Re: C, STL, primitive languages that live on and on ... Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Chris Hanson via cctalk]

On Apr 17, 2017, at 1:33 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> On 04/17/2017 01:23 PM, Guy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
>> I think timing had a lot to do with C's success.
>> 
>> It's a decent language and at the time powerful and flexible compared
>> to other languages. Universities picked up UNIX and C and taught a
>> lot of students. The went forth taking their skills with them.
> 
> C is pretty much mandatory if you wanted to use Unix.   And Unix was one
> of the very few "portable" operating systems.  So, initially, you saw C
> only in Unix shops.

The original K C is also sufficiently simple and sufficiently sloppy that one 
can hack together a compiler that works well enough in a very short amount of 
time and that can run on or at least target a relatively small system, even an 
early-1980s micro. And if you need to produce better code, you just need to 
change what you wrote, because there’s such a close correspondence between C 
code and generated assembly.

So if you’re bringing up a platform and have some access to Unix or Unix-like 
tools, what do you do, invent your own infrastructure? Or just sit down for a 
week with lex & yacc and knock out a C compiler? (Maybe even piggybacking on 
your installation’s existing cpp…) Heck, some environments never even became 
self-hosting: I hear turning a new build of the Amiga OS still required some 
build steps to be performed on a Sun 3, and others to be performed with 
different compilers, assemblers, etc. No unified toolchain there!

People also still get upset that modern compilers reject things like obvious 
NULL dereferences as undefined behavior. “It should just dereference 0, who 
knows, that might be fine!” The “as-if” rule wasn’t nearly as much of a thing 
in the 1970s and early 1980s as it is in modern compilers.

  -- Chris

Re: C, STL, primitive languages that live on and on ... Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 04/17/2017 01:23 PM, Guy Dawson via cctalk wrote:
> I think timing had a lot to do with C's success.
> 
> It's a decent language and at the time powerful and flexible compared
> to other languages. Universities picked up UNIX and C and taught a
> lot of students. The went forth taking their skills with them.

C is pretty much mandatory if you wanted to use Unix.   And Unix was one
of the very few "portable" operating systems.  So, initially, you saw C
only in Unix shops.

--Chuck

Re: C, STL, primitive languages that live on and on ... Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Guy Dawson via cctalk]

I think timing had a lot to do with C's success.

It's a decent language and at the time powerful and flexible compared to
other languages. Universities picked up UNIX and C and taught a lot of
students. The went forth taking their skills with them.

On 16 April 2017 at 01:56, Charles Dickman via cctalk  wrote:

> There are a lot of smart people here with wide ranging experiences, so
> I like to ask questions from time to time that get more to philosophy.
> So "If C is so evil why is it so successful" was one of those
> questions.
>
> The answer I see is that it is the path of least resistance to the
> most successful outcome in the time horizon of the effort.
>
> Or, it gets the job done.
>
> Personally, I am stuck in the machine control world where things like
> symbolic names and type checking are sometimes non-existant. And I
> wonder why.
>
> SIL-3 and PLe with stone knives and bearskins.
>
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
>  wrote:
> > On 04/11/2017 07:03 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> >> The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting.
>
> > You might find more fertile ground plowing the plctalk.net forum when
> > your questions relate to the STL/SCL/FBD/LAD/CSF area.
>
> I am familiar with STL (and some of the others). My question was not
> for help. I was trying to present a contrast between the nit-picking
> the list was doing about C and that fact that a huge amount of mission
> critical programming is done in languages that are essentially machine
> code.
>
> It was a ham fisted attempt. Don't post after too many high ABV IPA's.
>
> > FWIW, "STL"  in Siemens-talk is an acronym for "Statement List".  Why it
> > isn't "SL" is anyone's guess.
>
> Probably for the same reason that PZD is process data.
>
> > --Chuck
>
> -chuck
>



-- 
4.4 > 5.4

Re: C, STL, primitive languages that live on and on ... Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

COSS4  cant event find it on google

On Sat, Apr 15, 2017 at 7:56 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> There are a lot of smart people here with wide ranging experiences, so
> I like to ask questions from time to time that get more to philosophy.
> So "If C is so evil why is it so successful" was one of those
> questions.
>
> The answer I see is that it is the path of least resistance to the
> most successful outcome in the time horizon of the effort.
>
> Or, it gets the job done.
>
> Personally, I am stuck in the machine control world where things like
> symbolic names and type checking are sometimes non-existant. And I
> wonder why.
>
> SIL-3 and PLe with stone knives and bearskins.
>
> On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
>  wrote:
> > On 04/11/2017 07:03 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> >> The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting.
>
> > You might find more fertile ground plowing the plctalk.net forum when
> > your questions relate to the STL/SCL/FBD/LAD/CSF area.
>
> I am familiar with STL (and some of the others). My question was not
> for help. I was trying to present a contrast between the nit-picking
> the list was doing about C and that fact that a huge amount of mission
> critical programming is done in languages that are essentially machine
> code.
>
> It was a ham fisted attempt. Don't post after too many high ABV IPA's.
>
> > FWIW, "STL"  in Siemens-talk is an acronym for "Statement List".  Why it
> > isn't "SL" is anyone's guess.
>
> Probably for the same reason that PZD is process data.
>
> > --Chuck
>
> -chuck
>

C, STL, primitive languages that live on and on ... Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

There are a lot of smart people here with wide ranging experiences, so
I like to ask questions from time to time that get more to philosophy.
So "If C is so evil why is it so successful" was one of those
questions.

The answer I see is that it is the path of least resistance to the
most successful outcome in the time horizon of the effort.

Or, it gets the job done.

Personally, I am stuck in the machine control world where things like
symbolic names and type checking are sometimes non-existant. And I
wonder why.

SIL-3 and PLe with stone knives and bearskins.

On Wed, Apr 12, 2017 at 1:48 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:
> On 04/11/2017 07:03 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
>> The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting.

> You might find more fertile ground plowing the plctalk.net forum when
> your questions relate to the STL/SCL/FBD/LAD/CSF area.

I am familiar with STL (and some of the others). My question was not
for help. I was trying to present a contrast between the nit-picking
the list was doing about C and that fact that a huge amount of mission
critical programming is done in languages that are essentially machine
code.

It was a ham fisted attempt. Don't post after too many high ABV IPA's.

> FWIW, "STL"  in Siemens-talk is an acronym for "Statement List".  Why it
> isn't "SL" is anyone's guess.

Probably for the same reason that PZD is process data.

> --Chuck

-chuck

Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[geneb via cctalk]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Adrian Stoness wrote:


Modicon, ge faunic, Allen Bradly, Allen Heath, hewert Rand, Siemens, abb,
idec, square d, some I know I'm forgeting

You don't "program" an STL file.  It's a 3D object layout for a 3D printed 
part.  :)


(also, don't top post!)

g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

Modicon, ge faunic, Allen Bradly, Allen Heath, hewert Rand, Siemens, abb,
idec, square d, some I know I'm forgeting

On Apr 12, 2017 12:54 PM, "geneb via cctalk"  wrote:

> On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:
>
> You might find more fertile ground plowing the plctalk.net forum when
>> your questions relate to the STL/SCL/FBD/LAD/CSF area.
>>
>> FWIW, "STL"  in Siemens-talk is an acronym for "Statement List".  Why it
>> isn't "SL" is anyone's guess.
>>
>> I kept trying to figure out how anyone was going to program a Stereo
> Lithography file. :)
>
> g.
>
> --
> Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
> http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
> http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
> Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.
>
> ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
> A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
> http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
>

Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[geneb via cctalk]

On Wed, 12 Apr 2017, Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote:


You might find more fertile ground plowing the plctalk.net forum when
your questions relate to the STL/SCL/FBD/LAD/CSF area.

FWIW, "STL"  in Siemens-talk is an acronym for "Statement List".  Why it
isn't "SL" is anyone's guess.

I kept trying to figure out how anyone was going to program a Stereo 
Lithography file. :)


g.

--
Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007
http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind.
http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home.
Some people collect things for a hobby.  Geeks collect hobbies.

ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment
A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes.
http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!

Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 04/11/2017 07:03 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting.
> 
> I make a comment about C and get a flurry of responses, but ask a 
> question about a programming language that is also very common for 
> machine control and get no response at all. Not even a recognition
> of its existence.
> 
> Siemens STL ist a programming language for machine controllers. It
> is oriented towards Boolean operations and extended for integer and
> real data types. Symbolic addressing is almost completely absent.

You might find more fertile ground plowing the plctalk.net forum when
your questions relate to the STL/SCL/FBD/LAD/CSF area.

FWIW, "STL"  in Siemens-talk is an acronym for "Statement List".  Why it
isn't "SL" is anyone's guess.

--Chuck

Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Shoppa, Tim via cctalk]

Charles Dickman wrote:
> The puzzling (and frustrating) thing about these industrial control
> languages is how primitive they are. There is lots of talk about IIoT
> and Industry 4.0, but at the bottom much of it is essentially handed
> written machine code.

Well, I still get to program in ladder logic and deal with real relay control 
systems every single day at my day job. Ladder logic, most computer guys 
wouldn't even recognize that as a computer language. Still decades old.

At the other end "modern" is the LUA scripting language of the ESP8266. That's 
almost exactly like the first time I programmed a TRS-80 or Apple II except it 
has built-in WiFi and it's a lot easier to get at the GPIO pins and it only 
costs $5.

Tim N3QE

Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Adrian Stoness via cctalk]

Herd of it

Siemens has destroyed so many good products by buying them out blah

On Apr 11, 2017 9:03 PM, "Charles Dickman via cctalk" 
wrote:

> The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting.
>
> I make a comment about C and get a flurry of responses, but ask a
> question about a programming language that is also very common for
> machine control and get no response at all. Not even a recognition of
> its existence.
>
> Siemens STL ist a programming language for machine controllers. It is
> oriented towards Boolean operations and extended for integer and real
> data types. Symbolic addressing is almost completely absent.
>
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:19 PM, Charles Dickman 
> wrote:
> > Does anyone here even know what Siemens STL is?
> >
> >
> > On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Charles Dickman 
> wrote:
> >>
>

Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 10:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk
 wrote:

> I don't think that you're being quite fair.  There are boatloads of
> specialized application programming languages--I rarely pay attention to
> any of them, figuring that after your first dozen or so, it's easy
> enough to add another one.

True, I went a bit overboard.

The puzzling (and frustrating) thing about these industrial control
languages is how primitive they are. There is lots of talk about IIoT
and Industry 4.0, but at the bottom much of it is essentially handed
written machine code.

Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Brian Marstella via cctalk]

I worked with STL some but am much more familiar with structured text as
used by Rockwell/Allen-Bradley. However, my first exposure to PLCs after
getting out of the Navy back in 1991 was the Mitsubishi A series with a GPP
for a programmer. I found that one interesting because you could program in
ladder mode or switch to the other mode (which I can't remember the name
of) that looked exactly like assembly. The two modes were interchangeable
as far as I could tell.

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 10:32 PM, Chuck Guzis via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 04/11/2017 07:03 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> > The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting.
> >
> > I make a comment about C and get a flurry of responses, but ask a
> > question about a programming language that is also very common for
> > machine control and get no response at all. Not even a recognition
> > of its existence.
>
>
> I don't think that you're being quite fair.  There are boatloads of
> specialized application programming languages--I rarely pay attention to
> any of them, figuring that after your first dozen or so, it's easy
> enough to add another one.
>
> Heck,  I may even have some STL stashed away in my collection of Siemens
> PG-685 floppies.   I never was interested in looking.
>
> --Chuck
>
>

Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Chuck Guzis via cctalk]

On 04/11/2017 07:03 PM, Charles Dickman via cctalk wrote:
> The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting.
> 
> I make a comment about C and get a flurry of responses, but ask a 
> question about a programming language that is also very common for 
> machine control and get no response at all. Not even a recognition
> of its existence.


I don't think that you're being quite fair.  There are boatloads of
specialized application programming languages--I rarely pay attention to
any of them, figuring that after your first dozen or so, it's easy
enough to add another one.

Heck,  I may even have some STL stashed away in my collection of Siemens
PG-685 floppies.   I never was interested in looking.

--Chuck

Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

The Balkanized nature of programming is interesting.

I make a comment about C and get a flurry of responses, but ask a
question about a programming language that is also very common for
machine control and get no response at all. Not even a recognition of
its existence.

Siemens STL ist a programming language for machine controllers. It is
oriented towards Boolean operations and extended for integer and real
data types. Symbolic addressing is almost completely absent.

On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:19 PM, Charles Dickman  wrote:
> Does anyone here even know what Siemens STL is?
>
>
> On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Charles Dickman  wrote:
>>

Re: Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]

Does anyone here even know what Siemens STL is?


On Tue, Apr 11, 2017 at 9:00 PM, Charles Dickman  wrote:
>

Does anyone here know Siemens STL?

[Charles Dickman via cctalk]