RE: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
It fails DMARC verification. AOL has published. Google knows the original sender was an AOL.COM address. It faILS. Dave > -Original Message- > From: cctalk [mailto:cctalk-boun...@classiccmp.org] On Behalf Of Peter > Coghlan > Sent: 01 February 2017 10:36 > To: General Discussion: On-Topic and Off-Topic Posts > > Subject: Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm > 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5] > > > > > It's COURYHOUSE[sic]'s fault. His email setup doesn't comply with best > > practices and so Gmail and other mail systems reject messages from him. > > > > What you say may be true but I do not believe this is the root of the problem. > (I also find it hard to see how you know whether Gmail and other mail > systems reject messages from him unless he told you this. There is a big > difference between "messages from him" and "messages posted by him to a > mailing list".) > > > > > Ask him to fix his email setup. I think it's because he is essentially > > spoofing the from address and using a different SMTP relay? I don't > > remember. > > > > By the time Gmail gets to see postings to the mailing list, they are coming > from the cctech mailing list server, not from an AOL mailserver or my > mailserver or anybody else's mailserver. If Gmail is noticing that mails > with an > AOL from address are coming from a non-AOL mailserver, they should be > noticing the same thing about all the other mails posted to the mailing list. > None of them (except maybe postings from Jay) are coming from the > mailservers associated with the from address - they are all from the cctech > mailing list server. > > Should Gmail should be regarding all cctech mailing list mails as having > spoofed from addresses because the from addresses are not in the > classiccmp.org domain? If not, why only some of them? > > Does Gmail have tech support that might explain exactly why they are > bouncing mailing list emails for you when other mailing list subscribers are > able to receive them with no problems? > > I guess when you use a free mail service like Gmail, you get to put up with > whatever way they want to do things and they feel they are not under any > obligation to tell you what they are doing in any great detail or to justify > it > other than to say "we think it works great". > > Regards, > Peter Coghlan
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
>>> Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been >>> reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten >>> years. >> Bounces aren't caused by the mailing list, they're caused by the >> destination mail server. Depends on how you view `cause'. My own mailserver is one what I believe must be a very few that will reject mail for, for exmaple, being marked as containing 8859-1 text but including octets like 0x92 which do not occur in 8859-1 text. Yet such bounces are actually caused by the composing MUA's nonconformance, with every intermediate mailhost that handled the mail complicit by acquiescence; my mailserver causes the bounce only in the immediate sense of being the one that blows the whistle and throws down the red flag, the one that flags the offence for what it is. > What I've been wondering for a while is the span of time over which > the bounces are counted. I haven't read the code for that logic in any mailing list manager (or at least if I have I don't recall). But... > I can understand shutting a subscriber off for getting 10 bounces in > as many minutes. On the other hand if those 10 bounces are spread > over two months, it seems rather severe. It depends. If those 10 bounces in as many minutes were for 10 consecutive messages, perhaps. If they were for 10 messages mixed randomly among 250 others that were delivered fine, it seems somewhat excessive to me. If I were writing such code, I would pay attention to not only count and time but also to non-bounced list traffic. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
a...@gnu.org (Alfred M. Szmidt) wrote: > > Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been > reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten > years. > I got "server failed" several times when I tried to look up the MX records for gnu.org. It seems to be working now though. Maybe this is a different problem or an issue at my end but if it isn't, this could be the reason your mailing list mail is getting bounced. Regards, Peter Coghlan.
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
> > It's COURYHOUSE[sic]'s fault. His email setup doesn't comply with best > practices and so Gmail and other mail systems reject messages from him. > What you say may be true but I do not believe this is the root of the problem. (I also find it hard to see how you know whether Gmail and other mail systems reject messages from him unless he told you this. There is a big difference between "messages from him" and "messages posted by him to a mailing list".) > > Ask him to fix his email setup. I think it's because he is essentially > spoofing the from address and using a different SMTP relay? I don't > remember. > By the time Gmail gets to see postings to the mailing list, they are coming from the cctech mailing list server, not from an AOL mailserver or my mailserver or anybody else's mailserver. If Gmail is noticing that mails with an AOL from address are coming from a non-AOL mailserver, they should be noticing the same thing about all the other mails posted to the mailing list. None of them (except maybe postings from Jay) are coming from the mailservers associated with the from address - they are all from the cctech mailing list server. Should Gmail should be regarding all cctech mailing list mails as having spoofed from addresses because the from addresses are not in the classiccmp.org domain? If not, why only some of them? Does Gmail have tech support that might explain exactly why they are bouncing mailing list emails for you when other mailing list subscribers are able to receive them with no problems? I guess when you use a free mail service like Gmail, you get to put up with whatever way they want to do things and they feel they are not under any obligation to tell you what they are doing in any great detail or to justify it other than to say "we think it works great". Regards, Peter Coghlan
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
On Jan 31, 2017 11:59 PM, "Kyle Owen" wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Brian L. Stuart > wrote: > > > > What I've been wondering for a while is the span of time over which > > the bounces are counted. I can understand shutting a subscriber off > > for getting 10 bounces in as many minutes. On the other hand if those > > 10 bounces are spread over two months, it seems rather severe. > > > > I agree. Seems like it's fixable: > https://www.esosoft.com/support/mailinglist/mailman/bounce.html > > Looks like you can play with the bounce score threshold and bounce score > reset interval. > > Wonder what the default is? > > Kyle The best thing to do is analyze the logs and calculate the best intervals, adjust to suit. You can change for example to stretch each bounce to take longer each time. There are also ways to turn off bouncing selectively, or respond dynamically based on how the receiving end reacts to the bounce. I have found watching for a few days works. Bill Bill Degnan twitter: billdeg vintagecomputer.net
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 10:50 PM, Brian L. Stuart wrote: > > What I've been wondering for a while is the span of time over which > the bounces are counted. I can understand shutting a subscriber off > for getting 10 bounces in as many minutes. On the other hand if those > 10 bounces are spread over two months, it seems rather severe. > I agree. Seems like it's fixable: https://www.esosoft.com/support/mailinglist/mailman/bounce.html Looks like you can play with the bounce score threshold and bounce score reset interval. Wonder what the default is? Kyle
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
On Tue, 1/31/17, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: >> Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been >> reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten >> years. > > Bounces aren't caused by the mailing list, they're caused by the > destination mail server. What I've been wondering for a while is the span of time over which the bounces are counted. I can understand shutting a subscriber off for getting 10 bounces in as many minutes. On the other hand if those 10 bounces are spread over two months, it seems rather severe. BLS
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
On Jan 31, 2017, at 6:30 PM, Mouse wrote: > >>> (Speaking of best practices, you're generating paragraph-length >>> lines; you might want to read RFC 3676.) >> Thatâ??s up to the receiving MUA to deal with, not the sending one. > > If you think that, you _really_ need to read 3676. Nope. Just because you refuse to believe in a world beyond the teletype doesn’t mean one doesn’t exist. The RFC you cite even admits that; the recommendation for 78-character lines is not a MUST in any case. I’m actually a little surprised you’re citing such a recent RFC, honestly, rather than something from the early 1990s. Also, in case you weren’t aware, just like an Internet-Draft isn’t an RFC, an RFC isn’t a standard. This one is a proposed standard, but it’s been one for over a decade now, so I wouldn’t hold my breath on it. -- Chris -- who was a user of the email system where the creators of MIME developed their ideas
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
>> (Speaking of best practices, you're generating paragraph-length >> lines; you might want to read RFC 3676.) > Thatâ??s up to the receiving MUA to deal with, not the sending one. If you think that, you _really_ need to read 3676. /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
On Jan 31, 2017, at 2:04 PM, Mouse wrote: > > (Speaking of best practices, you're generating paragraph-length lines; > you might want to read RFC 3676.) That’s up to the receiving MUA to deal with, not the sending one. -- Chris
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
> I'm on comcast.net and I get these too. Once a week or so on average. The $ (Speaking of best practices, you're generating paragraph-length lines; you might want to read RFC 3676.) You most likely wouldn't notice unless the bounce traffic got bad enough to trip some list's auto-suspend test. Perhaps the other lists are set less sensitive, or perhaps classiccmp carries more traffic that gets rejected. (The latter strikes me as more probable; I'd hazard a guess that this list holds an usually high proportion of people with unusual mail setups.) I've configured my mailer to silently drop mail that it would normally bounce, when it's mail from either of the lists I'm on that prefer that. This is one of them. Maybe you should do likewise? (If your mail is outsourced - it's not clear to me whether "I'm on comcast.net" means you outsource your mail to them or you just get connectivity through them - and they aren't willing to do that for you, I guess it's find a better mailhost to outsource to, stop outsourcing it, or give up on that idea.) /~\ The ASCII Mouse \ / Ribbon Campaign X Against HTMLmo...@rodents-montreal.org / \ Email! 7D C8 61 52 5D E7 2D 39 4E F1 31 3E E8 B3 27 4B
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
> On Jan 31, 2017, at 4:54 PM, Sean Conner wrote: > > It was thus said that the Great Kyle Owen once stated: >> On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Paul Koning wrote: >> >>> >>> I'm on comcast.net and I get these too. Once a week or so on average. >>> The puzzle is that cctalk is the ONLY list that does this. I subscribe to >>> a whole pile of them, and as far as I know they all complain about bounces, >>> but none of the others are actually getting bounces. >>> >> >> I also get them, and this is also the only Mailman list that issues them >> that I'm subscribed to. Quite puzzling for sure. >> >> In case there is a time correlation to this issue, these are the dates I've >> received them: >> 21 Oct. 2016 >> 7 Nov. 2016 >> 23 Nov. 2016 >> 29 Nov. 2016 >> 30 Dec. 2016 >> 10 Jan. 2017 >> 14 Jan. 2017 > > This mailing list is unique in that it's actually two, cctalk and cctech. > Messages sent to cctech are also copied to cctalk. So some messages get > "crossposted" to both lists (with the same Message-ID). Could that might > have something to do with this? In my case, probably not. I always remove the extraneous to:cctech when replying, and only subscribe to cctalk. paul
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 13:13 william degnan wrote: > it's not 1999 anymore. Hey, I can dream, can't I!? LispMs and VAX 11/750s all over, and cheap! > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.fin...@gmail.com
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
It was thus said that the Great Kyle Owen once stated: > On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > > > > I'm on comcast.net and I get these too. Once a week or so on average. > > The puzzle is that cctalk is the ONLY list that does this. I subscribe to > > a whole pile of them, and as far as I know they all complain about bounces, > > but none of the others are actually getting bounces. > > > > I also get them, and this is also the only Mailman list that issues them > that I'm subscribed to. Quite puzzling for sure. > > In case there is a time correlation to this issue, these are the dates I've > received them: > 21 Oct. 2016 > 7 Nov. 2016 > 23 Nov. 2016 > 29 Nov. 2016 > 30 Dec. 2016 > 10 Jan. 2017 > 14 Jan. 2017 This mailing list is unique in that it's actually two, cctalk and cctech. Messages sent to cctech are also copied to cctalk. So some messages get "crossposted" to both lists (with the same Message-ID). Could that might have something to do with this? -spc
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:18 PM, Paul Koning wrote: > > I'm on comcast.net and I get these too. Once a week or so on average. > The puzzle is that cctalk is the ONLY list that does this. I subscribe to > a whole pile of them, and as far as I know they all complain about bounces, > but none of the others are actually getting bounces. > I also get them, and this is also the only Mailman list that issues them that I'm subscribed to. Quite puzzling for sure. In case there is a time correlation to this issue, these are the dates I've received them: 21 Oct. 2016 7 Nov. 2016 23 Nov. 2016 29 Nov. 2016 30 Dec. 2016 10 Jan. 2017 14 Jan. 2017 Kyle
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
> On Jan 31, 2017, at 4:13 PM, william degnan wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:59 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > >> It's COURYHOUSE[sic]'s fault. His email setup doesn't comply with best >> practices and so Gmail and other mail systems reject messages from him. >> ... > Not sure how you connect the dots to CoreyHouse being the cause of random > bounce issues ... I'm on comcast.net and I get these too. Once a week or so on average. The puzzle is that cctalk is the ONLY list that does this. I subscribe to a whole pile of them, and as far as I know they all complain about bounces, but none of the others are actually getting bounces. paul
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 3:59 PM, Ian Finder wrote: > It's COURYHOUSE[sic]'s fault. His email setup doesn't comply with best > practices and so Gmail and other mail systems reject messages from him. > > Ask him to fix his email setup. I think it's because he is essentially > spoofing the from address and using a different SMTP relay? I don't > remember. > > If it keeps up I may just leave. The SNR on this list is trending > negatively. > > > Not sure how you connect the dots to CoreyHouse being the cause of random bounce issues although yes his is one of the ones whose emails get caught in my spam folder and I never read them, but not the only one. Personally I'd fix that kind of thing, not to single ya out CoreyHouse, but don't you want people to get your messages? You can host the domain put up a PTR record, set up the DNS correctly if you want to do it privately there are many people here who can help.I hardly get any bounce alerts. Are there people who get them daily? A GNU mailman list is going to be prone to this kind of thing, it's not 1999 anymore. Bill
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
It's COURYHOUSE[sic]'s fault. His email setup doesn't comply with best practices and so Gmail and other mail systems reject messages from him. Ask him to fix his email setup. I think it's because he is essentially spoofing the from address and using a different SMTP relay? I don't remember. If it keeps up I may just leave. The SNR on this list is trending negatively. On Tuesday, January 31, 2017, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > What causes the mailing list to suspend people when their server has been sending bounces? That's default (and correct) behavior. >>> >>> >> I was hoping for more details. Is it a defense mechanism for the list so >> that email addresses that are no longer valid, even though they're still >> subscribed, don't keep bouncing at the server mercilessly? >> >> Essentially, yes. > > g. > > -- > Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 > http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. > http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. > Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. > > ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment > A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. > http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_! > -- Ian Finder (206) 395-MIPS ian.fin...@gmail.com
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Eric Christopherson wrote: What causes the mailing list to suspend people when their server has been sending bounces? That's default (and correct) behavior. I was hoping for more details. Is it a defense mechanism for the list so that email addresses that are no longer valid, even though they're still subscribed, don't keep bouncing at the server mercilessly? Essentially, yes. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:30 PM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Eric Christopherson wrote: > > On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:15 PM, geneb wrote: >> >> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: >>> >>> Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been >>> reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten years. These are a just the last bounces I got: Bounces aren't caused by the mailing list, they're caused by the >>> destination mail server. >>> >>> g. >>> >>> >> What causes the mailing list to suspend people when their server has been >> sending bounces? >> >> That's default (and correct) behavior. > I was hoping for more details. Is it a defense mechanism for the list so that email addresses that are no longer valid, even though they're still subscribed, don't keep bouncing at the server mercilessly?
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Eric Christopherson wrote: On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:15 PM, geneb wrote: On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten years. These are a just the last bounces I got: Bounces aren't caused by the mailing list, they're caused by the destination mail server. g. What causes the mailing list to suspend people when their server has been sending bounces? That's default (and correct) behavior. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:22 PM, Eric Christopherson < echristopher...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:15 PM, geneb wrote: > >> On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: >> >> Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been >>> reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten >>> years. >>> >>> These are a just the last bounces I got: >>> >>> Bounces aren't caused by the mailing list, they're caused by the >> destination mail server. >> >> g. >> > > What causes the mailing list to suspend people when their server has been > sending bounces? > Also: I wonder if the specific causes of Alfred's excessive-bounce suspension differs from the one that seems to cause mine -- usually when I get suspended it's just after a certain member posts to the list. Others have mentioned the same thing. But my suspension messages didn't come on the same days as Alfred's. Secondly: if anyone's familiar with the mutt mail client, does the "bounce" functionality (which is basically a resend of the message, with the original From: address) have *anything* to do with the sense of "bounce" we're discussing here? My suspicion is that it doesn't, but I've been wondering this for a long time. -- Eric Christopherson
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
On Tue, Jan 31, 2017 at 2:15 PM, geneb wrote: > On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: > > Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been >> reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten >> years. >> >> These are a just the last bounces I got: >> >> Bounces aren't caused by the mailing list, they're caused by the > destination mail server. > > g. > What causes the mailing list to suspend people when their server has been sending bounces?
Re: [cctalk-requ...@classiccmp.org: confirm 38290c8a992491eda604beff5a06ff20cd7e85f5]
On Tue, 31 Jan 2017, Alfred M. Szmidt wrote: Can someone please fix the mailing list software? This has been reported every once in a while by a bunch of people for over ten years. These are a just the last bounces I got: Bounces aren't caused by the mailing list, they're caused by the destination mail server. g. -- Proud owner of F-15C 80-0007 http://www.f15sim.com - The only one of its kind. http://www.diy-cockpits.org/coll - Go Collimated or Go Home. Some people collect things for a hobby. Geeks collect hobbies. ScarletDME - The red hot Data Management Environment A Multi-Value database for the masses, not the classes. http://scarlet.deltasoft.com - Get it _today_!
