Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Jonathan Stone via cctalk]

 

On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 09:14:16 PM PDT, Zane Healy  
wrote:
 [[ reference to service manual for converting BA400 to BA400X ]]

>Do you happen to know what Manual this is?  I’ve spent a lot of the last 
>couple days reading up on the BA430/B400X, and the :KA640/KA660.

I looked for it before posting, and again today. I can't find it. If I do, I'll 
certainly let you know.

  

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 2:35 PM Zane Healy  wrote:
>
> Except for the DSSI cable strangeness, it’s a really nice chassis.  Though 
> after a LOT of reading in the last 24 hours, may are right on it being a 
> mongrel.  It also explains my confusion as to what it is. :-)
>
> https://www.zanesphotography.com/Private/MicroVAX/n-96z8NZ/MicroVAX
>
> This is probably the best of the photo’s of the cabling.
>
> https://www.zanesphotography.com/Private/MicroVAX/n-96z8NZ/MicroVAX/i-vFkfBQ2/A

The 50-pin round cable that plugs into the M7624 KA640 CPU on one end
and into the flat 50-pin ribbon cable on the other end, and the 50-pin
ribbon cable with the two IDC connectors in the middle and the DSSI
bulkhead connector on the other end might be the internal DSSI cabling
removed from a BA215 enclosure.

Maybe what happened is that someone scraped a MicroVAX 3300 and pulled
the M7624 KA640 CPU and internal DSSI cabling out of the BA215
enclosure, and transplanted those into the B400X enclosure, plus added
the external DSSI cable to connect the transplanted BA215 enclosure
DSSI cabling up to the B400X M9715 DSSI bulkhead connector.

Maybe someone here has a spare M7626 KA660 CPU that they could give
you a good deal on to replace your possibly dead M7624 KA640 CPU,
which would clean up the DSSI cabling at the same time. I don't think
I have more M7626 KA660 CPUs on hand myself than BA215/BA430
enclosures to use with them.

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 3:38 PM Jonathan Stone  wrote:
>
> two points:
>
> 1. MS650-AA 8mb modules from a KA650 will work in a KA640. They won't work 
> with a KA655 or a kA660 (or a KN210_. Those need the MS650-BA, or the 16MB 
> MS650-BB, or the third-party 32MB modules. So if your KA640 is dead and you 
> want to upgrade, you will likely need new memory, too. (You likely know this 
> already.)
>

I've been wrong about that for several years. I have always assumed
that an M7621 MS650-AA 8MB memory board was compatible with all of the
M7620 KA650, M7624 KA640, M7625 KA655, and M7626 KA660 CPUs.

I didn't realize until now that an M7621 MS650-AA 8MB memory board is
only compatible with the M7620 KA650 and M7624 KA640 CPUs, and the
M7625 KA655 and M7626 KA660 CPUs are only compatible with the M7622
MS650-BA 16MB memory board (or the less common MS650-BB 8MB version of
the M7622).

Unless I am also wrong about this, the M7622 MS650-B memory boards are
compatible with all of the M7620 KA650, M7624 KA640, M7625 KA655, and
M7626 KA660 CPUs.


KA655 CPU System Maintenance, Order Number EK-306AA-MG-001
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/655/EK-306A-MG-001_655Mnt_Mar89.pdf
Page 1-4 (Page 15 of the PDF)
"NOTE: The KA655 CPU supports only the MS650-BA (16 Mbyte) memory
module. The MS650-AA (8 Mbyte) is not supported because of its slower
access speed."

KA660 CPU System Maintenance, Order Number EK-398AA-MM-001
http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/4000/EK-398AA-MM-001_KA660_CPU_System_Maintenance_Dec90.pdf
Page 1-10 (Page 20 of the PDF)
"1.4 MS650-Bn Memory Modules
The MS650-BA and MS650-BB memory modules are quad-height, Q22-bus
modules. Timing of the MS650-BA (16 MBytes) and MS650-BB (8 MBytes)
modules is dependent upon the KA660 clock speed and CMCTL.
The MS650-AA memory module may not be used with the KA660 system CPU."

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Wed, May 26, 2021 at 2:35 PM Zane Healy  wrote:
>
> One question, do I need to worry about the batteries on the H3602-SA panel?  
> I can’t imagine that this would be causing any issue.
>

Yes, you do need to worry about the Ni-Cad battery pack on the
H3602-SA panel. Remove it and throw it away. If it hasn't started
leaking and causing corrosion yet it is only a matter of time before
it does. I have removed all of the Ni-Cad battery packs from all of
the VAX systems I have.

> An interesting thing about the BA430 backplane is that in addition to
> the M7626 KA660 CPU DSSI bus being present on the 50-pin connector, it
> is also present on the C/D connectors, and the BA430 backplane routes
> the DSSI bus on slot 1 C/D connectors to the DSSI storage device bays
> without the need for a DSSI cable.
>
> I finally found that, in the “KA660 CPU System Maintenance” manual.  What’s 
> interesting is that there is also a 50-pin header on the KA660, and I’m not 
> yet clear on why. :-)
>

The M7626 KA660 VAX 4000-200 was available in BA430 and BA215 enclosures.

VAX 4000 Model 200 (BA215) Installation, Order Number EK-432AB-IN-002
https://manx-docs.org/collections/antonio/dec/MDS-2000-01/cd1/VAX/432ABIN2.PDF

In the BA430 enclosure the KA660 DSSI bus is connected to the DSSI bus
on the backplane through the KA660 C/D connectors, and nothing is
connected to the 50-pin DSSI connector on the front of the KA660
module.

In the BA215 enclosure the DSSI bus is cable based and connects to the
50-pin DSSI connector on the front of the KA660 module.

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On May 26, 2021, at 3:38 PM, Jonathan Stone  wrote:
> On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 02:35:32 PM PDT, Zane Healy via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> []
> 
> two points: 
> 
> 1. MS650-AA 8mb modules from a KA650 will work in a KA640. They won't work 
> with a KA655 or a kA660 (or a KN210_. Those need the MS650-BA, or the 16MB 
> MS650-BB, or the third-party 32MB modules. So if your KA640 is dead and you 
> want to upgrade, you will likely need new memory, too. (You likely know this 
> already.)

THANK YOU!  I didn’t realize this.  I’m not sure what the modules are in the 
MicroVAX 3, or how big they are.  They’re in a computer rack that requires some 
effort to access, so I haven’t gotten to them yet.  It sounds like I’d best 
have a look at RAM...

> 2. A few times over the last year, I've read an online service manual 
> detailing how to turn a BA430 into a BA400X.
> That manual describes pulling the CPU and inserting the DSSI"paddle board" in 
> the first slot. That manual should be. useful in understanding your 
> nonstandard chassis. However, if I recall correctly, I think you need to 
> remove the "paddle board" and put the CPU into the first slot, for 
> bus-termination reasons. The memory modules need to move one slot over to 
> match. I don't know if that will help with your diag failures, but it seems 
> worth trying.

Do you happen to know what Manual this is?  I’ve spent a lot of the last couple 
days reading up on the BA430/B400X, and the KA640/KA660.

Zane

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Jonathan Stone via cctalk]

 

On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 03:38:43 PM PDT, Jonathan Stone via cctalk 
 wrote:

Please ignore point 2. Even the KN220 uses an M9715 in the slot between its 
CVAX I/O board and the power supply.
  

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Jonathan Stone via cctalk]

 

On Wednesday, May 26, 2021, 02:35:32 PM PDT, Zane Healy via cctalk 
 wrote:


[]

two points: 

1. MS650-AA 8mb modules from a KA650 will work in a KA640. They won't work with 
a KA655 or a kA660 (or a KN210_. Those need the MS650-BA, or the 16MB MS650-BB, 
or the third-party 32MB modules. So if your KA640 is dead and you want to 
upgrade, you will likely need new memory, too. (You likely know this already.)

2. A few times over the last year, I've read an online service manual detailing 
how to turn a BA430 into a BA400X.
That manual describes pulling the CPU and inserting the DSSI"paddle board" in 
the first slot. That manual should be. useful in understanding your nonstandard 
chassis. However, if I recall correctly, I think you need to remove the "paddle 
board" and put the CPU into the first slot, for bus-termination reasons. The 
memory modules need to move one slot over to match. I don't know if that will 
help with your diag failures, but it seems worth trying.

  

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

> On May 25, 2021, at 3:50 PM, Glen Slick via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 1:32 PM Zane Healy  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> It turns out that the oddness was the CPU Board, and a 16MB Clearpoint RAM 
>> board.   What I thought was the CPU, is really the header panel over the RAM 
>> and TK70 controller.  There is also a M9715 between the CPU and the 
>> powersupply that I’d missed seeing.  The cables to get to the DSSI connector 
>> by the Powersupply are hanging out the front.  Basically it’s a cable going 
>> from the KA640 to a ribbon cable to a cab kit, then DSSI cable from that to 
>> the connector next to the power supply.
>> 
> 
> Sounds like somewhat of a mongrel system. An M7624 KA640 CPU would
> typically be found in a 12-slot BA213 as a MicroVAX 3400, or in a
> smaller 6-slot BA215 as a MicroVAX 3300.

Except for the DSSI cable strangeness, it’s a really nice chassis.  Though 
after a LOT of reading in the last 24 hours, may are right on it being a 
mongrel.  It also explains my confusion as to what it is. :-)

https://www.zanesphotography.com/Private/MicroVAX/n-96z8NZ/MicroVAX 


This is probably the best of the photo’s of the cabling.

https://www.zanesphotography.com/Private/MicroVAX/n-96z8NZ/MicroVAX/i-vFkfBQ2/A

> As far as I can tell a 12-slot B400X is essentially exactly the same
> thing as a BA430, where it is a BA430 when used as a VAX 4000-200 with
> an M7626 KA660 CPU, and a B400X when used as a Q-bus and storage
> expander.

Based on the BA430/BA440 manual, it looks like the main thing it’s missing from 
a BA430 is the SCP with the “Halt” and “Restart” buttons (it has the temp and 
DC indicators), along with the M7638-YA I/O Module.  I’m trying to find a 
description of what the M7638-YA module does.  The only place where I seem to 
find mention of it is in the BA430/BA440 manual.

From the manual:
Slot 0 - M9715-AA Interface Module
Slot 1 - M7638-YA I/O Module
Slot 2 - CPU Module
Slots 3 - 6 - Memory Modules

My system:
Slot 0 - M9715-AA Interface Module
Slot 1 - KA640
Slot 2 - MS650 (16MB Clearpoint)
Slot 3 - M7559
Slot 4 - M9047
Slot 5 - M9047
Slot 6 - 12 - Empty

This might be a bit odd, but I don’t think this is a problem, I did try pulling 
the M7559.  Really the diagnostics seem to be indicating to me that I have a 
bad KA640 board (specifically faults on at least a couple areas.

One question, do I need to worry about the batteries on the H3602-SA panel?  I 
can’t imagine that this would be causing any issue.

> An interesting thing about the BA430 backplane is that in addition to
> the M7626 KA660 CPU DSSI bus being present on the 50-pin connector, it
> is also present on the C/D connectors, and the BA430 backplane routes
> the DSSI bus on slot 1 C/D connectors to the DSSI storage device bays
> without the need for a DSSI cable.

I finally found that, in the “KA660 CPU System Maintenance” manual.  What’s 
interesting is that there is also a 50-pin header on the KA660, and I’m not yet 
clear on why. :-)

> If I remember correctly the DSSI bus is only present on the 50-pin
> connector of the M7624 KA640 CPU, not on the C/D connectors, so a DSSI
> cable is needed with that CPU.

As near as I can tell this is correct.  It also explains the strange cabling.

> The hidden M9715 board in slot 0 between the CPU slot 1 and the power
> supply provides termination power to the internal DSSI and SCSI buses
> of the BA430 / B400X backplane. It also has a connector which routes
> to the DSSI bus on the C/D connectors. In the BA430 nothing connects
> to the M9715 connector as the DSSI bus should be coming from the M7626
> KA660 CPU C/D connectors. In the B400X there should be an external
> bulkhead DSSI connector with a ribbon cable to the M9715 connector. In
> both the BA430 / B400X there should be another external DSSI connector
> to the left of slot 12, which is the other end of the DSSI bus.

The DSSI bus goes into a cable on the upper left, that then goes to a connector 
on the lower left, with the terminator.  I’ve photo’s of both.  I was 
interested to learn that there is also SCSI cabling in there.

> So it sounds like you have a B400X with the M9715 internally cabled to
> the external bulkhead DSSI connector as usual, and the M7624 KA640 CPU
> internally cabled to an external bulkhead DSSI connector, and then an
> external DSSI cable between those two bulkhead connectors. If that is
> basically how the DSSI things were cabled up, did you also have a DSSI
> terminator on the bulkhead connector to the left of slot 12? Without
> checking this myself with a M7624 KA640 CPU you probably get some sort
> of errors somewhere if the end of the DSSI bus is not terminated.

As near as I can tell, I have the B400X config for the M9715, and the 
terminator is in place.

> If you were to find an M7626 KA660 CPU you could do away with all of
> the DSSI cabling between the CPU and the M9715 (in addition to having
> a C

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 8:33 PM Zane Healy via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> I just pulled out my blue box of fiche (VAX MDS), and verified I have the 
> B400X manual, which isn’t online.  I’ll see about borrowing a fiche reader 
> tomorrow.  I’ve never bothered to get one, I just borrow my Mom’s portable 
> reader, when I need it.
>

If you don't already have a copy of this one, it might be helpful:

400 Series Enclosures Illustrated Parts Breakdown, BA440, BA430, R400X, B400X
https://vaxhaven.com/images/9/9d/EK-440AB-IP-002.pdf

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On May 25, 2021, at 3:09 PM, Antonio Carlini via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> SII is the built-in DSSI interface. Is it terminated properly?

As best as I can tell, especially after taking it partially apart this 
afternoon, it is.  The terminator glows green.

> SSC is (iirc) the System Support Chip ... that may be more serious.

At this point, I suspect I have a CPU board that is partially dead.

> FWIW I think the distinction between the 3300/3400 is the size of the box: 
> the innards are the same. (So same as the 3500/3600 and 3800/3900 and the 
> uV3100-30/40 etc.).

I knew that was the case with the 3300/3400, 3500/3600, and 3800/3900.  I feel 
a bit foolish to finally realize this is the case with the MicroVAX 3100-30/40, 
and others.

> Both the uV3300 and the uV3400 use the KA640 board.

As Glen points out, there is something strange about this one, as the chassis 
is even larger than a 3400.

> If you plug KA640 into manx you'll find two useful manuals online.

Thanks, I’m not sure I’ve ever used the site, though I’ve heard about it for 
years.  I’d found the “KA640 CPU System Maintenance” manual, I hadn’t found the 
“KA640 CPU Module Technical Manual”.  Hopefully it has some of the information 
I’m now searching for.

I just pulled out my blue box of fiche (VAX MDS), and verified I have the B400X 
manual, which isn’t online.  I’ll see about borrowing a fiche reader tomorrow.  
I’ve never bothered to get one, I just borrow my Mom’s portable reader, when I 
need it.

Zane

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 1:32 PM Zane Healy  wrote:
>
>
> It turns out that the oddness was the CPU Board, and a 16MB Clearpoint RAM 
> board.   What I thought was the CPU, is really the header panel over the RAM 
> and TK70 controller.  There is also a M9715 between the CPU and the 
> powersupply that I’d missed seeing.  The cables to get to the DSSI connector 
> by the Powersupply are hanging out the front.  Basically it’s a cable going 
> from the KA640 to a ribbon cable to a cab kit, then DSSI cable from that to 
> the connector next to the power supply.
>

Sounds like somewhat of a mongrel system. An M7624 KA640 CPU would
typically be found in a 12-slot BA213 as a MicroVAX 3400, or in a
smaller 6-slot BA215 as a MicroVAX 3300.

As far as I can tell a 12-slot B400X is essentially exactly the same
thing as a BA430, where it is a BA430 when used as a VAX 4000-200 with
an M7626 KA660 CPU, and a B400X when used as a Q-bus and storage
expander.

An interesting thing about the BA430 backplane is that in addition to
the M7626 KA660 CPU DSSI bus being present on the 50-pin connector, it
is also present on the C/D connectors, and the BA430 backplane routes
the DSSI bus on slot 1 C/D connectors to the DSSI storage device bays
without the need for a DSSI cable.

If I remember correctly the DSSI bus is only present on the 50-pin
connector of the M7624 KA640 CPU, not on the C/D connectors, so a DSSI
cable is needed with that CPU.

The hidden M9715 board in slot 0 between the CPU slot 1 and the power
supply provides termination power to the internal DSSI and SCSI buses
of the BA430 / B400X backplane. It also has a connector which routes
to the DSSI bus on the C/D connectors. In the BA430 nothing connects
to the M9715 connector as the DSSI bus should be coming from the M7626
KA660 CPU C/D connectors. In the B400X there should be an external
bulkhead DSSI connector with a ribbon cable to the M9715 connector. In
both the BA430 / B400X there should be another external DSSI connector
to the left of slot 12, which is the other end of the DSSI bus.

So it sounds like you have a B400X with the M9715 internally cabled to
the external bulkhead DSSI connector as usual, and the M7624 KA640 CPU
internally cabled to an external bulkhead DSSI connector, and then an
external DSSI cable between those two bulkhead connectors. If that is
basically how the DSSI things were cabled up, did you also have a DSSI
terminator on the bulkhead connector to the left of slot 12? Without
checking this myself with a M7624 KA640 CPU you probably get some sort
of errors somewhere if the end of the DSSI bus is not terminated.

If you were to find an M7626 KA660 CPU you could do away with all of
the DSSI cabling between the CPU and the M9715 (in addition to having
a CPU that is around twice as fast).

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Antonio Carlini via cctalk]

On 25/05/2021 18:53, Zane Healy via cctalk wrote:

I’m still not 100% sure if this is a 3300 or a 3400.  It’s in a BA400X chassis, 
and after looking at the manuals last night, it seems like it’s closer to the 
3400. My familarity with Q-Bus MicroVAXen is limited to MicroVAX/VAXstation 
II’s, and a MicroVAX 3.

After getting a power cable (the only one at PCH Cables was a 3’ one, and I 
didn’t want to wait for more to come in), it powered right up, but is failing 4 
tests.

I quickly learned last night that “TEST 9E” prints all the tests out to screen. 
 This effort is making me wish I had a DEC LA50 plugged into the terminal. :-)

It starts counting down diagnostics at “41”.

27..
?57 2 17 FF 00 

22..
?C2 2 01 FF 00 0001

07..
?5C 2 01 FF 00 0002

06..
?5D 2 0B FF 00 0003

57 = SI_memory  incr test_matter *
C2 = SSC RAM ALL*
5C = SII_initiator  **
5D = SII target ***

I think this is indicating issues with the DSSI interface.  The system has two 
RF73 DSSI drives, which sound like they spin up.  It also has a TK70 tape 
drive.  It says it has 4MB and 16MB RAM, all good.

One odd thing is that the KA640-A seems to plug into another board, before the 
DSSI drives. I’m getting ready to dig into that, and find out what that board 
is.

Zane



SII is the built-in DSSI interface. Is it terminated properly?

SSC is (iirc) the System Support Chip ... that may be more serious.


FWIW I think the distinction between the 3300/3400 is the size of the 
box: the innards are the same. (So same as the 3500/3600 and 3800/3900 
and the uV3100-30/40 etc.).


Both the uV3300 and the uV3400 use the KA640 board.


If you plug KA640 into manx you'll find two useful manuals online.


Antonio


--
Antonio Carlini
anto...@acarlini.com

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

On May 25, 2021, at 11:54 AM, Glen Slick via cctalk  
wrote:
> 
> On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 10:54 AM Zane Healy via cctalk
>  wrote:
>> 
>> One odd thing is that the KA640-A seems to plug into another board, before 
>> the DSSI drives. I’m getting ready to dig into that, and find out what that 
>> board is.
>> 
> 
> Is that an M9715 board plugged into the backplane between the CPU
> board slot and the power supply, or something else?
> 
> Or is there a cable plugged into the DSSI connector on the M7624 KA640
> adjacent to the memory bus connector that plugs into a some board and
> stops there, and then another cable from that board to the DSSI
> drives? Do the DSSI drives plug into the backplane, or do they have
> cables connecting to them?

It turns out that the oddness was the CPU Board, and a 16MB Clearpoint RAM 
board.   What I thought was the CPU, is really the header panel over the RAM 
and TK70 controller.  There is also a M9715 between the CPU and the powersupply 
that I’d missed seeing.  The cables to get to the DSSI connector by the 
Powersupply are hanging out the front.  Basically it’s a cable going from the 
KA640 to a ribbon cable to a cab kit, then DSSI cable from that to the 
connector next to the power supply.

I disconnected the DSSI cable from the KA640 (M7624), and got the same errors.  

The more I play with this, the more I like the chassis, and the more I want to 
get it going.  This chassis is definitely better than the 3rd party rack-mount 
chassis that my MicroVAX 3 lives in.  If it was working, it would simply need 
my RLV12 moved to it to be perfect.

At this point, I’m suspecting an issue with the KA640 board.

Zane

Re: MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Tue, May 25, 2021 at 10:54 AM Zane Healy via cctalk
 wrote:
>
> One odd thing is that the KA640-A seems to plug into another board, before 
> the DSSI drives. I’m getting ready to dig into that, and find out what that 
> board is.
>

Is that an M9715 board plugged into the backplane between the CPU
board slot and the power supply, or something else?

Or is there a cable plugged into the DSSI connector on the M7624 KA640
adjacent to the memory bus connector that plugs into a some board and
stops there, and then another cable from that board to the DSSI
drives? Do the DSSI drives plug into the backplane, or do they have
cables connecting to them?

MicroVAX 3300/3400

[Zane Healy via cctalk]

I’m still not 100% sure if this is a 3300 or a 3400.  It’s in a BA400X chassis, 
and after looking at the manuals last night, it seems like it’s closer to the 
3400. My familarity with Q-Bus MicroVAXen is limited to MicroVAX/VAXstation 
II’s, and a MicroVAX 3.

After getting a power cable (the only one at PCH Cables was a 3’ one, and I 
didn’t want to wait for more to come in), it powered right up, but is failing 4 
tests.

I quickly learned last night that “TEST 9E” prints all the tests out to screen. 
 This effort is making me wish I had a DEC LA50 plugged into the terminal. :-)

It starts counting down diagnostics at “41”.

27..
?57 2 17 FF 00 

22..
?C2 2 01 FF 00 0001

07..
?5C 2 01 FF 00 0002

06..
?5D 2 0B FF 00 0003

57 = SI_memory  incr test_matter *
C2 = SSC RAM ALL*
5C = SII_initiator  **
5D = SII target ***

I think this is indicating issues with the DSSI interface.  The system has two 
RF73 DSSI drives, which sound like they spin up.  It also has a TK70 tape 
drive.  It says it has 4MB and 16MB RAM, all good.

One odd thing is that the KA640-A seems to plug into another board, before the 
DSSI drives. I’m getting ready to dig into that, and find out what that board 
is.

Zane