Re: RL02 Spinup fails

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

> On Nov 11, 2017, at 2:42 PM, Aaron Jackson  wrote:
> 
>> Aaron,
>> 
>> Do not underestimate the need for termination, even with a very short 
>> external cable.
>> When you factor in the internal cables runs,  crosstalk or signal 
>> reflections which interfere
>> with operation may still be present, especially when data transfers start.
>> 
>> If you have access to another bootable drive (8inch floppy?), suggest you 
>> load the
>> XXDP+ diagnostics for RL Drives.
>> 
>> Jerry
> 
> Hi Jerry, thanks for the information.
> 
> I had built several terminators, but being terrible at geometry I always
> did something wrong. I have now fixed one of the terminators I built. I
> had pins 1 and 40 mixed up, the rest of the terminator is basically a
> mirror copy.
> 
> Unfortunately I still have the same error.
> 
> I have an RX02 drive but no controller yet, so I'll have to continue
> investigating in the dark.
> 
> Thanks,
> Aaron.

I too have had home built cables cause me grief because
of confusions around pins, keying or just being cable to properly fasten the
connectors. 



Could elaborate a bit on this part of your earlier message.

> I managed to boot into XXDP today using tu58em and ran the RLV12
> controller test. It seems though that the version of XXDP I loaded does
> not support the 22bit address (17774400) and defaults to the 16bit
> address (174400) so it just shows errors for everything.

VRLBCO expects 16 bit addresses for hardware setup.  Most of the 
XXDP diagnostic programs understand the 16 bit address for IO page
type devices.   

Separately, if this diagnostic itself is not able to use 22 bit memory 
on an 11/73 with 1MB ram, then you may have other issues.  It 
should not be tossing errors.  The fact that XXDP cannot boot
into extended addressing (XXDPXM) is not a good sign either.

Jerry

Re: RL02 Spinup fails

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

>>
> Could elaborate a bit on this part of your earlier message.
>
>> I managed to boot into XXDP today using tu58em and ran the RLV12
>> controller test. It seems though that the version of XXDP I loaded does
>> not support the 22bit address (17774400) and defaults to the 16bit
>> address (174400) so it just shows errors for everything.
>
> VRLBCO expects 16 bit addresses for hardware setup.  Most of the
> XXDP diagnostic programs understand the 16 bit address for IO page
> type devices.
>
> Separately, if this diagnostic itself is not able to use 22 bit memory
> on an 11/73 with 1MB ram, then you may have other issues.  It
> should not be tossing errors.  The fact that XXDP cannot boot
> into extended addressing (XXDPXM) is not a good sign either.

I can try - it's not throwing errors as such but the tests are
failing. For example, here is output for one of the tests.

] ROUTINE TRACE SEQ:
]  034314
]  017252
] INIT STATE TEST
] OPER: GET STAT
] RESULT:CNTLR HUNG
] BUS ADD=174400 DRV=0
]RLCSRLDARLBARLMP CYLHD
] OP INIT = 000104  03  00  0
] OP DONE = 00  00  00  0 000   1
]
] CZRL1 HDR ERR  10002 ON UNIT 00 TST 009 SUB 000 PC: 020074

It's saying the controller has hung, but address 174400 is just RAM so I
don't expect it to get anything interesting back.

Maybe telling a bit about the system will help. Here are the cards in
the order that I have them. There were originally more but I have
removed them as they are not necessary for getting RL02 drives working.

- M8192 CPU (PDP-11/73)
- M7185 Multifunction (boot, serial, 128K RAM)
- M8067-LA (512K RAM)
- M8067-LA (512K RAM)
- M8061 (RLV12 controller)

The M7185 has its own RAM. I'm not sure where this appears on the
system, there may even be some kind of conflict with the proceeding RAM
cards?  There is not much documentation online for this card. I have no
idea how to start the boot loader. A friend dumped the ROMs for me and I
compared them to someone elses dumps and they seemed okay. I've read
about people making a minor modification to this card to disable the
on-board RAM.

The RLV12 has its jumpers in the default configuration, so 22bit
addressing. I can query the controller's registers at
17774400..17774410. The CSR usually has something interesting in which I
can decode and it always makes sense, and matches the current drive
state, for example whether the pack is loaded or not on the least
significant bit.  I'm not sure what is going on with the MPR. I perform
a get status as described in Appendix C3 of the RL02 technical
manual. If I am decoding the contents correctly it says things like the
cover is open and that the drive type is an RL01. For example, at one
point the contents was 167:

 w h w s s w v d d h c h b s s s
 d c l k p g c s t s o o h t t t
 e e   t e e   e   c b a
 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 1 1 1 0 1 1 1

- ST A,B,C are status bits, being 1,1,1 means "Spin down"
- BH is brushes home, but I don't think this drive has brushes
- HO is heads out
- CO is cover open... the cover is closed unless it's referring to the
 logic cover.
- HS is head select. 1 indicates the lower head
- DT is drive type, 0 indicates RL01, but it is an RL02.
- DSE is drive select error
- VC is volume check
- WGE is write gate error
- SPE is spin error, either too slow or too fast
- SKT is seek time out
- WL is write lock, the status of the write lock button on the front
- HCE is head current error
- WDE write data error

So there seems to be something wrong somewhere but I have no idea where.

Thanks,

Aaron.

Re: RL02 Spinup fails

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

> Aaron,
>
> Do not underestimate the need for termination, even with a very short 
> external cable.
> When you factor in the internal cables runs,  crosstalk or signal reflections 
> which interfere
> with operation may still be present, especially when data transfers start.
>
> If you have access to another bootable drive (8inch floppy?), suggest you 
> load the
> XXDP+ diagnostics for RL Drives.
>
> Jerry

Hi Jerry, thanks for the information.

I had built several terminators, but being terrible at geometry I always
did something wrong. I have now fixed one of the terminators I built. I
had pins 1 and 40 mixed up, the rest of the terminator is basically a
mirror copy.

Unfortunately I still have the same error.

I have an RX02 drive but no controller yet, so I'll have to continue
investigating in the dark.

Thanks,
Aaron.

Re: RL02 Spinup fails

[Jerry Weiss via cctalk]

> On Nov 11, 2017, at 10:58 AM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk 
>  wrote:
> 
> ……...
> The RL02 technical manual says to figure out why a drive error occurred,
> I can execute a get status command (?) and then perform an MPR read
> (?). So while I don't know how to do that, the error could be one of the
> following (apparently)
> 
> - spin error. I assume it's not this because the ready light is on?
> - seek time out. Maybe this?
> - write lock. Only set when the drive is write protected.
> - current head error. Set when write current is detected while reading.
> - write data error. Set when no transitions are detected during writing.
> 
> So, pretty confused.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Aaron.
> ,
>> 
>>> Well, some progress.
>>> 
>>> It seems that a terminator is not required so long as the cable is VERY
>>> short. The controller RLV12 controller appears to have a few termination
>>> resistors on it anyway. There is no fault light appearing and the drives
>>> spin up fine. Mine cable is less than 20cm and the PDP is sitting just
>>> on top of the drive.
>>> 
>>> I can see that the drive is communicating because the lsb of the csr
>>> changes flips between 0 and 1 when I load and unload the drive.
>>> 
>>> I wanted to try and dump the disks using vtserver, but when I run the
>>> copy program I end up with the following
>>> 
>>> ]] Enter name of input record/device: rl(0,0,0)
>>> ]]
>>> ]] Can't get rl(0,0,0) sts
>>> ]] rl(0,0,0) err cy=0, hd=0, sc=2, rlcs=142205, rlmp=0
>>> ]] rl(0,0,0) error reading labelsector
>>> ]] Enter name of input record/device:
>>> 
>>> The same happened on both packs - they have both been cleaned and look
>>> as though they are in good condition. The heads have been cleaned too.
>>> 
>>> Given that the drive appears to be communicating with the PDP-11, where
>>> might this problem come from?
>>> 
>>> Thanks,
>>> 
>>> Aaron.
>>> 


Aaron,

Do not underestimate the need for termination, even with a very short external 
cable.
When you factor in the internal cables runs,  crosstalk or signal reflections 
which interfere 
with operation may still be present, especially when data transfers start.

If you have access to another bootable drive (8inch floppy?), suggest you load 
the
XXDP+ diagnostics for RL Drives.  

Jerry

Re: RL02 Spinup fails

[Noel Chiappa via cctalk]

> From: Aaron Jackson

> The RL02 technical manual says to figure out why a drive error
> occurred, I can execute a get status command (?) and then perform an
> MPR read (?). So while I don't know how to do that, 

RLV 12 User Guide, section 5.2. 

Noel

Re: RL02 Spinup fails

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

It sounds silly but I don't actually have access to a Windows machine,
but PD11GUI looks nice.

I managed to boot into XXDP today using tu58em and ran the RLV12
controller test. It seems though that the version of XXDP I loaded does
not support the 22bit address (17774400) and defaults to the 16bit
address (174400) so it just shows errors for everything.

VTserver does seem to default to the 22bit address, and I can tell this
because the error for vtserver (as included in my previous email) shows
the output of the CSR (142205). I've also checked this value manually
from ODT and it comes out the same after trying to read.

b 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 = o 142205

>From what I can tell, this decodes to, from right to left:

0 Drive ready, yes
1-3   Command function code (0,1,0 = get status)
4-5   Extended address bits. I don't know what this means.
6 Interrupt enable, no.
7 Controller ready, when this gets cleared it runs the cmd in 1-3.
8-9   Indicates the current drive. I've only one connected, hence 0.
10-13 Error Code (0,0,0,1 = operation incomplete)
14Drive Error, yes unfortunately.
15Composite Error, indicates one or more error bits are set.

The RL02 technical manual says to figure out why a drive error occurred,
I can execute a get status command (?) and then perform an MPR read
(?). So while I don't know how to do that, the error could be one of the
following (apparently)

- spin error. I assume it's not this because the ready light is on?
- seek time out. Maybe this?
- write lock. Only set when the drive is write protected.
- current head error. Set when write current is detected while reading.
- write data error. Set when no transitions are detected during writing.

So, pretty confused.

Thanks,

Aaron.










william degnan via cctech writes:

> I have successfully built a rl02  disk using pdpgui on a windows XP laptop,
> the newer version works on window 10.  All you need other than the software
> is a serial card like a m7800.  Pdpgui acts as a gui.  Do you have a m9312
> rom/terminator card with a terminal console rom?
>
> Bill Degnan
> twitter: billdeg
> vintagecomputer.net
> On Nov 11, 2017 7:04 AM, "Aaron Jackson via cctech" 
> wrote:
>
>> Well, some progress.
>>
>> It seems that a terminator is not required so long as the cable is VERY
>> short. The controller RLV12 controller appears to have a few termination
>> resistors on it anyway. There is no fault light appearing and the drives
>> spin up fine. Mine cable is less than 20cm and the PDP is sitting just
>> on top of the drive.
>>
>> I can see that the drive is communicating because the lsb of the csr
>> changes flips between 0 and 1 when I load and unload the drive.
>>
>> I wanted to try and dump the disks using vtserver, but when I run the
>> copy program I end up with the following
>>
>> ]] Enter name of input record/device: rl(0,0,0)
>> ]]
>> ]] Can't get rl(0,0,0) sts
>> ]] rl(0,0,0) err cy=0, hd=0, sc=2, rlcs=142205, rlmp=0
>> ]] rl(0,0,0) error reading labelsector
>> ]] Enter name of input record/device:
>>
>> The same happened on both packs - they have both been cleaned and look
>> as though they are in good condition. The heads have been cleaned too.
>>
>> Given that the drive appears to be communicating with the PDP-11, where
>> might this problem come from?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Aaron.
>>
>> Aaron Jackson via cctech writes:
>>
>> > Hi everyone,
>> >
>> > I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave
>> > Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I
>> > tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into
>> > board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the
>> > fault light turned off. So that's positive.
>> >
>> > I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and
>> > generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I
>> > could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light
>> > returns. I made a short video demonstrating this:
>> >
>> >  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U
>> >
>> > According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following
>> > reasons:
>> >
>> > - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start?
>> > - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first
>> > - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above
>> > - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start.
>> > - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far
>> > - Write data error... Same as above
>> > - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault?
>> >
>> > So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is
>> > slipping or something like that?
>> >
>> > Can anyone offer some advice?
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> > Aaron.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Aaron Jackson
>> PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham
>> http://aaronsplace.co.uk
>>


--

Re: RL02 Spinup fails

[william degnan via cctalk]

I have successfully built a rl02  disk using pdpgui on a windows XP laptop,
the newer version works on window 10.  All you need other than the software
is a serial card like a m7800.  Pdpgui acts as a gui.  Do you have a m9312
rom/terminator card with a terminal console rom?

Bill Degnan
twitter: billdeg
vintagecomputer.net
On Nov 11, 2017 7:04 AM, "Aaron Jackson via cctech" 
wrote:

> Well, some progress.
>
> It seems that a terminator is not required so long as the cable is VERY
> short. The controller RLV12 controller appears to have a few termination
> resistors on it anyway. There is no fault light appearing and the drives
> spin up fine. Mine cable is less than 20cm and the PDP is sitting just
> on top of the drive.
>
> I can see that the drive is communicating because the lsb of the csr
> changes flips between 0 and 1 when I load and unload the drive.
>
> I wanted to try and dump the disks using vtserver, but when I run the
> copy program I end up with the following
>
> ]] Enter name of input record/device: rl(0,0,0)
> ]]
> ]] Can't get rl(0,0,0) sts
> ]] rl(0,0,0) err cy=0, hd=0, sc=2, rlcs=142205, rlmp=0
> ]] rl(0,0,0) error reading labelsector
> ]] Enter name of input record/device:
>
> The same happened on both packs - they have both been cleaned and look
> as though they are in good condition. The heads have been cleaned too.
>
> Given that the drive appears to be communicating with the PDP-11, where
> might this problem come from?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aaron.
>
> Aaron Jackson via cctech writes:
>
> > Hi everyone,
> >
> > I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave
> > Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I
> > tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into
> > board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the
> > fault light turned off. So that's positive.
> >
> > I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and
> > generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I
> > could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light
> > returns. I made a short video demonstrating this:
> >
> >  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U
> >
> > According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following
> > reasons:
> >
> > - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start?
> > - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first
> > - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above
> > - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start.
> > - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far
> > - Write data error... Same as above
> > - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault?
> >
> > So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is
> > slipping or something like that?
> >
> > Can anyone offer some advice?
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> > Aaron.
>
>
> --
> Aaron Jackson
> PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham
> http://aaronsplace.co.uk
>

Re: RL02 Spinup fails

[Mark J. Blair via cctalk]

> On Nov 6, 2017, at 10:21, Aaron Jackson via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> I based my terminator off Mark
> Blair's RL02 to USB project:
> 
> https://github.com/NF6X/RL02-USB/blob/master/pcbs/RL02-USB-terminator/RL02-USB-terminator.pdf

Hi there! Just one warning: My project stalled after I ordered boards and lost 
inertia while waiting for them, and I have not yet put together the hardware. 
Thus, I can’t guarantee that my terminator design is correct yet. I’m glad that 
it has been deemed to be potentially useful even in its unfinished state, and I 
sure hope that I haven’t led anybody down the wrong path due to any errors that 
may be in the design. Good luck!

Re: RL02 Spinup fails

[David Collins via cctalk]

I’m more used to working on HP drives of this type but it sounds to me like you 
are getting a seek Time Out. It sounds like the motor spins up to speed  and 
the head load is being initiated. there should be a carriage unlock (I assume 
there’s a lock solenoid) and the carriage should start to move.  If the drive 
doesn’t sense movement of the carriage away from the home position after a 
certain time  (is there a carriage home optical sensor or micro switch to 
detect carriage home?) it could give a seek error, even before it gets near the 
disc. 

It could be that locking plate Henk mentioned , the lock solenoid not pulling 
in, or a problem with power getting to the actuator to drive the heads out. 

That’s how an HP drive does it anyway. 

David Collins


Sent from my iPad

> On 7 Nov 2017, at 7:41 am, Henk Gooijen via cctalk  
> wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Van: Aaron Jackson via cctalk
> Verzonden: maandag 6 november 2017 19:15
> Aan: cct...@classiccmp.org
> Onderwerp: RL02 Spinup fails
> 
> Hi everyone,
> 
> I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave
> Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I
> tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into
> board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the
> fault light turned off. So that's positive.
> 
> I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and
> generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I
> could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light
> returns. I made a short video demonstrating this:
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U
> 
> According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following
> reasons:
> 
> - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start?
> - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first
> - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above
> - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start.
> - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far
> - Write data error... Same as above
> - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault?
> 
> So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is
> slipping or something like that?
> 
> Can anyone offer some advice?
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Aaron.
> 
> I saw the video.
> It seems that the motor runs and the disk spins up.
> As Tony suggests, check the possible fault sources.
> One obvious fault: is the head still locked? That’s the small
> metal plate fixed with one screw in the top right corner (IIRC).
> 
> Long ago, I tried to run RK07 drives of the RK611 controller
> using a flat cable (not shielded), length 1 meter. The XXDP diags
> gave all sorts of errors that went away after I found the correct
> (shielded) cable BCxx.
> 
> You are correct, the fault light will go on immediately when the
> drive is no connected to the controller. I *think* READY should
> come up even when no terminator is installed.
> 
> One other possible fault. Are you sure the RL02 disk pack is OK?
> If it has been wiped with a magnet, it has become useless as a
> disk pack, but maybe useful for a “wall clock platter”. READY will
> never light up, and possibly there is a time out.
> Not sure you can *hear* the head (carriage) move though …
> 
> 

Re: RL02 Spinup fails

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

william degnan writes:

> On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctech <
> cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone,
>>
>> I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave
>> Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I
>> tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into
>> board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the
>> fault light turned off. So that's positive.
>>
>> I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and
>> generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I
>> could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light
>> returns. I made a short video demonstrating this:
>>
>>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U
>>
>> According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following
>> reasons:
>>
>> - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start?
>> - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first
>> - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above
>> - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start.
>> - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far
>> - Write data error... Same as above
>> - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault?
>>
>> So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is
>> slipping or something like that?
>>
>> Can anyone offer some advice?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Aaron.
>>
>
>
> At that point, for the time it takes the drive to be ready from a load
> should be about 15 seconds.For you the Fault light comes on instead.
> If I turn on my drives but leave the computer (11/40) off, the fault light
> comes on immediately.  If I then turn on the computer the fault light will
> turn off, although I may have to press load first and if so it will turn
> off after a few seconds.It's independent of the LOAD/READY lights
>
> based on this informal comparison I'd venture you have a drive issue.  I am
> not 100% sure what your termination situation is.  I have two drives, one
> terminated but it's with a DEC terminator on the bottom port of drive 1.
> The cable comes from the computer into drive 0.  I have a cable going from
> drive 0 port 1 to drive 1 port 1.
>
> Bill

The only thing I can think of with the terminator is that by using the
bulkhead connectors on the back you would end up with something like
this:


|--- logic board
  pdp11   rl02  |
[]--+
|
  terminator ---|

but I built my terminator directly onto the end of a ribbon cable, and I
realised that it is actually slightly different. More like this:


  pdp11
 +-+
 | |
  logicterminator
  board

I wouldn't thought it would matter but maybe timing is very sensitive. I
can imagine something like this causing an issue with 10base2 networking
for example.

Thanks for the information.

Aaron.

Re: RL02 Spinup fails

[william degnan via cctalk]

On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 12:43 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctech <
cct...@classiccmp.org> wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave
> Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I
> tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into
> board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the
> fault light turned off. So that's positive.
>
> I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and
> generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I
> could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light
> returns. I made a short video demonstrating this:
>
>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U
>
> According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following
> reasons:
>
> - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start?
> - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first
> - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above
> - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start.
> - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far
> - Write data error... Same as above
> - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault?
>
> So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is
> slipping or something like that?
>
> Can anyone offer some advice?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aaron.
>


At that point, for the time it takes the drive to be ready from a load
should be about 15 seconds.For you the Fault light comes on instead.
If I turn on my drives but leave the computer (11/40) off, the fault light
comes on immediately.  If I then turn on the computer the fault light will
turn off, although I may have to press load first and if so it will turn
off after a few seconds.It's independent of the LOAD/READY lights

based on this informal comparison I'd venture you have a drive issue.  I am
not 100% sure what your termination situation is.  I have two drives, one
terminated but it's with a DEC terminator on the bottom port of drive 1.
The cable comes from the computer into drive 0.  I have a cable going from
drive 0 port 1 to drive 1 port 1.

Bill

RE: RL02 Spinup fails

[Henk Gooijen via cctalk]

Van: Aaron Jackson via cctalk
Verzonden: maandag 6 november 2017 19:15
Aan: cct...@classiccmp.org
Onderwerp: RL02 Spinup fails

Hi everyone,

I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave
Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I
tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into
board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the
fault light turned off. So that's positive.

I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and
generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I
could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light
returns. I made a short video demonstrating this:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U

According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following
reasons:

- Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start?
- Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first
- Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above
- Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start.
- Write protect error... I don't think it got that far
- Write data error... Same as above
- Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault?

So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is
slipping or something like that?

Can anyone offer some advice?

Thanks,

Aaron.

I saw the video.
It seems that the motor runs and the disk spins up.
As Tony suggests, check the possible fault sources.
One obvious fault: is the head still locked? That’s the small
metal plate fixed with one screw in the top right corner (IIRC).

Long ago, I tried to run RK07 drives of the RK611 controller
using a flat cable (not shielded), length 1 meter. The XXDP diags
gave all sorts of errors that went away after I found the correct
(shielded) cable BCxx.

You are correct, the fault light will go on immediately when the
drive is no connected to the controller. I *think* READY should
come up even when no terminator is installed.

One other possible fault. Are you sure the RL02 disk pack is OK?
If it has been wiped with a magnet, it has become useless as a
disk pack, but maybe useful for a “wall clock platter”. READY will
never light up, and possibly there is a time out.
Not sure you can *hear* the head (carriage) move though …

Re: RL02 Spinup fails

[Aaron Jackson via cctalk]

This can probably be ignored. I since realised it's almost definitely an
issue with my terminator. Although, it doesn't matter how many times I
build a terminator, it won't work. I based my terminator off Mark
Blair's RL02 to USB project:

https://github.com/NF6X/RL02-USB/blob/master/pcbs/RL02-USB-terminator/RL02-USB-terminator.pdf

Aaron.

Aaron Jackson via cctalk writes:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave
> Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I
> tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into
> board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the
> fault light turned off. So that's positive.
>
> I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and
> generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I
> could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light
> returns. I made a short video demonstrating this:
>
>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U
>
> According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following
> reasons:
>
> - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start?
> - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first
> - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above
> - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start.
> - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far
> - Write data error... Same as above
> - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault?
>
> So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is
> slipping or something like that?
>
> Can anyone offer some advice?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Aaron.


--
Aaron Jackson
PhD Student, Computer Vision Laboratory, Uni of Nottingham
http://aaronsplace.co.uk

Re: RL02 Spinup fails

[Tony Duell via cctalk]

On Sun, Nov 5, 2017 at 5:43 PM, Aaron Jackson via cctalk
 wrote:
> Hi everyone,
>
> I have managed to hook up an RL02 drive to my PDP-11 (thanks to Dave
> Wade for the drives) . This took me longer than I thought it would - I
> tried with a flat ribbon cable with a DIY terminator going straight into
> board , but couldn't get it to work. Removed the terminator, and the
> fault light turned off. So that's positive.
>
> I tried to load a cartridge, which I had cleaned, inspected and
> generally appears to be in good condition. It started to spin up and I
> could hear it getting faster, but after 30-40 seconds the fault light
> returns. I made a short video demonstrating this:
>
>  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=japwBBodO8U
>
> According to the manual the fault light can appear for the following
> reasons:
>
> - Drive select error... Surely this would come on at the start?
> - Seek time out error... I'd have to hear the heads move first
> - Write current in heads during sector time error... Same as above
> - Loss of system clock... The fault light would be on from the start.
> - Write protect error... I don't think it got that far
> - Write data error... Same as above
> - Spin error... Is this the only remaining fault?
>
> So could the only cause be a spin error? I am wondering if the belt is
> slipping or something like that?
>
> Can anyone offer some advice?

It's been some time since I worked on one of these and I don't have
the printset to hand, but from what I remember the fault indicator
circuit is triggered by a (logically) many-input OR gate. Probably
a NAND in practice, which is why I said 'logically'. The inputs to
said gate come from the circuits that detect various faults.

What I do is to look at each of those inputs in turn and see what
is triggering the fault indicator. Then work back from there.

-tony