RK05 era are washable.  In fact, I 
remember a pack washing machine.  And I remember a 1311 pack (from a 1620) that 
had hydraulic oil all over it from an actuator leak; it was cleaned with 
isopropyl alcohol, as were the heads, and the result was good as new.  All that 
was needed for repair was a new gasket and a fluid top-off.

paul

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 6/6/17 6:10 AM, Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk wrote:

> And I have cables and lots of spare heads: All submerged since Saturday. I 
> most probly won't try to recover the packs

If they really are that rare you may want to reconsider.

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Philipp Hachtmann via cctalk]

I have some submerged packs that look like the one in the auction. Wet 
since Saturday :-(




Here's a link to the drive that I'd like to restore some day:

http://www.digitalheritage.de/peripherals/cdc/854/854.htm


I think I have the same :-)

And I have cables and lots of spare heads: All submerged since Saturday. 
I most probly won't try to recover the packs but I will try to recover 
the heads. Yesterday they still looked good. But still all in water.


We had a disaster... I was not carelessly storing the stuff...

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Jun 5, 2017, at 10:33 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
>> ...
>> The platters can be replaced with ones from the single-platter IBM 2315 (ie. 
>> RK05) and use similar head technology which is pretty rugged.
> 
> Yes, I kept the disk packs. However, I guess that one need to have special 
> alignment tools to replace single platters of a disk pack. Or is a reformat 
> enough, as long as the servo disk surface is error-free and available?

Not all disks have servo on disk.  1311 if I remember right simply has detents 
in the head actuator to define the track positions.  RK05 has a servo system in 
the actuator, but nothing on the pack.

If you have that kind of pack, replacing the platter centered accurately enough 
that you don't get excessive vibration, then reformatting, should be all you 
need.

paul

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[P Gebhardt via cctalk]

Hello Al,

>> The surfaces of the disk packs of type 9871 or 871 that came with it where 
>> corroded and are not usable anymore. 
>
>Did you keep them?
>
>The platters can be replaced with ones from the single-platter IBM 2315 (ie. 
>RK05) and use similar head technology which is pretty rugged.

>

Yes, I kept the disk packs. However, I guess that one need to have special 
alignment tools to replace single platters of a disk pack. Or is a reformat 
enough, as long as the servo disk surface is error-free and available?

>The two drives you have are equivalent to IBM 2311 and 2314, which both use 
>hydraulic actuators.

>
I didn't know that they were equivalent! Are you sure it's the drives 
themselves that are equivalent between IBM and CDC, not the disk pack specs for 
both drives? I assumed that the IBM and CDC drives wth hydraulic actuators were 
independent developments...

>We were constrained at the time by what we could take from Dortmund. As it was 
>it was a very expensive move.

>I'm glad that so much of what we couldn't take was saved.

>From what I found regarding remaining documents hidden inside some cabinets in 
>Dortmund, I scanned them in already and most of them were uploaded to 
>bitsavers in the past. 


All the best,
Pierre

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 06/04/2017 02:43 PM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote:

> Note as a side story, they had been doing something similar to a
> source control program, so though the above sounds like a fantastic
> amount of software, some times one or two card drawer racks contained
> dozens of revisions of the same program.  From a practical
> standpoint, I had to determine the last version and save them.  Of
> course I could now have had the largest 80 column card collection
> left (probably) if I'd saved the lot.

It probably wouldn't have helped to preserve the code.  At CDC, source
code control started rather early in the 1960s, so there was lots of
tape with millions of lines of source code hanging about in rack after
rack of tapes.

Other than the stuff in private collections, I doubt that much of any of
it has survived.When I left CDC, I was told to turn in any tapes or
copies of software that I had in my possession, as much of the work was
classified.

Other than the stuff that made its way to university collections
(nothing that I ever worked on, obviously), it's all gone as far as I
know.   Even the documentation for much of it, since that also was
classified.

But I keep wondering if after someone sheds his mortal coil, his
relatives won't turn up a copy of, aay, the ROVER software.

One can hope, I suppose.

--Chuck

RE: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim
> stephens via cctalk
> Sent: 04 June 2017 22:43
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts 
> Subject: Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk
> drives to spare with?
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/4/2017 2:11 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
> > In my case this is not with the intention of running anything, I don't have 
> > an
> ICL 1905E (!). All I want to do is recover the data on the disk as it may 
> contain
> what is possibly the only copy anywhere of an operating system that was built
> at Manchester University.
> >
> > Regards
> Rob,
> many thanks for recovering data.  


Well, I haven't recovered anything yet 

My comment was just because of that blob
> of angst I get in the pit of my stomach from time to time thinking about these
> things and them crashing.  Of course it is really wonderful you have saved the
> media.  I hope that someone has a means to recover the pack and you have
> success.


Actually the pack is not in my possession, it is still at Manchester 
University, in a display case. I am pretty sure that if there was a realistic 
chance of recovering data from it that they would be happy to try it.

Rob

> 
> When I worked for Microdata corporation, their earlier work was contained in
> a 30' x 5' bank of 80 column card drawers.  When they moved from the facility
> that the work had been performed, they decided since they had converted to
> totally different technologies to scrap all of it.
> 
> I was told that the entire pile was mine to have and deal with.  I
> digitized copies of every unique product in the pile and save them.   I
> have since had them converted to images, and Al has them @ CHM.  but so
> much of this happens and there is no trace left of the media.
> 
> Note as a side story, they had been doing something similar to a source 
> control
> program, so though the above sounds like a fantastic amount of software, some
> times one or two card drawer racks contained dozens of revisions of the same
> program.  From a practical standpoint, I had to determine the last version and
> save them.  Of course I could now have had the largest 80 column card
> collection left (probably) if I'd saved the lot.
> 
> would have been fun to have saved it and have it @ the CHM or some museum.
> thanks
> Jim

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Guy Sotomayor Jr via cctalk]

> On Jun 4, 2017, at 12:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On 06/04/2017 11:47 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> On 6/4/17 3:35 AM, ANDY HOLT via cctalk wrote:
>> 
>>> I would think it "not too difficult" to build a modern controller
>> 
>> The electronics isn't the problem. Getting a poorly stored
>> electromechanical device to not turn your or any other pack into a
>> pile of aluminum shavings is the problem.
> 
> It doesn't even have to be poorly stored.   I recall a note left by an
> operator detailing how, with a single bad 844 pack, he managed to
> clobber 7 drives and 13 packs.
> 

This is why I’m *so* happy the that 3340 drives for my IBM 4331 are
“winchester” drives.  The heads are *in* the packs.  So there is *no*
issue about one pack causing a head crash on another pack.  I’m 
just hoping that the 14 packs that I *do* have are in decent enough
condition to be usable once I get to the point of wanting to actually
do something with them.

TTFN - Guy

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 6/4/2017 2:11 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:

In my case this is not with the intention of running anything, I don't have an 
ICL 1905E (!). All I want to do is recover the data on the disk as it may 
contain what is possibly the only copy anywhere of an operating system that was 
built at Manchester University.

Regards

Rob,
many thanks for recovering data.  My comment was just because of that 
blob of angst I get in the pit of my stomach from time to time thinking 
about these things and them crashing.  Of course it is really wonderful 
you have saved the media.  I hope that someone has a means to recover 
the pack and you have success.


When I worked for Microdata corporation, their earlier work was 
contained in a 30' x 5' bank of 80 column card drawers.  When they moved 
from the facility that the work had been performed, they decided since 
they had converted to totally different technologies to scrap all of it.


I was told that the entire pile was mine to have and deal with.  I 
digitized copies of every unique product in the pile and save them.   I 
have since had them converted to images, and Al has them @ CHM.  but so 
much of this happens and there is no trace left of the media.


Note as a side story, they had been doing something similar to a source 
control program, so though the above sounds like a fantastic amount of 
software, some times one or two card drawer racks contained dozens of 
revisions of the same program.  From a practical standpoint, I had to 
determine the last version and save them.  Of course I could now have 
had the largest 80 column card collection left (probably) if I'd saved 
the lot.


would have been fun to have saved it and have it @ the CHM or some museum.
thanks
Jim

RE: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of jim
> stephens via cctalk
> Sent: 04 June 2017 21:41
> To: Chuck Guzis via cctalk 
> Subject: Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk
> drives to spare with?
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/4/2017 12:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
> > It doesn't even have to be poorly stored.
> I moved a system with 4 300mb memorex 10 (or so) platter drives eons ago,
> which had been running for a year or more.  After setup and service it ran 2
> hours before eating one of the drives.  That was and is the last time I'll 
> ever run
> drives w/o sealed HDAs.
> 
> Hate so much of the old stuff we mess with needs removable platter drives to
> run.  Had no patience then, even less now.
> 
> I'll take emulated drives or whatever attached to the artifact systems any 
> time,
> vs. running original disks subsystems.  It's good that the work to get the
> replacements going is being done now while the people still familiar with the
> OSs are still around or people who can do that, as of course doing it later 
> if one
> wants to restore and run systems like that further down the road will make it
> much harder to do.
> 


In my case this is not with the intention of running anything, I don't have an 
ICL 1905E (!). All I want to do is recover the data on the disk as it may 
contain what is possibly the only copy anywhere of an operating system that was 
built at Manchester University.

Regards

Rob

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[jim stephens via cctalk]

On 6/4/2017 12:02 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:

It doesn't even have to be poorly stored.
I moved a system with 4 300mb memorex 10 (or so) platter drives eons 
ago, which had been running for a year or more.  After setup and service 
it ran 2 hours before eating one of the drives.  That was and is the 
last time I'll ever run drives w/o sealed HDAs.


Hate so much of the old stuff we mess with needs removable platter 
drives to run.  Had no patience then, even less now.


I'll take emulated drives or whatever attached to the artifact systems 
any time, vs. running original disks subsystems.  It's good that the 
work to get the replacements going is being done now while the people 
still familiar with the OSs are still around or people who can do that, 
as of course doing it later if one wants to restore and run systems like 
that further down the road will make it much harder to do.


thanks
jim

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 06/04/2017 11:47 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote:
> 
> 
> On 6/4/17 3:35 AM, ANDY HOLT via cctalk wrote:
> 
>> I would think it "not too difficult" to build a modern controller
> 
> The electronics isn't the problem. Getting a poorly stored
> electromechanical device to not turn your or any other pack into a
> pile of aluminum shavings is the problem.

It doesn't even have to be poorly stored.   I recall a note left by an
operator detailing how, with a single bad 844 pack, he managed to
clobber 7 drives and 13 packs.

His detailed description of events reminded me of Gerard Hoffnung's
"Bricklayer's Lament":

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZUJLO6lMhI

--Chuck

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[ANDY HOLT via cctalk]

I am looking for someone who can read an ICL EDS8 disk pack. I am told that it 
would have been used in an ICT type 2802/2 drive on an ICL 1905E, but that it 
is also compatible with an IBM 2311 disk drive and that it uses a mechanical 
assembly based on a CDC 9450. Given the mention of the 2311 above, I wonder if 
this means that you have facilities to read an EDS8 pack?

It might be similar to a 2311 but it's not quite the same.
In modern terminology the ICL uses hard sectors whereas the IBM uses soft 
sectors.

ICL calls sectors "buckets" and there are 8 128 word buckets to a track. (A 
word being 24 bits = 4 characters)
If I remember correctly (see if I can find a copy of the programmers reference 
manual) cylinder 0 is the directory; 
 on UDAS executives (that 1905E would probably have run E6RM) the next three 
(?) cylinders are normally reserved for Exec overlays.
I think George3 behaved similarly except that it had its own directory 
structure that mapped onto the drive directory in some manner.

I would think it "not too difficult" to build a modern controller that could 
read that pack on either type of drive – interpreting the results might be 
trickier.

Andy

RE: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Al Kossow
> via cctalk
> Sent: 03 June 2017 18:49
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk
> drives to spare with?
> 
> 
> 
> On 6/3/17 10:21 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote:
> 
> > The surfaces of the disk packs of type 9871 or 871 that came with it where
> corroded and are not usable anymore.
> 
> Did you keep them?
> 
> The platters can be replaced with ones from the single-platter IBM 2315 (ie.
> RK05) and use similar head technology which is pretty rugged.
> 
> The two drives you have are equivalent to IBM 2311 and 2314, which both use
> hydraulic actuators.
> 


Sorry I can't help with this request, but I wonder if possibly you (Pierre) may 
be able to help me?

I am looking for someone who can read an ICL EDS8 disk pack. I am told that it 
would have been used in an ICT type 2802/2 drive on an ICL 1905E, but that it 
is also compatible with an IBM 2311 disk drive and that it uses a mechanical 
assembly based on a CDC 9450. Given the mention of the 2311 above, I wonder if 
this means that you have facilities to read an EDS8 pack?

Regards

Rob

Re: Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[Al Kossow via cctalk]

On 6/3/17 10:21 AM, P Gebhardt via cctalk wrote:

> The surfaces of the disk packs of type 9871 or 871 that came with it where 
> corroded and are not usable anymore. 

Did you keep them?

The platters can be replaced with ones from the single-platter IBM 2315 (ie. 
RK05) and use similar head technology
which is pretty rugged.

The two drives you have are equivalent to IBM 2311 and 2314, which both use 
hydraulic actuators.


We were constrained at the time by what we could take from Dortmund. As it was 
it was a very expensive move.
I'm glad that so much of what we couldn't take was saved.

Anybody has Control Data (CDC) disk packs for 841 and 844 disk drives to spare with?

[P Gebhardt via cctalk]

Hello everybody,

recently, there was an US epay auction with a CDC 849 disk pack. 


http://www.ebay.com/itm/292129988099

This pack is for the early CDC 851/852 disk storage drives and thus not of 
interest for me, as the packs I am looking for my 854 drive have a different 
amount of sectors per track and these packs are numbered: 9851 or 851. 


Here's a link to the drive that I'd like to restore some day:

http://www.digitalheritage.de/peripherals/cdc/854/854.htm

Same question regarding the 841 Multiple Disk Drive in the collection:
http://www.digitalheritage.de/peripherals/cdc/841/841.htm

The surfaces of the disk packs of type 9871 or 871 that came with it where 
corroded and are not usable anymore. 


These packs and the drives seem rare and though I've been looking for these for 
some years now, I don't came across them :-(

Thus my question to anybody having disk packs of these types:
Would you spare a disk pack, even if in unknown working condition? I am located 
in Germany.
Thanks in advance for getting in contact with me!


All the best,
Pierre

--- 

Pierre's collection of classic computers moved to: http://www.digitalheritage.de