Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Paul Koning]

> On Nov 17, 2016, at 4:15 PM, Kyle Owen  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> This is the piece I mentioned, I believe.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?
>> v=60oxsizDxaQ
> 
> That's quite eerie sounding!

I believe I found the book in which that recording appears.

https://www.discogs.com/Various-Music-By-Computers/release/2426436

I also remember another piece listed in that description, "British Grenadiers". 
 It's a smooth transition from that tune to "Johnny comes marching home".  
Which is interesting because they are in different keys, one minor, one major.

The technical details listing at the end mentions ILLIAC II several times.

paul

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Pontus Pihlgren]

I've only skimmed this thread so I'll appologize in advance if I'm off 
topic or repeating things.

But here are a few other early computer music projects:

EMS in London (PDP-8/s):
http://120years.net/musys-and-mouse-audio-synthesis-language-peter-grogono-untied-kingdom-1965/

EMS in Stockholm (PDP-15):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCdlTilrp5k

In Memoriam LP (Datasaab D2, D21 and D22):
http://www.ctrl-c.liu.se/misc/datasaab/musik.html

Cheers,
Pontus.

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 08:54:10AM -0600, Kyle Owen wrote:
> Does anyone have a scanned (or hard) copy of this? I'm trying to locate
> one, without much success. I'm mostly interested in the article entitled
> "Capture and Display of Keyboard Music".
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Kyle

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Arno Kletzander]

Paul Koning  wrote:
> Interesting. From around 1975 or so (...) A few years later (...) 

> Not long after, Lippold Haken created a keyboard that's continuous rather 
> than discrete (think of a keyboard like the fingerboard of a violin); a 
> successor of that is still sold today.

This thing here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuum_Fingerboard ? Seems a 
bit like a digital successor to, or at least inspired by, the analogue 1930s 
"Trautonium" device (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trautonium) developed by 
Trautwein and Sala in Berlin, which used a length of resistance wire suspended 
over a metal rail. Both position (pitch) and pressure (volume)sensitive 
according to the description.

Arno, DO4NAK

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Al Kossow]

and
http://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/102651543

On 11/17/16 2:51 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> http://www.worldcat.org/title/illiac-suite-for-string-quartet-1957/oclc/3866433
> 
> http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AComputer+music.=hot_subject#x0%253Amusic-%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Adigital%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Acd%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Acassette%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Alp%2529format
> 
> is an interesting search
> 
> 
> On 11/17/16 2:45 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
>> On 2016-Nov-17, at 2:26 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>>> On 11/17/16 2:20 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
 Maybe an earlier ILLIAC? 
>>>
>>> correct.
>>>
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiac_Suite
>>
>>
>> From that link, ILLIAC Suite / String Quartet No. 4 is a 1957 composition by 
>> the ILLIAC I, programmed by Lejaren A. Hiller.
>> (According to Ed Thelen's site the ILLIAC I was then retired in 1962.)
>>
>> Josh's 1967 record lists "Machine Music" by Lejaren A. Hiller but (from the 
>> presented info) it's not clear those are the same composition (the names at 
>> least are inconsistent).
>>
> 

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Al Kossow]

http://www.worldcat.org/title/illiac-suite-for-string-quartet-1957/oclc/3866433

http://www.worldcat.org/search?q=su%3AComputer+music.=hot_subject#x0%253Amusic-%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Adigital%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Acd%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Acassette%2529%2C%2528x0%253Amusic%2Bx4%253Alp%2529format

is an interesting search


On 11/17/16 2:45 PM, Brent Hilpert wrote:
> On 2016-Nov-17, at 2:26 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
>> On 11/17/16 2:20 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>> Maybe an earlier ILLIAC? 
>>
>> correct.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiac_Suite
> 
> 
> From that link, ILLIAC Suite / String Quartet No. 4 is a 1957 composition by 
> the ILLIAC I, programmed by Lejaren A. Hiller.
> (According to Ed Thelen's site the ILLIAC I was then retired in 1962.)
> 
> Josh's 1967 record lists "Machine Music" by Lejaren A. Hiller but (from the 
> presented info) it's not clear those are the same composition (the names at 
> least are inconsistent).
> 

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2016-Nov-17, at 2:26 PM, Al Kossow wrote:
> On 11/17/16 2:20 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>> Maybe an earlier ILLIAC? 
> 
> correct.
> 
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiac_Suite


From that link, ILLIAC Suite / String Quartet No. 4 is a 1957 composition by 
the ILLIAC I, programmed by Lejaren A. Hiller.
(According to Ed Thelen's site the ILLIAC I was then retired in 1962.)

Josh's 1967 record lists "Machine Music" by Lejaren A. Hiller but (from the 
presented info) it's not clear those are the same composition (the names at 
least are inconsistent).

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Chuck Guzis]

I remember that CDC used to put on a show for Navy brass back in the 60s
using, tape drives and printers for the rendition of "Anchors Aweigh".
ISTR that it was a 1604 used for this, but may also have been a 3800.
The memory dulls with time.

I believe there was also a similar rendition of "The Stars and Stripes
Forever".  Very impressive to watch and hear.

Do any recordings exist of these?

--Chuck

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Al Kossow]

On 11/17/16 2:20 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

> Maybe an earlier ILLIAC? 

correct.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Illiac_Suite

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Paul Koning]

> On Nov 17, 2016, at 5:04 PM, Brent Hilpert  wrote:
> 
> On 2016-Nov-17, at 1:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:
> 
>> I have an LP, "Electronic Music from the University of Illinois" (1967 or
>> so):
>> https://www.discogs.com/Various-Electronic-Music-From-The-University-Of-Illinois/release/349054.
>> If I recall, they used the U of I's ILLIAC IV in the recording.
> 
> Somethings' amiss there, 1967 is way too early for ILLIAC IV.
> 
> ILLIAC IV wasn't actually located at U of I.
> According to refs it was installed at NASA Ames (Calif) in 1971-2.

Maybe an earlier ILLIAC?  I vaguely remember hearing that ILLIAC I had been 
used to make music.

ILLIAC IV was designed at U of I and was originally intended to be located 
there; they even built a high-security building for it (CAC).  But in the end 
DoD didn't like all those unruly students so they installed at at Ames instead. 
 The building ended up being used for an ARPAnet node instead.

paul

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Brent Hilpert]

On 2016-Nov-17, at 1:08 PM, Josh Dersch wrote:

> I have an LP, "Electronic Music from the University of Illinois" (1967 or
> so):
> https://www.discogs.com/Various-Electronic-Music-From-The-University-Of-Illinois/release/349054.
> If I recall, they used the U of I's ILLIAC IV in the recording.

Somethings' amiss there, 1967 is way too early for ILLIAC IV.

ILLIAC IV wasn't actually located at U of I.
According to refs it was installed at NASA Ames (Calif) in 1971-2.


> It's somewhat interesting but the electronic parts of it are sometimes hard
> to discern :). Looks like someone's digitized it here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ueVm8WvRHI.

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Kyle Owen]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:08 PM, Josh Dersch  wrote:

>
> I have an LP, "Electronic Music from the University of Illinois" (1967 or
> so):
> https://www.discogs.com/Various-Electronic-Music-From-
> The-University-Of-Illinois/release/349054.
> If I recall, they used the U of I's ILLIAC IV in the recording.
>
> It's somewhat interesting but the electronic parts of it are sometimes hard
> to discern :). Looks like someone's digitized it here:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ueVm8WvRHI.
>

Well, uh...that's certainly a little too avant-garde for my tastes, hah!
But that definitely fits the bill otherwise.

>
> I digitized an 45 of music generated by an Orchestra-80 (TRS-80 4-channel
> synth), it's called "Classical Mosquito!" -- you can grab it from here:
> http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mosquito/
>
> As an aside, I've been (slowly) working on emulating Ted Kaehler's organ
> keyboard / FM synth for the Xerox Alto (c. 1974) in ContrAlto.  I have just
> enough technical information and code listings to make it possible, but
> there's just enough information missing to make it difficult...


That'll be very nice to see once you get that going!

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Kyle Owen]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:03 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:

>
> This is the piece I mentioned, I believe.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?
> v=60oxsizDxaQ


That's quite eerie sounding!

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Josh Dersch]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen  wrote:

> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Paul Koning 
> wrote:
>
> >
> > Interesting.  From around 1975 or so, and worth learning about is the
> > music synthesizer developed on the PLATO system at the University of
> > Illinois by Sherwin Gooch.  The hardware is described in great detail
> > (including full schematics) in US Patent 4,206,675.  The software
> includes
> > a music code compiler, using a code somewhat like the one you referenced
> > but different in details.  I don't know if one borred from the other or
> if
> > they are independent inventions.  (Sherwin might remember.)
> >
> > A few years later PLATO added a 16 channel waveform synthesis device,
> > controlled by the microprocessor in the terminals.  It had a similar
> music
> > code, plus support for a piano keyboard (with key velocity sensing) for
> > music input with real time display of the score, as well as score
> > printing.  Not long after, Lippold Haken created a keyboard that's
> > continuous rather than discrete (think of a keyboard like the fingerboard
> > of a violin); a successor of that is still sold today.
> >
>
> I'd be very interested in any sound samples, if anyone has any...I guess
> that's perhaps unlikely. And on that note (heh), are there any other
> computer music albums out there? I know of the First Philadelphia Computer
> Music Festival, the two Unplayed by Human Hands, and it looks like the
> University of Melbourne had an electronic music album too. There's a 45
> entitled Computer Composites that featured several IBM systems,
>
> I'm finding it rather difficult to find LPs that are assuredly produced by
> a digital computer versus by other electronic means, like early
> synthesizers, etc.
>

I have an LP, "Electronic Music from the University of Illinois" (1967 or
so):
https://www.discogs.com/Various-Electronic-Music-From-The-University-Of-Illinois/release/349054.
If I recall, they used the U of I's ILLIAC IV in the recording.

It's somewhat interesting but the electronic parts of it are sometimes hard
to discern :). Looks like someone's digitized it here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ueVm8WvRHI.

I digitized an 45 of music generated by an Orchestra-80 (TRS-80 4-channel
synth), it's called "Classical Mosquito!" -- you can grab it from here:
http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/mosquito/

As an aside, I've been (slowly) working on emulating Ted Kaehler's organ
keyboard / FM synth for the Xerox Alto (c. 1974) in ContrAlto.  I have just
enough technical information and code listings to make it possible, but
there's just enough information missing to make it difficult...

- Josh



>
> Thanks, Al, for the scan upload! I've enjoyed reading that.
>
> Kyle
>

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Cory Heisterkamp]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:

>
>
> On 11/17/16 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
> > are there any other
> > computer music albums out there?
>
> yes, check the Warners budget (Nonesuch) label
>
>
>
Don't forget "Music From Mathematics" to get your IBM 7090 fix. -C

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Paul Koning]

> On Nov 17, 2016, at 4:02 PM, Paul Koning  wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:57 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On 11/17/16 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
>>> are there any other
>>> computer music albums out there?
>> 
>> yes, check the Warners budget (Nonesuch) label
> 
> In college I once played some pieces from a recording in the back of a 
> computer music textbook.  One of them was an "eight tone canon" (in an 8-tone 
> scale, i.e., 2^(1/8) ratio between consecutive notes).
> 
> I don't remember the title, unfortunately.

This is the piece I mentioned, I believe.  
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60oxsizDxaQ

paul

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Kyle Owen]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 3:01 PM, Cory Heisterkamp  wrote:

>
> Don't forget "Music From Mathematics" to get your IBM 7090 fix. -C
>

Good catch! I'll see if I can find a copy.

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Paul Koning]

> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:57 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On 11/17/16 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
>> are there any other
>> computer music albums out there?
> 
> yes, check the Warners budget (Nonesuch) label

In college I once played some pieces from a recording in the back of a computer 
music textbook.  One of them was an "eight tone canon" (in an 8-tone scale, 
i.e., 2^(1/8) ratio between consecutive notes).

I don't remember the title, unfortunately.

paul

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Kyle Owen]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 2:57 PM, Al Kossow  wrote:
>
>
> On 11/17/16 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
> > are there any other
> > computer music albums out there?
>
> yes, check the Warners budget (Nonesuch) label
>

Cool, thanks! I've heard of Nonesuch before, probably from Rifkin's Scott
Joplin album. Can you recommend any particular computer music titles? I'm
trying to find ones specifically composed for computers, not a human
playing a synthesizer.

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Al Kossow]

On 11/17/16 12:44 PM, Kyle Owen wrote:
> are there any other
> computer music albums out there?

yes, check the Warners budget (Nonesuch) label

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Paul Koning]

> On Nov 17, 2016, at 3:44 PM, Kyle Owen  wrote:
> 
> On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Paul Koning 
> wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Interesting.  From around 1975 or so, and worth learning about is the
>> music synthesizer developed on the PLATO system at the University of
>> Illinois by Sherwin Gooch.  The hardware is described in great detail
>> (including full schematics) in US Patent 4,206,675.  The software includes
>> a music code compiler, using a code somewhat like the one you referenced
>> but different in details.  I don't know if one borred from the other or if
>> they are independent inventions.  (Sherwin might remember.)
>> 
>> A few years later PLATO added a 16 channel waveform synthesis device,
>> controlled by the microprocessor in the terminals.  It had a similar music
>> code, plus support for a piano keyboard (with key velocity sensing) for
>> music input with real time display of the score, as well as score
>> printing.  Not long after, Lippold Haken created a keyboard that's
>> continuous rather than discrete (think of a keyboard like the fingerboard
>> of a violin); a successor of that is still sold today.
>> 
> 
> I'd be very interested in any sound samples, if anyone has any...I guess
> that's perhaps unlikely. 

Sound samples of the PLATO devices?  I have somewhere an audio file made from a 
tape recording of the earlier one (the GSW, 4 channel square wave).  And it's 
supported in the PLATO terminal emulator that talks to the Cyber1.org PLATO 
system.  That almost certainly doesn't exactly reproduce the wave form; I 
haven't attempted to simulate the impulse response of the output circuit though 
I could certainly give that a try.

As for the later device, I don't have any recordings but they might exist.  
Sherwin Gooch would be the most likely source, along with Lippold Haken.

paul

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Kyle Owen]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 10:10 AM, Paul Koning 
wrote:

>
> Interesting.  From around 1975 or so, and worth learning about is the
> music synthesizer developed on the PLATO system at the University of
> Illinois by Sherwin Gooch.  The hardware is described in great detail
> (including full schematics) in US Patent 4,206,675.  The software includes
> a music code compiler, using a code somewhat like the one you referenced
> but different in details.  I don't know if one borred from the other or if
> they are independent inventions.  (Sherwin might remember.)
>
> A few years later PLATO added a 16 channel waveform synthesis device,
> controlled by the microprocessor in the terminals.  It had a similar music
> code, plus support for a piano keyboard (with key velocity sensing) for
> music input with real time display of the score, as well as score
> printing.  Not long after, Lippold Haken created a keyboard that's
> continuous rather than discrete (think of a keyboard like the fingerboard
> of a violin); a successor of that is still sold today.
>

I'd be very interested in any sound samples, if anyone has any...I guess
that's perhaps unlikely. And on that note (heh), are there any other
computer music albums out there? I know of the First Philadelphia Computer
Music Festival, the two Unplayed by Human Hands, and it looks like the
University of Melbourne had an electronic music album too. There's a 45
entitled Computer Composites that featured several IBM systems,

I'm finding it rather difficult to find LPs that are assuredly produced by
a digital computer versus by other electronic means, like early
synthesizers, etc.

Thanks, Al, for the scan upload! I've enjoyed reading that.

Kyle

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Paul Koning]

> On Nov 17, 2016, at 10:26 AM, Kyle Owen  wrote:
> 
>> 
>> I wish...but there may be an alternative.  There is a 1970 book called "The
>> Computer and Music" containing 21 articles and documents on the subject.
>> Edited by Harry B. Lincoln.  It is very possible that the Datamation
>> article drew content from this book and you might find the book for sale on
>> online..
> 
> 
> Thanks Bill. Just ordered a copy from Amazon.
> 
> I just picked up "Unplayed by Human Hands" (the first album, from 1975) and
> wanted to learn a little more about how it was done. I do know it was a
> PDP-8 and Model 33 ASR connected to a pipe organ, and there are bits and
> pieces referencing it online.
> 
> For instance, I found this project: https://github.com/jawknee/upbhh
> 
> But, alas...there doesn't seem to be any snippets of actual code from the
> album there.
> 
> The code is described in some detail here too:
> http://charlesames.net/glossary/linear-music-code.html
> 
> Again, no actual code. Bummer.

Interesting.  From around 1975 or so, and worth learning about is the music 
synthesizer developed on the PLATO system at the University of Illinois by 
Sherwin Gooch.  The hardware is described in great detail (including full 
schematics) in US Patent 4,206,675.  The software includes a music code 
compiler, using a code somewhat like the one you referenced but different in 
details.  I don't know if one borred from the other or if they are independent 
inventions.  (Sherwin might remember.)

A few years later PLATO added a 16 channel waveform synthesis device, 
controlled by the microprocessor in the terminals.  It had a similar music 
code, plus support for a piano keyboard (with key velocity sensing) for music 
input with real time display of the score, as well as score printing.  Not long 
after, Lippold Haken created a keyboard that's continuous rather than discrete 
(think of a keyboard like the fingerboard of a violin); a successor of that is 
still sold today.

paul

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[Kyle Owen]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:39 AM, Al Kossow  wrote:

>
> https://archive.org/stream/kilobaudmagazine-1978-02/
>
> I think there is a paper in the DECUS proceedings as well
>
>
> You might be interested in knowing Prentiss is still around and the
> original tapes
> along with several songs that weren't on the album were digitized by a
> friend of
> mine about five years ago.
>
> I have that issue scanned, I'll put it up under pdp8/music later today
>

Thank you, Al! I did not know about the Kilobaud article; that's exactly
along the lines of what I was hoping to find!

Glad to hear the tapes have been saved. I have a 1965 Hammond organ and a
1915 player piano that I'd love to join together via a (completely
reversible) computer interface. Perhaps a project for another decade, but
we'll see.

Re: Datamation, May 1972

[william degnan]

On Thu, Nov 17, 2016 at 9:54 AM, Kyle Owen  wrote:

> Does anyone have a scanned (or hard) copy of this? I'm trying to locate
> one, without much success. I'm mostly interested in the article entitled
> "Capture and Display of Keyboard Music".
>
> Thanks!
>
> Kyle
>

I wish...but there may be an alternative.  There is a 1970 book called "The
Computer and Music" containing 21 articles and documents on the subject.
Edited by Harry B. Lincoln.  It is very possible that the Datamation
article drew content from this book and you might find the book for sale on
online..

Mr Degnan

Datamation, May 1972

[Kyle Owen]

Does anyone have a scanned (or hard) copy of this? I'm trying to locate
one, without much success. I'm mostly interested in the article entitled
"Capture and Display of Keyboard Music".

Thanks!

Kyle