Re: Microvax II 'primer'?

[Jules Richardson via cctalk]

On 01/21/2018 01:25 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:


So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I hurt) a
Microvax II from another list member yesterday.


OK, the top PSU of the pair in this machine appears to be healthy. The 
bottom one, however, sits at around 2.5V on both the +5V and +12V outputs. 
That's without any cards, and the card-cage fan / temperature sensor 
unplugged, i.e. just with my dummy loads in place, so it looks like that 
PSU has issues (oh, and I tried decoupling the PSU from the backplane and 
loading it via the drive connector, so it doesn't appear to be a backplane 
issue).


I expect it's fixable, but I'm unsure what the system may have done at the 
point it originally failed, given that it was responsible for both the 
card-cage fan and the temperature sensor - hopefully it didn't sit there 
for hours with no card cooling, no overheat sensor, and with power applied 
to [at least some of] the cards via the still-working PSU.


Jules

Re: Microvax II 'primer'?

[allison via cctalk]

On 01/23/2018 07:58 PM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote:
> On 01/22/2018 02:05 PM, allison via cctech wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 1/22/18 2:18 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:
>>> I can't believe you 'just carry it into the house' all by yourself,
>>> unless you are professional athlete.
>>> I also have a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box and it has wheels
>>> for a
>>> reason!  The damn thing weighs 130 lbs!
>>> I took it to the VCF East last year, never do that again.  Too heavy.
>>>
>> Huge difference between BA23 and ba123 as the BA123 is about twice
>> the size
>> and internal board space.
>
> Mine's the BA123, the bigger one. It's heavy! I lifted it out of the
> van myself and put it onto one of the kids' old sleds so that I could
> drag it through the snow to the door it needed to go through, then
> picked it up again and took it up the few steps that were necessary.
> Did I mention that it was heavy?
>
> I did take the side panels off, which helped a lot - I could lift it
> (just) then with one hand around the top edge and the other on the
> metal bar at the bottom by the power inlet. I certainly wouldn't want
> to carry one far.
>
Your younger than I.  I moved min in the summer so the wheels were good
end ough anda 2WD Toyota pickup (1999) is low
so it was slide it up and in.  Using a a winch didn't hurt either.


>>> Yes, remove the NiCad battery.
>>>
>> Its easily replaced.
>
> Does leaving it out entirely cause any issues (at least during a
> testing phase)?
>
> If it's actually holding a charge at present (I seriously doubt it,
> but it doesn't appear to have leaked) is there any benefit to leaving
> it in initially - i.e. is it responsible for retaining any settings
> (e.g. disk parameters) that it would be useful for me to write down -
> assuming the system proves to be operational - before replacing it?
>
If its working and not leaking go for it.  Its easy to replace when you
need to.

>> RD53s had a problem with the head sticking against the stops.  I repair
>> them, yes I open them
>> unstick it then remove the offending the rubber parts.
>
> That's useful to know - I'm certainly not against doing that myself if
> it proves necessary (assuming that's the drive I have)
>
My favorite line for all this is Kaplagh~!  Go for it and get the docs
they can really help! 

Allison


> cheers
>
> Jules
>

Re: Microvax II 'primer'?

[Jules Richardson via cctalk]

On 01/22/2018 02:05 PM, allison via cctech wrote:



On 1/22/18 2:18 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:

I can't believe you 'just carry it into the house' all by yourself,
unless you are professional athlete.
I also have a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box and it has wheels for a
reason!  The damn thing weighs 130 lbs!
I took it to the VCF East last year, never do that again.  Too heavy.


Huge difference between BA23 and ba123 as the BA123 is about twice the size
and internal board space.


Mine's the BA123, the bigger one. It's heavy! I lifted it out of the van 
myself and put it onto one of the kids' old sleds so that I could drag it 
through the snow to the door it needed to go through, then picked it up 
again and took it up the few steps that were necessary. Did I mention that 
it was heavy?


I did take the side panels off, which helped a lot - I could lift it (just) 
then with one hand around the top edge and the other on the metal bar at 
the bottom by the power inlet. I certainly wouldn't want to carry one far.



Yes, remove the NiCad battery.


Its easily replaced.


Does leaving it out entirely cause any issues (at least during a testing 
phase)?


If it's actually holding a charge at present (I seriously doubt it, but it 
doesn't appear to have leaked) is there any benefit to leaving it in 
initially - i.e. is it responsible for retaining any settings (e.g. disk 
parameters) that it would be useful for me to write down - assuming the 
system proves to be operational - before replacing it?



RD53s had a problem with the head sticking against the stops.  I repair
them, yes I open them
unstick it then remove the offending the rubber parts.


That's useful to know - I'm certainly not against doing that myself if it 
proves necessary (assuming that's the drive I have)


cheers

Jules

Re: Microvax II 'primer'?

[Douglas Taylor via cctalk]

On 1/23/2018 7:58 PM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote:

On 01/22/2018 02:05 PM, allison via cctech wrote:



On 1/22/18 2:18 PM, Douglas Taylor via cctech wrote:

I can't believe you 'just carry it into the house' all by yourself,
unless you are professional athlete.
I also have a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box and it has wheels 
for a

reason!  The damn thing weighs 130 lbs!
I took it to the VCF East last year, never do that again.  Too heavy.

Huge difference between BA23 and ba123 as the BA123 is about twice 
the size

and internal board space.


Mine's the BA123, the bigger one. It's heavy! I lifted it out of the 
van myself and put it onto one of the kids' old sleds so that I could 
drag it through the snow to the door it needed to go through, then 
picked it up again and took it up the few steps that were necessary. 
Did I mention that it was heavy?
It won't get stolen.  At VCF there were some young folks who helped me, 
thanks to them!


I did take the side panels off, which helped a lot - I could lift it 
(just) then with one hand around the top edge and the other on the 
metal bar at the bottom by the power inlet. I certainly wouldn't want 
to carry one far.



Yes, remove the NiCad battery.


Its easily replaced.


Does leaving it out entirely cause any issues (at least during a 
testing phase)?
I was able to start and run the machine w/o the battery.  Had to enter 
the date/time each startup.  Not sure what else was remembered by the 
battery backup.


If it's actually holding a charge at present (I seriously doubt it, 
but it doesn't appear to have leaked) is there any benefit to leaving 
it in initially - i.e. is it responsible for retaining any settings 
(e.g. disk parameters) that it would be useful for me to write down - 
assuming the system proves to be operational - before replacing it?



RD53s had a problem with the head sticking against the stops.  I repair
them, yes I open them
unstick it then remove the offending the rubber parts.


That's useful to know - I'm certainly not against doing that myself if 
it proves necessary (assuming that's the drive I have)

I saved the RD53's, maybe they can be revived.


cheers

Jules

Re: Microvax II 'primer'?

[Jules Richardson via cctalk]

On 01/22/2018 08:07 AM, Adrian Graham via cctalk wrote:

At this stage I've got no idea if it's a SMPSU or a linear (I've not

popped the panel off)... I suppose if it's linear then it perhaps doesn't
even need a load to do its thing. If it's a switcher then I expect it'll at
least need something on +5V, and maybe +12V too (unless it has built-in
load resistors to keep the regulation happy, as designs occasionally do).

It's actually 3 separate boards and 2 identical discrete PSUs for +12 and
+5 in a massive metal box, the thing is a beast and fits along the whole
side of the machine behind the Q22 backplane.


Aha, so it is... I just removed it for a visual inspection. Pretty clean 
inside, some dust, five or six mouse turds (but no sign of piss damage), a 
chunk of slate, and a golf tee.


When the bit of slate fell out I was a little concerned that it was a 
fragment of ceramic IC/component packaging, but I really do think it's just 
a piece of slate tile or whatnot that had somehow found its way in there 
over the years.


No obviously-roached caps or other components, so I'll figure out some form 
of loading and give it a go.


cheers

J.

Re: Microvax II 'primer'?

[Douglas Taylor via cctalk]

I can't believe you 'just carry it into the house' all by yourself, 
unless you are professional athlete.
I also have a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box and it has wheels for a 
reason!  The damn thing weighs 130 lbs!

I took it to the VCF East last year, never do that again.  Too heavy.

When I got mine, it had only 3MB of memory and I found that I couldn't 
install VMS 5.5-2 or 7.3 with that amount of memory.  I put in an 8 MB 
board and 11 MB total was fine.


You should make your own cable to connect the console to a PC or 
terminal.  Its that odd.  I found the PC connection to be helpful 
because you can log what you are doing.


Yes, remove the NiCad battery.

The box I got had 3 RD53 disks in it and none worked.  I am using a 
Viking SCSI controller and a SCSI2SD drive to boot the system.
I left the RX50 drives in and reconfigured the RQDX2 to address them.  
They come in handy for getting the VMS hobbyist licenses in.

The TK50 never worked.

I put a DELQA in for networking, never tried a DEQNA.

I consider it an important machine in computing history.  It allowed 
scientific researchers, like myself, to get off of remote mainframes 
that billed at fantastic rates and compute in a more relaxed environment.

BTW there is one in the Air & Space Museum in Washington DC.

On 1/21/2018 2:25 PM, Jules Richardson via cctech wrote:


So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I 
hurt) a Microvax II from another list member yesterday. Cosmetically 
it's a disaster (BA123 has a cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing 
front door, missing right-rear panel) but internally it appears to be 
complete; board wise we have:


  M7606 - CPU
  M7608 - 4MB ram
  M9047 - grant continuity
  M7504 - DEQNA ethernet
  M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial
  M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller
  M7546 - TX50 controller

... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity).

Operational status is a complete unknown, and I have absolutely zero 
knowledge about these systems - so my question at this stage is what 
background reading I need to be doing in terms of pre-powerup* checks, 
actually hooking a console, if there's a suggested minimal config I 
can use to diag the CPU, and then (assuming it gets to that point) how 
to actually use the thing (I'm assuming it was running VMS rather than 
Ultrix, but I don't know for sure). I'm wondering there aren't any 
handy tutorials out there, alongside whatever DEC docs are recommended.


* e.g. for most machines I'd be thinking in terms of pulling all 
boards/drives, hooking up a dummy load to whatever PSU rails required 
it, and then at least running the PSU up in isolation first, but I 
don't know to what extent this machine requires some logic in place 
for the PSU to even run.


cheers

Jules

Re: Microvax II 'primer'?

[allison via cctalk]

On 1/22/18 8:43 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:

On 01/21/2018 04:04 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:

You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke soon after you
connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on.


Yes, Adrian Graham mentioned that (via FB), too. I seem to have 
extremely good luck with the RF filter caps, unlike other people, but 
I'm always prepared for the cloud of smoke :-)


I have several BA23 boxes both PDP11 and MicroVAX and never had this 
problem.

I may be a Eu (230V ac) issue.


Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually for any 
obviously

failed electrolytics. If  you have one of the DEC load boards you could
connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think there is much 
in the

way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU.


At this stage I've got no idea if it's a SMPSU or a linear (I've not 
popped the panel off)... I suppose if it's linear then it perhaps 
doesn't even need a load to do its thing. If it's a switcher then I 
expect it'll at least need something on +5V, and maybe +12V too 
(unless it has built-in load resistors to keep the regulation happy, 
as designs occasionally do).


Its a SMPS.  It must be loaded to work right and there are no loading 
resistors.


FYI there ca be an ISSUE with the SMPS to backplane cable.  The correct 
part has equal
length wires.  The earlier version of the cable had unequal length wires 
and tended to

overheat some of the pins and fail.  Be aware.


I see on the output rating label that it lists connection points for 
different outputs, so maybe I just need to slap a couple of suitable 
resistors onto the +5V and +12V outputs so that they draw an amp or 
so, and see how it goes.



Once you have the machine up and running...


Lets not get ahead of ourselves ;-)


I am not sure if 4MB is enough to do that though.


For MicroVMS its adequate but minimal.  Typical systems had 8 or 12MB 
though 16mb was possible.
For VMS 5 the DEQNA is fine if working, also you need 8mb to run well.  
With 12mb or more and a large disk (min RD54) VMS 6 or later is possible 
with DELQA (required after VMS5.4).


It will also run NetBSD (Myneed 8MB) and also Ultrix.

For disks

RD53 is 31mb (maybe adequate for MicroVMS), RD53 is about 70MB, RD54 is 
153mb.
The RD 54 is the biggest drive for the RQDX disk controller.  IF a CMD 
scsi controller
is in there then RZ scsi drives can be used and small started at about 
300mb and up.


Hmm, one of the things that I'm clueless about right now is how the 
bus evolved over the years - I've still got a pile of Q-bus boards 
which I saved from a recycler last year, and I know there's a 4MB 
board (made by Clearpoint, if I remember right) among them. But if 
that's designed for earlier PDP hardware then it's possibly no use 
whatsoever in a Vax world...


The correct board for MicroVAXII cpu has the over the top connector that 
lines up with the cpu

and needs a IDC 50 pin connector for CPU and each board, max of 3.

DO get the MicroVAX tech and user manual off bitsavers.  It will help 
greatly.   FYI many PDP11
board can be used to the limit of the backplane space the exception is 
memory as it must

be MicrovaxII  PMI (private memory bus interface).

FYI there are three possible cpus.  MicroVAX-I not much use as it very 
limited, MicroVAXII KA630
was the stock cpu and the later KA650 coule be installed.  All three use 
memory unique to that

CPU.

Also learn the backplane as it has unique slots for CPU and memory and 
shuffling cards can

cause problems.

The panel on the back cover carries the console connector and the TOY 
(time of year) battery

backup (NICd) that do fail and leak.  Replace.

Also the default NI interface is AUI so an AUI too Either coax or Cat 3 
or 5 wire is needed.


Like I said get the book its a very interesting machine and if the disk 
has a valid and boot able

OS there is a specific procedure for lost system password.

Allison

Re: Microvax II 'primer'?

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 01/22/2018 07:43 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:

On 01/21/2018 04:04 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke 
soon after you

connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on.


Yes, Adrian Graham mentioned that (via FB), too. I seem to 
have extremely good luck with the RF filter caps, unlike 
other people, but I'm always prepared for the cloud of 
smoke :-)


Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually 
for any obviously
failed electrolytics. If  you have one of the DEC load 
boards you could
connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think 
there is much in the

way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU.


At this stage I've got no idea if it's a SMPSU or a linear 
(I've not popped the panel off)... I suppose if it's 
linear then it perhaps doesn't even need a load to do its 
thing. If it's a switcher then I expect it'll at least 
need something on +5V, and maybe +12V too (unless it has 
built-in load resistors to keep the regulation happy, as 
designs occasionally do).


All VAX and uVAX main power supplies are switching types.  
If you see an electrolytic cap in there with a 200+ V 
rating, that's a certain giveaway of a switching supply.


Jon

Re: Microvax II 'primer'?

[Adrian Graham via cctalk]

>At this stage I've got no idea if it's a SMPSU or a linear (I've not
popped the panel off)... I suppose if it's linear then it perhaps doesn't
even need a load to do its thing. If it's a switcher then I expect it'll at
least need something on +5V, and maybe +12V too (unless it has built-in
load resistors to keep the regulation happy, as designs occasionally do).

It's actually 3 separate boards and 2 identical discrete PSUs for +12 and
+5 in a massive metal box, the thing is a beast and fits along the whole
side of the machine behind the Q22 backplane.

Cheers

A

On 22 January 2018 at 13:43, Jules Richardson via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> On 01/21/2018 04:04 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
>
>> You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke soon after you
>> connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on.
>>
>
> Yes, Adrian Graham mentioned that (via FB), too. I seem to have extremely
> good luck with the RF filter caps, unlike other people, but I'm always
> prepared for the cloud of smoke :-)
>
> Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually for any obviously
>> failed electrolytics. If  you have one of the DEC load boards you could
>> connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think there is much in
>> the
>> way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU.
>>
>
> At this stage I've got no idea if it's a SMPSU or a linear (I've not
> popped the panel off)... I suppose if it's linear then it perhaps doesn't
> even need a load to do its thing. If it's a switcher then I expect it'll at
> least need something on +5V, and maybe +12V too (unless it has built-in
> load resistors to keep the regulation happy, as designs occasionally do).
>
> I see on the output rating label that it lists connection points for
> different outputs, so maybe I just need to slap a couple of suitable
> resistors onto the +5V and +12V outputs so that they draw an amp or so, and
> see how it goes.
>
> Once you have the machine up and running...
>>
>
> Lets not get ahead of ourselves ;-)
>
> I am not sure if 4MB is enough to do that though.
>>
>
> Hmm, one of the things that I'm clueless about right now is how the bus
> evolved over the years - I've still got a pile of Q-bus boards which I
> saved from a recycler last year, and I know there's a 4MB board (made by
> Clearpoint, if I remember right) among them. But if that's designed for
> earlier PDP hardware then it's possibly no use whatsoever in a Vax world...
>
> cheers
>
> Jules
>
>


-- 
adrian/witchy
Owner of Binary Dinosaurs, the UK's biggest home computer collection?
www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk

Re: Microvax II 'primer'?

[Jules Richardson via cctalk]

On 01/21/2018 04:04 PM, Rob Jarratt wrote:

You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke soon after you
connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on.


Yes, Adrian Graham mentioned that (via FB), too. I seem to have extremely 
good luck with the RF filter caps, unlike other people, but I'm always 
prepared for the cloud of smoke :-)



Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually for any obviously
failed electrolytics. If  you have one of the DEC load boards you could
connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think there is much in the
way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU.


At this stage I've got no idea if it's a SMPSU or a linear (I've not popped 
the panel off)... I suppose if it's linear then it perhaps doesn't even 
need a load to do its thing. If it's a switcher then I expect it'll at 
least need something on +5V, and maybe +12V too (unless it has built-in 
load resistors to keep the regulation happy, as designs occasionally do).


I see on the output rating label that it lists connection points for 
different outputs, so maybe I just need to slap a couple of suitable 
resistors onto the +5V and +12V outputs so that they draw an amp or so, and 
see how it goes.



Once you have the machine up and running...


Lets not get ahead of ourselves ;-)


I am not sure if 4MB is enough to do that though.


Hmm, one of the things that I'm clueless about right now is how the bus 
evolved over the years - I've still got a pile of Q-bus boards which I 
saved from a recycler last year, and I know there's a 4MB board (made by 
Clearpoint, if I remember right) among them. But if that's designed for 
earlier PDP hardware then it's possibly no use whatsoever in a Vax world...


cheers

Jules

RE: Microvax II 'primer'?

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

When I was talking about VMS 5.x I meant that cluster to net boot from. I would 
suggest MicroVMS for the machine itself.

 

Regards

 

Rob

 

From: wl...@bsdimp.com [mailto:wl...@bsdimp.com] On Behalf Of Warner Losh
Sent: 21 January 2018 22:52
To: r...@jarratt.me.uk; Rob Jarratt <robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com>; General 
Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
Cc: Jules Richardson <jules.richardso...@gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Microvax II 'primer'?

 

 

 

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 3:50 PM, Warner Losh <i...@bsdimp.com 
<mailto:i...@bsdimp.com> > wrote:

 

 

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 3:04 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk <cctalk@classiccmp.org 
<mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org> > wrote:



> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org 
> <mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org> ] On Behalf Of Jules
> Richardson via cctalk
> Sent: 21 January 2018 19:26
> To: xx Classiccmp mailing list <cctalk@classiccmp.org 
> <mailto:cctalk@classiccmp.org> >
> Subject: Microvax II 'primer'?
>
>
> So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I hurt) a
Microvax
> II from another list member yesterday. Cosmetically it's a disaster (BA123
has a
> cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing front door, missing right-rear
panel)
> but internally it appears to be complete; board wise we have:
>
>M7606 - CPU
>M7608 - 4MB ram
>M9047 - grant continuity
>M7504 - DEQNA ethernet
>M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial
>M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller
>M7546 - TX50 controller
>
> ... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity).
>
> Operational status is a complete unknown, and I have absolutely zero
> knowledge about these systems - so my question at this stage is what
> background reading I need to be doing in terms of pre-powerup* checks,
> actually hooking a console, if there's a suggested minimal config I can
use to
> diag the CPU, and then (assuming it gets to that point) how to actually
use the
> thing (I'm assuming it was running VMS rather than Ultrix, but I don't
know for
> sure). I'm wondering there aren't any handy tutorials out there, alongside
> whatever DEC docs are recommended.
>
> * e.g. for most machines I'd be thinking in terms of pulling all
boards/drives,
> hooking up a dummy load to whatever PSU rails required it, and then at
least
> running the PSU up in isolation first, but I don't know to what extent
this
> machine requires some logic in place for the PSU to even run.
>
> cheers
>



You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke soon after you
connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on. It doesn't
actually do any damage and the PSU will continue to work (assuming it is
just the filter capacitor). Check it, it is likely cracked and will soon go.
If I remember correctly there are actually two of three of these (marked
"RIFA"), it is probably a good idea just to replace them before they go.
Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually for any obviously
failed electrolytics. If  you have one of the DEC load boards you could
connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think there is much in the
way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU.

Once you have the machine up and running the easiest thing to do is to boot
it over the DEQNA by setting up a cluster on SIMH and making your MicroVAX
II a satellite. I am not sure if 4MB is enough to do that though. Go with a
5.x version of VMS as I believe later versions may not support the DEQNA.

 

Doh! Hit send too soon:

 

The website http://antinode.info/dec/deqna_settings.html says

 

The DEQNA is obsolete (even by Q-bus standards), troublesome 
<http://antinode.info/dec/deqna_settings.html#Troubles> , and not supported by 
VMS <http://antinode.info/dec/deqna_settings.html#VMS_Support>  since about 
V5.4. A compatible card, the DELQA 
<http://antinode.info/dec/delqa_settings.html> , replaces the DEQNA. 

 

the rest is me

 

I was going to say VMS 4 is a better bet since 5 removed support, but looks 
like 5.4 is the last version with support. Though the MicroVAX is UP, so you 
might be better off with VMS 4 instead of VMS 5.

 

Warner

 

Re: Microvax II 'primer'?

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 3:50 PM, Warner Losh <i...@bsdimp.com> wrote:

>
>
> On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 3:04 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk <
> cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> > -Original Message-
>> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules
>> > Richardson via cctalk
>> > Sent: 21 January 2018 19:26
>> > To: xx Classiccmp mailing list <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
>> > Subject: Microvax II 'primer'?
>> >
>> >
>> > So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I
>> hurt) a
>> Microvax
>> > II from another list member yesterday. Cosmetically it's a disaster
>> (BA123
>> has a
>> > cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing front door, missing right-rear
>> panel)
>> > but internally it appears to be complete; board wise we have:
>> >
>> >M7606 - CPU
>> >M7608 - 4MB ram
>> >M9047 - grant continuity
>> >M7504 - DEQNA ethernet
>> >M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial
>> >M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller
>> >M7546 - TX50 controller
>> >
>> > ... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity).
>> >
>> > Operational status is a complete unknown, and I have absolutely zero
>> > knowledge about these systems - so my question at this stage is what
>> > background reading I need to be doing in terms of pre-powerup* checks,
>> > actually hooking a console, if there's a suggested minimal config I can
>> use to
>> > diag the CPU, and then (assuming it gets to that point) how to actually
>> use the
>> > thing (I'm assuming it was running VMS rather than Ultrix, but I don't
>> know for
>> > sure). I'm wondering there aren't any handy tutorials out there,
>> alongside
>> > whatever DEC docs are recommended.
>> >
>> > * e.g. for most machines I'd be thinking in terms of pulling all
>> boards/drives,
>> > hooking up a dummy load to whatever PSU rails required it, and then at
>> least
>> > running the PSU up in isolation first, but I don't know to what extent
>> this
>> > machine requires some logic in place for the PSU to even run.
>> >
>> > cheers
>> >
>>
>>
>> You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke soon after you
>> connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on. It doesn't
>> actually do any damage and the PSU will continue to work (assuming it is
>> just the filter capacitor). Check it, it is likely cracked and will soon
>> go.
>> If I remember correctly there are actually two of three of these (marked
>> "RIFA"), it is probably a good idea just to replace them before they go.
>> Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually for any obviously
>> failed electrolytics. If  you have one of the DEC load boards you could
>> connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think there is much in
>> the
>> way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU.
>>
>> Once you have the machine up and running the easiest thing to do is to
>> boot
>> it over the DEQNA by setting up a cluster on SIMH and making your MicroVAX
>> II a satellite. I am not sure if 4MB is enough to do that though. Go with
>> a
>> 5.x version of VMS as I believe later versions may not support the DEQNA.
>>
>
> Doh! Hit send too soon:

The website http://antinode.info/dec/deqna_settings.html says


> The DEQNA is obsolete (even by Q-bus standards), troublesome
> <http://antinode.info/dec/deqna_settings.html#Troubles>, and not
> supported by VMS
> <http://antinode.info/dec/deqna_settings.html#VMS_Support> since about
> V5.4. A compatible card, the DELQA
> <http://antinode.info/dec/delqa_settings.html>, replaces the DEQNA.
>

the rest is me


> I was going to say VMS 4 is a better bet since 5 removed support, but
> looks like 5.4 is the last version with support. Though the MicroVAX is UP,
> so you might be better off with VMS 4 instead of VMS 5.
>
> Warner
>

Re: Microvax II 'primer'?

[Warner Losh via cctalk]

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 3:04 PM, Rob Jarratt via cctalk <
cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:

>
>
> > -Original Message-
> > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules
> > Richardson via cctalk
> > Sent: 21 January 2018 19:26
> > To: xx Classiccmp mailing list <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> > Subject: Microvax II 'primer'?
> >
> >
> > So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I hurt)
> a
> Microvax
> > II from another list member yesterday. Cosmetically it's a disaster
> (BA123
> has a
> > cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing front door, missing right-rear
> panel)
> > but internally it appears to be complete; board wise we have:
> >
> >M7606 - CPU
> >M7608 - 4MB ram
> >M9047 - grant continuity
> >M7504 - DEQNA ethernet
> >M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial
> >M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller
> >M7546 - TX50 controller
> >
> > ... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity).
> >
> > Operational status is a complete unknown, and I have absolutely zero
> > knowledge about these systems - so my question at this stage is what
> > background reading I need to be doing in terms of pre-powerup* checks,
> > actually hooking a console, if there's a suggested minimal config I can
> use to
> > diag the CPU, and then (assuming it gets to that point) how to actually
> use the
> > thing (I'm assuming it was running VMS rather than Ultrix, but I don't
> know for
> > sure). I'm wondering there aren't any handy tutorials out there,
> alongside
> > whatever DEC docs are recommended.
> >
> > * e.g. for most machines I'd be thinking in terms of pulling all
> boards/drives,
> > hooking up a dummy load to whatever PSU rails required it, and then at
> least
> > running the PSU up in isolation first, but I don't know to what extent
> this
> > machine requires some logic in place for the PSU to even run.
> >
> > cheers
> >
>
>
> You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke soon after you
> connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on. It doesn't
> actually do any damage and the PSU will continue to work (assuming it is
> just the filter capacitor). Check it, it is likely cracked and will soon
> go.
> If I remember correctly there are actually two of three of these (marked
> "RIFA"), it is probably a good idea just to replace them before they go.
> Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually for any obviously
> failed electrolytics. If  you have one of the DEC load boards you could
> connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think there is much in the
> way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU.
>
> Once you have the machine up and running the easiest thing to do is to boot
> it over the DEQNA by setting up a cluster on SIMH and making your MicroVAX
> II a satellite. I am not sure if 4MB is enough to do that though. Go with a
> 5.x version of VMS as I believe later versions may not support the DEQNA.
>

The DEQNA is obsolete (even by Q-bus standards), troublesome
<http://antinode.info/dec/deqna_settings.html#Troubles>, and not supported
by VMS <http://antinode.info/dec/deqna_settings.html#VMS_Support> since
about V5.4. A compatible card, the DELQA
<http://antinode.info/dec/delqa_settings.html>, replaces the DEQNA.

I was going to say VMS 4 is a better bet since 5 removed support, but looks
like 5.4 is the last version with support. Though the MicroVAX is UP, so
you might be better off with VMS 4 instead of VMS 5.

Warner

RE: Microvax II 'primer'?

[Rob Jarratt via cctalk]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jules
> Richardson via cctalk
> Sent: 21 January 2018 19:26
> To: xx Classiccmp mailing list <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Microvax II 'primer'?
> 
> 
> So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I hurt) a
Microvax
> II from another list member yesterday. Cosmetically it's a disaster (BA123
has a
> cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing front door, missing right-rear
panel)
> but internally it appears to be complete; board wise we have:
> 
>M7606 - CPU
>M7608 - 4MB ram
>M9047 - grant continuity
>M7504 - DEQNA ethernet
>M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial
>M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller
>M7546 - TX50 controller
> 
> ... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity).
> 
> Operational status is a complete unknown, and I have absolutely zero
> knowledge about these systems - so my question at this stage is what
> background reading I need to be doing in terms of pre-powerup* checks,
> actually hooking a console, if there's a suggested minimal config I can
use to
> diag the CPU, and then (assuming it gets to that point) how to actually
use the
> thing (I'm assuming it was running VMS rather than Ultrix, but I don't
know for
> sure). I'm wondering there aren't any handy tutorials out there, alongside
> whatever DEC docs are recommended.
> 
> * e.g. for most machines I'd be thinking in terms of pulling all
boards/drives,
> hooking up a dummy load to whatever PSU rails required it, and then at
least
> running the PSU up in isolation first, but I don't know to what extent
this
> machine requires some logic in place for the PSU to even run.
> 
> cheers
> 


You might find that the filter capacitor goes up in smoke soon after you
connect the PSU to the mains, even without powering it on. It doesn't
actually do any damage and the PSU will continue to work (assuming it is
just the filter capacitor). Check it, it is likely cracked and will soon go.
If I remember correctly there are actually two of three of these (marked
"RIFA"), it is probably a good idea just to replace them before they go.
Otherwise it is certainly wise to check the PSU visually for any obviously
failed electrolytics. If  you have one of the DEC load boards you could
connect the PSU to that as a dummy load. I don't think there is much in the
way of dependency on the CPU to run the PSU.

Once you have the machine up and running the easiest thing to do is to boot
it over the DEQNA by setting up a cluster on SIMH and making your MicroVAX
II a satellite. I am not sure if 4MB is enough to do that though. Go with a
5.x version of VMS as I believe later versions may not support the DEQNA.

Regards

Rob

Re: Microvax II 'primer'?

[Glen Slick via cctalk]

On Sun, Jan 21, 2018 at 11:25 AM, Jules Richardson via cctalk
<cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
> So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I hurt) a
> Microvax II from another list member yesterday. Cosmetically it's a disaster
> (BA123 has a cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing front door, missing
> right-rear panel) but internally it appears to be complete; board wise we
> have:
>
>   M7606 - CPU
>   M7608 - 4MB ram
>   M9047 - grant continuity
>   M7504 - DEQNA ethernet
>   M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial
>   M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller
>   M7546 - TX50 controller
>
> ... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity).
>

First thing I would do myself is remove the NiCad battery pack from
the back of the console connector bulkhead panel and inspect the
console panel PCB for any signs of corrosion. In my experience those
old NiCad battery packs can leak and start to destroy anything near
them.

Note that the DB9 connector on the MicroVAX KA630 / 650 / 655 console
bulkhead panel is not the same as the usual PC standard.  For DEC
original cables you need a BCC08, or if you're doing MMJ cables an
H8571-B or an H8575-B MMJ adapter. Of course you can always build your
own cable.

Table 14-7 MicroVAX DB9 Pin-out
http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/faq/vmsfaq_025.html#tbl_uvdb9

Table 14-8 DECconnect MMJ Connectors and Adapters
http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/faq/vmsfaq_025.html#wires2

http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/vax/630/
MP02071_630QB_Mar85.pdf  --  Maintenance Print Set
Page 85 of the PDF, Function Selection & SLU Module (FS) for M7608 (KA630)

AZ-GM3AA-MN_uVAXII_Maint_Oct85.pdf  --  MicroVAX Maintenance Guide
Page 23 of the PDF, page 1-15, FIGURE 1-10 Backplane Grant Continuity
If this is your first time with a BA123 it is important to note that
the right most slots 1 through 4 are Q22/CD slots. Don't put any dual
wide cards in the lower CD half of slots 1 through 4. The CPU should
always be in slot 1 and the first memory card in slot 2. If you have a
second memory card it would go in slot 3. If slot 3 or slot 4 would
otherwise be empty you need an M9047 grant continuity only in the top
AB half of the slots. If any AB or CD half of slots 5 through 12 would
otherwise be empty you need an M9047 grant continuity in each half
between the CPU and the last slot that is in use.

The M7606 KA630 CPU contains 1MB. Together with the M7608 4MB memory
board you then have 5MB total. I've never tried running a system with
that little memory. If you're actually going to do anything with the
system you might look for a cheap M7609 8MB memory board to use
instead for 9MB, or use both for 13MB if you have a 3-way memory bus
cable.

If it was me I might look for a cheap M7620 KA650 or M7625 KA655 CPU
and 1 to 3 M7622 16MB memory boards. Those CPUs can use up to 64MB but
you are limited to 3 memory boards in a BA123 because there are only 4
Q22/CD slots. I maxed out my own BA123 with an M7625 KA655 CPU and 2
Dataram 32MB memory boards to get to 64MB.

-Glen

Re: Microvax II 'primer'?

[Jon Elson via cctalk]

On 01/21/2018 01:25 PM, Jules Richardson via cctalk wrote:


So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, 
and now I hurt) a Microvax II from another list member 
yesterday. Cosmetically it's a disaster (BA123 has a 
cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing front door, 
missing right-rear panel) but internally it appears to be 
complete; board wise we have:


  M7606 - CPU
  M7608 - 4MB ram
  M9047 - grant continuity
  M7504 - DEQNA ethernet
  M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial
  M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller
  M7546 - TX50 controller

... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity).

Operational status is a complete unknown, and I have 
absolutely zero knowledge about these systems - so my 
question at this stage is what background reading I need 
to be doing in terms of pre-powerup* checks, actually 
hooking a console, if there's a suggested minimal config I 
can use to diag the CPU, and then (assuming it gets to 
that point) how to actually use the thing (I'm assuming it 
was running VMS rather than Ultrix, but I don't know for 
sure). I'm wondering there aren't any handy tutorials out 
there, alongside whatever DEC docs are recommended.


* e.g. for most machines I'd be thinking in terms of 
pulling all boards/drives, hooking up a dummy load to 
whatever PSU rails required it, and then at least running 
the PSU up in isolation first, but I don't know to what 
extent this machine requires some logic in place for the 
PSU to even run.


Well, you need to hook up a serial terminal, set the baud 
rate, and see if it gives the power-on self diagnostic sequence.
The TK50 is likely not going to work due to deteriorated 
rubber rollers and such.  Does it have a disk drive?
If not, it won't do much.  If it does, it is a bit iffy if 
the drive will spin up and unlock heads.  I have a similar 
setup here, but my SCSI disk drive died.  The CPU still 
fires up just fine - amazing for a machine I ran for 21 years.


Jon

Microvax II 'primer'?

[Jules Richardson via cctalk]

So, I picked up (and I did just carry it into the house, and now I hurt) a 
Microvax II from another list member yesterday. Cosmetically it's a 
disaster (BA123 has a cracked top panel, broken wheels, missing front door, 
missing right-rear panel) but internally it appears to be complete; board 
wise we have:


  M7606 - CPU
  M7608 - 4MB ram
  M9047 - grant continuity
  M7504 - DEQNA ethernet
  M3104 - DHV11 8-port serial
  M7555 - RQDX3 disk controller
  M7546 - TX50 controller

... it's got a TK50 and hard drive (no idea of capacity).

Operational status is a complete unknown, and I have absolutely zero 
knowledge about these systems - so my question at this stage is what 
background reading I need to be doing in terms of pre-powerup* checks, 
actually hooking a console, if there's a suggested minimal config I can use 
to diag the CPU, and then (assuming it gets to that point) how to actually 
use the thing (I'm assuming it was running VMS rather than Ultrix, but I 
don't know for sure). I'm wondering there aren't any handy tutorials out 
there, alongside whatever DEC docs are recommended.


* e.g. for most machines I'd be thinking in terms of pulling all 
boards/drives, hooking up a dummy load to whatever PSU rails required it, 
and then at least running the PSU up in isolation first, but I don't know 
to what extent this machine requires some logic in place for the PSU to 
even run.


cheers

Jules

RE: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters

[Rob Jarratt]

> 
> Unfortunately I spoke too soon. When I tested it again a bit more
> extensively, it suddenly stopped working. I am going to have to solder in
> some wires to pins 2 and 3 and see if that helps.
> 


Removing and then resoldering J3 (the smaller of the two ribbon cable 
connectors) seems to have fixed it this time. It is managing to continue to 
operate for rather longer than before. Fingers crossed I have resolved it this 
time. I will test it for longer tomorrow.

Regards

Rob

RE: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters

[Rob Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Ethan
> Dicks
> Sent: 25 August 2016 18:12
> To: r...@jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters
> 
> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
> > Just a bit more info on this.
> >
> > I tried cleaning up the corrosion, and that briefly seemed to make a
> > difference, but then I realised the problem persisted. I looked again
> > and realised that the corrosion around the DE-9 pins was a bit bad.
> > Initially I thought to solder some jumper wires around pins 2 and 3,
> > but when the solder would not melt very easily, I found that it kind
> > of flaked off under a bit of heat and physical pressure. This made me
> > think that although I was getting continuity with my DMM, the joint
> > was not that good. So I desoldered the whole DE-9 connector, cleaned
> > the board with PCB cleaner and then resoldered it back.
> >
> > This seems to have fixed it.
> 
> My own cab kit was also exhibiting gray solder that did not flow, so without
> even testing it, I presumed it was faulty and I removed the
> DE-9 and cleaned the PCB.  That's as far as I've gotten this week.  I still 
> plan to
> test the resistance of the traces because, sometimes, those are consumed or
> heavily damaged (I've been reading a lot of Amiga Varta repair threads lately
> - that's another platform I'm cleaning damage on).  The question I have for
> the MicroVAX is if I trust the integrity of the DE-9 itself.  I can solder in 
> a fresh
> replacement, but I _think_ the old one is probably still good.
> 

Unfortunately I spoke too soon. When I tested it again a bit more extensively, 
it suddenly stopped working. I am going to have to solder in some wires to pins 
2 and 3 and see if that helps.

Regards

Rob

Re: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters

[Ethan Dicks]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 1:05 PM, Rob Jarratt
 wrote:
> Just a bit more info on this.
>
> I tried cleaning up the corrosion, and that briefly seemed to make a
> difference, but then I realised the problem persisted. I looked again and
> realised that the corrosion around the DE-9 pins was a bit bad. Initially I
> thought to solder some jumper wires around pins 2 and 3, but when the solder
> would not melt very easily, I found that it kind of flaked off under a bit
> of heat and physical pressure. This made me think that although I was
> getting continuity with my DMM, the joint was not that good. So I desoldered
> the whole DE-9 connector, cleaned the board with PCB cleaner and then
> resoldered it back.
>
> This seems to have fixed it.

My own cab kit was also exhibiting gray solder that did not flow, so
without even testing it, I presumed it was faulty and I removed the
DE-9 and cleaned the PCB.  That's as far as I've gotten this week.  I
still plan to test the resistance of the traces because, sometimes,
those are consumed or heavily damaged (I've been reading a lot of
Amiga Varta repair threads lately - that's another platform I'm
cleaning damage on).  The question I have for the MicroVAX is if I
trust the integrity of the DE-9 itself.  I can solder in a fresh
replacement, but I _think_ the old one is probably still good.

-ethan

RE: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters

[Rob Jarratt]

 
> It turns out the problem was the cab kit. I replaced it with a spare and
the
> machine worked great. On closer inspection I found some corrosion and
> possible evidence of a previous battery leak, so I am going to take it
apart,
> check it and clean it up.
> 
> The other thing that made me suspect the cab kit is that the act of
pulling the
> serial cable out (not unplugging the terminal) would cause the machine to
> reset. MicroVAX II does this if you switch off the console terminal while
the
> terminal is connected.
> 


Just a bit more info on this.

I tried cleaning up the corrosion, and that briefly seemed to make a
difference, but then I realised the problem persisted. I looked again and
realised that the corrosion around the DE-9 pins was a bit bad. Initially I
thought to solder some jumper wires around pins 2 and 3, but when the solder
would not melt very easily, I found that it kind of flaked off under a bit
of heat and physical pressure. This made me think that although I was
getting continuity with my DMM, the joint was not that good. So I desoldered
the whole DE-9 connector, cleaned the board with PCB cleaner and then
resoldered it back.

This seems to have fixed it.

Regards

Rob

Re: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters

[Ethan Dicks]

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 4:08 AM, Rob Jarratt
<robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> It turns out the problem was the cab kit. I replaced it with a spare and the
> machine worked great. On closer inspection I found some corrosion and
> possible evidence of a previous battery leak, so I am going to take it
> apart, check it and clean it up.

Ah.  Good to hear.  I'm in the middle of cleaning up battery damage on
a cab kit myself.  I have it apart and the obvious corrosion
neutralized and cleaned, but I need to go over the traces where the
damage is before I replace the DE9.  It's been a month of cleaning and
inspecting and repair (last night's project was a PDP-11/04)

> The other thing that made me suspect the cab kit is that the act of pulling
> the serial cable out (not unplugging the terminal) would cause the machine
> to reset. MicroVAX II does this if you switch off the console terminal while
> the terminal is connected.

Hmm... that is a peculiar symptom.  Glad it led to a solution.

Cheers,

-ethan

RE: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters

[Rob Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: Paul Koning [mailto:paulkon...@comcast.net]
> Sent: 24 August 2016 17:59
> To: r...@jarratt.me.uk; General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters
> 
> 
> > On Aug 24, 2016, at 12:21 PM, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com>
> wrote:
> >
> >> Incidentally, the terminal and the machine *were* plugged into
> >> different sockets, but now they are connected to the same wall socket
> >> and the problem persists.
> >>
> >
> >
> > Actually, since connecting terminal and machine to the same wall
> > socket, the garbling seems to have much reduced, but I do get lots of
> > dropped characters all the same.
> 
> Check that the shield ground and signal ground are both connected.   If
they
> are, then the fact that it depends on power suggests your RS232 interface
is
> inadequately designed.
> 

It turns out the problem was the cab kit. I replaced it with a spare and the
machine worked great. On closer inspection I found some corrosion and
possible evidence of a previous battery leak, so I am going to take it
apart, check it and clean it up.

The other thing that made me suspect the cab kit is that the act of pulling
the serial cable out (not unplugging the terminal) would cause the machine
to reset. MicroVAX II does this if you switch off the console terminal while
the terminal is connected.

Thanks

Rob

Re: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters

[Jon Elson]

On 08/24/2016 11:05 AM, Rob Jarratt wrote:
Well, it does "lose" characters. It seems to be that after 
a short burst of characters it just gives up and I don't 
see anymore characters for a while, then it will show a 
few more after a bit of a pause (but not always).
Hmmm, that sounds like possibly a buffer overflow in the 
terminal. Some terminals had really slow micros running 
them, and needed to stop transmission from the host for a 
while.  If the host is not obeying the stop-sending command 
(could be the terminal is using the CTS line that is not 
wired to the VAX, or the VAX is not set to obey Xoff/Xon 
characters) then this would happen.


Jon

Re: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 24, 2016, at 12:21 PM, Rob Jarratt  wrote:
> 
>> Incidentally, the terminal and the machine *were* plugged into different
>> sockets, but now they are connected to the same wall socket and the
>> problem persists.
>> 
> 
> 
> Actually, since connecting terminal and machine to the same wall socket, the
> garbling seems to have much reduced, but I do get lots of dropped characters
> all the same.

Check that the shield ground and signal ground are both connected.   If they 
are, then the fact that it depends on power suggests your RS232 interface is 
inadequately designed.

paul

RE: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters

[Rob Jarratt]

> Incidentally, the terminal and the machine *were* plugged into different
> sockets, but now they are connected to the same wall socket and the
> problem persists.
> 


Actually, since connecting terminal and machine to the same wall socket, the
garbling seems to have much reduced, but I do get lots of dropped characters
all the same.

For example the prompt to enter date and time appeared without the final
colon. I then pressed CTRL-R to repeat it and it just typed "PLEASE", with
no further characters, but it then echoed the date and time as I entered it.
Like I said, it seems to be able to send a certain number of characters and
then loses the rest.

I saw the cab kit comment, and I also  wonder about that too. I am pretty
sure the terminal is OK though, because it seems to work OK on other
machines and I had exactly the same problems when using a DECserver 90M and
Putty (so no terminal at all). I can try swapping some parts around to see
if or when the problem goes away.

I suppose I was just hoping someone might have seen similar problems, but I
can do some deeper analysis to narrow it down more.

Regards

Rob

RE: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters

[Rob Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Mouse
> Sent: 24 August 2016 16:35
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Re: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters
> 
> >> I have a MicroVAX II which has started garbling and losing characters
> >> output to the console.  [...]
> > Iâ??ve seen similar  with under two occasions.  [...]
> 
> Furthermore, "garbling" is horribly imprecise.

Fair enough, let me see if I can answer more precisely.

> 
> If certain characters always get corrupted, and a given character always
gets
> corrupted to the same thing?

No, the corruption appears to be random. Unfortunately I don't have a
protocol analyser to help, but I could try to get a log using Putty
connecting via a DECserver 90M. I will try that later.

> 
> If it's always the same characters getting corrupted, but they get
corrupted
> to different things on different occasions?
> 
> If there's no uniformity on which characters get corrupted, but a given
> character, if corrupted, always gets corrupted to the same thing?
> 
> If both which characters get corrupted and what they get converted into
> show no consistency?

Regarding all the above, it looks pretty random to me, but I will try to get
a dump of the characters and compare with what they should be.

> 
> Each of those scenarios points towards a different constellation of
plausible
> causes.  (Furthermore "same characters" can be taken either of two ways,
> either "characters with the same bit pattern, regardless of where they
occur"
> or "characters at the same place in the output, regardless of bit
pattern".  It
> could even be a cross between those.)
> 
> Similar remarks apply to "losing".


Well, it does "lose" characters. It seems to be that after a short burst of
characters it just gives up and I don't see anymore characters for a while,
then it will show a few more after a bit of a pause (but not always).


> 
> The post also said
> 
> >> It had seemed that re-seating the processor board would fix it, but
> >> that no longer seems to be the case.
> 
> It occurs to me that it might not have been the re-seating that was
> responsible, but something else incidental to that.  For example, if the
> problem is thermal, powering it off briefly might have helped; if (to
continue
> that theory) if the environment has been getting hotter, it may be that
> leaving it off briefly now doesn't cool it enough.


Unfortunately this happens both with the machine cold and warm.

> 
> Without more details, we can't really do much but take stabs in the dark.

I will try to get more info.

Incidentally, the terminal and the machine *were* plugged into different
sockets, but now they are connected to the same wall socket and the problem
persists.

Regard

Rob

> 
> /~\ The ASCII   Mouse
> \ / Ribbon Campaign
>  X  Against HTML  mo...@rodents-montreal.org
> / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters

[Jon Elson]

On 08/24/2016 10:34 AM, Mouse wrote:

I have a MicroVAX II which has started garbling and losing
characters output to the console.  [...]

Iâ??ve seen similar  with under two occasions.  [...]

Furthermore, "garbling" is horribly imprecise.
And, of course, you should make sure it is not the terminal, 
cabinet kit or cable that has gone bad, instead of the CPU 
board.  (I can see where a bad cabinet kit or internal cable 
could cause the serial clock to change speed, that would 
cause the same result.)


Jon

Re: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters

[Jon Elson]

On 08/24/2016 09:53 AM, Jerry Weiss wrote:

On Aug 24, 2016, at 9:41 AM, Rob Jarratt <robert.jarr...@ntlworld.com> wrote:

I have a MicroVAX II which has started garbling and losing characters output
to the console. It had seemed that re-seating the processor board would fix
it, but that no longer seems to be the case.



I was just wondering if anyone else has ever come across this failure mode?



I’ve seen similar  with under two occasions.

1) Non-compliant USB adaptor - Doesn’t fully support RS232C levels
2) Poor grounding, noise in the data lines - long cable runs or devices on 
different sides of the (US) power main.

I have not dealt with component problems on the KA630 itself.

The console interface is a set of 9636, 9643 and 9639 chips 
(8-pin DIP).  I had mine blown out about 1988 or so when a 
power supply failed.  There are a couple capacitors and 
resistors related to that circuitry, too.


Jon

Re: MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters

[Mouse]

>> I have a MicroVAX II which has started garbling and losing
>> characters output to the console.  [...]
> Iâ??ve seen similar  with under two occasions.  [...]

Furthermore, "garbling" is horribly imprecise.

If certain characters always get corrupted, and a given character
always gets corrupted to the same thing?

If it's always the same characters getting corrupted, but they get
corrupted to different things on different occasions?

If there's no uniformity on which characters get corrupted, but a given
character, if corrupted, always gets corrupted to the same thing?

If both which characters get corrupted and what they get converted into
show no consistency?

Each of those scenarios points towards a different constellation of
plausible causes.  (Furthermore "same characters" can be taken either
of two ways, either "characters with the same bit pattern, regardless
of where they occur" or "characters at the same place in the output,
regardless of bit pattern".  It could even be a cross between those.)

Similar remarks apply to "losing".

The post also said

>> It had seemed that re-seating the processor board would fix it, but
>> that no longer seems to be the case.

It occurs to me that it might not have been the re-seating that was
responsible, but something else incidental to that.  For example, if
the problem is thermal, powering it off briefly might have helped; if
(to continue that theory) if the environment has been getting hotter,
it may be that leaving it off briefly now doesn't cool it enough.

Without more details, we can't really do much but take stabs in the
dark.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

MicroVAX II Console Garbling Characters

[Rob Jarratt]

I have a MicroVAX II which has started garbling and losing characters output
to the console. It had seemed that re-seating the processor board would fix
it, but that no longer seems to be the case.

 

I was just wondering if anyone else has ever come across this failure mode?

 

Regards

 

Rob

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Douglas Taylor]

On 8/20/2016 10:35 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:

On Aug 20, 2016, at 10:27 AM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:
When I started this I hadn't put the RQDX2 back in, so I had only one UDA 
controller and that's how I saw the DHV11 show up.  When I put the RQDX2 back 
in that's when I lost the DHV11.

I did the configure from VMS 5.5, it was a lot less verbose than what you 
showed.

At this point I am wondering why I am fussing over such useless interchange medium as the 
RX50 diskettes and the TK50 tape cassettes.  Of course to the hobbyist the answer is 
"Because they are there!" and you better get them working.  I would be better 
off with a DELQA, BTW will the cabinet kit from a DEQNA work with the DELQA?


Yes, I’ve used a cabinet kit from a DEQNA on a DELQA using 11/73’s.

In the Microsystem Options http://vaxhaven.com/images/1/16/EK-192AA-MG-001.pdf 
  it appears the cable set 
is the same for both.

Jerry



I found a cabinet kit that appears to be for the BA123 and on the plate 
with the AUI connector it is labeled 'DEQNA'.  I became suspicious that 
DEC would sell the same hardware, but with the label 'DELQA', and charge 
you more, of course.  I think that I got this one because when a DEQNA 
was upgraded to a DELQA that cabinet kit was 'upgraded' also.  Ha.


Doug

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Jerry Weiss]

> On Aug 20, 2016, at 10:27 AM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:
>> 
> 
> When I started this I hadn't put the RQDX2 back in, so I had only one UDA 
> controller and that's how I saw the DHV11 show up.  When I put the RQDX2 back 
> in that's when I lost the DHV11.
> 
> I did the configure from VMS 5.5, it was a lot less verbose than what you 
> showed.
> 
> At this point I am wondering why I am fussing over such useless interchange 
> medium as the RX50 diskettes and the TK50 tape cassettes.  Of course to the 
> hobbyist the answer is "Because they are there!" and you better get them 
> working.  I would be better off with a DELQA, BTW will the cabinet kit from a 
> DEQNA work with the DELQA?
> 

Yes, I’ve used a cabinet kit from a DEQNA on a DELQA using 11/73’s.

In the Microsystem Options http://vaxhaven.com/images/1/16/EK-192AA-MG-001.pdf 
  it appears the cable set 
is the same for both.

Jerry

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Douglas Taylor]

On 8/19/2016 6:49 PM, Glen Slick wrote:


Device,Number? dhv11,1
Device,Number? tqk50,1
Device,Number? rqdx3,1
Device,Number? exit

Address/Vector Assignments
-772150/154 RQDX3
-774500/260 TQK50
-760440/300 DHV11


configure

Enter device configuration, HELP, or EXIT
Device,Number? dhv11,1
Device,Number? tqk50,1
Device,Number? rqdx3,2
Device,Number? exit

Address/Vector Assignments
-772150/154 RQDX3
-760334/300 RQDX3
-774500/260 TQK50
-760500/310 DHV11


When I started this I hadn't put the RQDX2 back in, so I had only one 
UDA controller and that's how I saw the DHV11 show up.  When I put the 
RQDX2 back in that's when I lost the DHV11.


I did the configure from VMS 5.5, it was a lot less verbose than what 
you showed.


At this point I am wondering why I am fussing over such useless 
interchange medium as the RX50 diskettes and the TK50 tape cassettes.  
Of course to the hobbyist the answer is "Because they are there!" and 
you better get them working.  I would be better off with a DELQA, BTW 
will the cabinet kit from a DEQNA work with the DELQA?


Doug

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Glen Slick]

On Fri, Aug 19, 2016 at 8:58 AM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:
>
> It is the World Box, BA123 and I have hardware manuals that came with the
> MVII.
> When I got it this was the configuration:
> Slot 1 - CPU
> Slot 2 - Memory
> Slot 3 - Bus Grant Card M9047
> Slot 4 - DHV11
> Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) M9047 (lower)
> Slot 6 - RQDX2
>
> The new configuration is:
>
> Slot 1 - CPU
> Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
> Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
> Slot 4 - DHV11
> Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
> Slot 6 - RQDX2
>
> I even tried moving the cards:
>
> Slot 1 - CPU
> Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
> Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
> Slot 4 - Bus Grant M9047
> Slot 5 - DHV11
> Slot 6 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
> Slot 7 - RQDX2
>
> In the last two configurations VMS sees the disk/floppy controller just fine
> but not the tape or serial ports.
> Today I will pull the DHV11 and put it in the MV4000 and see if it shows up
> just to check if the board is OK.
> If there is none, or a faulty, TK50 drive attached the controller does VMS
> react to this?
> Doug

Here is one example of how the expected floating CSR address and
vector for a DHV11 will shift depending on whether a system contains 2
MSCP controllers instead of 1:

C:\simh-4.0-Beta--2015-10-16-5c117caa>MicroVAX3900.exe

MicroVAX 3900 simulator V4.0-0 Betagit commit id: 5c117caa
sim> boot cpu
Loading boot code from internal ka655x.bin

KA655-B V5.3, VMB 2.7
Performing normal system tests.
40..39..38..37..36..35..34..33..32..31..30..29..28..27..26..25..
24..23..22..21..20..19..18..17..16..15..14..13..12..11..10..09..
08..07..06..05..04..03..
Tests completed.
>>>configure
Enter device configuration, HELP, or EXIT
Device,Number? help
Devices:
 LPV11KXJ11DLV11J   DZQ11DZV11DFA01
 RLV12TSV05RXV21DRV11W   DRV11B   DPV11
 DMV11DELQADEQNADESQARQDX3KDA50
 RRD50RQC25KFQSA-DISK   TQK50TQK70TU81E
 RV20 KFQSA-TAPE   KMV11IEQ11DHQ11DHV11
 CXA16CXB16CXY08VCB01QVSS LNV11
 LNV21QPSS DSV11ADV11C   AAV11C   AXV11C
 KWV11C   ADV11D   AAV11D   VCB02QDSS DRV11J
 DRQ3BVSV21IBQ01IDV11A   IDV11B   IDV11C
 IDV11D   IAV11A   IAV11B   MIRA ADQ32DTC04
 DESNAIGQ11
Numbers:
 1 to 255, default is 1
Device,Number? dhv11,1
Device,Number? tqk50,1
Device,Number? rqdx3,1
Device,Number? exit

Address/Vector Assignments
-772150/154 RQDX3
-774500/260 TQK50
-760440/300 DHV11

>>>configure
Enter device configuration, HELP, or EXIT
Device,Number? dhv11,1
Device,Number? tqk50,1
Device,Number? rqdx3,2
Device,Number? exit

Address/Vector Assignments
-772150/154 RQDX3
-760334/300 RQDX3
-774500/260 TQK50
-760500/310 DHV11

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Jon Elson]

On 08/19/2016 12:36 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote:


The MicroVax II is about 30 years old, should I suspect 
the backplane?  How do you clean it?  Should I try another 
CPU card?


My cobbled-together uVAX-II ran continuously from 1986 to 
2007. Sometime in the late 1990s, it started to get flaky.  
It was always backplane-related, devices would become 
inaccessible, and powering down and reseating the boards 
always brought it back.  Every few years, I would pull all 
the boards and vacuum the board side of the backplanes and 
wipe down the board edge fingers with an alcohol-soaked 
paper towel.  The reseating would always clear the trouble 
for several months.


Jon

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Douglas Taylor]

On 8/19/2016 4:55 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote:


Yes, it is an MSCP disk controller, and it seems to work OK.  I boot 
from it and the CSR is at the standard 1st address, it is connected 
to a SCSI2SD board.


I think you have a good point about CSR addresses.  There is a 
CONFIGURE tool that tells you what set the addresses to for a 
particular collection of options, I need to run that and then check 
that all the devices are set to the proper addresses.


I suspect that I don't see MUA0 show up because the tape drive is 
not working properly.
To make matters confusing, there's an aspect of floating CSRs I did 
not mention before.  Some devices -- MSCP disk is one, TMSCP tape 
also I think -- have floating CSRS for the second and subsequent 
units, but the first is fixed.  Others, like the DHV11, are all 
floating (including the first unit).


paul


These comments have been very helpful, it has be over 10 years since I 
did these things with VAXes.  It is starting to come back, little by 
little.  Re-visiting the VAX is turning out to be fun, it is somewhat 
like a treasure hunt.


When I run CONFIGURE I will post what the CSR's should be and what I 
had them set to.


Doug


Here are the results:

Before - the CSR, VEC were set as follows

VIKING MSCP Disk controller : CSR 772150 VEC 154
RQDX2 MSCP Disk controller : CSR 760334 VEC 300
DHV11 Serial Mux :   CSR 760460 VEC 300
TQK50 TMSCP controller :CSR 774500 VEC 260

After -

 $ run sys$system:sysgen

SYSGEN>  CONFIG
DEVICE> uda,2
DEVICE> tu81
DEVICE> dhv11
DEVICE>^Z

Device: UDA Name: PUA   CSR: 772150   Vector: 154 Support: yes
Device: TU81 Name: PTA   CSR: 774500   Vector: 260 
Support: yes

Device: UDA Name: PUB   CSR: 760334*  Vector: 300* Support: yes
Device: DHV11 Name: TXA   CSR: 760500*  Vector: 310* 
Support: yes


SYSGEN>  EXIT

After changing the CSR and VEC of the DHV11 and rebooting :

$ show edev

Device  Device   ErrorVolume Free  Trans Mnt

 Name   Status   Count Label Blocks Count Cnt

DUA0:   Online   0
DUA1:   Mounted  0  VAXVMSV055 1954644   126   1

DUB0:   Online   0
DUB1:   Online   0

Device  Device   Error
 Name   Status   Count
FTA0:   Offline  0
OPA0:   Online   0
TXA0:   Online   0
TXA1:   Online   0
TXA2:   Online   0
TXA3:   Online   0
TXA4:   Online   0
TXA5:   Online   0
TXA6:   Online   0
TXA7:   Online   0

Device  Device   Error
 Name   Status   Count
PTA0:   Online   1
PUA0:   Online   1
PUB0:   Online   1
WSA0:   Offline  0

 $
The TK50 still does not show up, I think it is because the tape drive is 
not functioning (can't move the lever to allow a tape to be loaded).
However, I do have functional RX50 floppys, just need some media.  I 
have a couple spare TK50's and will try those to see what happens.


Doug

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Douglas Taylor]

On 8/19/2016 12:19 PM, Paul Koning wrote:

On Aug 19, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:


...

It is the World Box, BA123 and I have hardware manuals that came with the MVII.
When I got it this was the configuration:
Slot 1 - CPU
Slot 2 - Memory
Slot 3 - Bus Grant Card M9047
Slot 4 - DHV11
Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) M9047 (lower)
Slot 6 - RQDX2

The new configuration is:

Slot 1 - CPU
Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
Slot 4 - DHV11
Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
Slot 6 - RQDX2

I even tried moving the cards:

Slot 1 - CPU
Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
Slot 4 - Bus Grant M9047
Slot 5 - DHV11
Slot 6 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
Slot 7 - RQDX2

In the last two configurations VMS sees the disk/floppy controller just fine 
but not the tape or serial ports.
Today I will pull the DHV11 and put it in the MV4000 and see if it shows up 
just to check if the board is OK.
If there is none, or a faulty, TK50 drive attached the controller does VMS 
react to this?

So you added a "Viking", if I see right.  What sort of device is that?

If it's an MSCP controller, it would go into the UDA50 floating CSR position.  
DHV11 and TMSCP rank later than UDA50 in the floating CSR order, so if you 
added a MSCP controller without adjusting the CSR address switches of those two 
cards, they would not be correctly recognized as I discussed in my earlier mail 
today.  The order of the cards in the chassis does not affect that; device 
identification in Unibus and Qbus has no connection to physical card position.

paul


Yes, it is an MSCP disk controller, and it seems to work OK.  I boot 
from it and the CSR is at the standard 1st address, it is connected to a 
SCSI2SD board.


I think you have a good point about CSR addresses.  There is a CONFIGURE 
tool that tells you what set the addresses to for a particular 
collection of options, I need to run that and then check that all the 
devices are set to the proper addresses.


I suspect that I don't see MUA0 show up because the tape drive is not 
working properly.


Doug

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Douglas Taylor]

Yes, it is an MSCP disk controller, and it seems to work OK.  I boot from it 
and the CSR is at the standard 1st address, it is connected to a SCSI2SD board.

I think you have a good point about CSR addresses.  There is a CONFIGURE tool 
that tells you what set the addresses to for a particular collection of 
options, I need to run that and then check that all the devices are set to the 
proper addresses.

I suspect that I don't see MUA0 show up because the tape drive is not working 
properly.

To make matters confusing, there's an aspect of floating CSRs I did not mention 
before.  Some devices -- MSCP disk is one, TMSCP tape also I think -- have 
floating CSRS for the second and subsequent units, but the first is fixed.  
Others, like the DHV11, are all floating (including the first unit).

paul


These comments have been very helpful, it has be over 10 years since I 
did these things with VAXes.  It is starting to come back, little by 
little.  Re-visiting the VAX is turning out to be fun, it is somewhat 
like a treasure hunt.


When I run CONFIGURE I will post what the CSR's should be and what I had 
them set to.


Doug

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 19, 2016, at 2:55 PM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:
> 
> On 8/19/2016 12:19 PM, Paul Koning wrote:
>>> On Aug 19, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:
>>> 
 ...
>>> It is the World Box, BA123 and I have hardware manuals that came with the 
>>> MVII.
>>> When I got it this was the configuration:
>>> Slot 1 - CPU
>>> Slot 2 - Memory
>>> Slot 3 - Bus Grant Card M9047
>>> Slot 4 - DHV11
>>> Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) M9047 (lower)
>>> Slot 6 - RQDX2
>>> 
>>> The new configuration is:
>>> 
>>> Slot 1 - CPU
>>> Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
>>> Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
>>> Slot 4 - DHV11
>>> Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
>>> Slot 6 - RQDX2
>>> 
>>> I even tried moving the cards:
>>> 
>>> Slot 1 - CPU
>>> Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
>>> Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
>>> Slot 4 - Bus Grant M9047
>>> Slot 5 - DHV11
>>> Slot 6 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
>>> Slot 7 - RQDX2
>>> 
>>> In the last two configurations VMS sees the disk/floppy controller just 
>>> fine but not the tape or serial ports.
>>> Today I will pull the DHV11 and put it in the MV4000 and see if it shows up 
>>> just to check if the board is OK.
>>> If there is none, or a faulty, TK50 drive attached the controller does VMS 
>>> react to this?
>> So you added a "Viking", if I see right.  What sort of device is that?
>> 
>> If it's an MSCP controller, it would go into the UDA50 floating CSR 
>> position.  DHV11 and TMSCP rank later than UDA50 in the floating CSR order, 
>> so if you added a MSCP controller without adjusting the CSR address switches 
>> of those two cards, they would not be correctly recognized as I discussed in 
>> my earlier mail today.  The order of the cards in the chassis does not 
>> affect that; device identification in Unibus and Qbus has no connection to 
>> physical card position.
>> 
>>  paul
>> 
>> 
> Yes, it is an MSCP disk controller, and it seems to work OK.  I boot from it 
> and the CSR is at the standard 1st address, it is connected to a SCSI2SD 
> board.
> 
> I think you have a good point about CSR addresses.  There is a CONFIGURE tool 
> that tells you what set the addresses to for a particular collection of 
> options, I need to run that and then check that all the devices are set to 
> the proper addresses.
> 
> I suspect that I don't see MUA0 show up because the tape drive is not working 
> properly.

To make matters confusing, there's an aspect of floating CSRs I did not mention 
before.  Some devices -- MSCP disk is one, TMSCP tape also I think -- have 
floating CSRS for the second and subsequent units, but the first is fixed.  
Others, like the DHV11, are all floating (including the first unit).

paul

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Douglas Taylor]

On 8/19/2016 6:04 AM, Peter Coghlan wrote:

[snip]



Device  Device   Error
  Name   Status   Count
MPA0:   Offline  0
PTA0:   Online   1
PUA0:   Online   1
PUB0:   Online   1

I swear that when I first installed VMS the DHV11 ports showed up in 
the show dev list on the MicroVax II.
The TQK50 controller (I have 2) were put into a MicroVax 4000 and 
that Vax saw each board, so I don't think the boards are bad.




It's not clear to me what issue you are reporting regarding the TQK50
controllers.  Are you saying that VMS is not seeing them because you 
don't

see any MUA devices listed?

PUA0 and PUB0 are your two disk controllers.  Some googling suggests 
that PTA0
is a tape controller.  (Google also suggests that one error at startup 
is to

be expected for PT/PU devices.)

Having PTA0 listed suggests that VMS is seeing the tape controller but 
not

seeing any actual tape drives attached to the controller.  Maybe the tape
drive or drives are not correctly attached to the controller or are not
powered?

(Don't worry about MPA0 - this is a virtual device expected to be absent
in VMS V5.5-2 and present in VMS V7.2.  It is not related to tape or 
serial

controllers.)

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.


I removed the DHV11 and checked the switch settings and they are all set 
to the factory default.


This DHV11 was put into the MV4000 backpland and VMS 7.2 booted. Show 
Device lists  TXA0: thru TXA7.


The MicroVax II is about 30 years old, should I suspect the backplane?  
How do you clean it?  Should I try another CPU card?


Doug

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Paul Koning]

> On Aug 19, 2016, at 11:58 AM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:
> 
>> ...
> It is the World Box, BA123 and I have hardware manuals that came with the 
> MVII.
> When I got it this was the configuration:
> Slot 1 - CPU
> Slot 2 - Memory
> Slot 3 - Bus Grant Card M9047
> Slot 4 - DHV11
> Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) M9047 (lower)
> Slot 6 - RQDX2
> 
> The new configuration is:
> 
> Slot 1 - CPU
> Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
> Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
> Slot 4 - DHV11
> Slot 5 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
> Slot 6 - RQDX2
> 
> I even tried moving the cards:
> 
> Slot 1 - CPU
> Slot 2 - Memory (Clearpoint)
> Slot 3 - Memory (DEC)
> Slot 4 - Bus Grant M9047
> Slot 5 - DHV11
> Slot 6 - TQK50  (upper) VIKING (lower)
> Slot 7 - RQDX2
> 
> In the last two configurations VMS sees the disk/floppy controller just fine 
> but not the tape or serial ports.
> Today I will pull the DHV11 and put it in the MV4000 and see if it shows up 
> just to check if the board is OK.
> If there is none, or a faulty, TK50 drive attached the controller does VMS 
> react to this?

So you added a "Viking", if I see right.  What sort of device is that?

If it's an MSCP controller, it would go into the UDA50 floating CSR position.  
DHV11 and TMSCP rank later than UDA50 in the floating CSR order, so if you 
added a MSCP controller without adjusting the CSR address switches of those two 
cards, they would not be correctly recognized as I discussed in my earlier mail 
today.  The order of the cards in the chassis does not affect that; device 
identification in Unibus and Qbus has no connection to physical card position.

paul

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Adrian Graham]

On 19/08/2016 09:56, "Peter Coghlan"  wrote:

>>> 
>>> Does Autogen recognize new hardware?
>>> 
>> Yes, definitely.  Some older devices have switches (or even
>> soldered jumpers) to set the CSR address.  If some of these
>> are wrong, it could mess up the automatic address assignment
>> of later MSCP hardware.
>> 
> 
> Not exactly.
> 
> VMS automatically looks for and initialises I/O devices at startup
> time. (There are exceptions to this but these do not come into
> play in this particular situation.)
> 
> Autogen is another thing entirely.  It is a tool which you run
> manually to set system parameters.  You don't have to run autogen
> to pick up changes in your I/O setup.  You just have to have your
> device configured the way VMS expects them to be and VMS will find
> them when you boot.

It won't if you do a minimum/conversational boot (STARTUP_P1 set to "MIN"),
devices won't be discovered unless the STARTUP CONFIGURE process runs. After
a minimum boot you need to MC SYSGEN AUTO ALL/LOG to pick up devices. Or
just do a full boot.

-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Peter Coghlan]

>
> Does Autogen recognize new hardware?
>
Yes, definitely.  Some older devices have switches (or even 
soldered jumpers) to set the CSR address.  If some of these 
are wrong, it could mess up the automatic address assignment 
of later MSCP hardware.




Not exactly.

VMS automatically looks for and initialises I/O devices at startup
time. (There are exceptions to this but these do not come into
play in this particular situation.)

Autogen is another thing entirely.  It is a tool which you run
manually to set system parameters.  You don't have to run autogen
to pick up changes in your I/O setup.  You just have to have your
device configured the way VMS expects them to be and VMS will find
them when you boot.

In the case of later technology such as PCI, you can pretty much
plug a board into any slot and VMS will find it with no further
thought required.  In the case of Qbus / Unibus, there may be
settings on the board which have to be changed depending on what
other board are present and what order they are in before VMS can
correctly find them.  Wrong settings on or the absence or failure
of one board or the presence of an unexpected board can all prevent
VMS from finding other boards.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Peter Coghlan]

[snip]



Device  Device   Error
  Name   Status   Count
MPA0:   Offline  0
PTA0:   Online   1
PUA0:   Online   1
PUB0:   Online   1

I swear that when I first installed VMS the DHV11 ports showed up in the 
show dev list on the MicroVax II.
The TQK50 controller (I have 2) were put into a MicroVax 4000 and that 
Vax saw each board, so I don't think the boards are bad.




It's not clear to me what issue you are reporting regarding the TQK50
controllers.  Are you saying that VMS is not seeing them because you don't
see any MUA devices listed?

PUA0 and PUB0 are your two disk controllers.  Some googling suggests that PTA0
is a tape controller.  (Google also suggests that one error at startup is to
be expected for PT/PU devices.)

Having PTA0 listed suggests that VMS is seeing the tape controller but not
seeing any actual tape drives attached to the controller.  Maybe the tape
drive or drives are not correctly attached to the controller or are not
powered?

(Don't worry about MPA0 - this is a virtual device expected to be absent
in VMS V5.5-2 and present in VMS V7.2.  It is not related to tape or serial
controllers.)

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Jon Elson]

On 08/17/2016 10:37 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote:
I've brought up a MicroVax II and installed VMS 5.5-2 on a 
SCSI2SD disk and it is fun to work with.  (I also 
installed openvms 7.2 without much drama)


The problem I am having is that is has a TK50 tape drive 
and controller, but it never has shown up in the device 
list.  I even swapped in a different controller.


The DHV11 did show up initially but has now disappeared 
from the device list.  Did I do this by removing boards 
and putting them back in?


A RQDX2 board was put back in at a secondary CSR address 
and that shows up (it is connected to an RX50 which shows 
up in the device list).


Does Autogen recognize new hardware?

Yes, definitely.  Some older devices have switches (or even 
soldered jumpers) to set the CSR address.  If some of these 
are wrong, it could mess up the automatic address assignment 
of later MSCP hardware.


Another possibility is dirty backplane/board contracts.  
Also, some LSI-11/uVAX hardware may be in the age where they 
are dying.  Many later devices will not show up on the bus 
if their internal microcontroller fails.
If the peripherals have socketed chips, you might try 
reseating those chips.


Jon

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Adrian Graham]

On 18/08/2016 04:37, "Douglas Taylor" <dj.tayl...@comcast.net> wrote:

> I've brought up a MicroVax II and installed VMS 5.5-2 on a SCSI2SD disk
> and it is fun to work with.  (I also installed openvms 7.2 without much
> drama)
> 
> The problem I am having is that is has a TK50 tape drive and controller,
> but it never has shown up in the device list.  I even swapped in a
> different controller.

What type of cab? BA23 or BA123 'world box'? In the BA123 the left 4 slots
from the left are CD interconnect, in a BA23 just the left 2. CD
interconnect means you can put a half-height card in the 'top' of slots 1-4
(or 1-2) and not need anything in the bottom. Which slot are you putting the
TQK50 in?
 
-- 
Adrian/Witchy
Binary Dinosaurs creator/curator
Www.binarydinosaurs.co.uk - the UK's biggest private home computer
collection?

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Douglas Taylor]

On 8/18/2016 4:39 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Paul Koning

 > A lot of Unibus/Qbus devices have "floating CSRs" which means they
 > don't have fixed address assignments. Instead, the correct address is
 > based on a set of rules, which puts devices in an ordered list and
 > assigns addresses in sequence. .. If you get the address wrong, the
 > system will see the device as the wrong type

What about if you have a series of devices (A, B, C, D, E), assigned addresses
in the correct order, and then you remove C from the system; will the software
stop probing for more devices when it gets to C (ie. D and E, although still
plugged in, will not be seen)?

Noel

The microvax has the following boards installed:
CPU - KA630
Memory - Clearpoint (8MB)
Memory - DEC MS630 (2MB)
DHV11
TQK50
Viking SCSI controller
DEC - RQDX2  (CSR set for 2nd position)
  There are 2 grant continuity boards installed also.

When I boot VMS 5.5 -
Welcome to VAX/VMS V5.5
Username: SYSTEM

Password:
Welcome to VAX/VMS version V5.5
Last interactive login on Wednesday, 17-AUG-2016 17:40

 $ show dev

Device  Device   ErrorVolume Free  Trans Mnt

 Name   Status   Count Label Blocks Count Cnt

DUA0:   Online   0
DUA1:   Mounted  0  VAXVMSV055 1954647   126   1

DUB0:   Online   0
DUB1:   Online   0

Device  Device   Error
 Name   Status   Count
FTA0:   Offline  0
OPA0:   Online   0

Device  Device   Error
 Name   Status   Count
PTA0:   Online   1
PUA0:   Online   1
PUB0:   Online   1
WSA0:   Offline  0

When I boot VMS 7.2 -
 Welcome to OpenVMS (TM) VAX Operating System, Version V7.2


Username: system

Password:
 Welcome to OpenVMS (TM) VAX Operating System, Version V7.2
Last interactive login on Wednesday, 17-AUG-2016 17:45

 $    show dev

Device  Device   ErrorVolume Free  Trans Mnt
 Name   Status   Count Label Blocks Count Cnt
MV2$DUA0:   Mounted  0  OVMSVAXSYS 1858635   138   1
MV2$DUA1:   Online   0
MV2$DUB0:   Online   0
MV2$DUB1:   Online   0

Device  Device   Error
 Name   Status   Count
FTA0:   Offline  0
OPA0:   Online   0

Device  Device   Error
 Name   Status   Count
MPA0:   Offline  0
PTA0:   Online   1
PUA0:   Online   1
PUB0:   Online   1

I swear that when I first installed VMS the DHV11 ports showed up in the 
show dev list on the MicroVax II.
The TQK50 controller (I have 2) were put into a MicroVax 4000 and that 
Vax saw each board, so I don't think the boards are bad.

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Jon Elson]

On 08/18/2016 03:39 PM, Noel Chiappa wrote:

 > From: Paul Koning

 > A lot of Unibus/Qbus devices have "floating CSRs" which means they
 > don't have fixed address assignments. Instead, the correct address is
 > based on a set of rules, which puts devices in an ordered list and
 > assigns addresses in sequence. .. If you get the address wrong, the
 > system will see the device as the wrong type

What about if you have a series of devices (A, B, C, D, E), assigned addresses
in the correct order, and then you remove C from the system; will the software
stop probing for more devices when it gets to C (ie. D and E, although still
plugged in, will not be seen)?


This can mess up the whole scheme.  I just gave up on the 
auto assignment of addresses, and wrote a script to 
configure the devices.  This was a big help as I was often 
putting boards in and out of the system.


(I went looking for the file and couldn't find it.)

Jon

Re: Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Paul Koning

> A lot of Unibus/Qbus devices have "floating CSRs" which means they
> don't have fixed address assignments. Instead, the correct address is
> based on a set of rules, which puts devices in an ordered list and
> assigns addresses in sequence. .. If you get the address wrong, the
> system will see the device as the wrong type

What about if you have a series of devices (A, B, C, D, E), assigned addresses
in the correct order, and then you remove C from the system; will the software
stop probing for more devices when it gets to C (ie. D and E, although still
plugged in, will not be seen)?

Noel

Microvax II hardware not recognized

[Douglas Taylor]

I've brought up a MicroVax II and installed VMS 5.5-2 on a SCSI2SD disk 
and it is fun to work with.  (I also installed openvms 7.2 without much 
drama)


The problem I am having is that is has a TK50 tape drive and controller, 
but it never has shown up in the device list.  I even swapped in a 
different controller.


The DHV11 did show up initially but has now disappeared from the device 
list.  Did I do this by removing boards and putting them back in?


A RQDX2 board was put back in at a secondary CSR address and that shows 
up (it is connected to an RX50 which shows up in the device list).


Does Autogen recognize new hardware?

Doug

RE: MicroVax II update

[Dave Wade]

> 
> 
> >
> > Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask
> because of the disk size limit under RT-11.

I believe so. It can be configured to look like several disks <1Gb for this
reason.

> >
> > Doug
> >

Dave

Re: MicroVax II update

[Jerry Weiss]

> On Aug 5, 2016, at 10:24 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.tayl...@verizon.net> wrote:
> 
> On 8/5/2016 6:18 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:
>> On Aug 5, 2016, at 3:48 PM, dersc...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>> On Aug 5, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.tayl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> Progress on getting the MVII up and running:
>>>> 
>>>> I ordered the SCSI2SD adapter and it has come in, the plan is to use it as 
>>>> the system disk on the MVII.
>>>> 
>>>> The hobbyist VMS PAKS have arrived and I was able to download the VMS 7.3 
>>>> iso, not sure what I can do with it since I think it must be burned to a 
>>>> 512 byte sector CD.
>>> Burn it to a CD.  Shouldn't be anything complex here.
>>> 
>>>> I asked if the PAKS were good for older versions of VMS, like 5.5, and was 
>>>> told yes they were.  We'll see about that.
>> Yes - I have used the same PAK on 5.5 and 7.3.
>> 
>>>> The Hobbyist VMS CD I had for VMS 7.2 was found and I was able to get the 
>>>> old Toshiba CD drive to work on the MV 4000 using a CQD 223A.  How can I 
>>>> create an image of these CD's on the VAX 4000 that I could use in an 
>>>> emulator?
>>>> 
>>>> I wasn't able to get the UC07 to see the CDROM because of a bad SCSI 
>>>> cable, I had hoped to format the SCSI2SD using the UC07
>>> Keep in mind that the SCSI2SD can pretend to be a CD-ROM, and can emulate 
>>> up to 4 SCSI devices at one go.  No need to futz with a real drive if you 
>>> don't want to...
>>> 
>>>> Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask 
>>>> because of the disk size limit under RT-11.’
>> Yes.  It works well with the later versions of RT11 V5.5-5.7. There are 
>> DU Handlers (MSCP) that allow a large disk  to be partitioned (in the 
>> handler) into multiple drives  I’ve used up to 7 in RT and 20+ in TSX+ 
>> drives at the same time.   Each drive is still limited to 32Mb per 
>> partition, but you can manage up to 255 partitions (~8GB).
>> 
> Jerry;
> 
> I am starting to read about the SCSI2SD and it will be very useful to have it 
> emulate multiple drives, I am thinking of one hard disk and up to 3 CDROMs, 
> one each for 5.5, 7.2 and 7.3.  If I want to use one of the SCSI id's for an 
> image of a VMS installation CD do I make its size exactly match the size of 
> the iso image (534MB for 7.3)?
> 

I haven’t used the SCSI2SD to emulate a CDROM, so I gladly defer to others to 
who have done it.  Your basic approach makes sense to me.  Just write the image 
directly to the blocks on a SD that match the starting offset for the partition 
you use in SCSI2SD and leave the blocksize as 512.I used DD on Linux or OSX 
and its easily to pipe images on and off the SD.   For Windows YMMV.

In my case I used a OSX to burn the VMS 7.3 iso to a CDROM.  Then I booted it 
on a Microvax 3100 and built a system.   From there I netbooted the MicroVax 
II.  Since then I also was have moved and booted the same SD images on the  
Microvax 3100, MV II and MV III using a UC07 (no SD partitions).If you can 
attach the SCSI2CD to the your VAX4000 Qbus, you can try the same.  I don’t 
think the KFQSA will work however.

> My problem is that the only computer with a SCSI interface in my possession 
> is the VAX (and microPDP11), so I will be forced to install from an actual 
> CD.  This isn't that bad though, I installed 7.2 about 12 years ago on the 
> VAX 4000 that I have.
> 
> About RT-11, I had 5.4 and it allowed you to use multiple 32MB partitions, 
> when I finish with the VAX I will start on the microPDP11.  I was just 
> curious if you could use the SCSI2SD adapter with RT-11, it looks like I can, 
> thanks.
> 

SCSI2SD works fine with RT11 and my UC07.

> I am at a loss to figure out how to get data onto the SD card partitions 
> outside of VMS, will simh recognize the partitions?

You can probably install cygwin on your Windows machine  It has dd and other 
byte banging tools to facilitate the transfer.  Alternately boot a Linux CDROM. 
  The SD card itself knows not of the partitions.  This geometry is stored in 
the SCSI2SD.

Jerry

Re: MicroVax II update

[Josh Dersch]

On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 7:44 PM, Douglas Taylor 
wrote:

> On 8/5/2016 4:48 PM, dersc...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>>
>> On Aug 5, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Progress on getting the MVII up and running:
>>>
>>> I ordered the SCSI2SD adapter and it has come in, the plan is to use it
>>> as the system disk on the MVII.
>>>
>>> The hobbyist VMS PAKS have arrived and I was able to download the VMS
>>> 7.3 iso, not sure what I can do with it since I think it must be burned to
>>> a 512 byte sector CD.
>>>
>> Burn it to a CD.  Shouldn't be anything complex here.
>>
> I was able to expand the compressed file using 7-Zip and generate the iso
> image.  However, when I tried to burn the iso to a CD Win7 reported that
> 'The selected disk image file is not valid'.  Not sure what all that means,
> but anyway VMS can't handle a CD with 2048 block size so I stopped fooling
> around with that.


The built-in ISO burning support in Win7 is garbage, use something like
ImgBurn or the like to do the job.


>
>
>> I asked if the PAKS were good for older versions of VMS, like 5.5, and
>>> was told yes they were.  We'll see about that.
>>>
>>> The Hobbyist VMS CD I had for VMS 7.2 was found and I was able to get
>>> the old Toshiba CD drive to work on the MV 4000 using a CQD 223A.  How can
>>> I create an image of these CD's on the VAX 4000 that I could use in an
>>> emulator?
>>>
>>> I wasn't able to get the UC07 to see the CDROM because of a bad SCSI
>>> cable, I had hoped to format the SCSI2SD using the UC07
>>>
>> Keep in mind that the SCSI2SD can pretend to be a CD-ROM, and can emulate
>> up to 4 SCSI devices at one go.  No need to futz with a real drive if you
>> don't want to...
>>
>> Josh
>>
> Yes, I believe that is the way to proceed.  Let the SCSI2SD be a couple of
> drives, one for installing the software onto and another to contain the
> installation CD image.  At this point it is kind of a 'chicken and the egg'
> thing for me, the only scsi interface I have is on the VAX.  I don't have
> one on the PC where the VMS image is, so I'm perplexed as to how I get the
> software installation CD onto the SCSI2SD SD card.


You can do it pretty easily if you have an SD card reader in your PC --
what I'd do is DD the image onto the SD card starting at block zero (there
are numerous dd-like tools for windows for doing this sort of thing).  Then
configure the SCSI2SD to present the first N sectors of the SD card (where
N is the number of 512-byte sectors in the CD image) as a CD-ROM, and use
the rest of the SD card for disks.

- Josh





>
>
>> Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask
>>> because of the disk size limit under RT-11.
>>>
>>> Doug
>>>
>>>
>

Re: MicroVax II update

[Douglas Taylor]

On 8/5/2016 6:18 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:

On Aug 5, 2016, at 3:48 PM, dersc...@gmail.com wrote:

On Aug 5, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:

Progress on getting the MVII up and running:

I ordered the SCSI2SD adapter and it has come in, the plan is to use it as the 
system disk on the MVII.

The hobbyist VMS PAKS have arrived and I was able to download the VMS 7.3 iso, 
not sure what I can do with it since I think it must be burned to a 512 byte 
sector CD.

Burn it to a CD.  Shouldn't be anything complex here.


I asked if the PAKS were good for older versions of VMS, like 5.5, and was told 
yes they were.  We'll see about that.

Yes - I have used the same PAK on 5.5 and 7.3.


The Hobbyist VMS CD I had for VMS 7.2 was found and I was able to get the old 
Toshiba CD drive to work on the MV 4000 using a CQD 223A.  How can I create an 
image of these CD's on the VAX 4000 that I could use in an emulator?

I wasn't able to get the UC07 to see the CDROM because of a bad SCSI cable, I 
had hoped to format the SCSI2SD using the UC07

Keep in mind that the SCSI2SD can pretend to be a CD-ROM, and can emulate up to 
4 SCSI devices at one go.  No need to futz with a real drive if you don't want 
to...


Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask because 
of the disk size limit under RT-11.’

Yes.  It works well with the later versions of RT11 V5.5-5.7. There are DU 
Handlers (MSCP) that allow a large disk  to be partitioned (in the handler) 
into multiple drives  I’ve used up to 7 in RT and 20+ in TSX+ drives at the 
same time.   Each drive is still limited to 32Mb per partition, but you can 
manage up to 255 partitions (~8GB).

Jerry



Jerry;

I am starting to read about the SCSI2SD and it will be very useful to 
have it emulate multiple drives, I am thinking of one hard disk and up 
to 3 CDROMs, one each for 5.5, 7.2 and 7.3.  If I want to use one of the 
SCSI id's for an image of a VMS installation CD do I make its size 
exactly match the size of the iso image (534MB for 7.3)?


My problem is that the only computer with a SCSI interface in my 
possession is the VAX (and microPDP11), so I will be forced to install 
from an actual CD.  This isn't that bad though, I installed 7.2 about 12 
years ago on the VAX 4000 that I have.


About RT-11, I had 5.4 and it allowed you to use multiple 32MB 
partitions, when I finish with the VAX I will start on the microPDP11.  
I was just curious if you could use the SCSI2SD adapter with RT-11, it 
looks like I can, thanks.


I am at a loss to figure out how to get data onto the SD card partitions 
outside of VMS, will simh recognize the partitions?


Doug

Re: MicroVax II update

[Douglas Taylor]

On 8/5/2016 4:48 PM, dersc...@gmail.com wrote:



On Aug 5, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:

Progress on getting the MVII up and running:

I ordered the SCSI2SD adapter and it has come in, the plan is to use it as the 
system disk on the MVII.

The hobbyist VMS PAKS have arrived and I was able to download the VMS 7.3 iso, 
not sure what I can do with it since I think it must be burned to a 512 byte 
sector CD.

Burn it to a CD.  Shouldn't be anything complex here.
I was able to expand the compressed file using 7-Zip and generate the 
iso image.  However, when I tried to burn the iso to a CD Win7 reported 
that 'The selected disk image file is not valid'.  Not sure what all 
that means, but anyway VMS can't handle a CD with 2048 block size so I 
stopped fooling around with that.



I asked if the PAKS were good for older versions of VMS, like 5.5, and was told 
yes they were.  We'll see about that.

The Hobbyist VMS CD I had for VMS 7.2 was found and I was able to get the old 
Toshiba CD drive to work on the MV 4000 using a CQD 223A.  How can I create an 
image of these CD's on the VAX 4000 that I could use in an emulator?

I wasn't able to get the UC07 to see the CDROM because of a bad SCSI cable, I 
had hoped to format the SCSI2SD using the UC07

Keep in mind that the SCSI2SD can pretend to be a CD-ROM, and can emulate up to 
4 SCSI devices at one go.  No need to futz with a real drive if you don't want 
to...

Josh
Yes, I believe that is the way to proceed.  Let the SCSI2SD be a couple 
of drives, one for installing the software onto and another to contain 
the installation CD image.  At this point it is kind of a 'chicken and 
the egg' thing for me, the only scsi interface I have is on the VAX.  I 
don't have one on the PC where the VMS image is, so I'm perplexed as to 
how I get the software installation CD onto the SCSI2SD SD card.



Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask because 
of the disk size limit under RT-11.

Doug

Re: MicroVax II update

[Jerry Weiss]

On Aug 5, 2016, at 3:48 PM, dersc...@gmail.com wrote:
> 
>> On Aug 5, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:
>> 
>> Progress on getting the MVII up and running:
>> 
>> I ordered the SCSI2SD adapter and it has come in, the plan is to use it as 
>> the system disk on the MVII.
>> 
>> The hobbyist VMS PAKS have arrived and I was able to download the VMS 7.3 
>> iso, not sure what I can do with it since I think it must be burned to a 512 
>> byte sector CD.
> 
> Burn it to a CD.  Shouldn't be anything complex here.
> 
>> 
>> I asked if the PAKS were good for older versions of VMS, like 5.5, and was 
>> told yes they were.  We'll see about that.

Yes - I have used the same PAK on 5.5 and 7.3.

>> 
>> The Hobbyist VMS CD I had for VMS 7.2 was found and I was able to get the 
>> old Toshiba CD drive to work on the MV 4000 using a CQD 223A.  How can I 
>> create an image of these CD's on the VAX 4000 that I could use in an 
>> emulator?
>> 
>> I wasn't able to get the UC07 to see the CDROM because of a bad SCSI cable, 
>> I had hoped to format the SCSI2SD using the UC07
> 
> Keep in mind that the SCSI2SD can pretend to be a CD-ROM, and can emulate up 
> to 4 SCSI devices at one go.  No need to futz with a real drive if you don't 
> want to...
> 
>> 
>> Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask 
>> because of the disk size limit under RT-11.’

Yes.  It works well with the later versions of RT11 V5.5-5.7. There are DU 
Handlers (MSCP) that allow a large disk  to be partitioned (in the handler) 
into multiple drives  I’ve used up to 7 in RT and 20+ in TSX+ drives at the 
same time.   Each drive is still limited to 32Mb per partition, but you can 
manage up to 255 partitions (~8GB).

Jerry

Re: MicroVax II update

[derschjo]

> On Aug 5, 2016, at 1:42 PM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:
> 
> Progress on getting the MVII up and running:
> 
> I ordered the SCSI2SD adapter and it has come in, the plan is to use it as 
> the system disk on the MVII.
> 
> The hobbyist VMS PAKS have arrived and I was able to download the VMS 7.3 
> iso, not sure what I can do with it since I think it must be burned to a 512 
> byte sector CD.

Burn it to a CD.  Shouldn't be anything complex here.

> 
> I asked if the PAKS were good for older versions of VMS, like 5.5, and was 
> told yes they were.  We'll see about that.
> 
> The Hobbyist VMS CD I had for VMS 7.2 was found and I was able to get the old 
> Toshiba CD drive to work on the MV 4000 using a CQD 223A.  How can I create 
> an image of these CD's on the VAX 4000 that I could use in an emulator?
> 
> I wasn't able to get the UC07 to see the CDROM because of a bad SCSI cable, I 
> had hoped to format the SCSI2SD using the UC07

Keep in mind that the SCSI2SD can pretend to be a CD-ROM, and can emulate up to 
4 SCSI devices at one go.  No need to futz with a real drive if you don't want 
to...

Josh


> 
> Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask because 
> of the disk size limit under RT-11.
> 
> Doug
> 

MicroVax II update

[Douglas Taylor]

Progress on getting the MVII up and running:

I ordered the SCSI2SD adapter and it has come in, the plan is to use it 
as the system disk on the MVII.


The hobbyist VMS PAKS have arrived and I was able to download the VMS 
7.3 iso, not sure what I can do with it since I think it must be burned 
to a 512 byte sector CD.


I asked if the PAKS were good for older versions of VMS, like 5.5, and 
was told yes they were.  We'll see about that.


The Hobbyist VMS CD I had for VMS 7.2 was found and I was able to get 
the old Toshiba CD drive to work on the MV 4000 using a CQD 223A.  How 
can I create an image of these CD's on the VAX 4000 that I could use in 
an emulator?


I wasn't able to get the UC07 to see the CDROM because of a bad SCSI 
cable, I had hoped to format the SCSI2SD using the UC07.


Is it possible to use the SCSI2SD on a microPDP-11 under RT-11? I ask 
because of the disk size limit under RT-11.


Doug

Re: MicroVax II

[Glen Slick]

On Aug 3, 2016 3:10 AM, "Peter Coghlan"  wrote:
>
> >
> > Also, the built in SCSI on a VAX 3100 doesn't support drives over 1GB.
> >
>
> That's not quite correct.
>

Yeah, more details than I could be 100% accurate about off the top of my
head and had the patience to type with one thumb.

The only point was to mention that if some systems have issues with SCSI
drives due to their capacity alone you can usually soft resize the drive
smaller. No need to pay a premium for older SCSI drives of 1GB native
capacity or smaller.

Re: MicroVax II

[Peter Coghlan]

>
> Also, the built in SCSI on a VAX 3100 doesn't support drives over 1GB.
>

That's not quite correct.

The firmware on VAXstation 3100 and early MicroVAX 3100 machines has issues
addressing directly attached SCSI disks larger than 1.073GB for booting and
doing system dumps only.  The issues can be worked around but this is not
recommended as it is possible to end up unexpectedly writing a system dump
over something else on the disk.

The issue does not arise with larger drives attached to later model MicroVAX
3100 machines (or early model MicroVAX 3100 machines with updated firmware
ROMs).

There are no issues with larger disks attached to any VAX 3100 machines if they
are not used for booting or dumping, ie they are used for storing data only.

See the OpenVMS FAQ for further details if required.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan. 

Re: MicroVax II

[Douglas Taylor]

On 7/29/2016 10:55 PM, Glen Slick wrote:

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.tayl...@comcast.net> wrote:

I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis.  I has a TK50,
RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA.  I'd like to get it running an OS.

The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that
might come in handy.

What OS's can I use with this hardware?  NetBSD?  Are versions of VMS
available?  How do you get an OS onto this system?

What Qbus SCSI controllers do you have? The CMD CQD-200 CQD-220, Dilog
SQ706A, Emulex UC07 I have tried were all able to boot from an
appropriate SCSI CD-ROM drive. That how I usually go about installing
OpenVMS 7.3 on a Qbus VAX. I never got around to picking up a SCSI-SD
adapter yet. I just use old fashioned rotating drives, although they
are 68-pin drives with 50-pin adapters.

I have a BA123 that I maxed out as a something close to a VAXstation
III/GPX. Replaced the M7606 KA630 with a M7625 KA655. There are only 4
Q22/CD slots so normally you can only have 48MB using 3 M7622 MS650
16MB boards plus the CPU. I found a couple of third-party 32MB boards
to max out at 64MB. Added a (2x) M7168 + M7169 VCB02 set for the GPX
graphics.

The BA123 is an interesting item for DEC collectors and I'm glad I was
able to pick one up, although it's been a while now since I last
powered it up.


I had 3 different types of SCSI CDROM's and none of them worked, they 
are DEC RRD42, Toshiba and a Sony.
The DEC was dead, removed the drive and applied power that I know is 
good (from a PC power supply in a working PC)
and nothing, no led, nothing.  The toshibas would spit the caddy back 
out after a few moments and the Sony

refused to eject the caddy.
Is there a SCSI CDROM to look for?
I'm curious about the 68 pin scsi drives, what type do you use?  The 
adapter, I guess it is 50 pin male to 68 pin male?

Doug

Re: MicroVax II

[Glen Slick]

On Aug 2, 2016 7:50 PM, "Douglas Taylor"  wrote:
>
> I had 3 different types of SCSI CDROM's and none of them worked, they are
DEC RRD42, Toshiba and a Sony.
> The DEC was dead, removed the drive and applied power that I know is good
(from a PC power supply in a working PC)
> and nothing, no led, nothing.  The toshibas would spit the caddy back out
after a few moments and the Sony
> refused to eject the caddy.
> Is there a SCSI CDROM to look for?
> I'm curious about the 68 pin scsi drives, what type do you use?  The
adapter, I guess it is 50 pin male to 68 pin male?
> Doug

I have had good luck with Plextor SCSI CD-ROM drives. I picked up some old
Plextor 4x, 6x, 8x caddy drives for a couple bucks each a RE-PC Seattle a
while ago. They have a 512-byte block mode jumper you need to set.

I got a box of 25+ IBM DDRS-39130 9GB 68-pin SCSI hard drives cheap from
someone on Craigslist a while back and have been using those with 50-pin
male / 68-pin male adapters. Only issue is that the Emulex UC07 firmware is
incompatible with them. The drives have a mode page that the UC07 doesn't
understand and it tries to do a mode select with some invalid bits for that
page, which fails. Then it keeps retrying that failure forever. No problem
with the CMD and Dilog controllers.

I often use the SG3utils sg_format utility to soft resize the 9GB drives
down to something smaller. 9GB might make sense on a VAX, not so much on a
PDP-11. Also, the built in SCSI on a VAX 3100 doesn't support drives over
1GB.

Re: MicroVax II

[Steven M Jones]

On 08/02/2016 19:49, Douglas Taylor wrote:
> 
> I had 3 different types of SCSI CDROM's and none of them worked [...]
> Is there a SCSI CDROM to look for?

That's unfortunate. The DEC badged drives would be ideal, but you should
be good with Sun-, HP- or SGI-badged drives, or Plextor and Toshiba
drives with a SCSI interface. For the non-workstation vendors, search up
the model spec sheets to see if you need to change a jumper or, in
unusual cases, cut a trace on the PCB.

All this info can be found on (third-party) CD-ROM FAQs for the
workstation vendors...


> I'm curious about the 68 pin scsi drives, what type do you use?  The
> adapter, I guess it is 50 pin male to 68 pin male?


The 68/80 to 50 pin adapters are straightforward and all over eBay. Be
advised that some drives spec'd for Ultra 320 may need a jumper or
simply won't behave properly on an 8-bit SCSI bus, but its doesn't seem
to be that common.

If you're looking for spinning iron, I'd recommend drives using the 80
pin SCA connectors. Checking the labels is best, but as a rule of thumb
they tend to be more recent production. However all of them are getting
long in the tooth!

For physical drives, most recently I've been getting the 2.5" Seagate
Savvio drives with the SCA connectors. They tend to "only" be ~10 years
old, and the smaller form factor often makes it easier to squeeze them
and the coverter board into drive carriers designed for 3.5" devices.

Be aware that if you don't know your equipment uses High Voltage
Differential (HVD) SCSI, avoid it or things that just say
"Differential." It will fry older/slower and Low Voltage Differential
(LVD) SCSI gear.


Sorry if any/all of that was already known, but I'm avoiding actual work
this evening. ;)

--S.

Re: MicroVax II

[Douglas Taylor]

On 7/29/2016 10:30 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:

On Jul 29, 2016, at 8:30 PM, Zane Healy <heal...@aracnet.com> wrote:



On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.tayl...@comcast.net> wrote:

I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis.  I has a TK50, RX50, 
RXDQ2, but no DEQNA.  I'd like to get it running an OS.

The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that 
might come in handy.

Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration?  Anyone 
have experience with this?

What OS's can I use with this hardware?  NetBSD?  Are versions of VMS 
available?  How do you get an OS onto this system?

The all around best choice would be VAX/VMS v5.5-2.  You can get Hobbyist 
licenses.  The OS was available as part of the Hobbyist program.  If you add a 
SCSI adapter, you can hopefully attach a CD.  IIRC, it will run up to either 
v7.2 or 7.3, at least I know I had v7.2 on a MicroVAX III (well, technically I 
still do, if it will boot).

Ultrix would also be available.

What I did though was I gave it a brain transplant, and converted mine to a 
PDP-11 once I got a better VAX.

I need to invest in a couple of those SD adapters myself.  I’d really like to 
put one on one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233’s.  Hopefully they’ll still work.  
It’s been years since I’ve done anything with my DEC HW. :-(


I have booted both V7.3 and V5.5-2  off a 4GB SD with SCSI2SD V4.6 on a 
MicroVax II with 16 Mb. Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either 
version.  You’ll need a DELQA.

You should be able to build a system with an emulator and then copy the binary 
to an SD card. i’ve taken images both ways without problems.   Alternately if 
you get a DELQA, you can netboot off of another Vaxen and build an bootable 
disk that way.

Jerry


The MVII I have has no network card so I may have to prepare the SD card 
using an emulator.  I waiting for the SCSI2SD adapter and the Hobbyist 
License access at this point.


Doug

Re: MicroVax II (Doug)

[John H. Reinhardt]

On 7/31/2016 10:38 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote:


That sounds good.  BTW, where do I go to get the VMS hobbyist license
PAKS and downloads?  I'm running into dead links.

Doug


Things recently (last few months) changed and the OpenVMS Hobbyist licenses are now 
handled by the HPE office in India.  The URL for the application is 


When you choose a chapter for "Participating Chapter" choose "DECUSERVE" if you don't belong to 
one.  Then telnet (no SSH) to eisner.decuserve.com where you will get a login page and choose the 
"REGISTRATION" option. This will get you a DECUS member number that you can supply for the hobbyist license. 
Once you are logged into the system you can find your membership number by typing the command "HOBBYIST"

Once you get your reply from HPE then you can also reply to that email and ask 
for the FTP credentials to download a VMS 7.3 VAX install disk image or Alpha 
or IA64 for that matter - just ask for all that you want.

Remember that when you apply it is going to India so plan for the timezone and 
weekend change accordingly.


John H. Reinhardt

Re: MicroVax II (Doug)

[william degnan]

On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 10:38 PM, Douglas Taylor 
wrote:

> On 7/31/2016 10:35 PM, william degnan wrote:
>
>> I have the multinet install on a SCSI vax expansion hard drive on my 3100,
>> I have a way to use this on someone's main system, to install it.  Clunky
>> but it works.  I also have the process documented.
>> Bill
>>
>
> That sounds good.  BTW, where do I go to get the VMS hobbyist license PAKS
> and downloads?  I'm running into dead links.
>
> Doug
>
>
>

When we come to that point
-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg 
Youtube: @billdeg 
Unauthorized Bio 

Re: MicroVax II (Doug)

[Douglas Taylor]

On 7/31/2016 10:35 PM, william degnan wrote:

I have the multinet install on a SCSI vax expansion hard drive on my 3100,
I have a way to use this on someone's main system, to install it.  Clunky
but it works.  I also have the process documented.
Bill


That sounds good.  BTW, where do I go to get the VMS hobbyist license 
PAKS and downloads?  I'm running into dead links.


Doug

Re: MicroVax II (Doug)

[william degnan]

I have the multinet install on a SCSI vax expansion hard drive on my 3100,
I have a way to use this on someone's main system, to install it.  Clunky
but it works.  I also have the process documented.
Bill

Re: MicroVax II (Doug)

[Douglas Taylor]

On 7/31/2016 3:58 PM, Steven M Jones wrote:

On 07/31/2016 11:27, Douglas Taylor wrote:

On 7/31/2016 2:44 AM, Graham Reid wrote:

They were just networked, it wasn't a cluster.

Do you remember if the networking software was part of VMS 5.5 or was it
a third party?  I seem to remember third party TCPIP software,
Multiware, etc.

If he meant they just used DECNET, then it basically came with the OS.
You might have actually paid extra for it in a commercial setting - I
only dealt with educational or hobbyist licensing, and it was included
in those instances.

By this time I think DEC had released their Ultrix Connection (UCX)
TCP/IP and utilities product. It combined the protocol stack, some
services and network utilities, and things like a ported Berkeley-style
C shell (/bin/csh). Using that last was a mildly odd experience... They
later replaced that with TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS.

As Bill Degnan pointed out, the "hot ticket" commercial TCP/IP stack in
the VMS 5.x era was MultiNet.

There was the older CMU/IP package that everybody seemed to want to get
off of as soon as something else was available. Process Software had
TCPware, which I never encountered in the wild. And of course The
Wollongong Group offered a TCP/IP stack along with Eunice (Unix emulator).

--S.


I got it half right  UCX rings a bell since I had the OpenVMS 7.2 on 
a newer VAX and the networking portion had that name.  It's been awhile 
and I have forgotten many of the details.

Re: MicroVax II (Doug)

[Douglas Taylor]

On 7/31/2016 5:40 PM, william degnan wrote:

On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Steven M Jones 
wrote:


On 07/31/2016 11:27, Douglas Taylor wrote:

On 7/31/2016 2:44 AM, Graham Reid wrote:

They were just networked, it wasn't a cluster.

Do you remember if the networking software was part of VMS 5.5 or was it
a third party?  I seem to remember third party TCPIP software,
Multiware, etc.

If he meant they just used DECNET, then it basically came with the OS.
You might have actually paid extra for it in a commercial setting - I
only dealt with educational or hobbyist licensing, and it was included
in those instances.

By this time I think DEC had released their Ultrix Connection (UCX)
TCP/IP and utilities product. It combined the protocol stack, some
services and network utilities, and things like a ported Berkeley-style
C shell (/bin/csh). Using that last was a mildly odd experience... They
later replaced that with TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS.

As Bill Degnan pointed out, the "hot ticket" commercial TCP/IP stack in
the VMS 5.x era was MultiNet.

There was the older CMU/IP package that everybody seemed to want to get
off of as soon as something else was available. Process Software had
TCPware, which I never encountered in the wild. And of course The
Wollongong Group offered a TCP/IP stack along with Eunice (Unix emulator).

--S.



If you can get the machine to my house some how I might be able to get
MULTINET on your VAX,or at a workshop in the MidAtlantic area.  I live near
Philadelphia
Bill


Bill;

I am planning on bringing the MVII to VCF East next spring (assuming I 
get it up and running) .  I don't know of any other workshops, what were 
you thinking?


Doug

Re: MicroVax II (Doug)

[william degnan]

On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 3:58 PM, Steven M Jones 
wrote:

> On 07/31/2016 11:27, Douglas Taylor wrote:
> > On 7/31/2016 2:44 AM, Graham Reid wrote:
> >>
> >> They were just networked, it wasn't a cluster.
> >
> > Do you remember if the networking software was part of VMS 5.5 or was it
> > a third party?  I seem to remember third party TCPIP software,
> > Multiware, etc.
>
> If he meant they just used DECNET, then it basically came with the OS.
> You might have actually paid extra for it in a commercial setting - I
> only dealt with educational or hobbyist licensing, and it was included
> in those instances.
>
> By this time I think DEC had released their Ultrix Connection (UCX)
> TCP/IP and utilities product. It combined the protocol stack, some
> services and network utilities, and things like a ported Berkeley-style
> C shell (/bin/csh). Using that last was a mildly odd experience... They
> later replaced that with TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS.
>
> As Bill Degnan pointed out, the "hot ticket" commercial TCP/IP stack in
> the VMS 5.x era was MultiNet.
>
> There was the older CMU/IP package that everybody seemed to want to get
> off of as soon as something else was available. Process Software had
> TCPware, which I never encountered in the wild. And of course The
> Wollongong Group offered a TCP/IP stack along with Eunice (Unix emulator).
>
> --S.
>


If you can get the machine to my house some how I might be able to get
MULTINET on your VAX,or at a workshop in the MidAtlantic area.  I live near
Philadelphia
Bill
-- 
@ BillDeg:
Web: vintagecomputer.net
Twitter: @billdeg 
Youtube: @billdeg 
Unauthorized Bio 

Re: MicroVax II (Doug)

[Steven M Jones]

On 07/31/2016 11:27, Douglas Taylor wrote:
> On 7/31/2016 2:44 AM, Graham Reid wrote:
>>
>> They were just networked, it wasn't a cluster.
> 
> Do you remember if the networking software was part of VMS 5.5 or was it
> a third party?  I seem to remember third party TCPIP software,
> Multiware, etc.

If he meant they just used DECNET, then it basically came with the OS.
You might have actually paid extra for it in a commercial setting - I
only dealt with educational or hobbyist licensing, and it was included
in those instances.

By this time I think DEC had released their Ultrix Connection (UCX)
TCP/IP and utilities product. It combined the protocol stack, some
services and network utilities, and things like a ported Berkeley-style
C shell (/bin/csh). Using that last was a mildly odd experience... They
later replaced that with TCP/IP Services for OpenVMS.

As Bill Degnan pointed out, the "hot ticket" commercial TCP/IP stack in
the VMS 5.x era was MultiNet.

There was the older CMU/IP package that everybody seemed to want to get
off of as soon as something else was available. Process Software had
TCPware, which I never encountered in the wild. And of course The
Wollongong Group offered a TCP/IP stack along with Eunice (Unix emulator).

--S.

Re: MicroVax II (Doug)

[william degnan]

>
>
> Graham;
>
> Do you remember if the networking software was part of VMS 5.5 or was it
a third party?  I seem to remember third party TCPIP software, Multiware,
etc.
>
> Doug
>

MULTINET is what I think you mean.
B

Re: MicroVax II (Doug)

[Douglas Taylor]

On 7/31/2016 2:44 AM, Graham Reid wrote:

The company I worked for in 1989 had three hand-me-down MicroVax II from
the US parent.

They were originally a PDP11/73 box, which had been converted.

They ran VMS 5.5-2, all had DEQNA, with no problems that I remember. They
were just networked, it wasn't a cluster.
The DEQNA may have been *unsupported* on 5.5, but it seeded to work OK.

I still have one system, and bits of the others. Failing ESDI drives put
them to the back of the garage.

I do have a replacement ESDI drive, and a Q-bus SCSI controller, so when i
get time (ha!), I'll resurrect it.


Regards, Graham


Graham;

Do you remember if the networking software was part of VMS 5.5 or was it 
a third party?  I seem to remember third party TCPIP software, 
Multiware, etc.


Doug

re: MicroVax II (Doug)

[Graham Reid]

The company I worked for in 1989 had three hand-me-down MicroVax II from
the US parent.

They were originally a PDP11/73 box, which had been converted.

They ran VMS 5.5-2, all had DEQNA, with no problems that I remember. They
were just networked, it wasn't a cluster.
The DEQNA may have been *unsupported* on 5.5, but it seeded to work OK.

I still have one system, and bits of the others. Failing ESDI drives put
them to the back of the garage.

I do have a replacement ESDI drive, and a Q-bus SCSI controller, so when i
get time (ha!), I'll resurrect it.


Regards, Graham

DEQNA and VMS 5, was Re: MicroVax II

[Steven M Jones]

On 07/29/2016 19:30, Jerry Weiss wrote:
>
> Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either version. 
> You’ll need a DELQA.

On 07/30/2016 08:50, Paul Koning wrote:
> 
> Yes, VMS stopped supporting the QNA at some point because, even
> after 12 ECOs, it could not be made to work properly.  If I
> remember right, the issues showed up mostly in clusters; DECnet
> didn't mind so much.


The DEQNA was deprecated and for good reason, though you could still use
it with many if not most versions of VMS 5.x. And as Paul points out if
you're using it for lighter duty, or if it's all you've got, you might
as well give it a shot.

I was working at MIT in '90-91 and one of the labs (LIDS, I believe) had
a cluster of VAXstation 2000s being served by a MicroVAX II. The
VAXstations may have had a small local disk, but they were all clustered
with if not booting from the MVII.

The MVII had a DEQNA, which I discovered meant that when I was doing
I-forget-what for them and brought the cluster back up, I had to
sequence the booting of the VAXstations. If I booted two of them too
close together, the MVII would crash.

But it did work, if you'll accept that caveat as "working," and by that
time if they were still running (Micro)VMS 4.x it would have stood out.

I'm sure I did tell them to get a DELQA, preferably a DELQA-YM, but many
of the labs I supported were running on a shoestring, and indentured
graduate students to reboot as needed were often cheaper than new
hardware...

--S.

Re: MicroVax II

[Maciej W. Rozycki]

On Sat, 30 Jul 2016, Greg Stark wrote:

> The hardest part was getting mopd on Linux to serve up the NetBSD boot
> loader properly. The mopd for Linux didn't support ELF images and the
> NetBSD boot loader isn't in mopd format in more recent versions of
> NetBSD like it was in older versions. Now it's just ELF. But it's
> finally working. If you use NetBSD to serve mopd this isn't an issue.
> If you want to use Linux I can send you an mopd format copy of the
> boot loader.

 FWIW, I had to deal with a buggy DECstation REX firmware revision which 
crashes on an attempt to use TFTP for booting (plus FDDI network hardware 
such as DEFZA, etc. only supports MOP booting by design), so I have added 
ELF support to Linux `mopd' some 15 years ago, to be able to netboot Linux 
kernels with no hassle.  I guess it's the matter of finding the right 
patches then, and I'm sorry to hear you had issues despite that you 
shouldn't have.

 As I have figured out earlier this year only said ELF support patch as 
well as some other improvements were imported by Debian soon after I made 
them, and then the package maintainer broke them later on with another 
patch applied on top.  Obviously nobody noticed or cared to report the 
breakage and I wasn't aware myself as I have only ever used my own RPM 
packages which I have created in the first place and then built from 
sources on a RedHat system.

  Maciej

Netbooting NetBSD/vax - was Re: MicroVax II

[Toby Thain]

On 2016-07-30 12:09 PM, Greg Stark wrote:

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 2:38 AM, Mouse <mo...@rodents-montreal.org> wrote:


What OS's can I use with this hardware?  NetBSD?


Yes.  Recent (and some not-so-recent) versions are broken, in that they
can't self-host; as far as I know nobody knows exactly what's wrong.
My impression (as someone who hasn't tried it, but who has seen it
discussed on port-vax) is that something breaks somewhere in the
compiler when running native.

You may also find recent(ish) versions are too resource-hungry; the
MicroVAX-II can't have more than 16M RAM, which is pretty tiny by
modern NetBSD's standards (pretty much ever since they relegated most
ports to second-class, er, sorry, "organic" status).


The Micro VAX II supports mop booting so you can boot NetBSD entirely
diskless with an NFS from a BSD or Linux NFS server just fine. This is
supported right up to current versions of NetBSD though I recommend
NetBSD 6.1.5. Later versions have bugs GCC which cause massive
headaches. Even the GCC in 6.1.5 is a bit buggy. I had to recompile
awk with -O0 or else various

I followed:

http://www.netbsd.org/docs/network/netboot/

I forget where I diverged from it so if you run into any issues just
ask and I'll check what I did.


FWIW I also put this HOWTO together for NetBSD 1.4.1.

https://github.com/qu1j0t3/mopd/blob/master/HOWTO-MicroVAX-II.md

--Toby



The hardest part was getting mopd on Linux to serve up the NetBSD boot
loader properly. The mopd for Linux didn't support ELF images and the
NetBSD boot loader isn't in mopd format in more recent versions of
NetBSD like it was in older versions. Now it's just ELF. But it's
finally working. If you use NetBSD to serve mopd this isn't an issue.
If you want to use Linux I can send you an mopd format copy of the
boot loader.
...

Re: MicroVax II

[Greg Stark]

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 5:09 PM, Greg Stark  wrote:
> headaches. Even the GCC in 6.1.5 is a bit buggy. I had to recompile
> awk with -O0 or else various

s/$/ configure scripts failed./


-- 
greg

Re: MicroVax II

[Greg Stark]

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 2:38 AM, Mouse <mo...@rodents-montreal.org> wrote:

>> What OS's can I use with this hardware?  NetBSD?
>
> Yes.  Recent (and some not-so-recent) versions are broken, in that they
> can't self-host; as far as I know nobody knows exactly what's wrong.
> My impression (as someone who hasn't tried it, but who has seen it
> discussed on port-vax) is that something breaks somewhere in the
> compiler when running native.
>
> You may also find recent(ish) versions are too resource-hungry; the
> MicroVAX-II can't have more than 16M RAM, which is pretty tiny by
> modern NetBSD's standards (pretty much ever since they relegated most
> ports to second-class, er, sorry, "organic" status).

The Micro VAX II supports mop booting so you can boot NetBSD entirely
diskless with an NFS from a BSD or Linux NFS server just fine. This is
supported right up to current versions of NetBSD though I recommend
NetBSD 6.1.5. Later versions have bugs GCC which cause massive
headaches. Even the GCC in 6.1.5 is a bit buggy. I had to recompile
awk with -O0 or else various

I followed:

http://www.netbsd.org/docs/network/netboot/

I forget where I diverged from it so if you run into any issues just
ask and I'll check what I did.

The hardest part was getting mopd on Linux to serve up the NetBSD boot
loader properly. The mopd for Linux didn't support ELF images and the
NetBSD boot loader isn't in mopd format in more recent versions of
NetBSD like it was in older versions. Now it's just ELF. But it's
finally working. If you use NetBSD to serve mopd this isn't an issue.
If you want to use Linux I can send you an mopd format copy of the
boot loader.

There are lots of advantages of booting diskless but my main
motivation was that older hard drives can be quite noisy. The
Vaxstation without a drive is fairly quiet, the only noise is the
power supply fan. Also they're moving parts that often fail and can be
quite small.

Having 20G of space for my root filesystem is quite handy too and now
I can easily take lvm snapshots, backups, etc so if this Vaxstation
dies I could perhaps find another and netboot it from the same root. I
should be able to boot simh from the same root too though I haven't
tried that. I'm not sure simh supports mopd so I might need to create
a boot device that remounts NFS over it.

-- 
greg

Re: MicroVax II

[Jerry Weiss]

On Jul 30, 2016, at 10:26 AM, Douglas Taylor <dj.tayl...@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> On 7/29/2016 10:30 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:
>> On Jul 29, 2016, at 8:30 PM, Zane Healy <heal...@aracnet.com> wrote:
>>> 
>>>> On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.tayl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>>>> 
>>>> I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis.  I has a TK50, 
>>>> RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA.  I'd like to get it running an OS.
>>>> 
>>>> The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that 
>>>> might come in handy.
>>>> 
>>>> Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration?  
>>>> Anyone have experience with this?
>>>> 
>>>> What OS's can I use with this hardware?  NetBSD?  Are versions of VMS 
>>>> available?  How do you get an OS onto this system?
>>> The all around best choice would be VAX/VMS v5.5-2.  You can get Hobbyist 
>>> licenses.  The OS was available as part of the Hobbyist program.  If you 
>>> add a SCSI adapter, you can hopefully attach a CD.  IIRC, it will run up to 
>>> either v7.2 or 7.3, at least I know I had v7.2 on a MicroVAX III (well, 
>>> technically I still do, if it will boot).
>>> 
>>> Ultrix would also be available.
>>> 
>>> What I did though was I gave it a brain transplant, and converted mine to a 
>>> PDP-11 once I got a better VAX.
>>> 
>>> I need to invest in a couple of those SD adapters myself.  I’d really like 
>>> to put one on one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233’s.  Hopefully they’ll still 
>>> work.  It’s been years since I’ve done anything with my DEC HW. :-(
>>> 
>> I have booted both V7.3 and V5.5-2  off a 4GB SD with SCSI2SD V4.6 on a 
>> MicroVax II with 16 Mb. Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either 
>> version.  You’ll need a DELQA.
>> 
>> You should be able to build a system with an emulator and then copy the 
>> binary to an SD card. i’ve taken images both ways without problems.   
>> Alternately if you get a DELQA, you can netboot off of another Vaxen and 
>> build an bootable disk that way.
>> 
>> Jerry
> 
> That is awfully good news for me.  How did you format the SD card?  What kind 
> of drive was it emulating?
> 
> I don't have 16 Mb, but 5 Mb.  I understand the DEQNA was not supported in 
> VMS 5, should've kept the one I had.
> 

I use a UC07 controller and it presents the SD/SCS2SD as a MSCP drive. It 
doesn’t matter what type of drive I label the drive using 
the Emulex built it utilities  (RA81, RA92..). VMS sees all the space the 
SCSI2SD adapter presents.   The SD is
is a block level device and can be written directly to.  No further (lower 
level) formatting is necessary.



7603200
512
63

255





DEC 



RA92



4.30


VAX50001 

Start off by getting the Hobbyist License.   When you sign up you get access to 
a VMS 7.3 distribution Iso.
Then you need to sort out your install method.  Either burn the ISO and  try to 
boot it or go
the emulation route.  

Jerry

Re: MicroVax II

[Zane Healy]

> On Jul 30, 2016, at 8:52 AM, Douglas Taylor <dj.tayl...@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> I agree, I remember using a MicroVax II in the BA123 box back in the mid 
> 1980's and wanted to have one and now I do.
> 
> The only thing I forgot was just how heavy the damn thing is!
> 
> I just looked and here is what I have:
> 
> VMS V5.5-2 BIN Oct 92 Disk 1 of 1 CDROM
> 
> Viking SCSI controller - I think this is disk only and used it in the past. 
> Viking A/B A4.0 on rom.
> 
> Alphatronix SCSI controller - this is rebadged Viking not sure how it is set 
> up, disk/tape or disk.
> 
> Emulex UC07 - this is has S-box handles and have used it in a VAX 4000.
> 
> DEC KZQSA - this is also S-box also
> 
> CMD - CQD 223A/TM in S-box configuration
> 
> DEC - RRD42 external SCSI CDROM drive
> 
> I've only used the Viking boards to control a single drive in the past ( I 
> think, its been a long time ).
> 
> I am reluctant to remove the S-box handles as they seem to be riveted to the 
> board.
> 
> The CD is DEC and I'm not sure of how much is on it, is it just an OS?  Can 
> it be used with the MVII?
> 
> It looks like I could use one of the Viking controllers to talk to the RRD42 
> and a SCSI to SD card drive and get up and running. How many things could go 
> wrong?
> 
> Doug

IIRC, the Alphatronix SCSI adapter may only talk to their CD-Jukeboxes.

You’re in great shape with that CD, that’s an awesome score!

I have two HD’s, a Plextor CD-ROM, and a 4mm DAT tape drive on a single Viking 
QDT in my PDP-11.

The RRD42 should work just fine.

Zane

Re: MicroVax II

[Douglas Taylor]

On 7/30/2016 11:50 AM, Paul Koning wrote:

On Jul 29, 2016, at 10:30 PM, Jerry Weiss <j...@ieee.org> wrote:

...
I have booted both V7.3 and V5.5-2  off a 4GB SD with SCSI2SD V4.6 on a 
MicroVax II with 16 Mb. Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either 
version. You’ll need a DELQA.

Yes, VMS stopped supporting the QNA at some point because, even after 12 ECOs, 
it could not be made to work properly.  If I remember right, the issues showed 
up mostly in clusters; DECnet didn't mind so much.  If all you can get is a 
QNA, you either need a sufficiently old version of VMS, or an OS that is more 
forgiving of bogus hardware.

paul

If I can get it up and running without networking that would be 
acceptable.  I'm just interested in seeing it running again.


Doug

Re: MicroVax II

[Zane Healy]

> On Jul 30, 2016, at 8:19 AM, Douglas Taylor <dj.tayl...@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> I have a couple of Viking (TD Systems) scsi controllers which is what I am 
> thinking of using.  I have some S-Box SCSI controllers then may come in handy.
> 
> I like the idea of VMS 5.5 just to restore the system back to its former 
> glory.
> 
> Doug

I think we’ve discussed your Viking boards before.  I think they’ll work just 
fine, but in all honestly, I’ve never tried.  Viking boards are all in 
PDP-11’s. :-)  The reason I suggest 5.5-2 is that you can get a decent TCP/IP 
stack for it, AND, it’s requirements are low enough to work well on a MicroVAX 
II.  In fact it’s what I tend to prefer to run on VAXen.  Having said that, I’d 
like to get a v4.x system up and running at some point.  My MicroVAX III was 
running 4.something when I got it.  I booted it up, played around, powered it 
down, and the RD53 wouldn’t power back up.  I’ve been kicking myself for about 
18 years for not grabbing a backup when I first powered it on!

If you can get a copy of the Hobbyist V1 CD-ROM, it’s well worth the effort.  
It has v5 and I think v6, as well as a lot of freeware.  IIRC though, it lacks 
layered products.

Zane

Re: MicroVax II

[Douglas Taylor]

On 7/29/2016 10:55 PM, Glen Slick wrote:

On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.tayl...@comcast.net> wrote:

I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis.  I has a TK50,
RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA.  I'd like to get it running an OS.

The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that
might come in handy.

What OS's can I use with this hardware?  NetBSD?  Are versions of VMS
available?  How do you get an OS onto this system?

What Qbus SCSI controllers do you have? The CMD CQD-200 CQD-220, Dilog
SQ706A, Emulex UC07 I have tried were all able to boot from an
appropriate SCSI CD-ROM drive. That how I usually go about installing
OpenVMS 7.3 on a Qbus VAX. I never got around to picking up a SCSI-SD
adapter yet. I just use old fashioned rotating drives, although they
are 68-pin drives with 50-pin adapters.

I have a BA123 that I maxed out as a something close to a VAXstation
III/GPX. Replaced the M7606 KA630 with a M7625 KA655. There are only 4
Q22/CD slots so normally you can only have 48MB using 3 M7622 MS650
16MB boards plus the CPU. I found a couple of third-party 32MB boards
to max out at 64MB. Added a (2x) M7168 + M7169 VCB02 set for the GPX
graphics.

The BA123 is an interesting item for DEC collectors and I'm glad I was
able to pick one up, although it's been a while now since I last
powered it up.


I agree, I remember using a MicroVax II in the BA123 box back in the mid 
1980's and wanted to have one and now I do.


The only thing I forgot was just how heavy the damn thing is!

I just looked and here is what I have:

VMS V5.5-2 BIN Oct 92 Disk 1 of 1 CDROM

Viking SCSI controller - I think this is disk only and used it in the 
past. Viking A/B A4.0 on rom.


Alphatronix SCSI controller - this is rebadged Viking not sure how it is 
set up, disk/tape or disk.


Emulex UC07 - this is has S-box handles and have used it in a VAX 4000.

DEC KZQSA - this is also S-box also

CMD - CQD 223A/TM in S-box configuration

DEC - RRD42 external SCSI CDROM drive

I've only used the Viking boards to control a single drive in the past ( 
I think, its been a long time ).


I am reluctant to remove the S-box handles as they seem to be riveted to 
the board.


The CD is DEC and I'm not sure of how much is on it, is it just an OS?  
Can it be used with the MVII?


It looks like I could use one of the Viking controllers to talk to the 
RRD42 and a SCSI to SD card drive and get up and running. How many 
things could go wrong?


Doug

Re: MicroVax II

[Paul Koning]

> On Jul 29, 2016, at 10:30 PM, Jerry Weiss <j...@ieee.org> wrote:
> 
> ...
> I have booted both V7.3 and V5.5-2  off a 4GB SD with SCSI2SD V4.6 on a 
> MicroVax II with 16 Mb. Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either 
> version. You’ll need a DELQA.

Yes, VMS stopped supporting the QNA at some point because, even after 12 ECOs, 
it could not be made to work properly.  If I remember right, the issues showed 
up mostly in clusters; DECnet didn't mind so much.  If all you can get is a 
QNA, you either need a sufficiently old version of VMS, or an OS that is more 
forgiving of bogus hardware.

paul

Re: MicroVax II

[Douglas Taylor]

On 7/29/2016 10:30 PM, Jerry Weiss wrote:

On Jul 29, 2016, at 8:30 PM, Zane Healy <heal...@aracnet.com> wrote:



On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.tayl...@comcast.net> wrote:

I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis.  I has a TK50, RX50, 
RXDQ2, but no DEQNA.  I'd like to get it running an OS.

The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that 
might come in handy.

Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration?  Anyone 
have experience with this?

What OS's can I use with this hardware?  NetBSD?  Are versions of VMS 
available?  How do you get an OS onto this system?

The all around best choice would be VAX/VMS v5.5-2.  You can get Hobbyist 
licenses.  The OS was available as part of the Hobbyist program.  If you add a 
SCSI adapter, you can hopefully attach a CD.  IIRC, it will run up to either 
v7.2 or 7.3, at least I know I had v7.2 on a MicroVAX III (well, technically I 
still do, if it will boot).

Ultrix would also be available.

What I did though was I gave it a brain transplant, and converted mine to a 
PDP-11 once I got a better VAX.

I need to invest in a couple of those SD adapters myself.  I’d really like to 
put one on one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233’s.  Hopefully they’ll still work.  
It’s been years since I’ve done anything with my DEC HW. :-(


I have booted both V7.3 and V5.5-2  off a 4GB SD with SCSI2SD V4.6 on a 
MicroVax II with 16 Mb. Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either 
version.  You’ll need a DELQA.

You should be able to build a system with an emulator and then copy the binary 
to an SD card. i’ve taken images both ways without problems.   Alternately if 
you get a DELQA, you can netboot off of another Vaxen and build an bootable 
disk that way.

Jerry


That is awfully good news for me.  How did you format the SD card?  What 
kind of drive was it emulating?


I don't have 16 Mb, but 5 Mb.  I understand the DEQNA was not supported 
in VMS 5, should've kept the one I had.


Doug

Re: MicroVax II

[Douglas Taylor]

On 7/29/2016 9:30 PM, Zane Healy wrote:

On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.tayl...@comcast.net> wrote:

I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis.  I has a TK50, RX50, 
RXDQ2, but no DEQNA.  I'd like to get it running an OS.

The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that 
might come in handy.

Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration?  Anyone 
have experience with this?

What OS's can I use with this hardware?  NetBSD?  Are versions of VMS 
available?  How do you get an OS onto this system?

The all around best choice would be VAX/VMS v5.5-2.  You can get Hobbyist 
licenses.  The OS was available as part of the Hobbyist program.  If you add a 
SCSI adapter, you can hopefully attach a CD.  IIRC, it will run up to either 
v7.2 or 7.3, at least I know I had v7.2 on a MicroVAX III (well, technically I 
still do, if it will boot).

Ultrix would also be available.

What I did though was I gave it a brain transplant, and converted mine to a 
PDP-11 once I got a better VAX.

I need to invest in a couple of those SD adapters myself.  I’d really like to 
put one on one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233’s.  Hopefully they’ll still work.  
It’s been years since I’ve done anything with my DEC HW. :-(

Zane



I have a couple of Viking (TD Systems) scsi controllers which is what I 
am thinking of using.  I have some S-Box SCSI controllers then may come 
in handy.


I like the idea of VMS 5.5 just to restore the system back to its former 
glory.


Doug

Re: MicroVax II

[Jarratt RMA]

> 
> On 30 July 2016 at 02:30 Zane Healy <heal...@aracnet.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> > On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.tayl...@comcast.net>
> > wrote:
> >
> > I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis. I has a TK50,
> > RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA. I'd like to get it running an OS.
> >
> > The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers
> > that might come in handy.
> >
> > Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration?
> > Anyone have experience with this?
> >
> > What OS's can I use with this hardware? NetBSD? Are versions of VMS
> > available? How do you get an OS onto this system?
> 
> The all around best choice would be VAX/VMS v5.5-2. You can get Hobbyist
> licenses. The OS was available as part of the Hobbyist program. If you add a
> SCSI adapter, you can hopefully attach a CD. IIRC, it will run up to either
> v7.2 or 7.3, at least I know I had v7.2 on a MicroVAX III (well, technically I
> still do, if it will boot).
> 
> Ultrix would also be available.
> 
> What I did though was I gave it a brain transplant, and converted mine to
> a PDP-11 once I got a better VAX.
> 
> I need to invest in a couple of those SD adapters myself. I’d really like
> to put one on one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233’s. Hopefully they’ll still
> work. It’s been years since I’ve done anything with my DEC HW. :-(
> 
> Zane
> 
> 
> 

>

Zane,

OT reply, but I have been looking for anyone with a working AlphaStation 200
4/233 who could run a test for me. If you get VMS (7.2-1 iirc) running on one of
them would you be prepared to run a test program of mine on it that would dump
the DROM and the NVRAM?

Thanks

Rob

Re: MicroVax II

[Zane Healy]

> On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor  wrote:
> 
> What OS's can I use with this hardware?  NetBSD?  Are versions of VMS 
> available?  How do you get an OS onto this system?

By the way, from an educational standpoint, this is a very good system to run 
VMS on, if you’re looking to learn about performance tuning.  Any changes you 
make will be very apparent. :-)

Zane

Re: MicroVax II

[Jerry Weiss]

On Jul 29, 2016, at 8:30 PM, Zane Healy <heal...@aracnet.com> wrote:
> 
> 
>> On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.tayl...@comcast.net> wrote:
>> 
>> I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis.  I has a TK50, 
>> RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA.  I'd like to get it running an OS.
>> 
>> The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that 
>> might come in handy.
>> 
>> Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration?  
>> Anyone have experience with this?
>> 
>> What OS's can I use with this hardware?  NetBSD?  Are versions of VMS 
>> available?  How do you get an OS onto this system?
> 
> The all around best choice would be VAX/VMS v5.5-2.  You can get Hobbyist 
> licenses.  The OS was available as part of the Hobbyist program.  If you add 
> a SCSI adapter, you can hopefully attach a CD.  IIRC, it will run up to 
> either v7.2 or 7.3, at least I know I had v7.2 on a MicroVAX III (well, 
> technically I still do, if it will boot).
> 
> Ultrix would also be available.
> 
> What I did though was I gave it a brain transplant, and converted mine to a 
> PDP-11 once I got a better VAX.
> 
> I need to invest in a couple of those SD adapters myself.  I’d really like to 
> put one on one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233’s.  Hopefully they’ll still work. 
>  It’s been years since I’ve done anything with my DEC HW. :-(
> 

I have booted both V7.3 and V5.5-2  off a 4GB SD with SCSI2SD V4.6 on a 
MicroVax II with 16 Mb. Note that DEQNA will not work (at all) on either 
version.  You’ll need a DELQA.

You should be able to build a system with an emulator and then copy the binary 
to an SD card. i’ve taken images both ways without problems.   Alternately if 
you get a DELQA, you can netboot off of another Vaxen and build an bootable 
disk that way.

Jerry

Re: MicroVax II

[Mouse]

> I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis.  I has a
> TK50, RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA.  I'd like to get it running an OS.

> The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers
> that might come in handy.

Ooh, those are (my impression!) substantially rarer than DEQNAs.  (I
know _I_'d cheerfully swap a DEQNA for Qbus SCSI.)

> What OS's can I use with this hardware?  NetBSD?

Yes.  Recent (and some not-so-recent) versions are broken, in that they
can't self-host; as far as I know nobody knows exactly what's wrong.
My impression (as someone who hasn't tried it, but who has seen it
discussed on port-vax) is that something breaks somewhere in the
compiler when running native.

You may also find recent(ish) versions are too resource-hungry; the
MicroVAX-II can't have more than 16M RAM, which is pretty tiny by
modern NetBSD's standards (pretty much ever since they relegated most
ports to second-class, er, sorry, "organic" status).

Fortunately, older NetBSD is still available; I think it's even
available from netbsd.org.  I don't have any VAXen up at the moment
(I'm more constrained than historically usual about how many computers
I have live or almost-live), or I'd offer to build you a tarball; I can
do that anyway, but I won't be in a position to test whether it
actually works, that it may be suboptimal.

> Are versions of VMS available?

I imagine so, but I don't actually know, since I haven't gone looking
for any.  (I have fond memories of my VMS days, but as long as it
remains closed-source, I'm not running it.)

> How do you get an OS onto this system?

Same way you would any other system.  In your case, I see four options:
tapes, floppies (I think the RX50 is a floppy drive?), netboot (if you
can find a network for the thing), and putting the disk on another
machine and plopping the install on it there.  Personally, I'd be
installing NetBSD, and I'd probably dig out a spare DEQNA, netboot,
then install onto local disk from the netbooted system.  In extremis, I
might download a grappling-hook program via memory binary deposit
commands, then ship stuff over the console serial line.  This would
work, but would be slow; I think the fastest the console serial can run
is 19200, or maybe 38400.

/~\ The ASCII Mouse
\ / Ribbon Campaign
 X  Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org
/ \ Email!   7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39  4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B

Re: MicroVax II

[Toby Thain]

On 2016-07-29 9:08 PM, Douglas Taylor wrote:

I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis.  I has a TK50,
RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA.  I'd like to get it running an OS.

The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers
that might come in handy.

Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration?
Anyone have experience with this?

What OS's can I use with this hardware?  NetBSD?  Are versions of VMS
available?  How do you get an OS onto this system?





NetBSD is an option. The most recent version I've run on a MicroVAX II 
(9MB) is 1.4.1, netbooted (couldn't find a netbootable distribution of 
anything more recent; also a 9MB machine might not run much more recent).


You probably want to chase down a DELQA.

--Toby

Re: MicroVax II

[Zane Healy]

> On Jul 29, 2016, at 6:08 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.tayl...@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis.  I has a TK50, RX50, 
> RXDQ2, but no DEQNA.  I'd like to get it running an OS.
> 
> The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers that 
> might come in handy.
> 
> Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration?  
> Anyone have experience with this?
> 
> What OS's can I use with this hardware?  NetBSD?  Are versions of VMS 
> available?  How do you get an OS onto this system?

The all around best choice would be VAX/VMS v5.5-2.  You can get Hobbyist 
licenses.  The OS was available as part of the Hobbyist program.  If you add a 
SCSI adapter, you can hopefully attach a CD.  IIRC, it will run up to either 
v7.2 or 7.3, at least I know I had v7.2 on a MicroVAX III (well, technically I 
still do, if it will boot).

Ultrix would also be available.

What I did though was I gave it a brain transplant, and converted mine to a 
PDP-11 once I got a better VAX.

I need to invest in a couple of those SD adapters myself.  I’d really like to 
put one on one of my AlphaStation 200 4/233’s.  Hopefully they’ll still work.  
It’s been years since I’ve done anything with my DEC HW. :-(

Zane

Re: MicroVax II

[Doug F]

Hi Doug,

I've used an SCSI2SD v5 in a Symbolics XL1201 as both CD-ROM and 1280-byte 
sector Hard Drive mode successfully. I don't know anything about a MicroVax II, 
but I would be happy to tell you what I know of the SCSI2SD. (I've actually put 
several in one computer simultaneously.)

Cheers,

Doug

> On Jul 29, 2016, at 9:08 PM, Douglas Taylor <dj.tayl...@comcast.net> wrote:
> 
> Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration?  
> Anyone have experience with this?

MicroVax II

[Douglas Taylor]

I just got a MicroVax II in the BA123 world box chassis.  I has a TK50, 
RX50, RXDQ2, but no DEQNA.  I'd like to get it running an OS.


The DU disks don't work, but I have a couple of Qbus SCSI controllers 
that might come in handy.


Can you use those SD to SCSI convertors in this type of configuration?  
Anyone have experience with this?


What OS's can I use with this hardware?  NetBSD?  Are versions of VMS 
available?  How do you get an OS onto this system?

RE: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II

[Robert Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson
> Sent: 05 December 2015 18:03
> To: gene...@classiccmp.org; discuss...@classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
> Topic Posts
> Subject: Re: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II
> 
> On 12/05/2015 09:51 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote:
> > I finally fixed my H7864 PSU so I can now run my rtVAX 1000. However,
> > I think the machine is damaging memory boards. I checked the ripple
> > and 5V looks OK, but 12V looks suspicious. Is the 12V supply used by the
> memory?
> I don't have my print set anymore, but I highly doubt it.  I think the +/-
12 V is
> only used by serial comm boards, and possibly by some graphics boards.  I
> would not be surprised if the regulation of the 12 V supplies is not very
> precise.
> 
> Jon

There seems to be a spike on the 12V supply, surely that isn't good, even if
it doesn't affect the memory?

Regards

Rob

Re: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II

[Jon Elson]

On 12/05/2015 09:51 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote:

I finally fixed my H7864 PSU so I can now run my rtVAX 1000. However, I
think the machine is damaging memory boards. I checked the ripple and 5V
looks OK, but 12V looks suspicious. Is the 12V supply used by the memory?
I don't have my print set anymore, but I highly doubt it.  I 
think the +/- 12 V is only used by serial comm boards, and 
possibly by some graphics boards.  I would not be surprised 
if the regulation of the 12 V supplies is not very precise.


Jon

Re: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II

[Jon Elson]

On 12/05/2015 12:29 PM, Robert Jarratt wrote:

-Original Message-
From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Jon Elson
Sent: 05 December 2015 18:03
To: gene...@classiccmp.org; discuss...@classiccmp.org:On-Topic and Off-
Topic Posts
Subject: Re: Memory Voltage on MicroVAX II

On 12/05/2015 09:51 AM, Robert Jarratt wrote:

I finally fixed my H7864 PSU so I can now run my rtVAX 1000. However,
I think the machine is damaging memory boards. I checked the ripple
and 5V looks OK, but 12V looks suspicious. Is the 12V supply used by the

memory?
I don't have my print set anymore, but I highly doubt it.  I think the +/-

12 V is

only used by serial comm boards, and possibly by some graphics boards.  I
would not be surprised if the regulation of the 12 V supplies is not very
precise.

Jon

There seems to be a spike on the 12V supply, surely that isn't good, even if
it doesn't affect the memory?


How BIG a spike?  In a lot of these power supplies, they 
don't regulate the "auxiliary" voltages.  So, whatever power 
is needed to be sent to the main voltage, the aux. windings 
just tap off some of that energy.  If the flux produces the 
right voltage on the +5V (with so many turns on that 
winding) then they put a few more turns on the 12 V 
windings, and assume it should track FAIRLY well.  But, 
maybe during the power-up surge, charging all the caps on 
the +5 network, the +12 might surge a bit.


I built my own power system on my uVAX-II system, and had 
separate supplies for +5 and +12 (mostly for the disk 
drives).  One day the 12 V supply went haywire, and I had 
inadvertently disabled the crowbar circuit.  It went up to 
22 V and damaged the disk drive and blew caps and the RS-232 
driver on the CPU board.  The disk drive worked for another 
week, and then totally croaked.  I ordered the parts for the 
serial transmitter and got it fixed fairly easily. (He he, 
glad I had that print set!)


So, I can say that if the spike gets close to 22 V, that 
would be real bad.


Jon