Re: Pdp-10 emulation

[SPC]

2016-03-03 22:24 GMT+01:00 Phil Budne :

> Noel wrote
> > Actually, as an operating system, ITS is far more interesting (virtual
> > devices, etc)
>
> There are "assigned numbers" for mit-ml-dev over UDP and TCP
> (ports 83 and 85)!
>
> I did find this:
> http://victor.se/bjorn/its/ch11.php
>
> Which simulates the CH11 (unibus) Chaosnet interface (presumably for
> the KS10 simulation) under KLH10 and encapsulates chaosnet traffic in
> UDP.
>
> And mentions the magic file names involved!
>

​Yeah. Great work. This is available long time ago. I'm happy to see it
online yet.

Kind Regards
Sergio Pedraja

Re: Pdp-10 emulation

[Phil Budne]

Noel wrote
> Actually, as an operating system, ITS is far more interesting (virtual
> devices, etc)

Yeah, ITS isn't user (spelled LUSER) friendly, but it sure is neat!
In the past week I was just wondering if anyone has ever written an
"MLDEV" handler for a non-ITS system.

"MLDEV" was the virtual device that made other ITS systems look like
devices (AI: MC: ML: DM:). When a device isn't recognized, ITS
launches a new process (job) connected to the "superior" job (I think
using a "JOBDEV" connection created using the JOB/BOJ pseudo-devices),
running an executable named "@", which looks for an executable (in the
DEVICE directory) that matches the user specified device, and runs
it...

There are "assigned numbers" for mit-ml-dev over UDP and TCP
(ports 83 and 85)!

I did find this:
http://victor.se/bjorn/its/ch11.php

Which simulates the CH11 (unibus) Chaosnet interface (presumably for
the KS10 simulation) under KLH10 and encapsulates chaosnet traffic in
UDP.

And mentions the magic file names involved!

Re: Pdp-10 emulation

[Noel Chiappa]

> From: Tedd Martin Vazquez

> After reading I believe using TOPS-20 I will have more to explore

Actually, as an operating system, ITS is far more interesting (virtual
devices, etc) - but it is indeed a pretty steep learning curve to start
using it. So I agree that TOPS-20 is the place to start.

Noel

Re: Pdp-10 emulation

[Tedd Martin Vazquez]

Ian S. King:
> On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Robert Jarratt 
> wrote:
> 
>>>
>>> Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial:
>>> http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html
>>>
>>> Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just not
>>> getting how it works?
>>>
>>> Thank you¡
>>
>>
>> I know nothing at all about ITS, and would follow Rich's guidance on this.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> Rob
>>
>>
> I've installed ITS successfully in the past, using those notes, so it can
> be done (unless something's changed).  However, ITS is a somewhat odd beast
> - its user shell is the debugger, for example.  I think suggestions that
> you start with TOPS-20 are good advice.  It will feel much more familiar,
> especially if you've used something like RSX-11 or VMS.  -- Ian
> 

I'm going to say that I'm really new, so I thought ITS will have more
information and software, specially because of the importance for Emacs
and the GNU project, reading the answers by Rich I think using TOPS will
be a lot better; I want to see what can I code and if there are more
people who knows about TOPS-20, definitely that's what I want.

Thank you very much to everyone who helped me :)

Tedd

-- 
 -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
Version: 3.1
GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s: a?
C>$
UBLC()>$ P+>+$ L>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+ w---() !O !M !V
PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b>$ DI++(+++)
D+ G++ e* h* !r z?
--END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

Re: Pdp-10 emulation

[Tedd Martin Vazquez]

Rich Alderson:
> From: Tedd Martin Vazquez
> Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 1:50 PM
> 
 Hi people¡ I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get
 around with the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine
 and the ancestor of the GNU project, so is quite charming.
> 
 I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my
 life that I get in touch with something related to old computing.
> 
 I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess
 around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly,
 how to get this software running in the emulator.
> 
>> Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial:
>> http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html
> 
>> Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just
>> not getting how it works?
> 
> OK.  If you followed those instructions, you *have* installed ITS.


After reading I believe using TOPS-20 I will have more to explore, and
seems more easy to understand, specially to someone really new to this.

> The minimal system created by following that set of instructions is just
> enough to have something on which to install other software, such as
> TECO.  There is nothing there yet which is particularly useful to a
> beginner on ITS.
> 
> When I mentioned earlier that finding installation files for ITS was
> more difficult now than it was 10 years ago, that's what I was talking
> about.  The old archives have been taken offline, have been offline for
> years, and are unlikely ever to come back.  There were a lot of files
> containing personal data that was fine in the days of the ARPANET
> (before the Internet came along), but which very few would care to have
> brought to the light of day now.
> 
> I don't want to rain on your parade.  ITS is a lot of fun to hack at.
> It just isn't easy to find anything to do on it any more.
> 
> Rich

Thank you very much for the information about TOPS, you really helped
me, I will try to understand the basics and then I'll see using ITS.

For everyone your answers really helped me, thank you very much.

Tedd.

-- 
 -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
Version: 3.1
GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s: a?
C>$
UBLC()>$ P+>+$ L>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+ w---() !O !M !V
PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b>$ DI++(+++)
D+ G++ e* h* !r z?
--END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

RE: Pdp-10 emulation

[Rich Alderson]

From: Tedd Martin Vazquez
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 1:50 PM

>>> Hi people¡ I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get
>>> around with the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine
>>> and the ancestor of the GNU project, so is quite charming.

>>> I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my
>>> life that I get in touch with something related to old computing.

>>> I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess
>>> around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly,
>>> how to get this software running in the emulator.

> Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial:
> http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html

> Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just
> not getting how it works?

OK.  If you followed those instructions, you *have* installed ITS.

The minimal system created by following that set of instructions is just
enough to have something on which to install other software, such as
TECO.  There is nothing there yet which is particularly useful to a
beginner on ITS.

When I mentioned earlier that finding installation files for ITS was
more difficult now than it was 10 years ago, that's what I was talking
about.  The old archives have been taken offline, have been offline for
years, and are unlikely ever to come back.  There were a lot of files
containing personal data that was fine in the days of the ARPANET
(before the Internet came along), but which very few would care to have
brought to the light of day now.

I don't want to rain on your parade.  ITS is a lot of fun to hack at.
It just isn't easy to find anything to do on it any more.

Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:ri...@livingcomputermuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

Re: Pdp-10 emulation

[Ian S. King]

On Wed, Mar 2, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Robert Jarratt 
wrote:

> >
> > Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial:
> > http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html
> >
> > Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just not
> > getting how it works?
> >
> > Thank you¡
>
>
> I know nothing at all about ITS, and would follow Rich's guidance on this.
>
> Regards
>
> Rob
>
>
I've installed ITS successfully in the past, using those notes, so it can
be done (unless something's changed).  However, ITS is a somewhat odd beast
- its user shell is the debugger, for example.  I think suggestions that
you start with TOPS-20 are good advice.  It will feel much more familiar,
especially if you've used something like RSX-11 or VMS.  -- Ian

-- 
Ian S. King, MSIS, MSCS, Ph.D. Candidate
The Information School 
Dissertation: "Why the Conversation Mattered: Constructing a Sociotechnical
Narrative Through a Design Lens

Archivist, Voices From the Rwanda Tribunal 
Value Sensitive Design Research Lab 

University of Washington

There is an old Vulcan saying: "Only Nixon could go to China."

RE: Pdp-10 emulation

[Robert Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tedd
> Martin Vazquez
> Sent: 02 March 2016 21:50
> To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts
> <cctalk@classiccmp.org>
> Subject: Re: Pdp-10 emulation
> 
> Robert Jarratt:
> >
> >
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tedd
> >> Martin Vazquez
> >> Sent: 02 March 2016 19:36
> >> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> >> Subject: Pdp-10 emulation
> >>
> >> Hi people¡ I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get
> >> around with the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine
> >> and the ancestor of the GNU project, so is quite charming.
> >>
> >> I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my life
> >> that I get in touch with something related to old computing.
> >>
> >> I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess
> >> around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly,
> >> how to get this software running in the emulator.
> >>
> >> I've been searching about the software and it's quite easy to get.
> >>
> >> Hope my question doesn't bother people, thanks :) Tedd Vazquez.
> >>
> >> --
> >>  -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
> >> Version: 3.1
> >> GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@
> s:
> >> a?
> >> C>$
> >> UBLC()>$ P+>+$ L>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+ w---() !O
> !M
> >> !V
> >> PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b>$
> >> DI++(+++)
> >> D+ G++ e* h* !r z?
> >> --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--
> >
> > I can't remember how you install the OS, but the virtual tapes with
> software are here: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/
> >
> > Regards
> >
> > Rob
> >
> >
> 
> Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial:
> http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html
> 
> Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just not
> getting how it works?
> 
> Thank you¡
> 
> --
>  -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
> Version: 3.1
> GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s:
> a?
> C>$
> UBLC()>$ P+>+$ L>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+ w---() !O !M
> !V
> PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b>$
> DI++(+++)
> D+ G++ e* h* !r z?
> --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

I know nothing at all about ITS, and would follow Rich's guidance on this.

Regards

Rob

RE: Pdp-10 emulation

[Rich Alderson]

From: Robert Jarratt
Sent: Wednesday, March 02, 2016 1:02 PM

> From: Tedd Martin Vazquez
> Sent: 02 March 2016 19:36

>> Hi people¡ I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get
>> around with the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine
>> and the ancestor of the GNU project, so is quite charming.

>> I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my life
>> that I get in touch with something related to old computing.

>> I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess
>> around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly, how to
>> get this software running in the emulator.

> I can't remember how you install the OS, but the virtual tapes with
> software are here: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/ 

Specifically, you want the following tapes:

BB-D867E-BM  TOPS-20 V4.1 2020 INSTL
BB-D868E-BM  T-20 V4.1 2020 DIST 1/2
BB-V895A-BM  T-20 V4.1 2020 DIST 2/2

You also want to pick up the Software Installation Guide from
Bitsavers.org.  It's the only file in the following directory:

http://bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/pdp10/TOPS-20/V4.1_Feb83/ 

If you want real EMACS and the associated TECO, that's also available at
Trailing Edge.

Do not accept shortcuts.  Read the manual, then worry about attaching
the tape images to SimH.

TOPS-20 v4.1 is the last to run on the KS-10 (which is the only member
of the PDP-10 family that SimH emulates), so don't bother with any later
versions.

NB: You can also get Tops-10, but it's not nearly as much fun as
TOPS-20.  ITS used to be more readily available, but it's hard to get
hold of these days and you really need to know how the architecture
works before diving into it.

Rich


Rich Alderson
Vintage Computing Sr. Systems Engineer
Living Computer Museum
2245 1st Avenue S
Seattle, WA 98134

mailto:ri...@livingcomputermuseum.org

http://www.LivingComputerMuseum.org/

Re: Pdp-10 emulation

[Tedd Martin Vazquez]

Robert Jarratt:
> 
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tedd
>> Martin Vazquez
>> Sent: 02 March 2016 19:36
>> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
>> Subject: Pdp-10 emulation
>>
>> Hi people¡ I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get around with
>> the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine and the ancestor of
>> the GNU project, so is quite charming.
>>
>> I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my life that I 
>> get in
>> touch with something related to old computing.
>>
>> I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess
>> around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly, how to
>> get this software running in the emulator.
>>
>> I've been searching about the software and it's quite easy to get.
>>
>> Hope my question doesn't bother people,
>> thanks :)
>> Tedd Vazquez.
>>
>> --
>>  -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
>> Version: 3.1
>> GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s:
>> a?
>> C>$
>> UBLC()>$ P+>+$ L>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+ w---() !O !M
>> !V
>> PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b>$
>> DI++(+++)
>> D+ G++ e* h* !r z?
>> --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--
> 
> I can't remember how you install the OS, but the virtual tapes with software 
> are here: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/
> 
> Regards
> 
> Rob
> 
> 

Hi, I'm trying to install ITS using this tutorial:
http://www.cosmic.com/u/mirian/its/itsbuild.html

Once I got it, how do I run the software inside the OS? Or I'm just not
getting how it works?

Thank you¡

-- 
 -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
Version: 3.1
GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s: a?
C>$
UBLC()>$ P+>+$ L>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+ w---() !O !M !V
PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b>$ DI++(+++)
D+ G++ e* h* !r z?
--END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

RE: Pdp-10 emulation

[Robert Jarratt]

> -Original Message-
> From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Tedd
> Martin Vazquez
> Sent: 02 March 2016 19:36
> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org
> Subject: Pdp-10 emulation
> 
> Hi people¡ I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get around with
> the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine and the ancestor of
> the GNU project, so is quite charming.
> 
> I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my life that I 
> get in
> touch with something related to old computing.
> 
> I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess
> around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly, how to
> get this software running in the emulator.
> 
> I've been searching about the software and it's quite easy to get.
> 
> Hope my question doesn't bother people,
> thanks :)
> Tedd Vazquez.
> 
> --
>  -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
> Version: 3.1
> GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s:
> a?
> C>$
> UBLC()>$ P+>+$ L>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+ w---() !O !M
> !V
> PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b>$
> DI++(+++)
> D+ G++ e* h* !r z?
> --END GEEK CODE BLOCK--

I can't remember how you install the OS, but the virtual tapes with software 
are here: http://pdp-10.trailing-edge.com/

Regards

Rob

Pdp-10 emulation

[Tedd Martin Vazquez]

Hi people¡ I've installed SIMH on my computer and I want to get around
with the emulator for the pdp-10; it was a beautiful machine and the
ancestor of the GNU project, so is quite charming.

I have no idea on how to begin using it. Is the first time in my life
that I get in touch with something related to old computing.

I want to know where I can get software, TECO and adventure to mess
around (because of the importance of both); and, very importantly, how
to get this software running in the emulator.

I've been searching about the software and it's quite easy to get.

Hope my question doesn't bother people,
thanks :)
Tedd Vazquez.

-- 
 -BEGIN GEEK CODE BLOCK-
Version: 3.1
GC/CS/CM/CC/E/ED/FA/H/IT/LS/L/MC/M/MU/PA/P/S/SS/TW/AT d--(-)@ s: a?
C>$
UBLC()>$ P+>+$ L>$ E+++>$ W+++>$ N+ !o K+ w---() !O !M !V
PS++(+++) PE+++ Y+(++) PGP+(++) t+(++) !5 X+(++) R tv+ b>$ DI++(+++)
D+ G++ e* h* !r z?
--END GEEK CODE BLOCK--