Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On Thu, 16 Jun 2016, r.stricklin wrote: Hooleon does/did. For other keyboards as well. "For availability and pricing contact Hooleon Sales" Translation: "We don't stock this stuff so don't bother us." g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
> On Jun 16, 2016, at 10:32 , Earl Baugh wrote: > > I'm puzzled, what do you mean two part? Cap and key? > That's all I've gotten from Unicomp... That's how I got all of the "blank" > caps from... Yes, I think that most of the keys on the Unicomp keyboard I bought a year or so ago were two-part. If I recall correctly, some keys like Caps Lock (which I swapped with Ctrl, naturally) were one-part keys, but all of the 1x1 keys were 2-part. -- Mark J. Blair, NF6X http://www.nf6x.net/
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
Hooleon does/did. For other keyboards as well. ok bear. -- Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 16, 2016, at 11:41, geneb wrote: > > > Does anyone other than Unicomp make different key caps?
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On Thu, 16 Jun 2016, Earl Baugh wrote: From: Swift Griggs On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, geneb wrote: I just wish the Unicomp keys were two-part keys like the Model M uses. I wish ALL keyboards did that... it's a superior design, IMHO. I'm puzzled, what do you mean two part? Cap and key? That's all I've gotten from Unicomp... That's how I got all of the "blank" caps from... I stand corrected! I just pulled a key stem off my PC-102 (has 24 function keys) and it IS a two-part key. I'd looked at the Model M I got from Unicomp years ago and I could've sworn it didn't have the two part key. Maybe I thought that because the cap is much more firmly attached on their keyboard than it is the original IBM Model M. Does anyone other than Unicomp make different key caps? g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
From: Swift Griggs On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, geneb wrote: > I just wish the Unicomp keys were two-part keys like the Model M uses. I wish ALL keyboards did that... it's a superior design, IMHO. I'm puzzled, what do you mean two part? Cap and key? That's all I've gotten from Unicomp... That's how I got all of the "blank" caps from... EarltheSquirrel
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On 16 June 2016 at 13:25, Peter Corlett wrote: > My teetering pile of junk^W Fine Legacy Equipment that requires some TLC > includes a dead Unicomp Model M where some of the legends have clearly worn > away. The user admits to putting it through the dishwasher at least twice, > having apparently decided it was dishwashable because the first time worked. That'd be Mr Techpractical, then? :-D -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://lproven.livejournal.com/profile Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/G+/Twitter/Flickr/Facebook: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • Skype/AIM/Yahoo/LinkedIn: liamproven Cell/Mobiles: +44 7939-087884 (UK) • +420 702 829 053 (ČR)
RE: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
A 7/32" or 5.5mm socket or nutdriver will do the job nicely. -Original Message- From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter Corlett Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2016 6:25 AM To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts Subject: Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386) On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 09:17:01AM -0700, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > Unicomp keys are still done using dyesub PBT, same as IBMs. Still > takes a lot of effort to wear it down, I don't recall ever seeing a > board with any wear on the legends. My teetering pile of junk^W Fine Legacy Equipment that requires some TLC includes a dead Unicomp Model M where some of the legends have clearly worn away. The user admits to putting it through the dishwasher at least twice, having apparently decided it was dishwashable because the first time worked. Apart from the obvious reason that I just can't be arsed, the main stumbling block on the repair is the recessed bolts holding it together and me not having a suitable thin-walled driver to turn them. It's probably a simple job once I'm actually in.
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On Wed, Jun 15, 2016 at 09:17:01AM -0700, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > Unicomp keys are still done using dyesub PBT, same as IBMs. Still takes a lot > of effort to wear it down, I don't recall ever seeing a board with any wear > on the legends. My teetering pile of junk^W Fine Legacy Equipment that requires some TLC includes a dead Unicomp Model M where some of the legends have clearly worn away. The user admits to putting it through the dishwasher at least twice, having apparently decided it was dishwashable because the first time worked. Apart from the obvious reason that I just can't be arsed, the main stumbling block on the repair is the recessed bolts holding it together and me not having a suitable thin-walled driver to turn them. It's probably a simple job once I'm actually in.
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, geneb wrote: > I just wish the Unicomp keys were two-part keys like the Model M uses. I wish ALL keyboards did that... it's a superior design, IMHO. -Swift
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On Wed, 15 Jun 2016, Christopher Satterfield wrote: Unicomp keys are still done using dyesub PBT, same as IBMs. Still takes a lot of effort to wear it down, I don't recall ever seeing a board with any wear on the legends. I just wish the Unicomp keys were two-part keys like the Model M uses. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
Unicomp keys are still done using dyesub PBT, same as IBMs. Still takes a lot of effort to wear it down, I don't recall ever seeing a board with any wear on the legends.
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On Mon, 13 Jun 2016, Chuck Guzis wrote: On 06/01/2016 07:12 AM, geneb wrote: It's called a "double-shot" key. There's two injection molds used for each key. I recall contacting the people at Unicomp to ask about their keys, and received the answer that no, they were not double-shot, but laser-engraved and should be very durable. Bad memory on my part. (Funny, it always passes the checksum in the morning! :) ) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On 06/01/2016 07:12 AM, geneb wrote: > It's called a "double-shot" key. There's two injection molds used > for each key. I recall contacting the people at Unicomp to ask about their keys, and received the answer that no, they were not double-shot, but laser-engraved and should be very durable. --Chuck
Re: Model M Key Cap Replacement WAS: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On my 1992 IBM Model M most of the key caps are removable but some are not. Notably, wider keys such as Backspace, Enter and the big + on the numeric pad don't have removable caps. They're like the Unicomp Wide Keys. On 1 June 2016 at 14:52, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 31 May 2016, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > > Unicomp still sells replacement caps ( >> http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe they >> have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so-hated >> keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find someone >> with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free. >> >> AFAIK, the key caps that Unicomp sells are the monolithic cap & plunger > that their keyboards use, not the two-part keys that the real Model M > keyboards use. (For those not aware, the Model M key cap is separate from > the plunger - the key cap is _literally_ just a cap on top of a smaller key > form that's got the plunger molded in.) > > g. > > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > -- 4.4 > 5.4
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On Tue, 31 May 2016, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: On May 31, 2016, at 5:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: I used one enough to have worn a visible depression in the space bar with my right thumb. I still have a few of the keyboards around. Another thing I love about the WASD keyboards. Because the lettering is molded all the way through the keycap, I can't wear the letters off. I've had a couple of other compact format Cherry keyboards over the years that I loved, but I always managed to pound the legend off them within a year or so. It's called a "double-shot" key. There's two injection molds used for each key. I strongly suggest that you guys check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/wiki/index - there's a ton of great info there including key vendors. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
Re: Model M Key Cap Replacement WAS: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On Tue, 31 May 2016, Christopher Satterfield wrote: Unicomp still sells replacement caps ( http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe they have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so-hated keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find someone with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free. AFAIK, the key caps that Unicomp sells are the monolithic cap & plunger that their keyboards use, not the two-part keys that the real Model M keyboards use. (For those not aware, the Model M key cap is separate from the plunger - the key cap is _literally_ just a cap on top of a smaller key form that's got the plunger molded in.) g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
> > I only use Model M keyboards. I have one for my Linux box, one for my > Mac, and one for the office Mac. I have about five more sitting in the > closet of the home office on standby, and I think I have a box of keyboards > in storage. I have a couple of Model M boards, and a Unix layout Unicomp clone (with Ctrl and caps lock in the right positions). My favorite by far though is the 5150 and XT 83-key. Much heavier, and the sound and feel are more to my liking, as well as the left side function keys. I really want to get an XT to PS/2 adapter and one of those boards (model F, if memory serves), but prices are so high that other expenses always seem to take precedence. I was never bothered in the slightest by the small enter key or the need to use num lock regularly. -- *John P. Willis* Coherent Logic Development LLC M: 575.520.9542 O: 575.524.1034 chocolatejolli...@gmail.com http://www.coherent-logic.com/
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
> On May 31, 2016, at 5:38 PM, Pete Turnbull wrote: > > Yet I had a colleague whose keyboard was made with all-blank caps. Very > interesting when he needed help, or got me to demonstrate a problem - which > luckily were very rarely. My other Cherry keyboard I love is some sort of "gaming" model. That means they print the key legends on the *front* of the keys, not the tops. I know not why. The tactile feel of it is even better than the WASD (it very closely mimics the Courier 3270-clone keyboards), but I just can't use the damn thing because my eyes have no point of reference, and I need that even when I touch type. (When I get out of sync, specifically.)
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On 01/06/2016 01:17, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: Another thing I love about the WASD keyboards. Because the lettering is molded all the way through the keycap, I can't wear the letters off. Agreed, it's the only way to make them... I'm not that good of a touch typist that I can work with a blank keyboard :-P Yet I had a colleague whose keyboard was made with all-blank caps. Very interesting when he needed help, or got me to demonstrate a problem - which luckily were very rarely. -- Pete
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
> On May 31, 2016, at 5:10 PM, Chuck Guzis wrote: > > I used one enough to have worn a visible depression in the space bar > with my right thumb. I still have a few of the keyboards around. Another thing I love about the WASD keyboards. Because the lettering is molded all the way through the keycap, I can't wear the letters off. I've had a couple of other compact format Cherry keyboards over the years that I loved, but I always managed to pound the legend off them within a year or so. I'm not that good of a touch typist that I can work with a blank keyboard :-P
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On 05/31/2016 04:31 PM, Lyndon Nerenberg wrote: > The only sane modern keyboards are the WASD 'CODE' series. I have > the 87 key model: > > http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/code-keyboard/code-87-key-mechanical-keyboard-mx-green.html > > As someone who has spent years pounding on Cybernex XL83, Ann Arbor > Ambassador, and Courier 3270-clone keyboards, mine feels right at > home. One keyboard that I didn't mind using for quite some time was one from NCR GmhH, for their 286 PC. Made by Cherry, with F1-F10 down the left side, where they belong and F11-F32 across the top. Nice feel, but lacking "real" F11 and F12 keys--the top row just emits codes for Ctrl-F1-10 and Alt-F1-10. Were it not for that, I'd probably still be using one today. I used one enough to have worn a visible depression in the space bar with my right thumb. I still have a few of the keyboards around. --Chuck
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
>> >> Hehe, I use my Model M mostly with SGI's that have PS/2 ports. So, I'm >> right there with you. The only sane modern keyboards are the WASD 'CODE' series. I have the 87 key model: http://www.wasdkeyboards.com/index.php/products/code-keyboard/code-87-key-mechanical-keyboard-mx-green.html As someone who has spent years pounding on Cybernex XL83, Ann Arbor Ambassador, and Courier 3270-clone keyboards, mine feels right at home. Cherry MX (green) mechanical key switches, LED backlit keycaps, and the best part: flip one dip switch and CapsLock is remapped to Control in hardware. No more fscking around with OS-specific configs to undo *that* brain damage :-) They aren't cheap, and they're worth every penny! --lyndon P.S. I, too, wish I had APL keycaps for mine. You can get custom keycaps made, but they don't have the through-the-keycap backlight.
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
It was thus said that the Great Swift Griggs once stated: > On Tue, 31 May 2016, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > > It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM > > > Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. > > > Windows key? What Windows key? ;) > > > > x86 box? What x86 box? ;) > > Hehe, I use my Model M mostly with SGI's that have PS/2 ports. So, I'm > right there with you. I only use Model M keyboards. I have one for my Linux box, one for my Mac, and one for the office Mac. I have about five more sitting in the closet of the home office on standby, and I think I have a box of keyboards in storage. The only Model M I'm upset over not getting [1] is the one with the APL symbols on the keys. -spc [1] I was at a Ham fest about a decade ago and my friend snapped up that keyboard before I even saw it. Gr ...
Re: Model M Key Cap Replacement WAS: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On Tue, 31 May 2016, Christopher Satterfield wrote: > Unicomp still sells replacement caps ( > http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe they > have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so-hated > keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find someone > with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free. One can also 3D print keycaps for Cherry MX switches. There are models out there for free. Here's someone doing it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub4cb-u8EWA -Swift
Re: Model M Key Cap Replacement WAS: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
Unicomp still sells replacement caps ( http://www.pckeyboard.com/page/category/Buttons ), however I believe they have a minimum order amount (price). There are also the ever-so-hated keyboard forums where you can often post a "Looking for" and find someone with some spares they'll dump dirt cheap or free.
Model M Key Cap Replacement WAS: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
While on the subject anyone know where one can buy replacement key caps? -Ali
Re: Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On Tue, 31 May 2016, Swift Griggs wrote: > 1. The Logitech Orion Spark G910 with Romer-G switches > 2. The CM Storm Quickfire Pro with MX Blue switches > 3. The Razer Blackwidow with green switches Ahhh, and my anti-keyboard list. These three are supposed to be wonderful. I found them not-so-much-wonderful-as-pathetic: 1. 1990's era Dell "QuietKey" keyboards. Neither quiet nor comfortable. 2. The so-called "Happy Hacker" keyboard. I didn't care for the feel at all. However, they make a Sun version, so bully to them for that! 3. Every rubber dome keyboard ever made == Garbage (IMO). Also, there were some late 1990 model HP keyboard (rare and hard to find) which were right up there with the Model M but had a lighter weight. I remember that one came with a high-end Vectra workstation. I saved one from the dump that I used for years. I really liked it's design (it had grey keys and a beige body). It had no Windows key and the keyweight was amazing. I wish I'd kept it around. The cord got worn out, and I thought "Oh well, I have my Model M's." Mistake, really. -Swift
Keyboards and the Model M (was Re: NEC ProSpeed 386)
On Tue, 31 May 2016, Peter Coghlan wrote: > > It might be interesting to poll the list to see who's still using an IBM > > Model M keyboard on their x86 box. I am. > > Windows key? What Windows key? ;) > > x86 box? What x86 box? ;) Hehe, I use my Model M mostly with SGI's that have PS/2 ports. So, I'm right there with you. I have three model M keyboards, including the M5-2 with colored keys intact. I'm a keyboard nut along with a lot of other list members. I would echo what others have said about it's heavy key weight vis-a-vis other modern high end keyboard such as those based on MX blue switches. It's a little on the "pounding" side which will actually slow you down if you are a touch typist. However, the positive feedback from the buckling spring design can make you faster (because you become sensitive to the tiny 'click' and thus release quickly after that feedback). As far as a PS/2 keyboard they are extremely well built gear. However, these days the Model M is no longer my favorite. The Cherry MX blue switches are superior, IMHO. The main reason being their lower resistance. However, the key caps can also make a big difference. Low weight keys pitched at the wrong angle will still be hard to push, for example. I won't list out the embarrassing number of keyboards I've owned. However, just for posterity my favorites are: 1. The Logitech Orion Spark G910 with Romer-G switches 2. The CM Storm Quickfire Pro with MX Blue switches 3. The Razer Blackwidow with green switches Here's why: 1. It's not the bling/colors, it's the switches. My only complaint is that the keys are slightly more scalloped than I'd like. Other than that, it's a pretty awesome (USB only) keyboard. 2. This is the best Cherry-based keyboard I've encountered. There is some kind of wonderful substance on the keys that makes them continually tacky. For whatever reason, the key weight feels slightly lighter than other MX blue based rigs. I feel that anything beyond the MX blue keywieght is "way too much". This keyboard nails it. 3. Their new model with "green" switches is outrageously light. I can type faster on this keyboard than any other I've tried. However, it requires a bit more care than the Orion, for example. -Swift