Re: DIBOL manual
On 10/13/2019 12:35 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I recently picked up a copy of "CTS-300 - DIBOL Language Reference Manual" > (because when I went to do a CHWiki page for the language: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/DIBOL > > I could find almost nothing about it online); does anyone have enough of a use > for this that I should put it in the high-priority scan list? > > Noel > > A friend of mine back in the day worked for a local company using Timeshared DIBOL. He found so many bugs that DEC eventually hired him. JRJ
Re: DIBOL manual
On 10/15/19 8:07 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I seem to recall that COBOL was the first language with support for > structures? If DIBOL has support for them too, which would be > another similarity between the two. Both FLOW-MATIC (1953) and COMTRAN (1957) had support for data structures, though the data structure notation was not part of the program procedure. FLOW-MATIC placed the structure and naming information on data tapes (pretty novel for the period) and COMTRAN put the specification of data structure on separate fixed-field section the program input. The general idea (as explained in Grace Hopper's FLOW-MATIC description) was to make the data record structuring an independent task. She mentions being able to work out the procedure section before designing the data layout. I suspect that her record layout is one of the earliest DDLs. COBOL built on this. Looking at the procedure section of COMTRAN or FLOW-MATIC programs, there's no mistaking them as COBOL predecessors. DIBOL, not so much. COBOL, by the late 60s was a very complex language, so much so that the initial S/360 DOS releases were incomplete; they lacked support for ISAM files. Somewhere, I have an IBM document that describes the machine-language subroutines that were provided to fill the gap temporarily via the "ENTER LINKAGE" statement. I'm not at all certain that FLOW-MATIC had the first structured data description language, but it was pretty close. --Chuck
Re: DIBOL manual
> From: Chuck Guzis > One could argue that it's just as similar to FORTRAN (cf. computed GOTO > and logical IF statements). It probably worth pointing out that I never used COBOL, and have little knowledge of it. So when one reads "it is vaguely reminiscent of COBOL, as it has a 'Data Division' and a 'Procedure Division'", I must have copied that all from some source I found, because I don't know what the 'Data Division' and a 'Procedure Division' are (although I can guess from the names). > Where it differs mainly from FORTRAN of the times is a facility for > record layout I seem to recall that COBOL was the first language with support for structures? If DIBOL has support for them too, which would be another similarity between the two. Noel
Re: DIBOL manual
On 10/13/19 5:35 PM, Wayne S via cctalk wrote: > In 1981-1987 i worked for a company that used the MCBA system subroutines to > develop a system to do trust plan administration for labor unions. Mostly it > was remote data entry by the unions themselves over leased lines using black > box modems. The MCBA routines were pretty clever and solid. The screen > routines used vt100 escape sequences to make "fill in" fields which then > could be made to resemble a form. > It ran on pdp 11/70. In 1982 we converted it to run on a VAX 780. Hardest > part was converting from (i think) DMS 11 ( i think that was what the file > system was called) to RMS. > DMS-11 was Univac's CODASYL Database system running on the 1100. I believe it still exists today running on the 2200 from Unisys. bill
Re: DIBOL manual
In 1981-1987 i worked for a company that used the MCBA system subroutines to develop a system to do trust plan administration for labor unions. Mostly it was remote data entry by the unions themselves over leased lines using black box modems. The MCBA routines were pretty clever and solid. The screen routines used vt100 escape sequences to make "fill in" fields which then could be made to resemble a form. It ran on pdp 11/70. In 1982 we converted it to run on a VAX 780. Hardest part was converting from (i think) DMS 11 ( i think that was what the file system was called) to RMS. Sent from my iPhone > On Oct 13, 2019, at 13:30, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > > On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 1:47 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> There's a DIBOL self-instruction book on bitsavers: >> >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/dibol/DEC-08-WDRA-D_DIBOL_Programming_A_Self-Instruction_Manual_Sep1970.pdf > > A few years ago I scanned a bunch of application manuals from a > company called MCBA. Most of the apps are written in (or for) DEC > DIBOL: > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FMCBA > > Somewhere I've got piles of 9-tracks tapes that most likely contain > the software. Maybe they'll be recovered some time before my > infirmity. > > j
Re: DIBOL manual
On 10/13/19 2:46 PM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > > From: Chuck Guzis > > > Calling DIBOL "COBOL-like" is stretching things quite a bit. > > OK, so I'll change it to "vaguely COBOL-like"... :-) > > Seriously, though, there some high-level similarities, and not just > the purpose... One could argue that it's just as similar to FORTRAN (cf. computed GOTO and logical IF statements). Where it differs mainly from FORTRAN of the times is a facility for record layout, which didn't come along in FORTRAN for a couple of decades. (I'm trying to recall if it was part of F90). --Chuck
Re: DIBOL manual
On 10/13/19 1:29 PM, Jason T via cctalk wrote: > On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 1:47 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk > wrote: >> There's a DIBOL self-instruction book on bitsavers: >> >> http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/dibol/DEC-08-WDRA-D_DIBOL_Programming_A_Self-Instruction_Manual_Sep1970.pdf > > A few years ago I scanned a bunch of application manuals from a > company called MCBA. Most of the apps are written in (or for) DEC > DIBOL: > > http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FMCBA > > Somewhere I've got piles of 9-tracks tapes that most likely contain > the software. Maybe they'll be recovered some time before my > infirmity. Yup, I remember those. At one time, Diablo Systems was going to use those on its "Merchant" project and had even worked out a DIBOL for the Intel 8080. Later MCBA re-wrote the applications in DG Nova BASIC (IIRC). At Durango, we picked those up, wrote our own multi-user BASIC for the 8085 and 'ported the MCBA apps (AP, AL, GL, Payroll and Inventory) to our own system. Later, we ported our BASIC to Xenix and ran the same application on an 80286/80186 multi-terminal box. I still have the source code for those. --Chuck Sent from my digital computer
Re: DIBOL manual
> On 13 Oct 2019, at 21:36, Nigel Johnson via cctalk > wrote: > > If anybody still has a COS-3xx DIBOL system, I have two keys for the back > doors :-) DF8 and DF32 > > cheers, > > Nigel Johnson I have 2, assuming they both still work. I spent over 10 years as a DIBOL programmer before the unreasonable demands of people who didn’t understand coding and software development took their toll and I moved into Failed Circus. I’m hoping my MicroPDP 11/73 is complete because it’s a microcosm of my dev environment from the 80s into the early 90s. -- Adrian Graham Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest private home computer collection? t: @binarydinosaursf: facebook.com/binarydinosaurs w: www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk
Re: DIBOL manual
> From: Chuck Guzis > Calling DIBOL "COBOL-like" is stretching things quite a bit. OK, so I'll change it to "vaguely COBOL-like"... :-) Seriously, though, there some high-level similarities, and not just the purpose... Noel
Re: DIBOL manual
If anybody still has a COS-3xx DIBOL system, I have two keys for the back doors :-) DF8 and DF32 cheers, Nigel Johnson On 13/10/2019 16:29, Jason T via cctalk wrote: On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 1:47 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: There's a DIBOL self-instruction book on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/dibol/DEC-08-WDRA-D_DIBOL_Programming_A_Self-Instruction_Manual_Sep1970.pdf A few years ago I scanned a bunch of application manuals from a company called MCBA. Most of the apps are written in (or for) DEC DIBOL: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FMCBA Somewhere I've got piles of 9-tracks tapes that most likely contain the software. Maybe they'll be recovered some time before my infirmity. j -- Nigel Johnson MSc., MIEEE VE3ID/G4AJQ/VA3MCU Amateur Radio, the origin of the open-source concept! You can reach me by voice on Skype: TILBURY2591 If time travel ever will be possible, it already is. Ask me again yesterday This e-mail is not and cannot, by its nature, be confidential. En route from me to you, it will pass across the public Internet, easily readable by any number of system administrators along the way. Nigel Johnson Please consider the environment when deciding if you really need to print this message
Re: DIBOL manual
On Sun, Oct 13, 2019 at 1:47 PM Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: > There's a DIBOL self-instruction book on bitsavers: > > http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/dibol/DEC-08-WDRA-D_DIBOL_Programming_A_Self-Instruction_Manual_Sep1970.pdf A few years ago I scanned a bunch of application manuals from a company called MCBA. Most of the apps are written in (or for) DEC DIBOL: http://chiclassiccomp.org/docs/index.php?dir=%2Fcomputing%2FMCBA Somewhere I've got piles of 9-tracks tapes that most likely contain the software. Maybe they'll be recovered some time before my infirmity. j
Re: DIBOL manual
On 10/13/19 10:35 AM, Noel Chiappa via cctalk wrote: > I recently picked up a copy of "CTS-300 - DIBOL Language Reference Manual" > (because when I went to do a CHWiki page for the language: > > http://gunkies.org/wiki/DIBOL > > I could find almost nothing about it online); does anyone have enough of a use > for this that I should put it in the high-priority scan list? There's a DIBOL self-instruction book on bitsavers: http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp8/dibol/DEC-08-WDRA-D_DIBOL_Programming_A_Self-Instruction_Manual_Sep1970.pdf Calling DIBOL "COBOL-like" is stretching things quite a bit. I suppose that the original idea was to get some sort of business HLL going on a PDP-8, but no COBOL programmer would recognize the language. --Chuck
DIBOL manual
I recently picked up a copy of "CTS-300 - DIBOL Language Reference Manual" (because when I went to do a CHWiki page for the language: http://gunkies.org/wiki/DIBOL I could find almost nothing about it online); does anyone have enough of a use for this that I should put it in the high-priority scan list? Noel
