Anyone Have a Working DEC Pro 350?

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

Is there anyone who has a working DEC Pro 350 who would be prepared to probe
a few pins on the system board with an oscilloscope? I'd like to understand
what signals I should be expecting in the reset logic, which seems to be
quite complex.

 

Thanks

 

Rob

Re: DEC Pro 350

[Kurt Hamm via cctalk]

 Yeah, the fact that the issue is intermittent (mostly not booting) is
weird.

Just to be clear,  You mentioned a 25 pin connector.  My understanding is
that the console port is the printer port which is a 9 pin connector.

Thanks for the info.  I have ordered the stuff to make a cable so should be
able to test console port this weekend.

Kurt


On Mon, Feb 26, 2018 at 9:23 AM, Paul Koning  wrote:

>
>
> > On Feb 25, 2018, at 5:39 PM, Kurt Hamm via cctalk 
> wrote:
> >
> > Thanks for the suggestions. Interestingly, upon first boot I was able to
> > get the hard disk controller error with the picture of the computer.
> Then,
> > sure subsequent reboots failed to display anything.
> >
> > I removed all the cards and booted with no luck.
>
> That would be the expected result if the status lights indicate a
> motherboard failure -- it means you're not reaching the point where it
> looks at the I/O cards.
>
> > It looks like I will need to build a cable to try terminal mode.  I did
> > hook a vt220 with a 9to25 cablw, but didn't get anything.
>
> You need a cable specifically wired as console cable.  Check the technical
> manual for the details.  The DB25 connector is used to connect either a
> (serial) printer or a console, and the two are distinguished by a jumper
> between two of the pins.  So a console cable has that jumper in its
> connector, a printer cable does not.  If you don't have the jumper, the
> speed will be set differently (4800 rather than 9600) and the UART will not
> appear at the console UART address.
>
> paul
>
>

Re: DEC Pro 350

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Kurt Hamm 

> If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate it.

You probably already know this, but... My sense is that a collector of
classic computers has to be able to diagnose and repair at the component
level - get in there with an oscilloscope and a set of prints (creating the
latter, if need be), and find the busted chip/transistor.

It's like collecting old cars - if you collect old cars, you have to be able
to work on them (or like Jay Leno, be rich and hire someone else who can -
although given that Jay worked at an auto dealer 'back in the day', he
apparently does know a fair amount).

Which isn't going to help much with this particular problem, maybe some of
the other replies will help.

Noel

Re: DEC Pro 350

[Paul Koning via cctalk]

> On Feb 25, 2018, at 5:39 PM, Kurt Hamm via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> Thanks for the suggestions. Interestingly, upon first boot I was able to
> get the hard disk controller error with the picture of the computer.  Then,
> sure subsequent reboots failed to display anything.
> 
> I removed all the cards and booted with no luck.

That would be the expected result if the status lights indicate a motherboard 
failure -- it means you're not reaching the point where it looks at the I/O 
cards.

> It looks like I will need to build a cable to try terminal mode.  I did
> hook a vt220 with a 9to25 cablw, but didn't get anything.

You need a cable specifically wired as console cable.  Check the technical 
manual for the details.  The DB25 connector is used to connect either a 
(serial) printer or a console, and the two are distinguished by a jumper 
between two of the pins.  So a console cable has that jumper in its connector, 
a printer cable does not.  If you don't have the jumper, the speed will be set 
differently (4800 rather than 9600) and the UART will not appear at the console 
UART address.

paul

Re: DEC Pro 350

[Kurt Hamm via cctalk]

Thanks for the suggestions. Interestingly, upon first boot I was able to
get the hard disk controller error with the picture of the computer.  Then,
sure subsequent reboots failed to display anything.

I removed all the cards and booted with no luck.

It looks like I will need to build a cable to try terminal mode.  I did
hook a vt220 with a 9to25 cablw, but didn't get anything.

Since successful booting is intermittent, probably a heat or power
problem.  I will continue to try to get terminal mode working.

Kurt

On Feb 25, 2018 3:17 PM, "Mattis Lind" <mattisl...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
>
> fredag 23 februari 2018 skrev Kurt Hamm via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org
> >:
>
>> Well, I bought that DEC Pro 350 on ebay.  It initially booted up and I got
>> the error screen.  The error code I found on the Internet was related to
>> the hard disk controller.  So, I thought I just needed someone to
>> sell/give
>> me some systems disks for the unit and I could try to setup the drive
>> again
>> if it still functioned.
>>
>> Then, it after a couple of restarts (I re-seated the boards and cleaned
>> the
>> connectors) it stopped showing the error screen (with picture of the
>> computer).  All the diagnostic lights are red on the back and nothing ever
>> shows on the screen.  The power comes on and then nothing.
>
>
> The tech manual is :  http://bitsavers.informatik.
> uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/EK-PC350-TM-001_
> Professional_300_Series_Technical_Manual_Dec82.pdf
>
> In case you haven't already found it.
>
> All LED on means sytem module failed. (Page 5-33). Have you checked power
> supply voltages? I would try to remove all option boards and see if that
> makes any difference. The printer port is actually a console port. The
> details is in the manual (page 5-126 and 5-131). I suspect that all leds
> come on if it fails to run the rom based diagnostic. It might have halted
> to uODT in case you could try use the console to see if you could diagnose
> the problem.
>
>
>
>
>> If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate it.  I knew the history of
>> this type of computer and figured it was a long shot.  I am just
>> disappointed to have gotten really nowhere with it.
>>
>> Thanks!
>>
>> Kurt
>>
>
> Good luck!
>
> /Mattis
>

Re: DEC Pro 350

[Mattis Lind via cctalk]

fredag 23 februari 2018 skrev Kurt Hamm via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org>:

> Well, I bought that DEC Pro 350 on ebay.  It initially booted up and I got
> the error screen.  The error code I found on the Internet was related to
> the hard disk controller.  So, I thought I just needed someone to sell/give
> me some systems disks for the unit and I could try to setup the drive again
> if it still functioned.
>
> Then, it after a couple of restarts (I re-seated the boards and cleaned the
> connectors) it stopped showing the error screen (with picture of the
> computer).  All the diagnostic lights are red on the back and nothing ever
> shows on the screen.  The power comes on and then nothing.


The tech manual is :
http://bitsavers.informatik.uni-stuttgart.de/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/EK-PC350-TM-001_Professional_300_Series_Technical_Manual_Dec82.pdf

In case you haven't already found it.

All LED on means sytem module failed. (Page 5-33). Have you checked power
supply voltages? I would try to remove all option boards and see if that
makes any difference. The printer port is actually a console port. The
details is in the manual (page 5-126 and 5-131). I suspect that all leds
come on if it fails to run the rom based diagnostic. It might have halted
to uODT in case you could try use the console to see if you could diagnose
the problem.




> If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate it.  I knew the history of
> this type of computer and figured it was a long shot.  I am just
> disappointed to have gotten really nowhere with it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kurt
>

Good luck!

/Mattis

Re: DEC Pro 350

[Bill Degnan via cctalk]

On Fri, Feb 23, 2018 at 8:10 AM, Kurt Hamm via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org
> wrote:

> Well, I bought that DEC Pro 350 on ebay.  It initially booted up and I got
> the error screen.  The error code I found on the Internet was related to
> the hard disk controller.  So, I thought I just needed someone to sell/give
> me some systems disks for the unit and I could try to setup the drive again
> if it still functioned.
>
> Then, it after a couple of restarts (I re-seated the boards and cleaned the
> connectors) it stopped showing the error screen (with picture of the
> computer).  All the diagnostic lights are red on the back and nothing ever
> shows on the screen.  The power comes on and then nothing.
>
> If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate it.  I knew the history of
> this type of computer and figured it was a long shot.  I am just
> disappointed to have gotten really nowhere with it.
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kurt
>

Kurt,
Sounds like you can't do much of anything but to confirm my understanding...
Can you enter terminal mode?
Can you boot from a diskette?

How confident are you in the power supply?  Have you checked all of the
voltage rails?

Bill

DEC Pro 350

[Kurt Hamm via cctalk]

Well, I bought that DEC Pro 350 on ebay.  It initially booted up and I got
the error screen.  The error code I found on the Internet was related to
the hard disk controller.  So, I thought I just needed someone to sell/give
me some systems disks for the unit and I could try to setup the drive again
if it still functioned.

Then, it after a couple of restarts (I re-seated the boards and cleaned the
connectors) it stopped showing the error screen (with picture of the
computer).  All the diagnostic lights are red on the back and nothing ever
shows on the screen.  The power comes on and then nothing.

If anyone has any thoughts, I would appreciate it.  I knew the history of
this type of computer and figured it was a long shot.  I am just
disappointed to have gotten really nowhere with it.

Thanks!

Kurt

Re: Manx [Was: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?]

[Torfinn Ingolfsen]

On Tue, Sep 6, 2016 at 1:32 PM, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
>
>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Pontus Pihlgren [mailto:pon...@update.uu.se]
>> Sent: 06 September 2016 11:49
>> To: r...@jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
>> Cc: 'Paul Koning' <paulkon...@comcast.net>
>> Subject: Manx [Was: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards -
>> Interchangeability?]
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 05:38:02PM +0100, Rob Jarratt wrote:
>> >
>> > but Manx seems to be in the process of being relocated
>> >
>>
>> Hasn't Manx been in that state for ages?
>>
>> /P
>
> I hadn't noticed until I tried to access it a week or so ago, because I have
> most of the manuals I need locally so I don't check Manx all that often. Is
> there any news on when it might be back though?

I asked about the terminals wiki about a week ago, and got "at least a
couple more weeks" as an answer.

HTH
-- 
Regards,
Torfinn Ingolfsen

RE: Manx [Was: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?]

[Rob Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: Pontus Pihlgren [mailto:pon...@update.uu.se]
> Sent: 06 September 2016 11:49
> To: r...@jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Cc: 'Paul Koning' <paulkon...@comcast.net>
> Subject: Manx [Was: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards -
> Interchangeability?]
> 
> On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 05:38:02PM +0100, Rob Jarratt wrote:
> >
> > but Manx seems to be in the process of being relocated
> >
> 
> Hasn't Manx been in that state for ages?
> 
> /P

I hadn't noticed until I tried to access it a week or so ago, because I have
most of the manuals I need locally so I don't check Manx all that often. Is
there any news on when it might be back though?

Regards

Rob

Manx [Was: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?]

[Pontus Pihlgren]

On Mon, Aug 29, 2016 at 05:38:02PM +0100, Rob Jarratt wrote:
> 
> but Manx seems to be in the process of being relocated
> 

Hasn't Manx been in that state for ages?

/P

Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Eric Smith]

I wrote:
> Mouser has some in
> stock, e.g., the IS41C16105-50KLI in SOJ-42 package at $7.20 each
> (quantity one) or the IS41C16105-50TLI in TSOP-44 package at $7.02
> each (quantity one).

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> The ISSI memory calls itself "DRAM with fast page mode", it does not say 
> "EDO".  But judging from the timing diagrams (which show that data out turns 
> off after the later of RAS and CAS deassertion) it sounds like "fast page 
> mode" is a confusing way to say "EDO".

ISSI selection information refers to the IS41C16100C as EDO, and the
IS41C16105C as FPM.  I suspect that they were careless in preparing
the timing diagram on page 11 of the IS41C16106C (FPM) datasheet,
including footnote 1.

Another consideration in replacing legacy DRAM is that the x1 parts
have separate DIN and DOUT pins, while the wider parts have them in
common. Many but not all systems that use legacy DRAM tied DIN and
DOUT together. Using wider DRAMs in the systems that did not may
require additional buffers and control logic.

Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Paul Koning]

> On Sep 2, 2016, at 3:05 PM, Ethan Dicks  wrote:
> 
> On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
>> Incidentally, the Pro technical manual says that the daughterboard can be up 
>> to 2 MB (but DEC only offers 512 kB).  It doesn't say how that is done.  It 
>> looks like the answer is that there are four RAS signals, so you can have 
>> four banks, 256k by 16 each.
> 
> Hmm... 2 Daughterboards at 2MB each?  A full 22-bit boat of RAM?
> Sweet!  

I was talking about the Pro 380, which has only one daughterboard.  Still, 2.5 
MB is not shabby.  See page 6-25 in the technical manual.

Then again: see also page 6-52 and 6-53, the memory config register.  And the 
description on page 26 of the Pro 380 schematics.  It says pretty clearly that 
you could use 256k DRAM on the motherboard, which (if you install all four 
banks) would mean 2 MB on the motherboard.   Both motherboard and daughterboard 
have two wires to indicate bank count (1..4) and a "256 kB memory chips" signal 
as well, so both are in principle capable of being up to 2 MB each.  What 
happens if you install 4 MB is not entirely clear, since the I/O page still has 
to go to I/O of course.

A four bank "256k" daughtercard would be straightforward; I figure you could do 
it with a few gates plus a 1Mx16 memory chip -- give or take the EDO issue 
discussed earlier.  Installing 256k memories in the motherboard of course is 
more of a job because you have to take the existing baord apart.

The Pro 350 only has one RAS signal.  Then again, the connector pinout (page 
5-129) shows a "Bank" signal; I wonder what that means.  Does anyone have Pro 
350 schematics?

paul

Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Ethan Dicks]

On Fri, Sep 2, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> Incidentally, the Pro technical manual says that the daughterboard can be up 
> to 2 MB (but DEC only offers 512 kB).  It doesn't say how that is done.  It 
> looks like the answer is that there are four RAS signals, so you can have 
> four banks, 256k by 16 each.

Hmm... 2 Daughterboards at 2MB each?  A full 22-bit boat of RAM?
Sweet!  I have more than one Pro - I started upgrading one with
256kbit DRAMs.  I also had a PSU smoke on my Pro380 and got a
replacement but haven't installed it yet.  I'm already in "repair all
the PDP-11s" mode, so I'll add it to the stack.  Someday, I'll get
2BSD up on at least one of them (for now, I have RT-11 and Venix)

-ethan

Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Paul Koning]

> On Sep 1, 2016, at 12:56 AM, Eric Smith  wrote:
> 
> On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 6:42 AM, Paul Koning  wrote:
>> Yes, the one I saw when I made that comment is an MSM51V18165F by Lapis, a 
>> 1M by 16 "fast page mode" EDO DRAM.
> 
> If it's EDO, it may not be compatible with systems that weren't
> designed for EDO, and since none of the 16-pin parts were EDO, I'd
> avoid it.
> 
> "Normal" and FPM memory stops driving the data output when CAS is
> deasserted, regardless of the state of RAS.  EDO continues driving the
> data output even with CAS deasserted, unless RAS is also deasserted.

The ISSI memory calls itself "DRAM with fast page mode", it does not say "EDO". 
 But judging from the timing diagrams (which show that data out turns off after 
the later of RAS and CAS deassertion) it sounds like "fast page mode" is a 
confusing way to say "EDO".

Now the question becomes what the Pro actually does.  I don't see it in the 
documentation or schematics, unfortunately.

Incidentally, the Pro technical manual says that the daughterboard can be up to 
2 MB (but DEC only offers 512 kB).  It doesn't say how that is done.  It looks 
like the answer is that there are four RAS signals, so you can have four banks, 
256k by 16 each.

paul

Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Eric Smith]

On Wed, Aug 31, 2016 at 6:42 AM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> Yes, the one I saw when I made that comment is an MSM51V18165F by Lapis, a 1M 
> by 16 "fast page mode" EDO DRAM.

If it's EDO, it may not be compatible with systems that weren't
designed for EDO, and since none of the 16-pin parts were EDO, I'd
avoid it.

"Normal" and FPM memory stops driving the data output when CAS is
deasserted, regardless of the state of RAS.  EDO continues driving the
data output even with CAS deasserted, unless RAS is also deasserted.

Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 30, 2016, at 8:15 PM, Eric Smith  wrote:
> 
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:28 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
>> Another possibility would be a current (not surplus) DRAM device such as a 
>> 1M x 16 chip, plus a couple of level shifters to go between the 3.3 V it 
>> likes and the 5V logic of the Pro.
> 
> WARNING: Most recent 1Mx16 DRAM devices are synchronous DRAM (and
> usually DDR of some description), which are NOT EVEN CLOSE to being
> electrically compatible with legacy 16-pin DRAMs, nor even the 1 Mbit
> and 4 Mbit legacy DRAMs.
> 
> Most of the ones that aren't synchronous are 3.3V parts, and won't
> work reliably if at all in a 5V system without the level shifters Paul
> mentioned.  I commonly use 74LVC245 buffers between 5V and 3.3V logic,
> when the 5V logic doesn't require a full 5V swing (e.g., Voh min of
> 2.0V for TTL-compatible parts).

Yes, the one I saw when I made that comment is an MSM51V18165F by Lapis, a 1M 
by 16 "fast page mode" EDO DRAM.  

> It does appear that ISSI still makes some 5V 1Mx16 non-synchronous
> DRAMs in either EDO or Fast Page Mode. There's a reasonable chance
> that the 5V Fast Page Mode devices would work for replacing legacy
> DRAM, and wouldn't require any level shifting. 

That would be interesting to try.

paul

Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Eric Smith]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:28 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> Another possibility would be a current (not surplus) DRAM device such as a 1M 
> x 16 chip, plus a couple of level shifters to go between the 3.3 V it likes 
> and the 5V logic of the Pro.

WARNING: Most recent 1Mx16 DRAM devices are synchronous DRAM (and
usually DDR of some description), which are NOT EVEN CLOSE to being
electrically compatible with legacy 16-pin DRAMs, nor even the 1 Mbit
and 4 Mbit legacy DRAMs.

Most of the ones that aren't synchronous are 3.3V parts, and won't
work reliably if at all in a 5V system without the level shifters Paul
mentioned.  I commonly use 74LVC245 buffers between 5V and 3.3V logic,
when the 5V logic doesn't require a full 5V swing (e.g., Voh min of
2.0V for TTL-compatible parts).

It does appear that ISSI still makes some 5V 1Mx16 non-synchronous
DRAMs in either EDO or Fast Page Mode. There's a reasonable chance
that the 5V Fast Page Mode devices would work for replacing legacy
DRAM, and wouldn't require any level shifting. Mouser has some in
stock, e.g., the IS41C16105-50KLI in SOJ-42 package at $7.20 each
(quantity one) or the IS41C16105-50TLI in TSOP-44 package at $7.02
each (quantity one).

Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 30, 2016, at 2:58 PM, Mattis Lind  wrote:
> 
>> ...
> 
> There are 256 k chips (Intel & TI)  available from a Swedish surplus
> seller. Similar type of chips show up on Ebay as well, for example this
> listing http://www.ebay.com/itm/111748975992

Another possibility would be a current (not surplus) DRAM device such as a 1M x 
16 chip, plus a couple of level shifters to go between the 3.3 V it likes and 
the 5V logic of the Pro.

paul

Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Mattis Lind]

>
> >> I misremembered the 350 (I don't have one): it can have memory in the
> I/O
> >> card cage, but it also has memory daughter cards, two of them, with 40
> pin
> >> connectors.
> >>
> > Many years ago I upgraded those daughter cards and changed them from
> using
> > 64kbit chips to 256 kbit chips. I don't remember the exact type which I
> > used. It was very successful. The system went from 512kbyte total to 1280
> > kbyte total. There were no stability issues what I remember so the
> refresh
> > seemed to have worked fine.
>
> You're talking about the Pro-380 daughtercard, right?  It has a jumper on
> the card to indicate to the software whether the card has 64k or 256k
> chips.  I don't see anything like that in the Pro-350 description.
>
>
>
No. Actually the 350. I still have the machine, though it hasn't been ran
for ages. I did this "upgrade" more than 25 years ago so the (my...) memory
is a bit fuzzy. But I think I remember that it was just a simple change of
chips. No extra wiring needed to handle the extra address bit, it was all
there.

I just looked up the tech manual page 5-46: "The system can address up to
512kbytes per daughter board slot" so my memory wasn't that bad after all.

Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 30, 2016, at 3:07 AM, Mattis Lind  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I misremembered the 350 (I don't have one): it can have memory in the I/O
>> card cage, but it also has memory daughter cards, two of them, with 40 pin
>> connectors.
>> 
> Many years ago I upgraded those daughter cards and changed them from using
> 64kbit chips to 256 kbit chips. I don't remember the exact type which I
> used. It was very successful. The system went from 512kbyte total to 1280
> kbyte total. There were no stability issues what I remember so the refresh
> seemed to have worked fine.

You're talking about the Pro-380 daughtercard, right?  It has a jumper on the 
card to indicate to the software whether the card has 64k or 256k chips.  I 
don't see anything like that in the Pro-350 description.

The Pro 380 schematics have a tantalizing hint that the motherboard memory 
could be populated with 256k memory chips.  At least that's what the "memory 
jumper configuration" note on sheet 4 of the PC380 system module schematics 
suggests.  Nothing else explains further, though.

The notes on the drawings also mention several different manufacturers, and the 
memory is described as "MOS memory ... 150 ns".

It turns out the schematics I have are the "PC380 system module" portion of 
what's already on Bitsavers in MP01922_PC380_EngrDrws_Jun84.pdf -- same 
revision.  The one extra bit of information is a hand-written note on the first 
sheet saying "these schematics match Rev E1 etch  03-MAY-84"

paul

Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Mattis Lind]

>
> I misremembered the 350 (I don't have one): it can have memory in the I/O
> card cage, but it also has memory daughter cards, two of them, with 40 pin
> connectors.
>
>
>
Many years ago I upgraded those daughter cards and changed them from using
64kbit chips to 256 kbit chips. I don't remember the exact type which I
used. It was very successful. The system went from 512kbyte total to 1280
kbyte total. There were no stability issues what I remember so the refresh
seemed to have worked fine.

Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 29, 2016, at 6:27 PM, Rob Jarratt  wrote:
> 
> ...
> Thanks, I see that now. Definitely no compatibility :-(. Just need that
> logic analyser really to work out what is the matter with them both. When
> the 380 doesn't have the daughter board installed it leaves all the LEDs on
> to indicate a system board error. The 350 has the same symptoms with or
> without the memory boards. Strange though that the manual mentions a
> standard option with memory on the backplane, I don't think my 350 had that
> installed. I also notice that the printer port can give access to ODT, I
> will see if I can get anything out of that later.

The printer port is either a 4800 baud port intented to drive the printer, or a 
9600 baud at the standard console UART address.  Which it is depends on the 
connected cable; BCC05 is for printer, BCC08 is for console.  Or you can wire 
your own.  The difference is that one (the BCC08, I think) has a jumper which 
tells the hardware to be a console.

paul

RE: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Rob Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net]
> Sent: 29 August 2016 18:10
> To: r...@jarratt.me.uk
> Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?
> 
> 
> > On Aug 29, 2016, at 12:33 PM, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net]
> >> Sent: 29 August 2016 15:08
> >> To: r...@jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic
> >> Posts <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> >> Subject: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?
> >>
> >>
> >>> On Aug 28, 2016, at 5:11 PM, Rob Jarratt
> >>> <robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com>
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I have a 350 and 380. Neither work. The 380 is reporting a possible
> >>> memory error on the LEDs. Will the 350's memory work in a 380 (or
> >>> vice
> >> versa)?
> >>
> >> The 380 has memory on the motherboard, and a model-specific
> >> daughtercard for expansion memory.
> >>
> >> It seems reasonable that the Pro bus (I/O card) expansion memory
> >> should work in both models, but I don't have any to try that.
> >>
> >> If you have a 380 complaining about memory and it has a Pro bus
> >> memory card installed, I'd suggest removing that card to see if it's
> >> happy with
> > just the
> >> stock motherboard memory.
> >>
> >>paul
> >
> > Just reading your reply again. Are you saying it has enough memory on
> > the board, without using a daughter board? I did see lots of memory on
> > the main board, but assumed it was video memory. I did try removing
> > the daughter board altogether at one point, but it still didn't work.
> > :-(
> >
> > I wish I had a logic analyser.
> 
> You should get the Pro 300 technical manual (two volumes) from Bitsavers.
It
> contains a great deal of relevant detail.
> 
> From Volume 1, page 4-4 summarizes the system memory for both models.
> Page 5-129 describes the memory daughter cards of the Pro-350.  Page 6-125
> describes the memory daughter cards for the Pro-380.
> 
> I misremembered the 350 (I don't have one): it can have memory in the I/O
> card cage, but it also has memory daughter cards, two of them, with 40 pin
> connectors.
> 
> The Pro-380 has main memory on the motherboard.  It also supports an
> optional expansion card, just one, with a 48 pin connector.  The pinouts
> shown for the two types of daughtercards make it very clear that they are
> entirely incompatible.
> 
> The Pro-380 also has graphics on the motherboard (though EBO is an option,
> via a daughtercard).  So a Pro-380 with nothing in the I/O card cage
should
> power up and give you a display on the screen (presumably one complaining
> about not having a bootable device controller...).
> 
> On the other hand, the Pro 350 uses a graphics card in the I/O cage, and
EBO
> is a second I/O card connected to the main one via a jumper cable.
Neither
> of these is compatible with the Pro-380.
> 


Thanks, I see that now. Definitely no compatibility :-(. Just need that
logic analyser really to work out what is the matter with them both. When
the 380 doesn't have the daughter board installed it leaves all the LEDs on
to indicate a system board error. The 350 has the same symptoms with or
without the memory boards. Strange though that the manual mentions a
standard option with memory on the backplane, I don't think my 350 had that
installed. I also notice that the printer port can give access to ODT, I
will see if I can get anything out of that later.


> I have somewhere a printout (on 11x17 size paper, roughly A3) of the Pro
380
> motherboard schematics.  I haven't seen those elsewhere.  I haven't tried
to
> scan them but try if there's interest.
> 
>   paul

Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[shadoooo]

Hello Rob,

I think I found a link:

http://vaxhaven.com/images/a/a7/EK-PC380-PS-003.pdf

Andrea

RE: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Paul Birkel]

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Paul Koning
Sent: Monday, August 29, 2016 1:10 PM
To: r...@jarratt.me.uk
Cc: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
Subject: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

I have somewhere a printout (on 11x17 size paper, roughly A3) of the Pro 380
motherboard schematics.  I haven't seen those elsewhere.  I haven't tried to
scan them but try if there's interest.

paul

-

http://bitsavers.trailing-edge.com/pdf/dec/pdp11/pro3xx/MP01922_PC380_EngrDr
ws_Jun84.pdf

-

Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 29, 2016, at 12:33 PM, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net]
>> Sent: 29 August 2016 15:08
>> To: r...@jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
>> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
>> Subject: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?
>> 
>> 
>>> On Aug 28, 2016, at 5:11 PM, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com>
>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have a 350 and 380. Neither work. The 380 is reporting a possible
>>> memory error on the LEDs. Will the 350's memory work in a 380 (or vice
>> versa)?
>> 
>> The 380 has memory on the motherboard, and a model-specific
>> daughtercard for expansion memory.
>> 
>> It seems reasonable that the Pro bus (I/O card) expansion memory should
>> work in both models, but I don't have any to try that.
>> 
>> If you have a 380 complaining about memory and it has a Pro bus memory
>> card installed, I'd suggest removing that card to see if it's happy with
> just the
>> stock motherboard memory.
>> 
>>  paul
> 
> Just reading your reply again. Are you saying it has enough memory on the
> board, without using a daughter board? I did see lots of memory on the main
> board, but assumed it was video memory. I did try removing the daughter
> board altogether at one point, but it still didn't work. :-(
> 
> I wish I had a logic analyser.

You should get the Pro 300 technical manual (two volumes) from Bitsavers.  It 
contains a great deal of relevant detail.

From Volume 1, page 4-4 summarizes the system memory for both models. Page 
5-129 describes the memory daughter cards of the Pro-350.  Page 6-125 describes 
the memory daughter cards for the Pro-380.

I misremembered the 350 (I don't have one): it can have memory in the I/O card 
cage, but it also has memory daughter cards, two of them, with 40 pin 
connectors.

The Pro-380 has main memory on the motherboard.  It also supports an optional 
expansion card, just one, with a 48 pin connector.  The pinouts shown for the 
two types of daughtercards make it very clear that they are entirely 
incompatible. 

The Pro-380 also has graphics on the motherboard (though EBO is an option, via 
a daughtercard).  So a Pro-380 with nothing in the I/O card cage should power 
up and give you a display on the screen (presumably one complaining about not 
having a bootable device controller...).

On the other hand, the Pro 350 uses a graphics card in the I/O cage, and EBO is 
a second I/O card connected to the main one via a jumper cable.  Neither of 
these is compatible with the Pro-380.

I have somewhere a printout (on 11x17 size paper, roughly A3) of the Pro 380 
motherboard schematics.  I haven't seen those elsewhere.  I haven't tried to 
scan them but try if there's interest.

paul

RE: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Rob Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net]
> Sent: 29 August 2016 15:08
> To: r...@jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?
> 
> 
> > On Aug 28, 2016, at 5:11 PM, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have a 350 and 380. Neither work. The 380 is reporting a possible
> > memory error on the LEDs. Will the 350's memory work in a 380 (or vice
> versa)?
> 
> The 380 has memory on the motherboard, and a model-specific
> daughtercard for expansion memory.
> 
> It seems reasonable that the Pro bus (I/O card) expansion memory should
> work in both models, but I don't have any to try that.
> 
> If you have a 380 complaining about memory and it has a Pro bus memory
> card installed, I'd suggest removing that card to see if it's happy with
just the
> stock motherboard memory.
> 
>   paul

Manx has a pocket service guide that is specific to the 380, which might
give me more info, but Manx seems to be in the process of being relocated,
so I can't access the document. Does anyone have it?

Regards

Rob

RE: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Rob Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net]
> Sent: 29 August 2016 15:08
> To: r...@jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?
> 
> 
> > On Aug 28, 2016, at 5:11 PM, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have a 350 and 380. Neither work. The 380 is reporting a possible
> > memory error on the LEDs. Will the 350's memory work in a 380 (or vice
> versa)?
> 
> The 380 has memory on the motherboard, and a model-specific
> daughtercard for expansion memory.
> 
> It seems reasonable that the Pro bus (I/O card) expansion memory should
> work in both models, but I don't have any to try that.
> 
> If you have a 380 complaining about memory and it has a Pro bus memory
> card installed, I'd suggest removing that card to see if it's happy with
just the
> stock motherboard memory.
> 
>   paul

Just reading your reply again. Are you saying it has enough memory on the
board, without using a daughter board? I did see lots of memory on the main
board, but assumed it was video memory. I did try removing the daughter
board altogether at one point, but it still didn't work. :-(

I wish I had a logic analyser.

Regards

Rob

RE: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Rob Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net]
> Sent: 29 August 2016 15:08
> To: r...@jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?
> 
> 
> > On Aug 28, 2016, at 5:11 PM, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > I have a 350 and 380. Neither work. The 380 is reporting a possible
> > memory error on the LEDs. Will the 350's memory work in a 380 (or vice
> versa)?
> 
> The 380 has memory on the motherboard, and a model-specific
> daughtercard for expansion memory.
> 
> It seems reasonable that the Pro bus (I/O card) expansion memory should
> work in both models, but I don't have any to try that.
> 
> If you have a 380 complaining about memory and it has a Pro bus memory
> card installed, I'd suggest removing that card to see if it's happy with
just the
> stock motherboard memory.
> 
>   paul

Unfortunately not. I removed all the expansion cards, but it still complains
about memory. It has a daughter card mounted on the main board (not in the
expansion slots). The 350 has two cards that appear to be physically the
same (connector wise), but different part numbers and different chips (I
have not looked up their datasheets). It would be nice to try the 350
daughter cards in the 380, or vice versa, as neither machine works, but at
the moment I don't really know why.

Regards

Rob

Re: DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 28, 2016, at 5:11 PM, Rob Jarratt  wrote:
> 
> I have a 350 and 380. Neither work. The 380 is reporting a possible memory
> error on the LEDs. Will the 350's memory work in a 380 (or vice versa)?

The 380 has memory on the motherboard, and a model-specific daughtercard for 
expansion memory.  

It seems reasonable that the Pro bus (I/O card) expansion memory should work in 
both models, but I don't have any to try that.

If you have a 380 complaining about memory and it has a Pro bus memory card 
installed, I'd suggest removing that card to see if it's happy with just the 
stock motherboard memory.

paul

DEC Pro 350/380 Memory Cards - Interchangeability?

[Rob Jarratt]

I have a 350 and 380. Neither work. The 380 is reporting a possible memory
error on the LEDs. Will the 350's memory work in a 380 (or vice versa)?

 

Regards

 

Rob